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[TEWR]

Caladrius: blood mage and elf slave trader
Devera: slave trader and a Quisling to her kind
Fenris: bitter and scarred ex-slave who has nothing good to say about his homeland
Danarius: blood mage, magister, demon summoner, child-killer, slaver, and according to Gaider, sexual abuser
Hadriana: blood mage, magister, slaver (she does hang out in a slave den), all around ****.
Varania: another Quisling to her kind, accepted the offer of magistership purely out of self-interest

The only two I'll dispute as being evil are Fenris and Varania. Fenris has nothing good to say mainly because he can't remember anything good about it. He can only remember the bad, and even then his memory is very skewed and biased towards blaming mages and magic for all of the evils he's endured.

I don't think Varania's evil for what she did. Selfish, maybe. But evil? I wouldn't classify her as such. Oh, and Orana is also a Tevinter. She's not evil.

There's also the slaver mage in the first Feynriel quest in Act 1. Along with the two named mages sitting outside the hospice assisting Caladrius.

Those 3 are definitely more evil Tevinters.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2012 - 07:19 .

[Cody]

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

And we've already been over this.  Bigotry isn't exactly a good enough reason for most of us to believe all mages want to go the way of Tevinter.  Kind of like how all Germans don't want to restart the **** party.  Turns out, people are more complex than just a few parts of their DNA.  I know, it's a crazy world, right?

All mages aren't evil.  But all Tevinters are.

At least, that's my conclusion from what we've seen so far.

Hard to say. I mean Tevinter is a huge place, the amount of Tevinters we have actually seen wouldn't even come anywhere near 1% of the mage population in Tevinter.

I mean don't get me wrong I can understand where your coming from and can see your point. Just saying.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Caladrius: blood mage and elf slave trader
Devera: slave trader and a Quisling to her kind
Fenris: bitter and scarred ex-slave who has nothing good to say about his homeland
Danarius: blood mage, magister, demon summoner, child-killer, slaver, and according to Gaider, sexual abuser
Hadriana: blood mage, magister, slaver (she does hang out in a slave den), all around ****.
Varania: another Quisling to her kind, accepted the offer of magistership purely out of self-interest

The only two I'll dispute as being evil are Fenris and Varania. Fenris has nothing good to say mainly because he can't remember anything good about it. He can only remember the bad, and even then his memory is very skewed and biased towards blaming mages and magic for all of the evils he's endured.

I don't think Varania's evil for what she did. Selfish, maybe. But evil? I wouldn't classify her as such. Oh, and Orana is also a Tevinter. She's not evil.

There's also the slaver mage in the first Feynriel quest in Act 1. Along with the two named mages sitting outside the hospice assisting Caladrius.

Those 3 are definitely more evil Tevinters.

I'll give you Orana, I'll omit Fenris, and I admit that my sample size is small, but that's still one out of eleven - less than a tenth of the Tevinters we meet are, in any way, benevolent. This is not a society worthy of being emulated.

[TEWR]

I'll give you Orana, I'll omit Fenris, and I admit that my sample size is small, but that's still one out of eleven - less than a tenth of the Tevinters we meet are, in any way, benevolent. This is not a society worthy of being emulated

No arguments there. At least not in societal practices like slavery and whatnot. But the fact that Tevinter hasn't fallen into dust due to Abominations and demons points to them doing something right, so it might be worthy of studying how their society works.

The real problem isn't so much that mages rule, but that the laws aren't enforced. Mages ruling isn't a bad thing. It's only when they rule and the laws regarding magic aren't enforced that it starts to become a bad thing.

[Rifneno]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'll give you Orana, I'll omit Fenris, and I admit that my sample size is small, but that's still one out of eleven - less than a tenth of the Tevinters we meet are, in any way, benevolent. This is not a society worthy of being emulated.

They're also pretty much all slavers.  We meet them because of their vested interest in the worst aspect of that society.  How do you think everyone's view of Orzammar would be if all we ever met were casteless thugs or casted dwarves who torment casteless for amusement?  Like that son of a genlock that broke that woman's knees and then forced her to kneel in feces until they were too riddled with infection to ever heal properly...  Or that lovely father who threw out his daughter, demanding that she abandon her baby in the Deep Roads?  Imagine if that kind of thing was all we saw of dwarven society.  Because that's what we've got to go on of Tevinter soceity.

[dragonflight288]

I want to see Tevinter, if only to get a better understanding on how everything works.

I believe Fenris more than I would some mage whose never been there, but I wouldn't trust everything Fenris says. He blames magic for all his problems, even ones he is responsible for. He is very biased against anything to do with magic and mages. He'll only talk about the negatives, and some of it may be exaggerated.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You have to remember that mages cannot, will not and will never be able to do any wrong. And would certainly never abuse a situation already vastly in their favor, to further own goals. If the mages were able to set the laws they should follow, they would truly and wholly make it so that the laws was truly best for all of mankind, and not just the mages. That is: The mage way.

No one has ever said that no mage can ever do anytihng wrong.  What's been said is that mages should be given the same opportunity to screw up as everyone else is BEFORE they get punished for it.  There is no evidence that a Chantry run circle is required to keep a population from being overrun by mind control and fireballs.  No evidence that the Dalish have been wiped from Thedas by abominations.  No evidence that all of Rivain is run by puppets of the blood mages.

The fact is that magic does not appear to be the scourge on humanity that the Chantry preaches.  Other cultures seem to be doing just fine without kidnapping mage children and treating them like criminals for life.

Given the number of instances of horror that arose due entirely to the current system:  Uldred's rebellion, Connor being kept from proper training due to the humiliation of his mother, etc. I would argue that Thedas would be safer without the hatred of magic that the Chantry spews.

Tevinter is hardly the only example of mages living free in society.  And while the Dalish are a bit prickly, it doesn't seem to be caused by their Keepers being mages.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'll give you Orana, I'll omit Fenris, and I admit that my sample size is small, but that's still one out of eleven - less than a tenth of the Tevinters we meet are, in any way, benevolent. This is not a society worthy of being emulated.

They're also pretty much all slavers.  We meet them because of their vested interest in the worst aspect of that society.  How do you think everyone's view of Orzammar would be if all we ever met were casteless thugs or casted dwarves who torment casteless for amusement?  Like that son of a genlock that broke that woman's knees and then forced her to kneel in feces until they were too riddled with infection to ever heal properly...  Or that lovely father who threw out his daughter, demanding that she abandon her baby in the Deep Roads?  Imagine if that kind of thing was all we saw of dwarven society.  Because that's what we've got to go on of Tevinter soceity.

How do we know Tevinter society isn't simply that cruel, bloody, and wantonly horrific? Given that we are actually introduced to several dwarves who recognize many of their cultural norms, rightly, as utter nonsense, it's not like we are given the impression that the people of Orzammar are all bloodthirsty thugs or slaves, or that the writers intend for us to view dwarves in that manner. But we are given that impression of Tevinter, and with every opportunity to show that, even in that most toxic society, someone will choose to act in a principled manner, instead, we are introduced to new levels of depravity that they will sink to.

I recognize there is a sampling bias, and once more Tevinters are show to deviate from current trends, I'll revise my opinion of them as a people and as a culture. But as of the present time, Tevinter society is simply the worst possible example of how to run a society. In fact, if a mage leader did the exact opposite of a magister at every juncture, they would be the greatest leader on the face of Thedas. That's how depraved these people are.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 23 février 2012 - 09:30 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, there was that one archon Fenris mentions who outlawed slavery. He was assassinated, but still, an example. And even making it into that spot is quite a feat.

[Wulfram]

Alarith, the shopkeeper in the Elven Alienage probably counts as not evil too, if I'm being fair.

So maybe it's just the humans who are always Chaotic Evil

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

Alarith, the shopkeeper in the Elven Alienage probably counts as not evil too, if I'm being fair.

So maybe it's just the humans who are always Chaotic Evil

Makes sense given how the Elves are treated over there.

[Xilizhra]

Wait, Alarith was Tevinter?

[TEWR]

Yea he says that he fled from there long ago if you talk to him in the CE Origin. I think it was alongside his family and when he was a kid, but I can't remember the details. Just that he admits he's from there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so elves?

No. Not like Elves. Not like Elves at all. Dalish are magocratic, and as such, their system is unacceptable to society. Not to mention that their system would be incoporable with actual society, since it is tribal in nature, and simple wouldn't be able to cope with the large number of Human mages.

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll give you Orana, I'll omit Fenris, and I admit that my sample size is small, but that's still one out of eleven - less than a tenth of the Tevinters we meet are, in any way, benevolent. This is not a society worthy of being emulated

No arguments there. At least not in societal practices like slavery and whatnot. But the fact that Tevinter hasn't fallen into dust due to Abominations and demons points to them doing something right, so it might be worthy of studying how their society works.

The real problem isn't so much that mages rule, but that the laws aren't enforced. Mages ruling isn't a bad thing. It's only when they rule and the laws regarding magic aren't enforced that it starts to become a bad thing.

Mages ruling IS a bad thing. It is exactly as bad as only nobles being allowed to rule. Some small percentage of the population should never be entitled to rule, simply due to birth. Not to mention that mages ruling are bad, since there is no room for natural societal change. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So the only possible example of blood magic being used successfully for mind control was used by someone trying to overthrow an evil tyrant? Intriguing.

Honestly, this whole thing makes me wonder if mage rule would be so bad. I mean, it's not like rule by nobles is any less arbitrary or biological, and mages are more resistant to mind control.

Indeed, it's amusing to see the extents some people will go to in order to paint mages as the villains. Even if a mage uses blood magic for the greater good, he's apparently still at fault for everything by virtue of using blood magic. 

I think some people are forgetting that the Wardens allow blood magic to be used, so the illegality of it doesn't apply to them. Granted, it's to be used against the Darkspawn, but citing the fact that blood magic is illegal in Chantry controlled lands is a pointless argument since the Wardens allow it.

Frankly, this is why I'm going to write my DAII fanfic with Tobias Hawke the Mage becoming Viscount, aftersiding with the mages come the endgame.

So it is okay to suppress the masses with Blood Magic, for the vaunted "greater good", but suppressing the poor damn mages, for the same goddamn reason, is so unbelievable evil, that all who does so deserves death? Yeah... That does not compute with any sort of reason or logic...
Point is: If it is okay to do one wrong in the name of the "greater good", then why isn't it okay to anohter? And what is the difference between the two? 

[Xilizhra]

No. Not like Elves. Not like Elves at all. Dalish are magocratic, and as such, their system is unacceptable to society. Not to mention that their system would be incoporable with actual society, since it is tribal in nature, and simple wouldn't be able to cope with the large number of Human mages.

You misunderstand, not to mention showing a fair bit of grievous anthropological ignorance ("actual society" my ass). I meant like elves are oppressed.

Mages ruling IS a bad thing. It is exactly as bad as only nobles being allowed to rule. Some small percentage of the population should never be entitled to rule, simply due to birth. Not to mention that mages ruling are bad, since there is no room for natural societal change.

My point being that all of Thedas' governments are bad, and this doesn't seem much worse.

So it is okay to suppress the masses with Blood Magic, for the vaunted "greater good", but suppressing the poor damn mages, for the same goddamn reason, is so unbelievable evil, that all who does so deserves death? Yeah... That does not compute with any sort of reason or logic...

They weren't "the masses," just a few nobles, and it wasn't a long-term societal thing, but a rebellion against an evil tyrant. The situations aren't comparable.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll give you Orana, I'll omit Fenris, and I admit that my sample size is small, but that's still one out of eleven - less than a tenth of the Tevinters we meet are, in any way, benevolent. This is not a society worthy of being emulated

No arguments there. At least not in societal practices like slavery and whatnot. But the fact that Tevinter hasn't fallen into dust due to Abominations and demons points to them doing something right, so it might be worthy of studying how their society works.

The real problem isn't so much that mages rule, but that the laws aren't enforced. Mages ruling isn't a bad thing. It's only when they rule and the laws regarding magic aren't enforced that it starts to become a bad thing.

Mages ruling IS a bad thing. It is exactly as bad as only nobles being allowed to rule. Some small percentage of the population should never be entitled to rule, simply due to birth. Not to mention that mages ruling are bad, since there is no room for natural societal change. 

It depends on how you define "mage rule." If a mage became a ruler in a system where the ruling elite were not exclusively magocrats, anti-blod magic laws were enforced, and magic itself was taught in a regulated setting, then I don't necessarily see a problem with a mage having some measure of political power.

What I would object to is the mages being a political bloc and forming a ruling class where leaders and political figures are selected exclusively from their ranks.

There's a difference between "mages can rule" and "mage rule." The first is about opportunity - a mage can obtain high office by the means set forth, with all due consideration to the law of the land. The second is about doctrine - only mages can rule. The first is more inclusive, the second is extremely exclusive, and there lies the problem.

[TEWR]

Mages ruling IS a bad thing. It is exactly as bad as only nobles being allowed to rule. Some small percentage of the population should never be entitled to rule, simply due to birth. Not to mention that mages ruling are bad, since there is no room for natural societal change.

I never said that mages should have an inherent right to rule by virtue of being mages. I just said that mages ruling isn't a bad thing.

So it is okay to suppress the masses with Blood Magic, for the vaunted "greater good", but suppressing the poor damn mages, for the same goddamn reason, is so unbelievable evil, that all who does so deserves death? Yeah... That does not compute with any sort of reason or logic...

The masses? Who are you talking about here, Tevinter? They claim that what they do is for the greater good, but in practice they don't ever do it. Whereas Avernus was actually using blood magic for the greater good.

not to set up Mages ruling nor to supress the masses. Just to depose a tyrant. He never controlled the minds of anyone, nor sacrificed innocents to further the rebellion's chances of success (His sacrifice of the Wardens happened after the battle -- and indeed the entire war -- was lost).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 février 2012 - 05:15 .

[dragonflight288]

I have long since stopped trying to debate Emperor. I respect his opinions and can even see his points on a few issues, but he has this little habit of picking and choosing small snippets of what we say and develop an entire argument based on a false narrative. Kind of like the elves thing, if we read the post right before it, we know it's talking about how the Chantry does nothing to stop the oppression of elves or the prejudice against them.

Emperor turned it into the Dalish have mages in charge so their entire leadership structure sucks and needs to be removed because of the magic involved. Had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the statement.

I can't have a genuine debate with a guy who ignores the points I make and chooses small details of things I say to develop their own argument that goes completely off topic in some cases. And tries to make it sound like I'm saying things that I'm not.

[Rifneno]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I recognize there is a sampling bias

No, I really don't think you do.

[CrimsonZephyr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have long since stopped trying to debate Emperor. I respect his opinions and can even see his points on a few issues, but he has this little habit of picking and choosing small snippets of what we say and develop an entire argument based on a false narrative. Kind of like the elves thing, if we read the post right before it, we know it's talking about how the Chantry does nothing to stop the oppression of elves or the prejudice against them.

Emperor turned it into the Dalish have mages in charge so their entire leadership structure sucks and needs to be removed because of the magic involved. Had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the statement.

I can't have a genuine debate with a guy who ignores the points I make and chooses small details of things I say to develop their own argument that goes completely off topic in some cases. And tries to make it sound like I'm saying things that I'm not.

Dalish society doesn't suck because they're ruled by magocrats, it sucks because they're nomads hated by the rest of the nations and likely confined to this role until they're either subjugated or driven into extinction. Seeing as might makes right in the world of geopolitics, a Dalish nation would be destroyed very quickly, as they do not follow the cultural or religious traditions of the rest of Thedas, which is serious business. Moreover, the other nations would have nothing to gain from the Dalish as an equal partner and everything to gain from them as subjugated subjects.

But Dalish life would be just as miserable if they were led by a hunter, instead of a mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have long since stopped trying to debate Emperor. I respect his opinions and can even see his points on a few issues, but he has this little habit of picking and choosing small snippets of what we say and develop an entire argument based on a false narrative. Kind of like the elves thing, if we read the post right before it, we know it's talking about how the Chantry does nothing to stop the oppression of elves or the prejudice against them.

Emperor turned it into the Dalish have mages in charge so their entire leadership structure sucks and needs to be removed because of the magic involved. Had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the statement.

I can't have a genuine debate with a guy who ignores the points I make and chooses small details of things I say to develop their own argument that goes completely off topic in some cases. And tries to make it sound like I'm saying things that I'm not.

To be fair, I had simply misunderstood what Xil was saying. And since english isn't my natural tongue, I am not as eloquent, and "actual society" was meant as "our society" or "the rest of Thedas' society" rather.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have long since stopped trying to debate Emperor. I respect his opinions and can even see his points on a few issues, but he has this little habit of picking and choosing small snippets of what we say and develop an entire argument based on a false narrative. Kind of like the elves thing, if we read the post right before it, we know it's talking about how the Chantry does nothing to stop the oppression of elves or the prejudice against them.

Emperor turned it into the Dalish have mages in charge so their entire leadership structure sucks and needs to be removed because of the magic involved. Had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the statement.

I can't have a genuine debate with a guy who ignores the points I make and chooses small details of things I say to develop their own argument that goes completely off topic in some cases. And tries to make it sound like I'm saying things that I'm not.

To be fair, I had simply misunderstood what Xil was saying. And since english isn't my natural tongue, I am not as eloquent, and "actual society" was meant as "our society" or "the rest of Thedas' society" rather.

You seem to do that a lot and to the benefit to your own arguments. Excuse me but i call this BS

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have long since stopped trying to debate Emperor. I respect his opinions and can even see his points on a few issues, but he has this little habit of picking and choosing small snippets of what we say and develop an entire argument based on a false narrative. Kind of like the elves thing, if we read the post right before it, we know it's talking about how the Chantry does nothing to stop the oppression of elves or the prejudice against them.

Emperor turned it into the Dalish have mages in charge so their entire leadership structure sucks and needs to be removed because of the magic involved. Had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the statement.

I can't have a genuine debate with a guy who ignores the points I make and chooses small details of things I say to develop their own argument that goes completely off topic in some cases. And tries to make it sound like I'm saying things that I'm not.

To be fair, I had simply misunderstood what Xil was saying. And since english isn't my natural tongue, I am not as eloquent, and "actual society" was meant as "our society" or "the rest of Thedas' society" rather.

You seem to do that a lot and to the benefit to your own arguments. Excuse me but i call this BS

....
....
I'm sorry.. What?

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And since english isn't my natural tongue,

Really? Kudos then, I'd have never guessed. Especially as English is a very difficult language to learn (or so I've heard).

Forgot to reply to this earlier when the thread jumped 2 pages while I was away...

Xilizhra wrote...

Love? I thought they were just in it for the sex, for the most part. I don't recall her faking romance.

Well I'm firmly of the belief that she was doing exactly that during DAO. There's a number of subtle hints that she was just being a seeker all along, most of which I can't remember, but the smoking gun for me was her wearing a seeker amulet when you meet her in DAO. Either she was already a seeker then and that was her being on a mission, or the writers want us to think she was. The only X factor is how the Chantry could've known to send her there. But it's entirely possible they have a seer like that statue in the Kinloch Hold (Ferelden Circle tower) basement. Or Flemeth may have had something to do with it, since she clearly knew what was going to happen long ahead of time (and actually warned Maric about it, albeit semi-vaguely).

But even if all that is wrong, I seriously doubt she never had a job that was more than a one night stand. The most telling is when she tells the Warden that the key to her job was to find out who her target's "perfect woman" was and to become her. You can change something superficial like hair color or style but maaaany elements of physical attraction aren't possible to alter. What if the person really liked legs and was into very tall woman? Can't "become" that. Maybe they have a "shameful" longing for elves. Can't become that either. The only way she could have meant it was something deeper. Finding out what kind of woman they like as a person and then pretending to have those personality attributes. And in order for that to matter, her mark would have to think there was something more than physical between them.

[Xilizhra]

I'm fairly sure the DAO romance was genuine; if it wasn't, she'd have no reason to mention the Warden was dear to her heart to the totally unrelated Hawke. As for the second paragraph... well, maybe. I can see how things would go in that direction, in any case. Though her repentance does seem to be genuine for that...