2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Cody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have long since stopped trying to debate Emperor. I respect his opinions and can even see his points on a few issues, but he has this little habit of picking and choosing small snippets of what we say and develop an entire argument based on a false narrative. Kind of like the elves thing, if we read the post right before it, we know it's talking about how the Chantry does nothing to stop the oppression of elves or the prejudice against them.

Emperor turned it into the Dalish have mages in charge so their entire leadership structure sucks and needs to be removed because of the magic involved. Had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the statement.

I can't have a genuine debate with a guy who ignores the points I make and chooses small details of things I say to develop their own argument that goes completely off topic in some cases. And tries to make it sound like I'm saying things that I'm not.

To be fair, I had simply misunderstood what Xil was saying. And since english isn't my natural tongue, I am not as eloquent, and "actual society" was meant as "our society" or "the rest of Thedas' society" rather.

Dude. I feel bad now for insulting you. You probably really did have a hard time I was saying due to English not being your first language. Sorry mate . 

Though I gotta say, your English is still pretty damn good, all things considered. I mean you were able to unintenionally fool us into thinking it WAS your first language afterall. Not bad mate. If I may ask, what is your first language? 

Modifié par CodyMelch, 24 février 2012 - 06:47 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm fairly sure the DAO romance was genuine; if it wasn't, she'd have no reason to mention the Warden was dear to her heart to the totally unrelated Hawke. As for the second paragraph... well, maybe. I can see how things would go in that direction, in any case. Though her repentance does seem to be genuine for that...

She's some kind of immortal!

Because I killed her at the Urn and she still showed up in DA2!!!!!!!

Never trust something that doesn't stay dead...

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 24 février 2012 - 06:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

CodyMelch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have long since stopped trying to debate Emperor. I respect his opinions and can even see his points on a few issues, but he has this little habit of picking and choosing small snippets of what we say and develop an entire argument based on a false narrative. Kind of like the elves thing, if we read the post right before it, we know it's talking about how the Chantry does nothing to stop the oppression of elves or the prejudice against them.

Emperor turned it into the Dalish have mages in charge so their entire leadership structure sucks and needs to be removed because of the magic involved. Had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the statement.

I can't have a genuine debate with a guy who ignores the points I make and chooses small details of things I say to develop their own argument that goes completely off topic in some cases. And tries to make it sound like I'm saying things that I'm not.

To be fair, I had simply misunderstood what Xil was saying. And since english isn't my natural tongue, I am not as eloquent, and "actual society" was meant as "our society" or "the rest of Thedas' society" rather.

Dude. I feel bad now for insulting you. You probably really did have a hard time I was saying due to English not being your first language. Sorry mate . 

Though I gotta say, your English is still pretty damn good, all things considered. I mean you were able to unintenionally fool us into thinking it WAS your first language afterall. Not bad mate. If I may ask, what is your first language? 

Its the internet, it lives on us insulting eachother for the slighest of things  I never take any of the stuff said on here personally, and I hope you don't either 

My first language would be either Danish or Russian (funny mixture, long story).

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

Well I'm firmly of the belief that she was doing exactly that during DAO. There's a number of subtle hints that she was just being a seeker all along, most of which I can't remember, but the smoking gun for me was her wearing a seeker amulet when you meet her in DAO. Either she was already a seeker then and that was her being on a mission, or the writers want us to think she was.

Leliana isn't a seeker at all.  Not even in the cameo at the end of DA2

https://twitter.com/...019473398939648
http://social.biowar...index/8836283/1

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 février 2012 - 09:06 .

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana isn't a seeker at all. Not even in the cameo at the end of DA2

https://twitter.com/...019473398939648
http://social.biowar...index/8836283/1

I... that... but... oh God, I think I'm having an aneurysm.

I think TEWR was dead on. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. There's no reason for him to say "Why would you think she is?" if he knew about the reasons people thought she was one. He didn't say "People have been falsely assuming that" or the like, he questioned why it would be thought at all. Something that's so strongly implied that no one has even doubted it.

No wonder the storyline is such a mess.

Modifié par Rifneno, 24 février 2012 - 10:34 .

[Blacklash93]

Rifneno wrote...

No wonder the storyline is such a mess.

How is the story a mess? I think it's held together pretty well so far.

Sure there's the issue with Leliana and a few codex/dialogue-exposition contradictions, but that's pretty much it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

No wonder the storyline is such a mess.

How is the story a mess? I think it's held together pretty well so far.

Sure there's the issue with Leliana and a few codex/dialogue-exposition contradictions, but that's pretty much it.

Codex contradictions are intended.

[TEWR]

I think TEWR was dead on

Should I be happy I was right about Bioware's disconnect between themselves? Or upset?

[Blacklash93]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think TEWR was dead on

Should I be happy I was right about Bioware's disconnect between themselves? Or upset?

These are minor details that could easily be rationalized.

Leliana was trained to always fit in with the crowd and that's why she's wearing a Seeker uniform.
Cassandra follows a faction of Seekers still loyal to the Divine.
Wynne was being a forgetful old crone when talking about the Litany of Adralla's origin.
Larius was being thought-jumbled as usual when he said "two-thousand years".

See? Easy.

They could be a lot worse off. The Mass Effect team will show you that. At least here the main plot is still quite solid.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 25 février 2012 - 04:16 .

[Cody]

Blacklash93 wrote...

They could be a lot worse off. The Mass Effect team will show you that. At least here the main plot is still quite solid.

Yet nowhere near as solid as Mass Effect. Seriously what are you on about?

[Blacklash93]

CodyMelch wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

They could be a lot worse off. The Mass Effect team will show you that. At least here the main plot is still quite solid.

Yet nowhere near as solid as Mass Effect. Seriously what are you on about?

Mass Effect has been riddled with plot and logic holes and inconsistent characterization ever since ME2. The DA franchise doesn't have it nearly as bad.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 25 février 2012 - 04:49 .

[Cody]

Blacklash93 wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

They could be a lot worse off. The Mass Effect team will show you that. At least here the main plot is still quite solid.

Yet nowhere near as solid as Mass Effect. Seriously what are you on about?

Mass Effect has been riddled with plot and logic holes and inconsistent characterization ever since ME2. The DA franchise doesn't have it nearly as bad.

And yet you name no examples. Thus makes your accusation without weight.

[Blacklash93]

Derelict Reaper.
The Lazarus Project.
Jacob's loyalty mission.
Miranda's characterization.
A ton of stuff in ME3 I can't talk about.

[Cody]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Derelict Reaper.
The Lazarus Project.
Jacob's loyalty mission.
Miranda's characterization.
A ton of stuff in ME3 I can't talk about.

LOL. Really? THAT is your reasoning? WOW. Yes a floating ship in space being surrounded by billions of stars isn't exactly easy to come by. The Lazarus Project is a medical achievement involving the best medical minds in ME. Star wars and Star trek have done worse that that. Atleast Bioware gave you an explanation.

Jacobs loyalty mission? Nothing wrong with it other than the obvious fact that you didn't like it. Same goes for Mirandas characterization. No plot holes there.

A ton of stuff in ME3 that you don't know about do not equiate a plot hole.

[Blacklash93]

Ah... to be blissfully ignorant.

[TEWR]

I seem to have passed through a corridor of darkness and entered another realm where threads seemingly dealing with Dragon Age characters and plots actually deal with Mass Effect characters and plots....





EDIT: Not that I'm trying to say there's anything wrong with it. I'm just saying what I said for snarky lulz, as I had a God of War series discussion in another DA thread with Rifneno and Xilizhra a while back.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[Rifneno]

Blacklash93 wrote...

How is the story a mess? I think it's held together pretty well so far.

Sure there's the issue with Leliana and a few codex/dialogue-exposition contradictions, but that's pretty much it.

Look, if you want me to explain all the ways DA2's story was held together with chewed bubble gum, you're going to have to pay for the carpal tunnel treatment.
The most obvious point for me was that so much of Kirkwall's problems were the Enigma of Kirkwall making the town into a vortex of insanity and dialing it up to 11 for mages. Things being so bad that in the undercity even ordinary people could contact demons because the Veil was so sundered. We went from only a small handful of blood mages and abominations in DAO to having more of them than sane NPCs in DA2. All because of the Enigma of Kirkwall (because "ancient Tevinter ****s who put the Veil in a giant paper shredder for reasons unknown" got tiring to write after the first time). ... And no one noticed anything was out of the ordinary. They basically put the Circle of Magi in the house from Poltergeist and nobody thought "geez, something might be wrong with this place, I don't think the walls are supposed to bleed with the blood of the innocent..." Even though so many of the inhabitants were from places that were unhaunted, they didn't notice that Kirkwall was the mouth of Hell. People like Bethany and Anders especially should have noticed pretty much immediately the unusually high demon population. But they don't. Anders doesn't even notice and blame it on the Chantry or templars.
How about where, if you sided with the mages, you can save every mage in the room and they'll all instantly die of a congenital heart defect just so Orsino can have his mental breakdown and decide that the best course of action is to to commit suicide so he can become a giant corpse monster while surrounded exclusively by allies? They later admitted that part was just because they wanted the mage route to have 2 boss fights too.
How about how Thrask, an otherwise intelligent and reasonable person, along with his entire conspiracy decide that Hawke is Meredith's puppet even if they know first-hand that Hawke has been actively working against Meredith for many years and even one of the few that dares to publicly speak out against her even now? Instead of thinking "this will be our greatest ally," they decide that blackmailing Hawke by kidnapping and threatening to kill a loved one (or Carver) is the correct course of action. That storyline was worse than New Coke.
"Petrice, you scum! You tried to get me killed so you can start a religious war?! I'll kill you right here in this abandoned house where no one knows you and Varnell are and we outnumber you. Prepare to meet your Maker!" "Nah." "Oh. Okay then. Bye."
"Hi, my name is Merrill." "I'm Hawke, a templar supporter." "Oh? That sucks, 'cuz I'm a blood mage." "What! How--I'm going to turn you in or kill you or something!" "Nah. I'd prefer it if you covered up my existence for the next 6 years while I experiment on an ancient darkspawn murder device in the middle of the biggest city in the Free Marches." "Ok, I'll do that then." (Note to TEWR: I'm not saying I agree with such a course of action, but the option definitely should have been there for Hawkes who are vehemently anti-blood mage/pro-templar.)

I could go on, but I don't have direct access to an OC-192 and my piddly DSL couldn't handle pointing out every "wait, what?" in DA2. Like trying to send a lake through a drinking straw.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Should I be happy I was right about Bioware's disconnect between themselves? Or upset?

Upset, I'd say. I know I am.

I seem to have passed through a corridor of darkness and entered another realm where threads seemingly dealing with Dragon Age characters and plots actually deal with Mass Effect characters and plots....

Cool with me as long as no one spills anything from that damnedable leak. I'm still afraid to read ME forums. Especially when The Day™ is so close.

EDIT: Not that I'm trying to say there's anything wrong with it. I'm just saying what I said for snarky lulz, as I had a God of War series discussion in another DA thread with Rifneno and Xilizhra a while back.

That was fun. I actually had some more theories later on too, but I forget what they were. I eventually realized I'm putting way too much thought into a game whose plot can be reduced to the word "KILL!"

[TEWR]

Upset, I'd say. I know I am.

Upset it is!

Why was I right?! Why God Nixon why?! Damn this world I live in! Woe to me and all who inhabit it! Woe! Woe!!! WOE!!!!

That was fun. I actually had some more theories later on too, but I forget what they were. I eventually realized I'm putting way too much thought into a game whose plot can be reduced to the word "KILL!"

Thinking about Kratos always gets me thinking about the manly comics: http://thepunchlinei...com/archives/71

I'm not sure which I found funnier. The one I linked to or the ones that have Kratos and Leonidas playing Gay Chicken.

[TEWR]

Note to TEWR: I'm not saying I agree with such a course of action, but the option definitely should have been there for Hawkes who are vehemently anti-blood mage/pro-templar.)

While I'm a fervent -- bordering on fanatical =P -- Merrill supporter, I agree that the option should've been present.

However, I don't think it should've been present in Act 1. Even were Hawke to try and turn in Merrill in Act 1, the Templars -- because we've got 95% of them being psychotic ****s in Kirkwall -- might not care that Hawke turned in a blood mage. They might try and arrest/kill him as well simply for knowing a blood mage.

Additionally, if Hawke as a Mage went to the Templars it wouldn't do him much good in Act 1. Reason being, Templars can sense who is a mage, as DAO's Templar in Lothering proved to a Mage Warden.

Granted, this might not be something inherent to all Templars. I went over this with Emp a week or so ago and we reached a middle ground of sorts. I forget what was said, though.

Still, the risk is not worth it when Hawke is a mage/has a mage sibling (I still think both siblings should've lived, but meh).

Acts 2 and 3 would've been appropriate spots for such a thing, because Hawke becomes untouchable at that point in time.

But... since blood magic is such a key aspect of her arc, I don't think she should've been able to be turned in. A Hawke should definitely try and do such a thing, but perhaps Varric expended some of his coin to keep Daisy out of the Circle/being killed (since he does want to help her and everything).

Or maybe the Templars try and kill Hawke because they think he's the real blood mage and he's trying to set up an Elf to take the fall for him.

Or... they just don't care. Because they're oblivious idjits.

Stuff like that.

So while I think Merrill shouldn't have been killed/sent to the Circle, people should've been able to make their Hawkes not only express such a Templaristic viewpoint on the matter but act on it as well.

To end up failing, but the action is what matters.

Granted, my adoration for Merrill may be playing a part in all of this

threatening to kill a loved one (or Carver)

I always did love how a sarcastic mage Hawke could say "You guys really don't know about the relationship between me and my brother, do you?"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 février 2012 - 09:02 .

[Cody]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Ah... to be blissfully ignorant.

Ignorant? I actually back up what I say while you don't and you only try to state what you say as facts. Yet you have NOTHING to back up what you say. And yet you call me ignorant? Cool story bro. W/e helps you sleep at night.

[Plaintiff]

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana isn't a seeker at all. Not even in the cameo at the end of DA2

https://twitter.com/...019473398939648
http://social.biowar...index/8836283/1

I... that... but... oh God, I think I'm having an aneurysm.

I think TEWR was dead on. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. There's no reason for him to say "Why would you think she is?" if he knew about the reasons people thought she was one. He didn't say "People have been falsely assuming that" or the like, he questioned why it would be thought at all. Something that's so strongly implied that no one has even doubted it.

No wonder the storyline is such a mess.

Well, in Sebastian's DLC, it's explicitly stated that Leliana, aka "Sister Nightingale" is the Divine's personal spy.

So okay, technically she's not a Seeker, but she seems to be working with them pretty closely, to the point that she might as well be.

But I'm not exactly sure where the Seekers stand now, following the events of DA2. Maybe Asunder clarifies that, but I'm not going to go out of my way to find and read it. It's possible that Leliana is working undercover and reporting their going's-on back to the Divine, who from what I gather is very ill-informed about... pretty much everything.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 février 2012 - 03:05 .

[Rifneno]

Filament wrote...

Um, there's a pretty obvious one. He could have asked the question as a way to point out the implied assumptions in the question asked. Which, in fact, seems rather fitting of Gaider's sardonic personality. From that POV I can feel the sardonicism oozing out of that smiley face at the end.

Of course, only he knows whether his intent was genuine or sardonic (or something else). Best not to assume. On the other hand, Gaider doesn't post here anymore, so I suppose we can assume whatever we want. It's not like anyone's going to come crash the party with facts or anything.

1. Right, because no one has ever used "I was just kidding/being sarcastic/ect." to cover up for a mistake. So clearly if someone says they didn't mean something the way it was interpretted, they should always be believed. ... Wanna buy a bridge?
2. He already did "clarify" the comment in the thread that was linked. I dismissed the explanation because it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Was that not clear? It seemed clear.
3. There's no smiley at the end of the original twitter remark. What the hell are you talking about? On a related note, everyone that's been on the Internet for more than 5 microseconds knows that tone doesn't translate to text. Which is why people use emoticons in messages like that. But there isn't one. So thanks for pointing out another reason not to believe it. I guess.

</crashpartywithfacts>

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Why was I right?! Why God Nixon why?! Damn this world I live in! Woe to me and all who inhabit it! Woe! Woe!!! WOE!!!!

Hmm. Sudden, uncontrollable sorrow? Oh God! Run, he's about to turn into a giant flesh golem!

However, I don't think it should've been present in Act 1. Even were Hawke to try and turn in Merrill in Act 1, the Templars -- because we've got 95% of them being psychotic ****s in Kirkwall -- might not care that Hawke turned in a blood mage. They might try and arrest/kill him as well simply for knowing a blood mage.

Additionally, if Hawke as a Mage went to the Templars it wouldn't do him much good in Act 1. Reason being, Templars can sense who is a mage, as DAO's Templar in Lothering proved to a Mage Warden.

There's just one problem with your analysis. It's based on the idea that Hawke doesn't make stupid decisions that recklessly endanger him/herself and everyone around them.

I always did love how a sarcastic mage Hawke could say "You guys really don't know about the relationship between me and my brother, do you?"

Yeah, that was great. I just wish it would've carried on longer.

Thrask: Weapons ready! Hawke is here to save his brother!
Hawke: What are you, high? I'm here to make sure you finish him off.
Grace: You'll know sorrow like--wait, what?
Hawke: Little freak is like herpes. Every time I think I'm finally rid of him, he shows up again.

[Cody]

Filament wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

1. Right, because no one has ever used "I was just kidding/being sarcastic/ect." to cover up for a mistake. So clearly if someone says they didn't mean something the way it was interpretted, they should always be believed. ... Wanna buy a bridge?
2. He already did "clarify" the comment in the thread that was linked. I dismissed the explanation because it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Was that not clear? It seemed clear.

Your point one is attacking a strawman, because I never said I believed his explanation or yours. I'm merely acknowledging both as possibilities. You're not.

You can go on believing whatever you want with no evidence whatsoever, I won't stop you. Though I'm curious what kind of "scrunity" is involved that makes you the magnificent mindreader you are, who can say with such certainty what he meant even despite the limitations of text you mentioned yourself, and despite that, again, there is no true certainty outside of his own head on this matter.

3. There's no smiley at the end of the original twitter remark. What the hell are you talking about? On a related note, everyone that's been on the Internet for more than 5 microseconds knows that tone doesn't translate to text. Which is why people use emoticons in messages like that. But there isn't one. So thanks for pointing out another reason not to believe it. I guess.

Right, it was the smiley after his second tweet that blacklash quoted in the OP. My bad.

</crashpartywithfacts>

Unsurprising that you would think that of yourself.

You can't blame him for thinking this way. DG has a tendency to blame the fans for not "getting" somethingthat he did. Even if the blame is on his part. Heck he blames the fans for DA2's backlash. Saying that they either did not understand it or didn't get it. His replies to fans most of the time involve a form of arrogance. That his wiriting and his story is not bad or has no problems in it whatsoever. It is just the fans. Now I don't mind most of his material. I enjoy it and thought DA2 was pretty good. Could have been better but I didn't find it to be THAT bad. But his response to fan critism is just un-professional and just reminds me of the guy who made Amy, and what he said to the critics and fans that did not like it.

So yea. Riffy's reaction to DG's comment is understandable.