2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Filament wrote...

Your point one is attacking a strawman, because I never said I believed his explanation or yours. I'm merely acknowledging both as possibilities. You're not.

Swing and a miss. "crash the party with facts" With facts. This more than slightly implies that you believe that scenario to be the case. Now sure, you could say I'm just making a false assumption based on possibly poor wording. Except the only one that's doing that is you. Notice how my original post said "I think TEWR was dead on"? Think. I acknowledged the possibility that I was mistaken.

You can go on believing whatever you want with no evidence whatsoever, I won't stop you. Though I'm curious what kind of "scrunity" is involved that makes you the magnificent mindreader you are, who can say with such certainty what he meant even despite the limitations of text you mentioned yourself, and despite that, again, there is no true certainty outside of his own head on this matter.

Looking back, it's pretty funny how much you're overreacting about my supposedly adamant belief of "I think..." Thanks for the chuckle.

Unsurprising that you would think that of yourself.

Everyone thinks they're right pretty much all the time and no matter how poor a case they're making for their side. That's just the way the human mind works. It (depressingly) skips right over "could I be wrong?" and goes straight to "what can I say to defend my position?". But I digress.... I was merely mocking what I thought was a bad attempt at a clever phrase.

Still want to play more word games? This is fun.

[Blacklash93]

CodyMelch wrote...

You can't blame him for thinking this way. DG has a tendency to blame the fans for not "getting" somethingthat he did. Even if the blame is on his part. Heck he blames the fans for DA2's backlash. Saying that they either did not understand it or didn't get it. His replies to fans most of the time involve a form of arrogance. That his wiriting and his story is not bad or has no problems in it whatsoever. It is just the fans. Now I don't mind most of his material. I enjoy it and thought DA2 was pretty good. Could have been better but I didn't find it to be THAT bad. But his response to fan critism is just un-professional and just reminds me of the guy who made Amy, and what he said to the critics and fans that did not like it.

So yea. Riffy's reaction to DG's comment is understandable.

I don't remember any times he has blamed the fans. He has basically admitted to a ton of things being cut and the lack of player direction, among many other things. He's made a lot of excuses (which is understandable), but I think he's taken the criticism quite well.

And I'll elaborate some of the points I made earlier about ME.

- The very existance of the derelict Reaper is a huge hole in logic given how thorough the Reapers were said to be of wiping out all shreds of evidence they existed.
- Shepard's death and the Lazarus Project was a horribly contrived plot device that only served to set Shepard's abilities back to the start.
- Jacob's Father's crew were stranded on a deserted planet for 30 years, yet they had the most high-tech mechs and weapons that were only developed 2 years ago. How does that make a lick of sense?
- Miranda goes from being an ice queen, to a pleasant woman, to an emotionally vulnerable, insecure little girl with no justification.
- Basically how the Reapers get back from Dark Space. If you can see the Galaxy, you're so far away that even at FTL it would take hundreds or even thousands of years to get back.
- The Illusive Man's motives reek of stupid in ME3. I won't go any further than that.
- Some ridiculous revelations about the Protheans happen against all logic and reason.
- Mass Effect fields have basically become magic. How does increasing/lowering mass let you do all that stuff?

[Fast Jimmy]

If "I think" was really supposed to, by implication, preface everything
you said afterward, including, "There's no reason for him to say "Why
would you think she is?" if he knew about the reasons people thought she
was one," a seemingly definitive statement, then ok. I suppose I was
mistaken, then. You really do acknowledge that there could be other
reasons.

Wow. This is what I think of the above conversation.

Concordently. Vis a vis.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 25 février 2012 - 10:52 .

[Cody]

Blacklash93 wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

You can't blame him for thinking this way. DG has a tendency to blame the fans for not "getting" somethingthat he did. Even if the blame is on his part. Heck he blames the fans for DA2's backlash. Saying that they either did not understand it or didn't get it. His replies to fans most of the time involve a form of arrogance. That his wiriting and his story is not bad or has no problems in it whatsoever. It is just the fans. Now I don't mind most of his material. I enjoy it and thought DA2 was pretty good. Could have been better but I didn't find it to be THAT bad. But his response to fan critism is just un-professional and just reminds me of the guy who made Amy, and what he said to the critics and fans that did not like it.

So yea. Riffy's reaction to DG's comment is understandable.

I don't remember any times he has blamed the fans. He has basically admitted to a ton of things being cut and the lack of player direction, among many other things. He's made a lot of excuses (which is understandable), but I think he's taken the criticism quite well.

And I'll elaborate some of the points I made earlier about ME.

- The very existance of the derelict Reaper is a huge hole in logic given how thorough the Reapers were said to be of wiping out all shreds of evidence they existed.
- Shepard's death and the Lazarus Project was a horribly contrived plot device that only served to set Shepard's abilities back to the start.
- Jacob's Father's crew were stranded on a deserted planet for 30 years, yet they had the most high-tech mechs and weapons that were only developed 2 years ago. How does that make a lick of sense?
- Miranda goes from being an ice queen, to a pleasant woman, to an emotionally vulnerable, insecure little girl with no justification.
- Basically how the Reapers get back from Dark Space. If you can see the Galaxy, you're so far away that even at FTL it would take hundreds or even thousands of years to get back.
- The Illusive Man's motives reek of stupid in ME3. I won't go any further than that.
- Some ridiculous revelations about the Protheans happen against all logic and reason.
- Mass Effect fields have basically become magic. How does increasing/lowering mass let you do all that stuff?

After months of saying that the fans just "didn't get it" Yes.

-Not easy to do. They failed to do so as seen in ME1 when Liara found out that the Protheans were whiped out. Thus that would mean they left behind evidence. Just because they do their best to remove any traces of themselves. Doesn't automatically mean they will succeed.

- That was pure gameplay mechanics. Nothing in lore suggests that he lost his combat capabilities.

- ...what makes you think that the mechs seen in ME2 WEREN'T around for 30 years? Hell they can easily be older models that are just the same type. Nowhere does it ever say that they have only been around for 2 years.

- Yes and no. She does go from Ice queen to pleasent women far to quickly. But through talking with Shepard and doing that stuff involving her sister it brings up emotions. The later is understandable.

- Wow...did you miss the part about them being technologically advanced? We don't even know just how FAR they were from the galaxy. Just that they were in dark space. Combined with being technologically superior there FTL would be far faster than what is seen in ME.

- How do you figure? It has been stated that the Cerberus you fight are indoctrinated so again you are just reaching for straws.

- Agains't your logic and reason. But again you don't back up your claim. If you are speaking of the Collectors then it isn't a plot hole. It is completely logical to assume the reapers would like to have some slave workers.

- ...examples? Even you are speaking about Biotics, that is telekinesis and more.

So basically you just looked for things and assumed they were plot holes because you didn't like and/or didn't understand them. Nice.

[dragonflight288]

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Anders and Meredith were both nut jobs in their own way. Some people sympathize with Anders, and others, well, I can't think of anyone who sympathizes with Meredith.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

dragonflight288 wrote...

......

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.................

Anders and Meredith were both nut jobs in their own way. Some people sympathize with Anders, and others, well, I can't think of anyone who sympathizes with Meredith.

...They're both fun to kill.

[Rifneno]

Filament wrote...

The facts are whatever is in his head. They could very well confirm your suspicions. But I suppose you're right to call my bluff, because I do tend to believe his scenario over yours. But that's still rather tangential to my point, since I acknowledge both scenarios, and my point is that you don't.

And what, you think he's incapable of lying? Perhaps you need to go read some old posts from around Witch Hunt where he and the rest of the DA team told us over and over that this game was really finished and not rushed at all despite taking half the expected time. Which is the polar opposite of what they're saying now. But go ahead and blindly drink your Kool-Aid. I'm actually thankful for it, the food coloring stains make it easy to tell who not to take seriously.

If "I think" was really supposed to, by implication, preface everything you said afterward, including, "There's no reason for him to say "Why would you think she is?" if he knew about the reasons people thought she was one," a seemingly definitive statement, then ok. I suppose I was mistaken, then. You really do acknowledge that there could be other reasons.

*facepalm* Do you have any idea what the average conversation would look like if people listed every longshot possibility that conflicted with statements like "no reason for X"? Every thread would be a wall of text like the Great Wall of China. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say "I see no reason" rather than "There is no reason" but it's just semantics really. If one doesn't see something, it's pretty hard to acknowledge it. Add to that the fact that people often do things for no apparent reason (note the 'apparent' before your next round of word games) or reasons like having been distracted or in a hurry. It gets very clear very fast that phrases like "no reason for X" generally acknowledge a small room for error because people are human. So put down the dictionary and... I don't even care what. Just as long as it doesn't involve me.

It's true that I may sometimes write abominable sentences and use words that aren't strictly "correct." But I think you understood well enough that I thought his response sounded a bit like a cop-out, while admitting I was wrong if it wasn't.

So to sum up, Filament here got on my case for saying I didn't believe it when DG tried to clarify a comment he made. Within a couple of posts, he's saying he doesn't believe it when I tried to clarify a comment.

How's that phrase go? "Pot kettle black"?

[EmperorSahlertz]

That the game was rushed, does not mean that the storyline was rushed. The story could very well have been finished within 2 years of DA:O release.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That the game was rushed, does not mean that the storyline was rushed. The story could very well have been finished within 2 years of DA:O release.

In a way, it does.  The more you cut away at a good story, the less it is a good story.  Eventually you start losing the things that make it any good in the first place.  Most of the complaints people have are about obvious actions Hawke should have been able to take.  The less forks in the road we can have, the worse the story is.
Or a simpler analogy...  imagine them trying to crush Lord of the Rings into a single hour long special.  LoTR is an incredible story, but that 'movie' would suck because they had to cut away too much of it.

[Cody]

Rifneno wrote...
imagine them trying to crush Lord of the Rings into a single hour long special.  LoTR is an incredible story, but that 'movie' would suck because they had to cut away too much of it.

Yea but in that case it wouldn't be a bad series. Just funny. As shown here:

http://www.shamusyou...idedtale/?p=612

[dragonflight288]

Yea but in that case it wouldn't be a bad series. Just funny. As shown here:

http://www.shamusyou...idedtale/?p=612

lol. Yeah, but it's only funny if you organize it right. And we the audience know not to take it seriously because we have context to compare it too. Otherwise, lacking said context, it becomes less funny and more annoying.

[Blacklash93]

CodyMelch wrote...

After months of saying that the fans just "didn't get it" Yes.

-Not easy to do. They failed to do so as seen in ME1 when Liara found out that the Protheans were whiped out. Thus that would mean they left behind evidence. Just because they do their best to remove any traces of themselves. Doesn't automatically mean they will succeed.

- That was pure gameplay mechanics. Nothing in lore suggests that he lost his combat capabilities.

- ...what makes you think that the mechs seen in ME2 WEREN'T around for 30 years? Hell they can easily be older models that are just the same type. Nowhere does it ever say that they have only been around for 2 years.

- Yes and no. She does go from Ice queen to pleasent women far to quickly. But through talking with Shepard and doing that stuff involving her sister it brings up emotions. The later is understandable.

- Wow...did you miss the part about them being technologically advanced? We don't even know just how FAR they were from the galaxy. Just that they were in dark space. Combined with being technologically superior there FTL would be far faster than what is seen in ME.

- How do you figure? It has been stated that the Cerberus you fight are indoctrinated so again you are just reaching for straws.

- Agains't your logic and reason. But again you don't back up your claim. If you are speaking of the Collectors then it isn't a plot hole. It is completely logical to assume the reapers would like to have some slave workers.

- ...examples? Even you are speaking about Biotics, that is telekinesis and more.

So basically you just looked for things and assumed they were plot holes because you didn't like and/or didn't understand them. Nice.

Why don't you quote things that actually exist? He never said fans just "didn't get it".

- The Reapers knew when Sovy was killed. They could have tracked the DR quite easily if even Cerberus could find it. The Reapers were thrown the idiot ball when they neglect the fact that there's a huge piece of evidence they exist.

- Shepard's death was still horribly contrived and served little purpose.

- Because the codex said so. Read up.

- Mac confirmed they were using conventional FTL to fly back to the galaxy. That makes no sense. There's either more to it or it's an oversight.

- Oh no. The indoctrination and how Cerberus got its army is so implausable I'm actually embarrassed for the writers. TIM was thrown the idiot ball.

Mass Effect fields draining health, making sharp hologram blades, and letting you teleport have nothing to do with altering the mass of objects.

No, the truth is that Mass Effect isn't the prodigy of game story and narrative you believe it to be. There's plenty of flaws and the devs there don't have the luxury of the excuse of a rushed product to brush it aside.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I really don't think You should be talking about Mass Effect 3 here. At all.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 février 2012 - 10:52 .

[Lazy Jer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

......

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Anders and Meredith were both nut jobs in their own way. Some people sympathize with Anders, and others, well, I can't think of anyone who sympathizes with Meredith.

True.  Meredeth is very difficult to defend.  She believes what she's doing is for the greater good and her backstory gives her a very good reason for siding with the templars, but in the end she was a tyrant.  She wanted absolute control over the circle and then turned her eye on Kirkwall itself.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blacklash93 wrote...
- The Reapers knew when Sovy was killed. They could have tracked the DR quite easily if even Cerberus could find it. The Reapers were thrown the idiot ball when they neglect the fact that there's a huge piece of evidence they exist.

 
The Reapers only knew Soovereign had died, because it didn't open the Citadel Relay on the appointed time. It wasn't because they were monitoring it specifically and noticing when it ceased to function.

Blacklash93 wrote... 
- Shepard's death was still horribly contrived and served little purpose.

 
It served the purpose of getting him into the service of Cerberus, and to make an epic start for a game.

Blacklash93 wrote... 
- Mac confirmed they were using conventional FTL to fly back to the galaxy. That makes no sense. There's either more to it or it's an oversight.

 
They could be using conventional FTL drives to get back to the galaxy. How much faster than light is still unknown (which is plausible if the relativity theory is proven incorrect).

Blacklash93 wrote... 
- Oh no. The indoctrination and how Cerberus got its army is so implausable I'm actually embarrassed for the writers. TIM was thrown the idiot ball.

 
TIM had been under Reaper influence for a long time. It all started during the First Contact War. You find out about that if you read the comics. So there is a clear point of entry for the Reapers to get influence over Cerberus.

[dragonflight288]

Add in that she wouldn't step down as the de-facto Viscount when the Nobles called her out on it. For three years. The only way she stepped out of Kirkwall politics not related to the Templars and the Chantry was with her death.

She may have had some fans like Loghain does if we got to see more of her no matter if we supported the mages or templars. It sucks that we can only hear her back story if we support the templars.

[Cody]

Blacklash93 wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

After months of saying that the fans just "didn't get it" Yes.

-Not easy to do. They failed to do so as seen in ME1 when Liara found out that the Protheans were whiped out. Thus that would mean they left behind evidence. Just because they do their best to remove any traces of themselves. Doesn't automatically mean they will succeed.

- That was pure gameplay mechanics. Nothing in lore suggests that he lost his combat capabilities.

- ...what makes you think that the mechs seen in ME2 WEREN'T around for 30 years? Hell they can easily be older models that are just the same type. Nowhere does it ever say that they have only been around for 2 years.

- Yes and no. She does go from Ice queen to pleasent women far to quickly. But through talking with Shepard and doing that stuff involving her sister it brings up emotions. The later is understandable.

- Wow...did you miss the part about them being technologically advanced? We don't even know just how FAR they were from the galaxy. Just that they were in dark space. Combined with being technologically superior there FTL would be far faster than what is seen in ME.

- How do you figure? It has been stated that the Cerberus you fight are indoctrinated so again you are just reaching for straws.

- Agains't your logic and reason. But again you don't back up your claim. If you are speaking of the Collectors then it isn't a plot hole. It is completely logical to assume the reapers would like to have some slave workers.

- ...examples? Even you are speaking about Biotics, that is telekinesis and more.

So basically you just looked for things and assumed they were plot holes because you didn't like and/or didn't understand them. Nice.

Why don't you quote things that actually exist? He never said fans just "didn't get it".

- The Reapers knew when Sovy was killed. They could have tracked the DR quite easily if even Cerberus could find it. The Reapers were thrown the idiot ball when they neglect the fact that there's a huge piece of evidence they exist.

- Shepard's death was still horribly contrived and served little purpose.

- Because the codex said so. Read up.

- Mac confirmed they were using conventional FTL to fly back to the galaxy. That makes no sense. There's either more to it or it's an oversight.

- Oh no. The indoctrination and how Cerberus got its army is so implausable I'm actually embarrassed for the writers. TIM was thrown the idiot ball.

Mass Effect fields draining health, making sharp hologram blades, and letting you teleport have nothing to do with altering the mass of objects.

No, the truth is that Mass Effect isn't the prodigy of game story and narrative you believe it to be. There's plenty of flaws and the devs there don't have the luxury of the excuse of a rushed product to brush it aside.

And again you grasp at straws and look for plot holes. Emp alrdy disproved your BS so I don't have much to say other than that again. You mix gameplay with lore. Especially with "Mass Effect Fields draining health". As for the holo blades? Bioware has stated they will produce more info on it. But what they did say is that it is more psionic. So again, due to your ignorrance you call plot hole when there is none. Nice. 

Not only that but the codex only say that the companies were approved to mass produce them more significantly. It never said that they were invented and only been around for 2 years. Just that they can start mass producing them EVERYWHERE due to the massive loss of life at the battle of the citadel.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 27 février 2012 - 04:26 .

[dragonflight288]

quick comment. If you guys are going to discuss Mass Effect 3 and its plot holes before it comes out, maybe you should take it to the Mass Effect 3 section.

[Cody]

Indard lol. Sorry.

[dragonflight288]

All right....seriously why discuss plot holes before the game comes out anyway?

Back to the subject.....it's been so discussed and every possible point that could've been made has been made that I can't think of much else to say.

[TEWR]

Back to the subject.....it's been so discussed and every possible point that could've been made has been made that I can't think of much else to say.

Monkeys and Honey badgers.

Wait... Rifneno and I talked about that already.

Ah! I got it! Gorillas and other primates riding battlebears and wielding crossbows that fire honey badgers.

Oh... you meant something related to mages, Templars, Anders, and Meredith. Can't think of anything either.

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I really don't think You should be talking about Mass Effect 3 here. At all.

This. GDI, people. It's bad enough when you have to avoid the actual Mass Effect forums over possible spoilers from that hateful leak, but even here?

Filament wrote...

Got on your case for supporting your nonbelief with a foolishly absolute claim, would be a more accurate way to put it. Maybe it is semantics, but when the meaning of the words you use seems to paint you as an arrogant tool who only sees interpretations as valid when they fit your agenda, you can probably expect that I'll keep harping on 'semantics.'

And no, I did no such thing in kind.

That's nice. I'll be over there, way over there, very busy on not degenerating into a flame war because someone on the internet has a different opinion than I do. But good luck with... uhh... whatever it is you're trying to do.

dragonflight288 wrote...

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.................

Anders and Meredith were both nut jobs in their own way. Some people sympathize with Anders, and others, well, I can't think of anyone who sympathizes with Meredith.

You'd be surprised. One of many threads where people actually feel bad for her because of some unverified story about her sister becoming an abomination after she sheltered and hid her for years. Which adds some hilarity to the quest wherein she sends a death squad to murder an unarmed woman for giving her starved and tortured (by her templars) mage cousin a meal and a couch for the night. It's such a shame that Meredith didn't get that kind of treatment when she did so much more for a mage relative. But I digress... unbelievably, a lot of people really did feel for Meredith because of some bad experiences.

Obligatory Godwin's Law. Hitler wasn't always an anti-Semite. He became one when he wound up in the slums of Vienna. I forget exactly how it happened, but... well, it's a slum. Do the math. Oddly, no one ever feels sorry for poor little Adolf. Why is that? It's so confusing!

Then again, it's not the first nor last time that some of the fans epicly misinterpretted something. This thread had to take the cake on that. I still don't even understand how someone came away from that scene with that impression.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh... you meant something related to mages, Templars, Anders, and Meredith. Can't think of anything either.

Hmm. ... Okay. Say you've got whoever you despise the most on the opposing side. For mage supporters, probably Meredith, maybe Alrik or Karras. Templar supporters, I'm assuming Anders comes in the lead with Quentin and Grace runners up. Hell, maybe Corypheus. So you've got them at your mercy. They regret that they have but one life to give for their cause. How do you make them give it?

(Yes, there's something wrong with me.)