Xilizhra wrote...
Second, Justice did do one thing, that being getting rid of Anders' self-centeredness. What replaced it was arguably nothing better, but that is a negative trait gone.
Modifié par Ivucci, 01 mars 2012 - 02:02 .
What replaced Anders' "self-centeredness" (such as it was, and what there was of it) was murderous fanaticism, and to the nth degree at that.Xilizhra wrote...
I'd disagree in two areas. First, Anders still isn't a monster. Second, Justice did do one thing, that being getting rid of Anders' self-centeredness. What replaced it was arguably nothing better, but that is a negative trait gone.I'm not sure I agree. Anders was basically a good man, and Justice was basically a good spirit. It was only once they joined that they began their slide into madness. Without that joining I don't think either one would have become anything like the monster that bombed the Kirkwall Chantry. It was an absolutely toxic relationship; Justice and Anders brought out the worst in each other.
Not really. Anders is increasingly cut off from the world around him. He will always be alone. He will never stop fighting. Give him enough time, or even just the right trigger, and he'll turn on the Mage Rebellion too.Xilizhra wrote...
Well, he's no longer solitary, so it works out.
Only if Anders is dead.Xilizhra wrote...
And the templar side is definitely driven by fanatics... the mage's side seems unclear as of yet.
Modifié par General User, 01 mars 2012 - 02:49 .
Why do you think that? He seems to recover if he survives The Last Straw.Not really. Anders is increasingly cut off from the world around him. He will always be alone. He will never stop fighting. Give him enough time, or even just the right trigger, and he'll turn on the Mage Rebellion too.
He's not a leader, he won't be a driving force.Only if Anders is dead.
Of course he seems to get better. And why not? He's riding high at that point. The "regrettably necessary" murders are behind him and in front of him are nothing but targets for him to vent his RIGHTEOUS FURY! He's living his dream. But his dream is a nightmare to the rest of Thedas (even those that don't realize that yet).Xilizhra wrote...
Why do you think that? He seems to recover if he survives The Last Straw.Not really. Anders is increasingly cut off from the world around him. He will always be alone. He will never stop fighting. Give him enough time, or even just the right trigger, and he'll turn on the Mage Rebellion too.
In revolutionary movements, the driving personalities often are not the leaders. At least not the prime leaders.Xilizhra wrote...
He's not a leader, he won't be a driving force.Only if Anders is dead.
Modifié par General User, 01 mars 2012 - 03:16 .
I consider any loyal templar to be a de facto fanatic, so I have no real problems with that. And since he neither liked nor really justified killing any innocents involved with the Chantry explosion, I doubt he'll actually try to do so later on, or let it escalate at all to anyone who hasn't actually done anything.First he'll take on fanatic Templars (this is more or less how he is in Act I), then just any Templar will do (I'd say he past this mile post sometime in Act II), then it will be Templar sympathizers (a category that will only get bigger as time goes on), then it will be "those who should have done something" (ie, him in Act III), then it will be "those who stood by and did nothing" (in other words, he'll be justifying attacks on innocent bystanders), then it will be "those insufficiently dedicated to the cause" (by this time he'll be outright fighting fellow mages). And so on and so on, until someone takes him out.
I don't think most people even know who he is.In revolutionary movements, the driving personalities often are not the leaders. At least not the prime leaders.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Adrian and Fiona are no better than Anders.
You should never lose sight of the humanity of the other side.Xilizhra wrote...
I consider any loyal templar to be a de facto fanatic, so I have no real problems with that.
As of the end of Act III, he already has.Xilizhra wrote...
And since he neither liked nor really justified killing any innocents involved with the Chantry explosion, I doubt he'll actually try to do so later on, or let it escalate at all to anyone who hasn't actually done anything.First he'll take on fanatic Templars (this is more or less how he is in Act I), then just any Templar will do (I'd say he past this mile post sometime in Act II), then it will be Templar sympathizers (a category that will only get bigger as time goes on), then it will be "those who should have done something" (ie, him in Act III), then it will be "those who stood by and did nothing" (in other words, he'll be justifying attacks on innocent bystanders), then it will be "those insufficiently dedicated to the cause" (by this time he'll be outright fighting fellow mages). And so on and so on, until someone takes him out.
They don't have to.Xilizhra wrote...
I don't think most people even know who he is.In revolutionary movements, the driving personalities often are not the leaders. At least not the prime leaders.
Modifié par General User, 01 mars 2012 - 03:28 .
Fanatics are totally human. Except, perhaps, Anders himself, who's part spirit.You should never lose sight of the humanity of the other side.
As a means to an end. You were talking about it being an end in itself.As of the end of Act III, he already has.
How would it work, then?They don't have to.
The word of the Divine is as worthless as her office. The only thing the Chantry can offer the mages is total surrender; without that, violence is really the only recourse, because it means the Chantry won't give up its power willingly.Fiona took the trust the Divine had shown her, and dragged it through the dirt. The Divine had granted Fiona and the Colleges of Magi the chance and responsibility to reform the Circles, and instead of planning out how to best do that, she started a new vote to rebel, even though she had previously lost that vote. In short, she was given the chance for peaceful change, and yet she chose war. Her stupidity is so staggering, that I really hope that she will be one of the boss fights in DA3.
Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 mars 2012 - 03:31 .
Humanity (especially in a fantasy and sci-fi context) has much less to do with species.Xilizhra wrote...
Fanatics are totally human. Except, perhaps, Anders himself, who's part spirit.You should never lose sight of the humanity of the other side.
Was I? I thought I was talking about the Anders' justification of his own act of mass-murder, where that came from, and what it portends for him in the future.Xilizhra wrote...
As a means to an end. You were talking about it being an end in itself.As of the end of Act III, he already has.
Extremists push events by forcing either one side or the other to take action before cooler heads have a chance to prevail. A church bombing is as good an example as I can think of.Xilizhra wrote...
How would it work, then?They don't have to.
Modifié par General User, 01 mars 2012 - 03:41 .
I disagree. Humanity is simply the condition of being human, with all its glory and all its horror. This is why I dislike painting anyone as a "monster;" everyone has the capacity for great evil if pushed in the right way. So I won't dehumanize my foes, simply destroy them if necessary.Humanity (especially in a fantasy and sci-fi context) has much less to do with species.
You only need to start a war once.Was I? I thought I was talking about the Anders' justification of his
own act of mass-murder, where that came from, and what it portends for
him in the future.
What else would he do?Extremists push events by forcing either one side or the other to take action before cooler heads have a chance to prevail. A church bombing is as good an example as I can think of.
Sounds like a reason to kill Anders. Not the one I use, but still good.Xilizhra wrote...
I disagree. Humanity is simply the condition of being human, with all its glory and all its horror. This is why I dislike painting anyone as a "monster;" everyone has the capacity for great evil if pushed in the right way. So I won't dehumanize my foes, simply destroy them if necessary.Humanity (especially in a fantasy and sci-fi context) has much less to do with species.
War does not incline one towards moderation or reconciliation.Xilizhra wrote...
You only need to start a war once.Was I? I thought I was talking about the Anders' justification of his
own act of mass-murder, where that came from, and what it portends for
him in the future.
The atrocities he's capable of are only limited by the darkest imagination.Xilizhra wrote...
What else would he do?Extremists push events by forcing either one side or the other to take action before cooler heads have a chance to prevail. A church bombing is as good an example as I can think of.
Everyone also has the capacity for great good, remember.Sounds like a reason to kill Anders. Not the one I use, but still good.
True, but such things are only useful when the power balance isn't completely skewed.War does not incline one towards moderation or reconciliation.
I think he has more restraint than that, truth be told.The atrocities he's capable of are only limited by the darkest imagination.
And Anders had every chance to be that. Whether he chose it or it was chosen for him, he went down another path.Xilizhra wrote...
Everyone also has the capacity for great good, remember.Sounds like a reason to kill Anders. Not the one I use, but still good.
That's just it! The "power balance" will always be skewed against Anders! He'll be forever fighting somebody. And he'll never stop unless someone stops him.Xilizhra wrote...
True, but such things are only useful when the power balance isn't completely skewed.War does not incline one towards moderation or reconciliation.
Not completely. There's still plenty of good in him.And Anders had every chance to be that. Whether he chose it or it was chosen for him, he went down another path.
I really don't think we have enough proof for that to kill him outright.That's just it! The "power balance" will always be skewed against Anders! He'll be forever fighting somebody. And he'll never stop unless someone stops him.
There's plenty of good in everyone. That doesn't change the darkness the suffuses them. Or what they've done.Xilizhra wrote...
Not completely. There's still plenty of good in him.And Anders had every chance to be that. Whether he chose it or it was chosen for him, he went down another path.
Me neither.Xilizhra wrote...
I really don't think we have enough proof for that to kill him outright.That's just it! The "power balance" will always be skewed against Anders! He'll be forever fighting somebody. And he'll never stop unless someone stops him.
Only if they acknowledge (if they can even acknowledge) that they were wrong. Only if they want to be redeemed.Xilizhra wrote...
They can still be redeemed for what they've done,
I kill him.Xilizhra wrote...
and do you kill him or not?
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