"There's nothing you can say to me that I haven't already said to myself." I think he's acknowledged it.Only if they acknowledge (if they can even acknowledge) that they were wrong. Only if they want to be redeemed.
I don't. Sebastian strikes me as unreliable at best and there's no value to be gained by killing him.I kill him.
Perhaps. Anders does say that his own death would be just.Xilizhra wrote...
"There's nothing you can say to me that I haven't already said to myself." I think he's acknowledged it.Only if they acknowledge (if they can even acknowledge) that they were wrong. Only if they want to be redeemed.
Xilizhra wrote...
I don't. Sebastian strikes me as unreliable at best and there's no value to be gained by killing him.I kill him.
I don't believe anyone deserves to die, and don't think Anders is enough of an indiscriminate risk to kill him.
dragonflight288 wrote...
I don't believe anyone deserves to die, and don't think Anders is enough of an indiscriminate risk to kill him.
If you don't believe anyone deserves to die, then would that mean Meredith when she goes nuts, doesn't deserve death? Or Alrik? Or Kerras? Or even Elthina despite having direct authority over Meredith?
I would have Anders executed, but not at Sebastian's insistence, especially since he gives you a truly ridiculous ultimatum that reeks of "completely missing the point."
dragonflight288 wrote...
I don't believe anyone deserves to die, and don't think Anders is enough of an indiscriminate risk to kill him.
If you don't believe anyone deserves to die, then would that mean Meredith when she goes nuts, doesn't deserve death? Or Alrik? Or Kerras? Or even Elthina despite having direct authority over Meredith?
dragonflight288 wrote...
I would have Anders executed, but not at Sebastian's insistence, especially since he gives you a truly ridiculous ultimatum that reeks of "completely missing the point."
Indeed. Sebastian takes Anders death as necessary for all the wrong reasons. And he is willing to commit atrocities like bringing war on all of Kirkwall for the actions of one man because Anders may or may not be executed.
Anders does deserve death because it is justice. He committed a grave crime that cannot be taken back or amended. That deserves justice. I can freely support the mages afterwards. Forgiveness is all fine and dandy, but if overused, there wouldn't be a criminal justice system at all.
Rifneno wrote...
They do seem awful in comparison to the good and equal societies of Thedas like... oh, right, there aren't any. Remember the woman in the marketplace of Denerim who had fled there from Orlais because her family was in trouble? Their grand crime was that her brother defended her from someone trying to rape her. And since the rapist had high rank, that was all fine and dandy, but hitting him when he's committing rape is a heinous crime to them. But that's just Orlais, right? Oh no wait, that's pretty much the gist of the City Elf origin too. So Ferelden, the supposed shining example for the rest of Thedas, is also okay with rape as long as your daddy was important and the girl's wasn't.
And then there's Orzammar. OMFG. The way they treat the casteless makes even Tevinter look like a beacon of hope and equality.
And I have to wonder, if Anders said anything half as hateful about the Chantry as you just did about Tevinter (which you've basing on hearsay and having met a few slavers I might add) then I wonder what you'd have labeled him instead of "militant sociopath".
Orlesians look down on Chevaliers who misuse their posistion to commit such atrocities. There aren't much they can do about it though, since it is within their "rights".Lazy Jer wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
They do seem awful in comparison to the good and equal societies of Thedas like... oh, right, there aren't any. Remember the woman in the marketplace of Denerim who had fled there from Orlais because her family was in trouble? Their grand crime was that her brother defended her from someone trying to rape her. And since the rapist had high rank, that was all fine and dandy, but hitting him when he's committing rape is a heinous crime to them. But that's just Orlais, right? Oh no wait, that's pretty much the gist of the City Elf origin too. So Ferelden, the supposed shining example for the rest of Thedas, is also okay with rape as long as your daddy was important and the girl's wasn't.
It's not that Ferelden is "okay with" rape in that situation. It's that it's easier to get way with it if your daddy is rich and the girl isn't. There's an important difference, while not a big one. If it got out to the "important" people what the Arl's kid was doing even he couldn't duck some sort of punishment. The Orlesian gal in the marketplace gives the impression, to me at least, that what happened to her was completely accepted. After all, she was a merchant's daughter, he was a chevalier. She even mentions that that the City Elves in Ferelden have it better off then in Orlais. Basically Ferelden isn't a beacon of justices, but it's going in the right direction, from what I've heard of Orlais.
If Dragon Age is anything like medieval Earth, nobles (like Hawke) have the powers of low, middle, and high justice.esper wrote...
Uhm... There is no criminal justice system in dragon age (and if there were we players and Hawke are hardly objective enought to ever pass judgement) and the criminal justice system isn't 'just' it is necessary.dragonflight288 wrote...
Indeed. Sebastian takes Anders death as necessary for all the wrong reasons. And he is willing to commit atrocities like bringing war on all of Kirkwall for the actions of one man because Anders may or may not be executed.I would have Anders executed, but not at Sebastian's insistence, especially since he gives you a truly ridiculous ultimatum that reeks of "completely missing the point."
Anders does deserve death because it is justice. He committed a grave crime that cannot be taken back or amended. That deserves justice. I can freely support the mages afterwards. Forgiveness is all fine and dandy, but if overused, there wouldn't be a criminal justice system at all.
Modifié par General User, 01 mars 2012 - 06:33 .
Uhm... There is no criminal justice system in dragon age (and if there were we players and Hawke are hardly objective enought to ever pass judgement) and the criminal justice system isn't 'just' it is necessary.
dragonflight288 wrote...
Uhm... There is no criminal justice system in dragon age (and if there were we players and Hawke are hardly objective enought to ever pass judgement) and the criminal justice system isn't 'just' it is necessary.
But there is a city guard meant to enforce the laws. Granted, I see more corruption there with the old Captain of the Guard and the templars trying to force Aveline out so they can consolidate their power.
But the point I'm making is, even if Meredith won't hold her templars accountable for their actions, even if Elthina doesn't hold Meredith accountable for hers (taking power far beyond that of Knight-Commander. Refusing the city access to the Viscount seat, etc...) I can still hold Anders and those I'm associated accountable for theirs. If they commit a crime, then they must be held accountable. If they want redemption, then they need to not only own up to the crime, but make amends to all those they wronged. If they are not willing to do that, then the heavy hand of justice must fall on them, according to the crime committed.
That's my view. I kill Anders because he kills so many people and wanted to urge Meredith to call a Right of Annulment. He wanted to remove any chance of compromise. He takes accountability for it, but he still wants the war. He doesn't want to apologize and make up for it. Because he killed so many in the Chantry, death is the appropriate response. It is justice.
Did I support the cause? Yeah. Did I support the action? Not really. If the templars struck the first blow, no one would question the need for reformation. If it was the Circle, there would likely be more people in the Templar's camp. But it was an apostate, acting on his own. The blame falls solely on his head.
The Right of Annulment falls on Meredith's head, and the templar rebellion falls on every individual templar who refuses to back down from dominion over mages. And mages are responsible for their own actions.
If there is no criminal justice system, it's because people blatantly favor one group over another, making unfair situations. Vaughn in the City Elf Origin most certainly deserved being inprisoned and possibly castrated, but even after so long in prison (for the wrong reasons) he has absolutely no remorse and is still very much anti-elf. Only he would be the Arl if released. Who would hold him accountable?
I can't change the world to fit my view, but I can give myself a single standard, and live up to it.
Modifié par esper, 01 mars 2012 - 06:46 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Fiona took the trust the Divine had shown her, and dragged it through the dirt. The Divine had granted Fiona and the Colleges of Magi the chance and responsibility to reform the Circles, and instead of planning out how to best do that, she started a new vote to rebel, even though she had previously lost that vote. In short, she was given the chance for peaceful change, and yet she chose war. Her stupidity is so staggering, that I really hope that she will be one of the boss fights in DA3.
Lazy Jer wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
And then there's Orzammar. OMFG. The way they treat the casteless makes even Tevinter look like a beacon of hope and equality.
I disagree. I think the way Orzammar treats the casteless makes them look just as bad as Tevinter.
The Divine allowed for the mages to reform the Circles, as the mages saw fit (of course within the limits of reason), because who better understand the needs and plight of the mages, than the mages themselves? But she refused to help her own people achieve what they've always wanted through peace and negotiation, and isntead she chose to endanger not only her people, but every single person on the face of Thedas. She has to be removed.Silfren wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Fiona took the trust the Divine had shown her, and dragged it through the dirt. The Divine had granted Fiona and the Colleges of Magi the chance and responsibility to reform the Circles, and instead of planning out how to best do that, she started a new vote to rebel, even though she had previously lost that vote. In short, she was given the chance for peaceful change, and yet she chose war. Her stupidity is so staggering, that I really hope that she will be one of the boss fights in DA3.
Nice frame job, but that's all it is. It wasn't the mages responsibility to reform the Circles, as it was the Chantry all along that created the ******-poor environment that required reform in the first place. Instead of "granting" this to the mages, the Divine's responsiblity was the reform the way the Chantry operated its Circles. After all, the Chantry and its templars are the real power involved, legally and politically speaking. You don't tell the mages to do the reforming when all the power--and the problems caused by the power that makes reform even necessary--is in the hands of the templars.
Fiona understood that that very scenario: when the very system is set up so that mages' only legal recourse is waiting for their masters to allow them to exercise their legal-but-seldom recognized rights...there's no avenue for change without tearing down the existing system.
Modifié par Ivucci, 01 mars 2012 - 08:51 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Divine allowed for the mages to reform the Circles, as the mages saw fit (of course within the limits of reason), because who better understand the needs and plight of the mages, than the mages themselves? But she refused to help her own people achieve what they've always wanted through peace and negotiation, and isntead she chose to endanger not only her people, but every single person on the face of Thedas. She has to be removed.Silfren wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Fiona took the trust the Divine had shown her, and dragged it through the dirt. The Divine had granted Fiona and the Colleges of Magi the chance and responsibility to reform the Circles, and instead of planning out how to best do that, she started a new vote to rebel, even though she had previously lost that vote. In short, she was given the chance for peaceful change, and yet she chose war. Her stupidity is so staggering, that I really hope that she will be one of the boss fights in DA3.
Nice frame job, but that's all it is. It wasn't the mages responsibility to reform the Circles, as it was the Chantry all along that created the ******-poor environment that required reform in the first place. Instead of "granting" this to the mages, the Divine's responsiblity was the reform the way the Chantry operated its Circles. After all, the Chantry and its templars are the real power involved, legally and politically speaking. You don't tell the mages to do the reforming when all the power--and the problems caused by the power that makes reform even necessary--is in the hands of the templars.
Fiona understood that that very scenario: when the very system is set up so that mages' only legal recourse is waiting for their masters to allow them to exercise their legal-but-seldom recognized rights...there's no avenue for change without tearing down the existing system.
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