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Anders is the same as Meredith.


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#1351
TEWR

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Orlesians look down on Chevaliers who misuse their posistion to commit such atrocities. There aren't much they can do about it though, since it is within their "rights".


Disapproval without action means absolutely nothing.

The Orlesians that look down on it and do nothing are no better then Elthina. It's not within the Chevaliers' rights to do such a thing. That's never mentioned.

What happens is that no one bothers to do anything about it other then disapprove. What happens is that the person that penned the codex on Chevaliers says that the Maker will take action against them for their crimes one day.

Yea, that reeks entirely of someone familiar. I wonder who it is....

#1352
General User

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Ivucci wrote...
If my PC was a representantive of an official authority, I would have him executed as there would be no way I could roleplay around it.

If your PC is Hawke you may very well have that authority/responsibility.  Hawke was both the Champion and a noble of Kirkwall afterall.

Modifié par General User, 01 mars 2012 - 09:59 .


#1353
Rifneno

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General User wrote...

Not really. Anders is increasingly cut off from the world around him. He will always be alone. He will never stop fighting. Give him enough time, or even just the right trigger, and he'll turn on the Mage Rebellion too.


Psychology sure is fun. I'm glad we don't need years of training in it to predict what everyone is going to do.

You should never lose sight of the humanity of the other side.


Except in war, since--oh wait.

Extremists push events by forcing either one side or the other to take action before cooler heads have a chance to prevail. A church bombing is as good an example as I can think of.


The Chantry is not a church. This is where the problem lies for a great many people: associating the Chantry with modern western Christianity (for whom 'church' is a near exclusive term). One holds no political or military power, and the other holds greater of both than anyone else. Stop thinking of the Chantry as the friendly little church down the street.

#1354
dragonflight288

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The Chantry is a church. It's very different from churches people associate with today. Many people see it as another version of the Catholic Church in history. But it has very distinct differences that keep it from being such.

Women bearing the priesthood being one such item.

Having a military force dedicated and loyal only to it, is another (I know the Catholic Church had a lot of influence throughout the centuries, and they had plenty of wars declared, but the majority of anyone fighting under their banner served the king or queen of another country)

The foundation of it. The Chantry was founded 100 years after Andraste's death, and she was preaching a return to the worship of the Maker. It was already there, but forgotten during the time of the magisters rule. And they have several branches which just happened to be chosen by the Orlesiain Emperor....

forget that last part. Constantine, I'm looking at you.

But the Chantry is very much a religion and a church, but with several key differences to modern religions.

#1355
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Rifneno wrote...
Psychology sure is fun. I'm glad we don't need years of training in it to predict what everyone is going to do.

Hyperbole aside...  Training?  Experience?  Perspective, maybe?

Rifneno wrote...
Except in war, since--oh wait.

Ok.  I'll wait.

Rifneno wrote...
The Chantry is not a church. This is where the problem lies for a great many people: associating the Chantry with modern western Christianity (for whom 'church' is a near exclusive term). One holds no political or military power, and the other holds greater of both than anyone else. Stop thinking of the Chantry as the friendly little church down the street.

I never started thinking that.  I perceive the Andrastian Chantry as being very similar to the medieval Catholic Church.  Neither little nor particularly friendly.

Modifié par General User, 01 mars 2012 - 10:24 .


#1356
Xilizhra

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The Orlesians that look down on it and do nothing are no better then Elthina. It's not within the Chevaliers' rights to do such a thing. That's never mentioned.

Why does that even matter? If it is within their rights, those rights are evil and the institution should be disbanded posthaste.

If your PC is Hawke you may very well have that authority/responsibility. Hawke was both the Champion and a noble of Kirkwall afterall.

And rightful viscount, not being appointed solely due to the illegal intervention of Meredith.

#1357
General User

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Wait, Hawke's the rightful Viscount?

#1358
Xilizhra

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Well, "rightful" doesn't mean much in a governmental system like this. But certainly the second most powerful person in the city and with the widespread backing of the nobility; she would become viscount were Meredith not blocking the appointment of one.

#1359
General User

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Oh.  Well sure Hawke could be appointed Viscount.  But just being the leading candidate for an office doesn't give a person any sort of inherent claim on it.

#1360
Xilizhra

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Perhaps, but Meredith has far, far less claim on her position of power.

#1361
General User

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Does she not?

Kirkwall's problem is that they didn't really have a set in stone procedure for choosing a new Viscount. When Viscount Dumar was killed it set off a constitutional crisis. By my count, Kirkwall has no less than three methods in place for choosing a new leader: 1) passing the title onto the previous Viscount's heir, 2) having the nobility reach a consensus on a new leader, and 3) the Viscount's seat is filled when, where, and by whoever the Templar Order feels is appropriate.

The first was a nonstarter, and the second two were in conflict.  But there are established precedents for all three.

Had I my druthers, I'd have, as Hawke, extended my support and protection to the rest of the nobility so they could meet (preferably in secret) and select a new Viscount without Meredith's approval (or knowledge).

*sigh* Oh well...

Modifié par General User, 02 mars 2012 - 12:00 .


#1362
Xilizhra

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Well, I can't say it ended too badly. The mage issue is more important than Kirkwall's succession problems.

#1363
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It ended with mass slaughter, general chaos, a Templar Order occupation of the city, and a spreading war.  Gosh, I'd hate to see what you would call bad.

Modifié par General User, 02 mars 2012 - 12:07 .


#1364
Xilizhra

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General User wrote...

It ended with mass slaughter, general chaos, a Templar Order occupation of the city, and a spreading war.  Gosh, I'd hate to see what you would call bad.

The same thing, except spread out over centuries more, with thousands more like it. That's what would have happened if the boil of the mage problem wasn't burst right then. In any case, the templars has already been occupying the city for ages.

#1365
Cismontane

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Um refino, you do realize that as late as the 16th and early 17th centuries, the Catholic church had military capabilities the chantry could only dream of, don't you? Not only did they have armies and the treasury to hire mercs, but they had more than one Templar-like order and a secret police just like the seekers, answerable to the Pope alone (the Jesuits weren't always the lovable deans of Georgetown).

When, in the 16th century, the Schmalkaldic League (much of northern germany) - and several adjacent provinces (called "circles" interestingly enough) tried to break away to follow Protestantism and Martin Luther, the church levied war against them under the banner of the Catholic Lesgue, eventually defeating the heretics (and burning thousands of 'em).  Eventually, it took the combined armies of France, the Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark, with British assistance, to defeat the armies of the Catholic League (backed by the HRE and Spain), over thirty years of the bloodiest warfare in human history.  That war - which allowed the northern circles (conclaves of feudal domains) to separate themeselves from the Roman church, to follow Lutheranism and other Protestant denominations - saw the extermination of 1 out of every 5 central europeans.  For example, By the time the Catholic League burned the heretic city of Magdeburg to the ground, only 450 people of 30,000 still lived, after weeks of raping, pillaging and human bonfires.    Supposedly, the Elbe River ran red with human blood for weeks, and was nearly dammed and blocked by the shear mass of mutilated human corpses thrown into it.  

Most of the most gruesome tortures of the late medieval era were dreamed up by the League for use on the rebel circles, during this period of time (although both sides committed wholesale atrocities.. After Magdeburg, the rebels refused to accept the surrender of League combatants anymore, instead, summarily executing them.

The Peace of Westphalia, by which the northern alliance of Protestant states plus France, dictated the terms of the Church's military defeat, left the church militarily defanged forevermore, but that came only after defeat on the battlefield.

In terms of shear murderous brutality, the Chantry and Templars have nothing on the historical real world church of that era.

Modifié par Cismontane, 02 mars 2012 - 05:13 .


#1366
Ivucci

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General User wrote...

Ivucci wrote...
If my PC was a representantive of an official authority, I would have him executed as there would be no way I could roleplay around it.

If your PC is Hawke you may very well have that authority/responsibility.  Hawke was both the Champion and a noble of Kirkwall afterall.


What I meant is that I would *probably* have him executed if I represented an official authority not acquainted with him in any way.

There is a short story by a favourite writer of mine. Very briefly it goes like this: a serial killer goes to a heavenly trial, God is sitting there as a witness but not as a judge. The killer asks why is he not judged by the God himself, the Justice par excellence, and God says "It's because I know all your motivations, dreams and wishes and I understand why you did what you did. I understand, I don't judge. You must be judged by people, as imperfect as they are."

Anders has been a friend, or a companion, or a partner, for several years, I know (a bit) how he came to be the man he is now, I know his wishes and motivations, in short, I know too much. In my games, there is no way Hawke can be the judge or hand of justice, whether s/he is a rightful viscount or not.

Frankly, I still haven't got the situation 100% sorted out for myself, but this is more or less my stance.

#1367
DarkAmaranth1966

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Well, considering Mereideth is the one that ousted Viscount Amell, after Reveka Amell had a mage child and, put Dumar on the throne, yes Hawke is the rightful Viscount, he or Gamlen (since Leandra did not live) and, I don't think Gamlen belongs there.

#1368
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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...I kill Anders and then support the mages...

Feels good that way.

#1369
General User

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Ivucci wrote...

General User wrote...

Ivucci wrote...
If my PC was a representantive of an official authority, I would have him executed as there would be no way I could roleplay around it.

If your PC is Hawke you may very well have that authority/responsibility.  Hawke was both the Champion and a noble of Kirkwall afterall.


What I meant is that I would *probably* have him executed if I represented an official authority not acquainted with him in any way.

There is a short story by a favourite writer of mine. Very briefly it goes like this: a serial killer goes to a heavenly trial, God is sitting there as a witness but not as a judge. The killer asks why is he not judged by the God himself, the Justice par excellence, and God says "It's because I know all your motivations, dreams and wishes and I understand why you did what you did. I understand, I don't judge. You must be judged by people, as imperfect as they are."

Anders has been a friend, or a companion, or a partner, for several years, I know (a bit) how he came to be the man he is now, I know his wishes and motivations, in short, I know too much. In my games, there is no way Hawke can be the judge or hand of justice, whether s/he is a rightful viscount or not.

Frankly, I still haven't got the situation 100% sorted out for myself, but this is more or less my stance.

That's a horrifying story.

#1370
Rifneno

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dragonflight288 wrote...

But the Chantry is very much a religion and a church, but with several key differences to modern religions.


A religion, yes. "Church" implies Christianity or at least a related religion (Satanism and the like). Different religions often refer to their places of worship by different names. For example a Synagogue is Jewish, a Mosque is Islamic, and a Church is, you guessed it, Christian. The generic term for places of worship that don't take a specific name is "temple". The Andrastian Chantry takes a specific name for itself as well. "Chantry".
This may seem like nitpicking but I don't believe it is. It shows that people are making a mental connection from the Chantry to modern Churches that they're used to. And that's apples and oranges. Modern western Christianity isn't a single organization as it's split off into countless variations, and much more importantly the only power they have is to ask their followers to vote their way. The Chantry is a single organization and they can and do kidnap or murder whomever they please.

General User wrote...

Hyperbole aside... Training? Experience? Perspective, maybe?


What, are you just typing random words to get off track from the point that you make asinine assumptions about Anders' future actions with no apparent basis?

Cismontane wrote...

Um refino, you do realize that as late as the 16th and early 17th centuries, the Catholic church had military capabilities the chantry could only dream of, don't you?


And you do realize I said "modern western" for a reason, don't you? It doesn't really matter what people that have been dead for hundreds of years did. When you say "church", people think of the ones around them today, not what they read in a history book back in 9th grade. The same way when you say "France", they think of things like wine and the Eiffel Tower, not Napoleon. People reading this board live in 2012, not 1250.

#1371
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Rifneno wrote...
What, are you just typing random words to get off track from the point that you make asinine assumptions about Anders' future actions with no apparent basis?

Needless hostility aside... I can predict Anders future actions because they match the pattern of extremists. 

Anders WILL eventually turn on those he claims to be fighting for.  Just like every fanatic does who doesn't turn away from their path.  The problem with Anders is, thanks to his merger with Justice, he can't turn away.

Modifié par General User, 02 mars 2012 - 01:43 .


#1372
Xilizhra

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Have you thought about the fact that historical fanatics who did turn on their own people would be far more likely to be slapped with the label than those who didn't, and therefore remembered as such?

#1373
Rifneno

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General User wrote...

Needless hostility aside... I can predict Anders future actions because they match the pattern of extremists.  

Anders WILL eventually turn on those he claims to be fighting for.  Just like every fanatic does who doesn't turn away from their path.  The problem with Anders is, thanks to his merger with Justice, he can't turn away.


AFK, looking for the news story about hardcore PETA activists mass murdering endangered species.

...  Man, google sucks, I can't find it for some reason.

#1374
General User

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Rifneno wrote...

General User wrote...

Needless hostility aside... I can predict Anders future actions because they match the pattern of extremists.  

Anders WILL eventually turn on those he claims to be fighting for.  Just like every fanatic does who doesn't turn away from their path.  The problem with Anders is, thanks to his merger with Justice, he can't turn away.


AFK, looking for the news story about hardcore PETA activists mass murdering endangered species.

...  Man, google sucks, I can't find it for some reason.

Are you trying to say that the truly insane don't fit this pattern?  If so, you may have a point.

#1375
Xilizhra

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I think very few PETA members are insane.