2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't know if I'd label Anders or MLK a drama queen, but I would consider labeling people on these forums such every once in a while.

And to be clear, nothing Anders suffered came close to the horrific and traumatic family tragedy you described, Plantiff. Anders was taken into custody by the tower at the age of twelve. He was not abused, tormented or assaulted any worse than any other Tower mage. I do not condone the actions or policies of the Tower, but there are many who seem very well adjusted, despite being imprisoned. As for his degraded mental state after absorbing Justice, I only have Merril's quote to say "All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't."

[Koire]

The grim irony is that she did not either Moreover, he in his turn tries to warn her in the party banters. So I'd say they are even.

PS Re Anders past - we simply do not know much. All we know is:

Anders is a spirit healer. His real name is unknown, and his nickname refers to the fact that his family is from Anderfels.[1] When he started to exhibit magical abilities and set a barn on fire, his father grew afraid of him. At the age of twelve he was handcuffed and taken by the templars to the Ferelden Circle Tower.[2] The only personal possession he was allowed to keep was a pillow hand embroidered by his mother. Anders despised the Circle and compared it to a prison. He made at least seven and at most dozens[3] of attempts to escape the tower, each time being returned and punished by the templars. Yet First Enchanter Irving believed that Anders, however reckless, posed no true threat.[3] Anders' next-to-last escape earned him a year of solitary confinement, in which the only company he had most days was the tower's mouser named Mr. Wiggums. The final time he managed to run away was prior[4] to Uldred's uprising.
http://dragonage.wik...ders#Background

I guess a year in solitary is quite an unpleasant experience.

Modifié par Koire, 03 mars 2012 - 01:38 .

[Xilizhra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I don't know if I'd label Anders or MLK a drama queen, but I would consider labeling people on these forums such every once in a while.

And to be clear, nothing Anders suffered came close to the horrific and traumatic family tragedy you described, Plantiff. Anders was taken into custody by the tower at the age of twelve. He was not abused, tormented or assaulted any worse than any other Tower mage. I do not condone the actions or policies of the Tower, but there are many who seem very well adjusted, despite being imprisoned. As for his degraded mental state after absorbing Justice, I only have Merril's quote to say "All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't."

Whether it happened to him personally or not is irrelevant. He knew of it and comprehended the horror in which he existed, he just didn't think anything could be done until merging with Justice.

[Rifneno]

Merrill understands all Fade denizens are dangerous like my dog understands quantum physics. And not the smart one, the one that barked at the Christmas tree for a solid hour.

And yes, solitary confinement has been called everything from cruel and unusual to outright psychological torture. It has been proven in studies to cause mental illness (or worsen if it already existed) when used for more than short periods of time.

[dragonflight288]

And yet it's Merrill who never gets possessed. And the one who can offer the best defense plans against any demon Hawke bumps into (except the Pride Demon, who between the Desire demon, can affect every single person in the party.)

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And yet it's Merrill who never gets possessed. And the one who can offer the best defense plans against any demon Hawke bumps into (except the Pride Demon, who between the Desire demon, can affect every single person in the party.)

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/PlotArmor

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

And yet it's Merrill who never gets possessed. And the one who can offer the best defense plans against any demon Hawke bumps into (except the Pride Demon, who between the Desire demon, can affect every single person in the party.)

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/PlotArmor

There's no such thing as plot armor. Merrill's earned not being possessed.

[Cody]

Koire wrote...

The grim irony is that she did not either Moreover, he in his turn tries to warn her in the party banters. So I'd say they are even.

Yes she did. For she was never possessed. And he was to only warn her if she is set on rivalry. Otherwise she would say the other. But due to a bug both banter happen.

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

There's no such thing as plot armor. Merrill's earned not being possessed.

How?

[Xilizhra]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There's no such thing as plot armor. Merrill's earned not being possessed.

How?

By remembering that all of them are dangerous and taking precautions?

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

By remembering that all of them are dangerous and taking precautions?

Ooooohhhhhhh....that's what you meant.  I thought you meant, for instance, that she'd done so much for the demons that they just didn't feel right possessing her.  I'm gladI clarified what you meant before posting a wall of text.

[Rifneno]

Merrill is an idiot, plain and simple. She can be a Barney Fife-type well meaning lovable idiot, but still... idiot.

The only people I can think of that have dealt with demons and gotten off scott free were PCs. Even Avernus wound up horribly screwing it up and he's... Dragon Age doesn't have "archmages" right? No? Yet Merrill wants to deal with demons. Not just when a reasonable person might think it's the only, slim chance of survive. Every. Time. Feynriel's demon was the best one. You're there just to free Feynriel. A demon wants you to help him get Feynriel, which Marethari said would produce an abomination of unimaginable power. Merrill wants to deal! The common defense for this is that people say "she just wants you to hear it out, she won't lose approval if you say no and attack after hearing it out." That's not true. She does lose approval if you hear it out and then kill it. Which makes sense since what the bloody hell reason would there be to hear it out regardless if you didn't want to make a deal with it?

There's two conclusions that can be drawn. Either Merrill thinks she's good enough to outsmart and out-deceive (is that a word?) demons all the time, or she thinks demons are cute and cuddly and only feed on the souls of the innocent because no one hugged them enough. Either conclusion is brainmelting stupid and the former reeks of pride so strongly you can smell it a mile away.

Edit:  Oh, I forgot to add.  Her supposed preparations and protections against the demons.  Where exactly did she learn them?  All she knows about magic she learned from Marethari and Audacity.  Obviously she didn't learn her demon protections from a demon, so did she learn from them Marethari?  The woman who screamed "this is too dangerous!" the entire game?  Because it doesn't seem like Marethari would know this uber demon countermeasure.  After all, why would she be screaming about the danger if there wasn't any?

Modifié par Rifneno, 03 mars 2012 - 07:41 .

[Koire]

CodyMelch wrote...

Koire wrote...

The grim irony is that she did not either Moreover, he in his turn tries to warn her in the party banters. So I'd say they are even.

Yes she did. For she was never possessed. And he was to only warn her if she is set on rivalry. Otherwise she would say the other. But due to a bug both banter happen.

She wasn't possessed only because Marethari saved her.
Err, I was speaking about this banter:

Anders: It's not a good feeling, you know.
Merrill: What?
Anders: Being an abomination. I just got a taste of your future.
Merrill: I'm not that foolish. Our relationship is, um, strictly platonic.
Anders: It's like you're trapped in your own body, seeing out your eyes, while someone else moves you like a puppet.
Anders: And you're trying to scream, to move a single muscle, but there's no escape. Until you look down at the blood on your hands...
Merrill: Stop it. You're scaring me.
Anders: That's the point.

It always triggers after Dissent in Act 2, there are no other requirements. Which one did you mean?

[dragonflight288]

Merrill is an idiot, plain and simple. She can be a Barney Fife-type well meaning lovable idiot, but still... idiot.

The only people I can think of that have dealt with demons and gotten off scott free were PCs. Even Avernus wound up horribly screwing it up and he's... Dragon Age doesn't have "archmages" right? No? Yet Merrill wants to deal with demons. Not just when a reasonable person might think it's the only, slim chance of survive. Every. Time. Feynriel's demon was the best one. You're there just to free Feynriel. A demon wants you to help him get Feynriel, which Marethari said would produce an abomination of unimaginable power. Merrill wants to deal! The common defense for this is that people say "she just wants you to hear it out, she won't lose approval if you say no and attack after hearing it out." That's not true. She does lose approval if you hear it out and then kill it. Which makes sense since what the bloody hell reason would there be to hear it out regardless if you didn't want to make a deal with it?

There's two conclusions that can be drawn. Either Merrill thinks she's good enough to outsmart and out-deceive (is that a word?) demons all the time, or she thinks demons are cute and cuddly and only feed on the souls of the innocent because no one hugged them enough. Either conclusion is brainmelting stupid and the former reeks of pride so strongly you can smell it a mile away.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to add. Her supposed preparations and protections against the demons. Where exactly did she learn them? All she knows about magic she learned from Marethari and Audacity. Obviously she didn't learn her demon protections from a demon, so did she learn from them Marethari? The woman who screamed "this is too dangerous!" the entire game? Because it doesn't seem like Marethari would know this uber demon countermeasure. After all, why would she be screaming about the danger if there wasn't any?

And yet the demons can be routinely outsmarted or betrayed by the Warden or Hawke on a regular basis. Make a deal in the Deep Roads with the hunger demon, and Hawke can betray it after getting the information on how to leave. That required making a deal and Varric is more than happy to betray the demon. Merrill was all for using its knowledge, but avoiding letting it follow through on its end of the deal. She gets friend points if we do that.

And Merethari was screaming "this is too dangerous" about the eluvian, Merethari was speaking as if the ancient elves wanted the eluvians gone for good? Why then weren't they destroyed? They were preserved.

Merethari preached that Merrill would bring back the darkspawn taint.

That didn't happen.

Merethari was the one who got possessed, not Merrill. And there's no proof that Merrill would have gotten possessed. Granted, I'm willing to say that there was also no proof that she would avoid it as well. However, you can't say Merrill is responsible for what happened to the elves. They made their own decisions. You can't say she 100% would have failed. She was never allowed to try.

And among all the idiots of the world, again, it's Merrill who can recognize the signs of possession, knows how to fight the demons and resist, And offers the best advice when dealing with demons, and manages to avoid the negative consequences save those forced upon her by those around her. No other mage has ever made such preparations as she did to prevent damage from spreading.

Anders deliberately fused with Justice, and neither expected Vengeance, but both knew it would lead to a life-long battle against the Templar's that they may very well lose. They knew people other than them would get hurt. Merrill would have been the only one at risk if her plan had been followed. Merethari's plan put the entire clan at risk, and possibly Kirkwall as well.

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And yet the demons can be routinely outsmarted or betrayed by the Warden or Hawke on a regular basis. Make a deal in the Deep Roads with the hunger demon, and Hawke can betray it after getting the information on how to leave. That required making a deal and Varric is more than happy to betray the demon. Merrill was all for using its knowledge, but avoiding letting it follow through on its end of the deal. She gets friend points if we do that.

Like everyone else, I don't accept "the PC can do" to mean anyone can do it. PCs can do anything. They clearly don't count.

And Merethari was screaming "this is too dangerous" about the eluvian, Merethari was speaking as if the ancient elves wanted the eluvians gone for good? Why then weren't they destroyed? They were preserved.

Merethari preached that Merrill would bring back the darkspawn taint.

That didn't happen.

Where did you get the idea they were preserved? And the fact is, we don't know what the history is of the eluvians. We don't know what they are, how they function, or where they lead to. Maybe Merrill would have unleashed hell if she actually did make a functioning eluvian. We don't know because the only place that thing she made will lead is to one of those stupid TV shows where people bring in their old crap and an appraiser tells them what it's not worth.

Merethari was the one who got possessed, not Merrill. And there's no proof that Merrill would have gotten possessed. Granted, I'm willing to say that there was also no proof that she would avoid it as well. However, you can't say Merrill is responsible for what happened to the elves. They made their own decisions. You can't say she 100% would have failed. She was never allowed to try.

You're right. Except I didn't say that.

And among all the idiots of the world, again, it's Merrill who can recognize the signs of possession, knows how to fight the demons and resist, And offers the best advice when dealing with demons, and manages to avoid the negative consequences save those forced upon her by those around her. No other mage has ever made such preparations as she did to prevent damage from spreading.

Not a single word of that is true. To start with, Merrill is repeatedly fooled by Adacity wearing a Marethari suit. The best advice when dealing with demons is the advice that every other party member offers: "Don't!" She resists them in the sense that she barely gets to walk away from every encounter with them and only because they're not going to have one party member that earns a Darwin award. The same reason she or Anders never gets caught by the templars, the same reason that Danarius' slavers only catch Fenris when Hawke is around.

[Koire]

I will state beforehand that I'm not a Merrill's hater - I sympathise with her and feel deeply sorry for her. Just in case But

dragonflight288 wrote...

And yet the demons can be routinely outsmarted or betrayed by the Warden or Hawke on a regular basis. Make a deal in the Deep Roads with the hunger demon, and Hawke can betray it after getting the information on how to leave. That required making a deal and Varric is more than happy to betray the demon. Merrill was all for using its knowledge, but avoiding letting it follow through on its end of the deal. She gets friend points if we do that.

There are also a lot of examples when dealing with demons IS dangerous. And I can't recall any examples when it is absolutely necessary. In your example one can strike no deal at all with the same result.
Merrill disapproves of destroying evil tomes, you get +50 rivalry for simply doing this quest if you are not in romance. Merrill is the only one who approves of allowing Torpor to possess Feynriel because she is fooled by his promise that he won't hurt anyone. Merrill also betrays you to Pride (well, all do, but she is the first in the list just like Izzy is the first to betray you to Desire).

And Merethari was screaming "this is too dangerous" about the eluvian, Merethari was speaking as if the ancient elves wanted the eluvians gone for good? Why then weren't they destroyed? They were preserved.

Knowledge is always dangerous in child's hands. Whether it is worth getting anyway is another question, but I understand why Marethari would say to Merrill that it isn't. PS Re taint - what you wrote is true.

Merethari was the one who got possessed, not Merrill. And there's no proof that Merrill would have gotten possessed. Granted, I'm willing to say that there was also no proof that she would avoid it as well. However, you can't say Merrill is responsible for what happened to the elves. They made their own decisions. You can't say she 100% would have failed. She was never allowed to try.  

This is the tricky part where I will outright propose that we agree to disagree) Given the books, Torpor and Wyrme I believe she would, and Marethari saved her. But no, you can't deem Merrill responsible for the Keeper loving her and being willing to sacrifice her life for Merrill - this is Marethari's gift to Merrill, not a curse. 

And among all the idiots of the world, again, it's Merrill who can recognize the signs of possession, knows how to fight the demons and resist, And offers the best advice when dealing with demons, and manages to avoid the negative consequences save those forced upon her by those around her. No other mage has ever made such preparations as she did to prevent damage from spreading.

.. books, Torpor, Wyrme. It is not about preparation, it is about the strenght of will. Listen to what she says after betraying you in the Fade, it is something like "I knew what I must do, but somehow I didn't do it"...

Anders deliberately fused with Justice, and neither expected Vengeance, but both knew it would lead to a life-long battle against the Templar's that they may very well lose. They knew people other than them would get hurt. Merrill would have been the only one at risk if her plan had been followed. Merethari's plan put the entire clan at risk, and possibly Kirkwall as well.

I will also state beforehand that I do not support the idea of merging with any spirits, just in case But

-I doubt he knew people (Ella) would get hurt due to Vengeance, which you also wrote
-I doubt people would not get hurt in "a life-long battle against the templars" if he chose this path but did not merge with Justice. Although it surely adds some flavour, it is not exactly about the spirit/demon.

And Merrill effectively put Hawke at risk, while Marethari - Hawke and Merrill, and both of them - the clan, should Hawke and Co be unable to deal with the abomination.

Modifié par Koire, 03 mars 2012 - 10:51 .

[Xilizhra]

Like everyone else, I don't accept "the PC can do" to mean anyone can do it. PCs can do anything. They clearly don't count.

I'm not everyone else.

Merrill disapproves of destroying evil tomes, you get +50 rivalry for simply doing this quest if you are not in romance. Merrill is the only one who approves of allowing Torpor to possess Feynriel because she is fooled by his promise that he won't hurt anyone. Merrill also betrays you to Pride (well, all do, but she is the first in the list just like Izzy is the first to betray you to Desire).

Only for the first tome.

.. books, Torpor, Wyrme. It is not about preparation, it is about the strenght of will. Listen to what she says after betraying you in the Fade, it is something like "I knew what I must do, but somehow I didn't do it"...

Demonic mind control. No one is capable of resisting it in that instance.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Merrill disapproved of me destroying each individual tome. I thought she was supposed to.

I could be mistaken here, but I think that Merrill approves specifically of listening to Torpor rather than giving Feynriel to him. If you do give him to Torpor you keep friendship points so she obviously doesn't really mind which doesn't seem much better but I thought you could still get the approval points if you listened to and then rejected Torpor's proposal .

While Merrill is certainly not alone in being unable to resist demonic influence, I think that the fact that she constantly deals with demons makes her arguably the only one that is more likley than to encounter this type of experience in the future more often.

[Xilizhra]

While Merrill is certainly not alone in being unable to resist demonic influence, I think that the fact that she constantly deals with demons makes her arguably the only one that is more likley than to encounter this type of experience in the future more often.

Irrelevant. The demon was drawing off the power of a somniarus in its own Fade realm. The circumstance is unique.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Where was that established?

[Koire]

Xilizhra wrote...

Only for the first tome.

 
For each tome according to the Wiki. I can also confirm that it is for each tome on PC as of 1.03 myself.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I could be mistaken here, but I think that Merrill approves specifically of listening to Torpor rather than giving Feynriel to him. If you do give him to Torpor you keep friendship points so she obviously doesn't really mind which doesn't seem much better but I thought you could still get the approval points if you listened to and then rejected Torpor's proposal .

You get no approval for simply listening to the offer, you get it for agreeing to help and thus initially not killing Torpor. You can subsequently refuse to honor the deal and kill the demon in the very end of the quest though, I am not sure what happens to approvals in this case.

Xilizhra wrote...

Irrelevant. The demon was drawing off the power of a somniarus in its own Fade realm. The circumstance is unique

 
1. The realm belongs to the demons, not the somniari. They used his own memories to create it though.
2. There is absolutely no indication in the lore that the power of the demons is somehow affected by whether they have a somniari in their realm or not. In order to gain his power Torpor needs to possess him.
Not to mention that
3. Torpor is a sloth demon, and they are usually weaker than Pride demons (such as Wyrme or the demon that possessed Marethari).

Modifié par Koire, 03 mars 2012 - 11:38 .

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I don't know if I'd label Anders or MLK a drama queen, but I would consider labeling people on these forums such every once in a while.

And to be clear, nothing Anders suffered came close to the horrific and traumatic family tragedy you described, Plantiff. Anders was taken into custody by the tower at the age of twelve. He was not abused, tormented or assaulted any worse than any other Tower mage. I do not condone the actions or policies of the Tower, but there are many who seem very well adjusted, despite being imprisoned. As for his degraded mental state after absorbing Justice, I only have Merril's quote to say "All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't."

Oh, okay. So since Anders was only kidnapped, he has no excuse.

But I wasn't commenting on him specifically in that scenario in any case. It doesn't really matter if a character's specific issues are personal or political. As was merely demonstrating an attitude that is extremely prevalent amongst gamers.

I don't think we know enough about the mages to say that they are well-adjusted. Certainly most of them seem to be, depending on what you think that means, but I don't really consider that realistic. Frankly, it surprises me that there aren't more crazed blood mages.

And I don't percieve Anders as being in a degraded mental state.

[Koire]

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh, okay. So since Anders was only kidnapped, he has no excuse.

He was not kidnapped. He was given to the templars by his own parents. Which is actually worse, come to think of it.

"I was no more than twelve when they came for me. My mother wept when they fixed the chains to my wrists, but my father was glad to see me gone. He had been afraid, ever since the fire in the barn. Not just afraid of what I could do, but afraid of me, afraid my magic was punishment for whatever petty sins he imagined the Maker sat in judgment upon."

This is from his short story.

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 12:16 .

[Plaintiff]

Koire wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh, okay. So since Anders was only kidnapped, he has no excuse.

He was not kidnapped. He was given to the templars by his own parents. Which is actually worse, come to think of it.

"I was no more than twelve when they came for me. My mother wept when they fixed the chains to my wrists, but my father was glad to see me gone. He had been afraid, ever since the fire in the barn. Not just afraid of what I could do, but afraid of me, afraid my magic was punishment for whatever petty sins he imagined the Maker sat in judgment upon."

This is from his short story.

You're right, of course. I forgot that little detail.

That is worse. As bad as parents selling their children into human trafficking, if you ask me.

[TEWR]

It's funny how people expect Merrill to have overcome a Pride Demon's mind control when not even Wynne could overcome the Sloth Demon's mind control, and she was not only possessed at that point in time but also very attuned to the Fade.

And it's even funnier that no one recognizes that anything that the companions did in the Fade was stuff that they'd never do in the real world because it's completely out of character for them.