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[Koire]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's funny how people expect Merrill to have overcome a Pride Demon's mind control when not even Wynne could overcome the Sloth Demon's mind control, and she was not only possessed at that point in time but also very attuned to the Fade.

And it's even funnier that no one recognizes that anything that the companions did in the Fade was stuff that they'd never do in the real world because it's completely out of character for them.

I don't expect her to overcome a Pride Demon's control, neither Wyrme's, nor the one possessing Marethari. That's the whole point
I found companions' behavior in the Fade quite believable, and the order of betrayal itself (Pride:Merrill>Fenris>Varric, Desire:Isabela>Aveline) also makes sense to me. Were you hoping they would resist temptation?

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 01:03 .

[TEWR]

It would've been nice if some had resisted or at least demonstrated a clear "Something's off here..." vibe before the demon assumed direct control, but I don't really care about that quest because it's irrelevant to the actual characters and who they are in regards to how they'll act outside of the Fade.

The fact of the matter is that she never once said she wanted to release Audacity. She tells an aggresive Hawke that releasing Audacity isn't her intention. All she wanted to do was re-establish communications with him -- because she had gone 7 years without talking to him -- but was unsure of any possible ramifications that might happen because of that.

Really, she just wanted to make sure that she'd be safe. She just wanted to talk with Audacity and there wasn't any threat in doing so, but hey... better safe then sorry.

She tells Hawke that only a powerful spell could've freed Audacity, but we don't even know if she knew which spell was needed. Just that we know she knew a powerful spell was needed.

Additionally, Audacity was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue so he couldn't even touch Merrill if he wanted to. The Eluvians link beyond the Fade and Thedas, as Morrigan told us.

I'll give you fair warning, Koire. I defend Merrill vehemently =P.


EDIT: Taken from the Merrill, she's a Keeper thread where I talked about the Feynriel quest in question:

Oh sure, let's call out Merrill for her betrayal! While we're at it, let's say that Aveline doesn't truly love Donnic because she wants her dead husband Wesley back! Or while we're at it, let's say that Varric would sell out his friends for revenge against the person who sold him out! Or hey, let's say that Fenris would stoop to the level of the magisters he so fervently hates because he's so intent on revenge!

I could go on an on. Night Terrors has both demons mind control the companions and forces them to betray Hawke by doing things that directly go against their character.

Merrill would never actually work with a demon. She's all about playing demons before they can play you. She would never let one possess her. Despite what many think, she is not an idiot. She's actually very astute and philosophical.

Likewise, Aveline acknowledges that Wesley's dead and she knows nothing can change that. Yet she sides with the Desire demon anyway! This goes directly against what she states are the true facts about her husband Wesley!

Then for Varric, not only is he a Dwarf -- and is thus naturally cut off from the Fade and resistant to magic -- but he admits that he would never side with a demon over Hawke while conscious and sober (he was joking, but the point is he gave Hawke a vow). Varric takes pride in the fact that he's the good brother, the one that wouldn't ever sell out his friends or family for whatever reason. Yet I don't see anyone using his betrayal against anything he does. Why? Because his betrayal in the Fade goes directly against his character.

Fenris has experience amongst the Tevinter Magisters and abhors not only magic but any mage that works with a demon. And the demon promised him the ability to be a mage on par with the Magisters. This goes directly against his character. Yet people don't slander Fenris with this betrayal to back up their claims. Additionally, he already has magic. His blood has the blood of a mage from sometime in his family's history and the lyrium grants him the ability to perform magic.

Hell for further evidence, look at Caress! Caress used the desire of the Harimann family to manipulate them and mind control them! Caress herself says she could plant desire in a person if she wanted to, but it's far easier to use existing desire to control a person. Who's to say that Wryme didn't plant pride in the companions and then manipulated them into siding with him?

Again, I could go on and on. Oh, but I guess because Merrill's a mage her betrayal automatically goes against her. Should she have maybe recognized that something was off or at least tried to refuse the demon? Maybe, but the demon did mind control her into doing what it wanted by using whatever pride she possibly held during Act II (which by Act III, has severely diminished)

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mars 2012 - 01:23 .

[Rifneno]

Koire wrote...

I will state beforehand that I'm not a Merrill's hater

Ditto. I can see why people like her. She's means well and she's got a huge heart. But she's not without her faults and she's certainly not capable of dealing with demons without consequence like she thinks she is.

Knowledge is always dangerous in child's hands.

That reminds me, what was it Flemeth said to her in Act I? Something about stumbling about blindly? The omniscient witch basically said Merrill doesn't have any idea what she's doing. Yeah...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's funny how people expect Merrill to have overcome a Pride Demon's mind control when not even Wynne could overcome the Sloth Demon's mind control, and she was not only possessed at that point in time but also very attuned to the Fade.

The difference is, Wynne doesn't see the Fade as a gameshow where she can win fabulous prizes by outsmarting all the demons. Merrill does.

But you bring up an interesting point. If being possessed by a spirit doesn't make one immune to demonic temptation, that means Anders legitimately resisted their lure. The other companions aren't taught to resist demons because only mages ever have to. So why didn't Merrill if Anders could?

And it's even funnier that no one recognizes that anything that the companions did in the Fade was stuff that they'd never do in the real world because it's completely out of character for them.

That's kind of the point of demons screwing with your head isn't it?

Oh sure, let's call out Merrill for her betrayal! While we're at it, let's say that Aveline doesn't truly love Donnic because she wants her dead husband Wesley back! Or while we're at it, let's say that Varric would sell out his friends for revenge against the person who sold him out! Or hey, let's say that Fenris would stoop to the level of the magisters he so fervently hates because he's so intent on revenge!

None of them are trained to resist demons, and none of them claim they can. Still, agreed about Aveline and Fenris.

Merrill would never actually work with a demon. She's all about playing demons before they can play you. She would never let one possess her. Despite what many think, she is not an idiot. She's actually very astute and philosophical.

LOL. Yes, she thinks she can outwit every demon she meets. SHE'S WRONG. She's a typical teenager who thinks she knows everything and all the grown ups are idiots who won't shut up about non-existent risks.

Like I said earlier. She REEKS of having already fallen to pride.

[TEWR]

That reminds me, what was it Flemeth said to her in Act I? Something about stumbling about blindly? The omniscient witch basically said Merrill doesn't have any idea what she's doing. Yeah...

I took that to mean that the path to restoring the Eluvian was fine, but her thinking that the clan will accept what she's doing is what she meant by the whole "eyes shut" thing.

The difference is, Wynne doesn't see the Fade as a gameshow where she can win fabulous prizes by outsmarting all the demons. Merrill does.

What Wynne and Merrill believe is irrelevant. Wynne is a senior mage who has faced demons left and right and is also a Spirit Healer, which means she has to be even more vigilant against them.

But you bring up an interesting point. If being possessed by a spirit doesn't make one immune to demonic temptation, that means Anders legitimately resisted their lure. The other companions aren't taught to resist demons because only mages ever have to. So why didn't Merrill if Anders could?

I think it's more that Justice just took over Anders completely at that moment and not that he resisted. He said that he's been avoiding the Fade for a while and he admits that he doesn't know what would happen if he went back there.

That's kind of the point of demons screwing with your head isn't it?

It's something a lot of people don't seem to grasp when they bring up Merrill's so called "betrayal".

None of them are trained to resist demons, and none of them claim they can. Still, agreed about Aveline and Fenris.

As far as we know. If I may speculate, Aveline was married to a Templar and in her short story where she met Wesley she fought a demon or an Abomination or something. I can't recall.

Anyway, she may have been taught some things by Wesley.

And for Fenris -- again, me speculating -- he has mage blood running through his veins as well as lyrium grafted into his skin. He also says to Flemeth that he's seen Demons and Abominations before.

The former may just be restricted to enslaved demons, but he doesn't really specify.

LOL. Yes, she thinks she can outwit every demon she meets. SHE'S WRONG. She's a typical teenager who thinks she knows everything and all the grown ups are idiots who won't shut up about non-existent risks.

Like I said earlier. She REEKS of having already fallen to pride.

While I agree that I don't think she can outwit every demon, she's not necessarily wrong for Audacity. He could outwit him, because he's trapped and his power is not that great.

She's half-right. You probably can't outwit every demon, but you can make it work to your advantage. Hawke and the Warden are both capable of doing such things, the former when he's advised by Merrill.

I don't think she's fallen to pride either. Pride would be her thinking she can outwit every demon. She thinks -- IIRC, as what you quoted me on was something I made many months ago when I played DAII my last time -- anyone can outwit a demon.

As I said, she's not wrong to think that they can be played. She's right. But it takes the right person to be able to do such a thing and I don't think she could outwit every demon. Audacity certainly, and maybe a good number of other demons. It depends on the relative strength of the demon. This would be one of the few instances where I would call her naive.

Like I said though, she could certainly outwit Audacity.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mars 2012 - 04:22 .

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Well, except Meredith is better looking and has a richer history.:happy: 

[Xilizhra]

But you bring up an interesting point. If being possessed by a spirit doesn't make one immune to demonic temptation, that means Anders legitimately resisted their lure. The other companions aren't taught to resist demons because only mages ever have to. So why didn't Merrill if Anders could?

The spirits are completely different. Wynne's is fairly passive and only shows up to heal Wynne if she's badly injured; Justice is active, angry and forceful, and really hates demons.

[dragonflight288]

That's the difference between Faith and Justice. Justice doesn't have patience. It's cold and hard. Swift and merciless. That is the very definition of justice as a virtue.

Faith is more long suffering belief, helping out others and that sort of thing...I think. Faith spirits are generally considered the most powerful according to the lore I remember, but are also exceptionally rare to find because they usually have absolutely no interest in mortals at all.

[Cody]

Rifneno wrote...

Merrill is an idiot, plain and simple. She can be a Barney Fife-type well meaning lovable idiot, but still... idiot.

The only people I can think of that have dealt with demons and gotten off scott free were PCs. Even Avernus wound up horribly screwing it up and he's... Dragon Age doesn't have "archmages" right? No? Yet Merrill wants to deal with demons. Not just when a reasonable person might think it's the only, slim chance of survive. Every. Time. Feynriel's demon was the best one. You're there just to free Feynriel. A demon wants you to help him get Feynriel, which Marethari said would produce an abomination of unimaginable power. Merrill wants to deal! The common defense for this is that people say "she just wants you to hear it out, she won't lose approval if you say no and attack after hearing it out." That's not true. She does lose approval if you hear it out and then kill it. Which makes sense since what the bloody hell reason would there be to hear it out regardless if you didn't want to make a deal with it?

There's two conclusions that can be drawn. Either Merrill thinks she's good enough to outsmart and out-deceive (is that a word?) demons all the time, or she thinks demons are cute and cuddly and only feed on the souls of the innocent because no one hugged them enough. Either conclusion is brainmelting stupid and the former reeks of pride so strongly you can smell it a mile away.

Edit:  Oh, I forgot to add.  Her supposed preparations and protections against the demons.  Where exactly did she learn them?  All she knows about magic she learned from Marethari and Audacity.  Obviously she didn't learn her demon protections from a demon, so did she learn from them Marethari?  The woman who screamed "this is too dangerous!" the entire game?  Because it doesn't seem like Marethari would know this uber demon countermeasure.  After all, why would she be screaming about the danger if there wasn't any?

Forum was being dumb yesterday. Page wouldn't even load.

 She is hardly an idiot. Never has she once made any stupid mistakes with demons. As both I an Ettheral have stressed in the past.  She has dealt with demons far longer than the Pcs or any mage we come across in DA2 and has been more pure than a friggin andrastian mage. The approval thing must be bugged. Because her not approving for hearing it out and then killing it would go against her character. Either that or you can only kill it by not hearing it out(been a while cant remember) then that is Biowares fault for not giving us the option to hear it out then kill it(DA2 lacking options? How out of character!) And no. She does not think she can keep constantly out smarting demons. Never has she said this. On the contrary she has always not trusted them. And very rarely is seen actually dealing with demons, aside from cleansing the mirror and opening a barrier. As for counter measures against the demon? Who says she didn't think of some on her own? She has had more than 7 years using blood magic and dealing with demons. It isn't hard to assume that she would pick up a thing or 2.

Koire wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Koire wrote...

The
grim irony is that she did not either Moreover, he in his turn tries
to warn her in the party banters. So I'd say they are even.

Yes
she did. For she was never possessed. And he was to only warn her if
she is set on rivalry. Otherwise she would say the other. But due to a
bug both banter happen.

She wasn't possessed only because Marethari saved her.
Err, I was speaking about this banter:

Anders: It's not a good feeling, you know.
Merrill: What?
Anders: Being an abomination. I just got a taste of your future.
Merrill: I'm not that foolish. Our relationship is, um, strictly platonic.
Anders: It's like you're trapped in your own body, seeing out your eyes, while someone else moves you like a puppet.
Anders:
And you're trying to scream, to move a single muscle, but there's no
escape. Until you look down at the blood on your hands...
Merrill: Stop it. You're scaring me.
Anders: That's the point.

It always triggers after Dissent in Act 2, there are no other requirements. Which one did you mean?

LOL
Only because that idiot saved her? BULL ****. She would have been fine.
If on the odd chance she would ahve been possessed she would have had
Hawke and co kill her. That is why she brought them with her. She
thought of it before hand. Even then she was only planning on talking
with it. Marethari was just being an idiot (AGAIN) by letting the demon
possess her. As for the banter you posted? Yes that is what I am talking
about. That was only to appear if Merrill was a Rival. Otherwise the
other banter were to appear. But due to a bug they both happen :/



Edit: Sorry if the grammer is a bit off. I had to type these replies in my search browser while I waited for the page to load. Sadly it never did and I had to copy and paste this in a text file while I waited for the forum to get fixed. Though judging by the replies I kept receiving in my inbox I am guessing no one else had any problems posting on here yesterday?

Modifié par CodyMelch, 04 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[Koire]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux

I can't recall any references in the lore to demons having some sort of "mind control" that they apply exclusively in the Fade and are unable to apply in the mortal realm. They just make their offers, and these offers are tempting enough. When speaking about demons you can't trust what a person says beforehand, you must know what he/she feels and wishes. This is where we can only make assumptions. My best guess - Audacity would offer help in exchange for possession and Merrill would agree. You are free to make your own assumptions, of course)

Oh sure, let's call out Merrill for her betrayal! While we're at it, let's say that Aveline doesn't truly love Donnic because she wants her dead husband Wesley back! Or while we're at it, let's say that Varric would sell out his friends for revenge against the person who sold him out! Or hey, let's say that Fenris would stoop to the level of the magisters he so fervently hates because he's so intent on revenge!

Exactly.
Merrill is the first to succumb to pride because she devoted all her life to restoring the shared pride of her people. She says (and believes) she is helping her people, but in fact she is driven by the desire to get just another piece of the glorious past stolen from the group she belongs to and associates herself with (the elves). She doesn't even know what it is and is it useful or harmful - it is not important to her. Were she interested in the history or geography of Thedas at large, like, say, Genitivi, I would think it's curiosity. But it isn't. This is what the demon uses.
Fenris is shouting out loudly "I am not a slave", but he doesn't feel free. What the demon offers is the ability to finally restore his damaged pride and claim what Fenris believes is rightfully his.
Varric is the hardest to "corrupt", but don't you think he has at least a little envy to his brother? Remember the scene when he tries to trick Cassandra... I am the best and the smartest, and mother loved me more or something. It is there, deep within.
The explanation of Izzy's actions is obvious so I would not dwell on it.
For Aveline, if you speak to her afterwards she explains that it was not the desire to have Wesley as her husband, but rather the desire to make the wrong right: Aveline believes she "falied him" and desires to make up for this falure of old.

Simply put, all people have their weak points and none is safe. That seems pretty real to me, it is in the nature of men (or elves). IMHO)

dragonflight288 wrote...
Faith spirits are generally considered the most powerful according to the lore I remember, but are also exceptionally rare to find because they usually have absolutely no interest in mortals at all.

As far as I remember, the spirits of Compassion are the most powerful. These are the spirits that aid spirit healers.

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 03:25 .

[dragonflight288]

Exactly.
Merrill is the first to succumb to pride because she devoted all her life to restoring the shared pride of her people. She says (and believes) she is helping her people, but in fact she is driven by the desire to get just another piece of the glorious past stolen from the group she belongs to and associates herself with (the elves). She doesn't even know what it is and is it useful or harmful - it is not important to her. Were she interested in the history or geography of Thedas at large, like, say, Genitivi, I would think it's curiosity. But it isn't. This is what the demon uses.
Fenris is shouting out loudly "I am not a slave", but he doesn't feel free. What the demon offers is the ability to finally restore his pride and claim what Fenris believes is rightfully his.
Varric is the hardest to "corrupt", but don't you think he has at least a little envy to his brother? Remember the scene when he tries to trick Cassandra... I am the best and the smartest, and mother loved me more or something. It is there, deep within.
The explanation of Izzy's actions is obvious so I would not dwell on it.
For Aveline, if you speak to her afterwards she explains that it was not the desire to have Wesley as her husband, but rather the desire to make the wrong right: Aveline believes she "falied him" and desires to make up for this falure of old.
Simply put, all people have their weak points and none is safe. That seems pretty real to me, it is in the nature of men (or elves). IMHO)

She may be the first, but she is not the only. And she is the most sincere in the apology afterwards. Fenris blames Hawke for taking him into the Fade and also gives into temptation for power. And the only thing keeping him from feeling free is himself. He blames magic for all his problems and if that sequence is to be believed, he is no better than the magisters he hates. Aveline doesn't love Donnic at all if she is to be believed in the Fade. Isabella likes big ships-nuff said.

Does anyone else call them out on this? Nope. Merrill may be the first, but I as a Merrill-shipper am well aware she has a lot of pride. She's proud of her work, she's proud of the Dalish and only wants to help them. Her goals are far more noble than Fenris or Aveline's. No one calls them out on their betrayal. Or Varric.

[Koire]

dragonflight288 wrote...

She may be the first, but she is not the only. And she is the most sincere in the apology afterwards. Fenris blames Hawke for taking him into the Fade and also gives into temptation for power. And the only thing keeping him from feeling free is himself. He blames magic for all his problems and if that sequence is to be believed, he is no better than the magisters he hates. Aveline doesn't love Donnic at all if she is to be believed in the Fade. Isabella likes big ships-nuff said. 

Does anyone else call them out on this? Nope. Merrill may be the first, but I as a Merrill-shipper am well aware she has a lot of pride. She's proud of her work, she's proud of the Dalish and only wants to help them. Her goals are far more noble than Fenris or Aveline's. No one calls them out on their betrayal. Or Varric.

Who is more sincere is the matter of taste. Fenris blames Hawke only on rivalry path, on friendship path he takes all the blame. But I agree that he is no better than the magisters he hates. Re Aveline see above, it was not about love at all, it was about her duty to her former husband. 

I do call all of them out on this)

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 03:31 .

[Koire]

CodyMelch wrote...
The approval thing must be bugged. Because her not approving for hearing it out and then killing it would go against her character. Either that or you can only kill it by not hearing it out(been a while cant remember) then that is Biowares fault for not giving us the option to hear it out then kill it

This is not a bug, the idea is that Torpor says he won't do harm to anyone in the mortal realm and he just wants power in the Fade, against his own kind. And Merrill believes him. You can hear him out and then kill him, I've just done it recently. You get some curious lines from Justice if you do it this way, btw.

LOL
Only because that idiot saved her? BULL ****. She would have been fine.
If on the odd chance she would ahve been possessed she would have had
Hawke and co kill her. That is why she brought them with her. She
thought of it before hand. Even then she was only planning on talking
with it. Marethari was just being an idiot (AGAIN) by letting the demon
possess her. As for the banter you posted? Yes that is what I am talking
about. That was only to appear if Merrill was a Rival. Otherwise the
other banter were to appear. But due to a bug they both happen :

I believe she wouldn't. She would be possessed and killed by Hawke. Marethari was possessed and killed by Hawke instead. She did it because she loved her former apprentice.
Ah, ok. I had her as a rival in all my playthroughs, so I wouldn't notice anyway

PS Wasn't this topic about Meredith and Anders? 

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 03:56 .

[dragonflight288]

Yes it was. Good times, switching subjects.

[Koire]

So..

General User wrote...

Anders WILL eventually turn on those he claims to be fighting for.  Just like every fanatic does who doesn't turn away from their path.  The problem with Anders is, thanks to his merger with Justice, he can't turn away.

Well, why would he? Turning on mages would be "unjust", our sparking friend could allow it only 1. if supressed (like when you make Anders a 100% rival and force him to side with the templars), but I doubt Anders can shut him out for a long period of time, or 2. if both of them are completely out of control and can't even recognize that the one standing next to them is a mage (Ella's case), but I don't think that is Anders' mental state in the end of Act 3 on the friendship path.

Disclaimer   : none of my Hawkes made him a rival and then sided with the mages, and when you side with the templars he dies anyway (either you kill him or he commits suicide), so I'm not prepared to discuss what would he do if left alive on the rivalry path. My best guess - it would be a mess. I spare him if he is a friend though.

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[General User]

Koire wrote...

So..

General User wrote...

Anders WILL eventually turn on those he claims to be fighting for.  Just like every fanatic does who doesn't turn away from their path.  The problem with Anders is, thanks to his merger with Justice, he can't turn away.

Well, why would he? Turning on mages would be "unjust", our sparking friend could allow it only 1. if supressed (like when you make Anders a 100% rival and force him to side with the templars), but I doubt Anders can shut him out for a long period of time, or 2. if both of them are completely out of control and can't even recognize that the one standing next to them is a mage (Ella's case), but I don't think that is Anders' mental state in the end of Act 3 on the friendship path.

Disclaimer   : none of my Hawkes made him a rival and then sided with the mages, and when you side with the templars he dies anyway (either you kill him or he commits suicide), so I'm not prepared to discuss what would he do if left alive on the rivalry path. My best guess - it would be a mess. I spare him if he is a friend though.

umm... I don't think you're getting it.  In Anders' mind, all his actions would be (at least) justified, if not just.

As of the end of ActIII, Anders' already proven that he's willing to murder innocent people to advance his political agenda.  For some one who's willing to do that, rooting out "enemies of the revolution from our own ranks" is actually (in a perverse sort of way) a step back.

Remember, he's done it before:in the cave with Ella. Vengeance wanted to kill the girl for "allowing" those Templars to attempt to rape her.  As time goes on, as the lines between Anders, Justice, and Vengeance become ever more blurry, such instincts will come closer and closer to the surface of Anders' personality and Anders' will start to vent his (in his mind) righteous fury on those who are (again, in his mind) insufficiently dedicated to the cause.  It's a magical version of things that occur to one extent or another in every revolution.

Modifié par General User, 05 mars 2012 - 12:37 .

[dragonflight288]

Remember, he's done it before:in the cave with Ella. Vengeance wanted to kill the girl for "allowing" those Templars to attempt to rape her. As time goes on, as the lines between Anders, Justice, and Vengeance become ever more blurry, such instincts will come closer and closer to the surface of Anders' personality and Anders' will start to vent his (in his mind) righteous fury on those who are (again, in his mind) insufficiently dedicated to the cause. It's a magical version of things that occur to one extent or another in every revolution.

Actually he wanted to kill her for calling him a demon and figured she was one of them, touched by their belief. But I was going to make the exact same point.

[TEWR]

Koire wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux

I can't recall any references in the lore to demons having some sort of "mind control" that they apply exclusively in the Fade and are unable to apply in the mortal realm. They just make their offers, and these offers are tempting enough.

Wynne, Alistair, Zevran, Leliana, and Oghren are all the proof one needs. If an ex-Templar and a Senior Enchanter of the Circle can be so easily controlled, then demons can mind control people in the Fade.

It is -- after all -- their dominion.

When speaking about demons you can't trust what a person says beforehand, you must know what he/she feels and wishes. This is where we can only make assumptions. My best guess - Audacity would offer help in exchange for possession and Merrill would agree. You are free to make your own assumptions, of course)

I'm free to use what's fact about Merrill. She explicitly says that she doesn't want to free Audacity and won't free Audacity to an aggressive Hawke.

Exactly.
Merrill is the first to succumb to pride because she devoted all her life to restoring the shared pride of her people. She says (and believes) she is helping her people, but in fact she is driven by the desire to get just another piece of the glorious past stolen from the group she belongs to and associates herself with (the elves). She doesn't even know what it is and is it useful or harmful - it is not important to her. Were she interested in the history or geography of Thedas at large, like, say, Genitivi, I would think it's curiosity. But it isn't. This is what the demon uses.

1) She does know what the Eluvians can do, insofar as to what is common knowledge about them. They can be used for long-distance communication. The only person that definitively knows more about them is Morrigan and she had an entire tome devoted to the Eluvians themselves to go off of (which was written in all Elvish).

2) The Eluvians are a part of the history of Thedas. Before the humans came and destroyed Elven society.

3) You are using mind control by a demon as proof that Merrill focuses more on the Eluvian then her friends, which just isn't true. She values her friends more then anything, despite her obsession with the Eluvian pre-Act 3. If she's kidnapped in Best Served Cold and romanced, she says the one thing she couldn't live without was Hawke.

Not the Eluvian. Hawke. That is not a person who is obsessed with the mirror. At least, not at that moment. She was obsessed before, but she eventually overcomes the obsession and makes it a dedicated project, which isn't the same thing.

Fenris is shouting out loudly "I am not a slave", but he doesn't feel free. What the demon offers is the ability to finally restore his damaged pride and claim what Fenris believes is rightfully his.

Fenris doesn't feel free because he keeps living in the past instead of looking towards the future. On rivalry this is especially evident, as he becomes embittered towards Hawke and keeps reliving the old memories. On friendship, he begins a steady pace towards tossing away those memories and moving forward.

It's why I feel that Friendship will be the one that allows him to be nicer to all mages unless they prove they aren't deserving.

Again, it's all mind control. Because Fenris acknowledges that something is wrong about the entire situation he's being put in by the demon before he "goes to the Dark Side".

Varric is the hardest to "corrupt", but don't you think he has at least a little envy to his brother? Remember the scene when he tries to trick Cassandra... I am the best and the smartest, and mother loved me more or something. It is there, deep within.

.....

No I don't think he's "envious" of his brother. He's resentful. You shouldn't be using a common element of unreliable narrators to back up your point imo.

The Pride Demon played more on him being the good brother, the one who wouldn't betray his friends or family for a lousy idol.

And that's why Varric resents Bartrand. Because Bartrand betrayed the people close to him for wealth, which in the end corrupted his mind.

So it's an issue of pride and pride only. No envy. No jealousy. Those would imply he would be more susceptible to a Desire demon, because he would want to be more like Bartrand or gain more recognition. 

Again, you shouldn't be using anything that happens in the Fade to back up your point, because it's all mind control.

For Aveline, if you speak to her afterwards she explains that it was not the desire to have Wesley as her husband, but rather the desire to make the wrong right: Aveline believes she "falied him" and desires to make up for this falure of old.

And she admits that her mind was stripped of all control.

Simply put, all people have their weak points and none is safe. That seems pretty real to me, it is in the nature of men (or elves). IMHO)

If it was happening in the real world and was of their own volition to betray Hawke for what they wanted, then sure. But it isn't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[Koire]

General User wrote...

umm... I don't think you're getting it.  In Anders' mind, all his actions would be (at least) justified, if not just.

Mm, why is he so upset after the Dissent then? He didn't seem ok with what had happened. Apart from the dialogue after the quest itself there are quite a few banters.

Merrill: Are you all right?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

(If Ella was killed during Dissent)
Anders: Can I ask you something, Aveline?
Aveline: I cannot look the other way when mages break the law--
Anders: That's not what I was going to ask.
Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?
Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.
Anders: Yes. I'd like to... attend the funeral. Do something.
Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin.
Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

Fenris: I seem to recall you saying something a while ago...
Anders: Shut up.
Fenris: "I can control it." Wasn't that what you said?
Anders: So help me...

Varric: Oh, cheer up, Blondie. You're making me cry just looking at you.
Anders: Don't.
Varric: You made a mistake. It happens.
Anders: I almost killed a girl.
Varric: You've killed two-hundred and fifty-four by my last count. Plus about five hundred men, a few dozen giant spiders, and at least two demons.
Anders: It's not the same.
Varric: Why? Because this one you feel bad about? Maybe that's the problem.

He changes his mind on the Black City when presented with Corypheus' amulet.

"May be the Grand Cleric is more reasonable than I thought?" "May be the Chantry knows more than I thought?" etc (I don't remember the exact quotes but it was something along these lines)

And he wants to die after blowing the Chantry, either because he feels helpless to control Vengeance (rivalry), or because he wants the victims to receive justice in the form of his death (friendship).

Doesn't sound like a person who sincerely believes all his actions are justified by definition to me. Don't get me wrong, I do not imply that he doesn't believe that many are.

Remember, he's done it before:in the cave with Ella. Vengeance wanted to kill the girl for "allowing" those Templars to attempt to rape her.

It was already answered, but I will write it too. He wanted to kill her because she called him "a demon", which enraged him to such a degree that he was unable to realise who she was at all.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[Koire]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux

I wanted to reply in detail, but then I thought it is not necessary, because I think I know what it is all about:
-I believe that every person has an ugly side and it can be revealed. What matters is what is offered. Every person also has something beautiful within, and it can be revealed as well. Proportions of the glorious mixture called a human differ greatly among individuals, though.
-You seem to imply (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are at least some people (or elves) who can be deemed uncorruptable. If they succumb to their pride and desires, it is because demons force them to do it, not because of their inherent flaws.
Thus, further arguing about Merrill and the Night Terrors makes no sense as we will never agree due to an unresolvable difference in the level of cynicism 

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 12:12 .

[General User]

Koire wrote...

General User wrote...
umm... I don't think you're getting it.  In Anders' mind, all his actions would be (at least) justified, if not just.

Mm, why is he so upset after the Dissent then? He didn't seem ok with what had happened. Apart from the dialogue after the quest itself there are quite a few banters.

Merrill: Are you all right?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

(If Ella was killed during Dissent)
Anders: Can I ask you something, Aveline?
Aveline: I cannot look the other way when mages break the law--
Anders: That's not what I was going to ask.
Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?
Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.
Anders: Yes. I'd like to... attend the funeral. Do something.
Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin.
Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

Fenris: I seem to recall you saying something a while ago...
Anders: Shut up.
Fenris: "I can control it." Wasn't that what you said?
Anders: So help me...

Varric: Oh, cheer up, Blondie. You're making me cry just looking at you.
Anders: Don't.
Varric: You made a mistake. It happens.
Anders: I almost killed a girl.
Varric: You've killed two-hundred and fifty-four by my last count. Plus about five hundred men, a few dozen giant spiders, and at least two demons.
Anders: It's not the same.
Varric: Why? Because this one you feel bad about? Maybe that's the problem.

He was very upset... and did nothing, except build a bomb.

Koire wrote...
He changes his mind on the Black City when presented with Corypheus' amulet.

"May be the Grand Cleric is more reasonable than I thought?" "May be the Chantry knows more than I thought?" etc (I don't remember the exact quotes but it was something along these lines)

And he wants to die after blowing the Chantry, either because he feels helpless to control Vengeance (rivalry), or because he wants the victims to receive justice in the form of his death (friendship).

Proof in point: Anders knows what he did was wrong, but he did it anyways.

Koire wrote...
Doesn't sound like a person who sincerely believes all his actions are justified by definition to me. Don't get me wrong, I do not imply that he doesn't believe that many are.

That's the problem.  He believes his actions are justified when they, in fact, are not.

Koire wrote...

Remember, he's done it before:in the cave with Ella. Vengeance wanted to kill the girl for "allowing" those Templars to attempt to rape her.

It was already answered, but I will write it too. He wanted to kill her because she called him "a demon", which enraged him to such a degree that he was unable to realise who she was at all.

Like dragonflight288 said, he also said Ella was touched by the Templars beliefs.  How many more people (mages and non-mages) have, in Anders' increasingly delusional mind, been "tainted" by those beliefs do you think?  How many more will Anders kill if no one stops him?

Modifié par General User, 05 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[Koire]

General User wrote...
He was very upset... and did nothing, except build a bomb.
Proof in point: Anders knows what he did was wrong, but he did it anyways.
That's the problem.  He believes his actions are justified when they, in fact, are not.

Well, I don't think what he did (if you are speaking about the Chantry) was entirely wrong, it was necessary at that point. Not that it was a nice choice to make, but I am not sure that I wouldn't do the same in such a situation.

Like dragonflight288 said, he also said Ella was touched by the Templars beliefs.  How many more people (mages and non-mages) have, in Anders' increasingly delusional mind, been "tainted" by those beliefs do you think?  How many more will Anders kill if no one stops him?

This is obviously the case of YMMV, because I don't think that he is "increasingly delusional" to the extent that you imagine. I think Chantry blowing was quite a rational choice to make, not that "I am completely crazy and I want to destroy that large building because it is filled with priests and I hate 'em"  He needed to eliminate Elthina and all revered mothers for Meredith to invoke ROA without proper justification.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 12:21 .

[General User]

Koire wrote...

General User wrote...
He was very upset... and did nothing, except build a bomb.
Proof in point: Anders knows what he did was wrong, but he did it anyways.
That's the problem.  He believes his actions are justified when they, in fact, are not.

Well, I don't think what he did (if you are speaking about the Chantry) was entirely wrong, it was necessary at that point. Not that it was a nice choice to make, but I am not sure that I wouldn't do the same in such a situation.

It was murdering innocent people and destroying a house of worship along with a decent bit of the town.

Koire wrote...

Like dragonflight288 said, he also said Ella was touched by the Templars beliefs.  How many more people (mages and non-mages) have, in Anders' increasingly delusional mind, been "tainted" by those beliefs do you think?  How many more will Anders kill if no one stops him?

This is obviously the case of YMMV, because I don't think that he is "increasingly delusional" to the extent that you imagine. I think Chantry blowing was quite a rational choice to make, not that "I am completely crazy and I want to destroy that large building because it is filled with priests and I hate 'em"  He needed to eliminate Elthina and all revered mothers for Meredith to invoke ROA without proper justification.

You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs?  Tell me then, what's the number of innocent bystanders that would have to be callously killed before Anders' actions did become unacceptable to you?  Is there even a number?

Modifié par General User, 05 mars 2012 - 12:31 .

[Koire]

General User wrote...
It was murdering innocent people and destroying a house of worship along with a decent bit of the town.
You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs?  Tell me then, what's the number of innocent bystanders that would have to be callously killed before Anders' actions did become unacceptable to you?  Is there even a number?

A house of worship is just a building, like any other. There is no proof that a decent bit of the town was destroyed, we can be 100% sure only that the Chantry was. There was a heated discussion about the number of innocents on the russian forums some months ago and one of the users asked David Gaider if there were orphans in the Chantry. The reply was "There were priests inside the Chantry, and possibly a number of templars and lay-persons, but orphans? The Kirkwall Chantry was not an orphanage, so I've no idea where the "five hundred orphans" thing comes from." Priests, templars and lay persons. It would be great if David could confirm that the quote actually belongs to him, because it was only cited, although the russian community takes that as granted. I think a lot of discussions here would end very abruptly if it is true)

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[TEWR]

I think it proves only that all of them have their weak points.

They're not betraying the Warden. They're being mind-controlled into believing what the demon creates and says.

Alistair believes he's with his sister and her family enjoying mince-meat pies.

Wynne believes she's still in the Circle as she gazes upon the apparent corpses of Circle Mages.

Oghren believes he's in Tapster's, being ridiculed by other Dwarves.

Leliana believes she's at the Chantry.

And Zevran believes he's back with the Crows.

None of those things are them betraying the Warden. But they are being mind-controlled.

You are free to trust that she knows what she wants, you mean. I am free not to trust that

I don't see why anyone wouldn't trust her. She knew what she wanted. She knew what she was going to do. She said that she just wanted to converse with the demon, who was her last option. She had exhausted all other options.

Conversing with a trapped demon that has little power is not risky. Hence why she believes nothing will happen, but she still wants to err on the side of caution anyway.

We don't even know if she knew the spell needed to free the demon. Only that she knew a powerful spell was needed. But we do know that Marethari knew the spell. And we do know that Marethari went there with the intention of freeing the demon.

We also know that Marethari spread baseless lies to the clan in an attempt to make them fear her, and then had the audacity -- pun always intended because it demonstrates her negative pride -- to ask Merrill to return, as if everything would go back to normal.

I meant, she doesn't know exactly if the eluvians are useful or harmful (and neither do we). And she is fascinated by the possibility to restore elven past, the eluvian is just a token of this past and this is the major reason why it is valuable to her, not its potential uses. Not that she can't have other reasons too.
Was I saying that Merrill is a fanatic obsessed by the mirror? Good people also make mistakes, you know)

We do know they're useful and not harmful actually. Morrigan told us in Witch Hunt that they link beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.

Which automatically proves Marethari's assertions that the demon would've used the Eluvian as a gateway wrong.

Morrigan also says that the OGB -- if it exists in a person's playthrough -- is on the other side. I doubt she would've tossed a 1.5 year old untrained baby across a portal and gone through herself -- possibly with the Warden I might add -- if the other side was dangerous, especially after she was studying them for a while.

Yes, I fully agree re living in the past and friendship/rivalry. But looking in the past in his case means victimisation, and that in itself means - "severly damaged pride", no?

I'll admit, I don't know how to properly address this, for fear of being wrong in what I'll say. But I'll go ahead anyway

First, I haven't studied victimology so I don't know if victimization would damage a person's pride. But I do know that pride has two meanings.

Pride's two meanings: an inflated sense of self-worth -- the negative connotation -- and a feeling of self-respect and dignity -- the positive connotation.

Demons prey on the vices of humanity. In this case, the positive connotation of pride is not something a Pride Demon would prey upon methinks, simply because it isn't a vice. Only when it becomes an excessive sense of self-worth would they prey upon it.

Second, Caress admits that she can plant desire in a person if she wanted. By extension, this is true for all other demons (or at least the more intelligent ones above Rage Demons). Wryme claims he is the greatest of his kind. This could just be a part of his excessive pride given his nature, but he could've easily planted pride in Fenris if he wanted.

Third, as I said earlier I don't think that's what the demon preyed upon anyway, simply because the pride you describe that would be damaged isn't the negative aspect, but rather the positive one.

However, he does say after the Fade that he thought himself above such influence. There's your negative aspect of Pride. He thinks he could stand above a demon's temptations. That seems to be what the demon preyed off of. How Fenris thought himself above a demon's temptations and the notion that he could be just as bad as any of the Magisters.

Fourth, it's mind control -- as many of the companions and even Hawke state -- so it doesn't count towards their actual character and what they'd do in the real world, which is what you and I have been arguing this whole time.

You believed that Merrill -- and by extension the rest of the companions -- would betray Hawke in an instant in the real world simply because they were mind controlled into doing so in the Fade.

What they did was stuff that was out of character for them and shouldn't be taken as evidence of what they'd do in the real world if they were in control of their actions.

Imho every person in the real world has an ugly side and it can be revealed, no mind control is necessary for that. What matters is what is offered. Every person also has something beautiful within, and it can also be revealed. If you disagree with that notion itself, further arguing makes no sense as we will never agree

Of course most people have their ugly sides and it can be revealed without mind control. But that's irrelevant to this discussion. You think that Merrill -- and the other companions as well -- would so callously betray Hawke because of their pride or their desire.

That's not true. If it was, Aveline would've convened with Mages of the Circle in the hopes of bringing back her husband Wesley and killed Hawke if he tried to oppose her.

During Act II, Merrill did have pride. ALL Dalish have pride. Merrill however doesn't let her pride blind her to the world.

She's restoring the Eluvian for many reasons. Perhaps at first part of it was simply to be recognized, because that's all she's been groomed to do. From the day she went to the Sabrae clan at the age of 4, her entire life has been "This is how to be a Keeper." and "Restore Elven society".

She's doing what she was taught, by Marethari no less.

She's not about to betray Hawke in the real world to further her Eluvian restoration, especially when Hawke is supportive of her.

But other parts of it were to find out about Tamlen and Mahariel. After a while, both her pride that she was brought up with and her want to find out about those two vanish, and she just wants to finish what she started.

I could go on really, but it's all the same. I've made this argument dozens upon dozens of times before to many people -- sometimes the same people even!

-You seem to imply (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are at least some people (or elves) who can be deemed uncorruptable. If they succumb to their pride and desires, it is because demons force them to do it, not because of their inherent flaws.

Incorrect.

I never claimed nor implied that people don't have flaws -- nor even did I say Elves have no flaws -- but rather that those flaws displayed in the Fade cannot be held against the character when they were mind controlled into doing something they wouldn't otherwise have done.

Was Merrill prideful during Act II? Maybe somewhat, but not that much. I could cite a few dialogues that show how she isn't extremely prideful in both Act I and II alone. Namely how she says she'd be a horrible Keeper and would be horrible at being the popular girl in the Alienage.

By Act III though, her negative pride has vanished (almost) entirely. Depends on who you ask.

Merrill didn't betray Hawke because she wanted to, nor because of her flaws. Her flaws made her easier to be controlled by a demon into doing something she wouldn't have done otherwise.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2012 - 01:16 .

[Koire]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux 
Well, if you insist we can continue) I will not add "I think" or "in my opinion" after each sentence, but you may be sure it is there.

I don't see why anyone wouldn't trust her.

.. books, Wyrme, Torpor

Conversing with a trapped demon that has little power is not risky.

Conversing with any spirit or demon is risky. That is something Merrill says herself, btw. There is no proof that he has little power. 

We don't even know if she knew the spell needed to free the demon.

We don't know the opposite either. And we don't know if a spell is needed at all.

We also know that Marethari spread baseless lies to the clan in an attempt to make them fear her

Or told them among other things that she is a blood mage and may deal with demons in order to warn them...

We do know they're useful and not harmful actually. Morrigan told us in Witch Hunt that they link beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.Which automatically proves Marethari's assertions that the demon would've used the Eluvian as a gateway wrong.

.. link beyond Thedas to where exactly? Is this "another dimension" inhabited by someone nice? May be it is a realm full of demons. And Morrigan herself is too dangerous. I tend not to trust her.

Pride's two meanings: an inflated sense of self-worth -- the negative connotation -- and a feeling of self-respect and dignity -- the positive connotation.
Demons prey on the vices of humanity. In this case, the positive connotation of pride is not something a Pride Demon would prey upon methinks, simply because it isn't a vice. Only when it becomes an excessive sense of self-worth would they prey upon it.
Second, Caress admits that she can plant desire in a person if she wanted. By extension, this is true for all other demons (or at least the more intelligent ones above Rage Demons). Wryme claims he is the greatest of his kind. This could just be a part of his excessive pride given his nature, but he could've easily planted pride in Fenris if he wanted.
Third, as I said earlier I don't think that's what the demon preyed upon anyway, simply because the pride you describe that would be damaged isn't the negative aspect, but rather the positive one.
However, he does say after the Fade that he thought himself above such influence. There's your negative aspect of Pride. He thinks he could stand above a demon's temptations. That seems to be what the demon preyed off of. How Fenris thought himself above a demon's temptations and the notion that he could be just as bad as any of the Magisters.
Fourth, it's mind control -- as many of the companions and even Hawke state -- so it doesn't count towards their actual character and what they'd do in the real world, which is what you and I have been arguing this whole time.
You believed that Merrill -- and by extension the rest of the companions -- would betray Hawke in an instant in the real world simply because they were mind controlled into doing so in the Fade.
What they did was stuff that was out of character for them and shouldn't be taken as evidence of what they'd do in the real world if they were in control of their actions.

Pride is the feeling of self-worth, the connotations depend on whether this feeling is adequate or not. Demons pray on pride as it is.
I don't understand why actions in another realm do not count towards one's actual character. If under certain conditions (i.e. being the part of a vision... and as far as I remember, Morrigan and Sten were able to recognize that it was a vision) a person is able to do something, this is the part of his/her character. If you are saying that they wouldn't do something like that in a different situation, that is true, but in case of Merrill we are speaking about virtually the same situation (a pride demon and.. well, another pride demon). Wyrme did not create a vision for Merrill, he simply made an offer. Audacity would make an offer. What is the difference between the two in your opinion?
PS And where did I say that they will betray Hawke "in an instant"? This is a stretch.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 02:09 .