2008 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Let's add another angle on the eluvian argument. The Tevinter Imperium, after destroying Arlathan, took the Eluvians and tried to figure them out, but all they got was fancy telephones. Swift long-distance communication devices.

Now imagine if Merrill could provide that for all the Dalish. If every clan had a working eluvian with that function, Merethari's clan wouldn't have been stuck on Sundermount for a decade waiting for some other Dalish clan to find them and give them some halla. They could've just contacted the closest clan and been out within a year.

If if one clan finds an amazing discovery, they could let all the other clans know about it immediately instead of just once every ten years when the clans meet up again. Or if they're granted land (like Alistair does in Origins) then all the Dalish could hear about it and be on their way to settle it, rather than have many months and years pass for everyone to hear about and the prejudice against humans and elves ignite a conflict that ends up taking the land away by that time.

Ignoring the whole betrayal because of mind-control, Merrill is a wonderful person who would never willingly hurt another person. And she is doing what the Dalish should be doing. Working on restoring their lost technology, magics, and culture. That is whole point of the Dalish. Merethari seems content to ignore that.

PS And where did I say that they will betray Hawke "in an instant"? This is a stretch.

It was a pretty strong implication. You may have not meant it, but the tone was there.

but in case of Merrill we are speaking about virtually the same situation (a pride demon and.. well, another pride demon).

Also in the case of Merrill, we need to look at the differences of the Pride Demons. One was in the Fade, at full power and desperately wanted to possess Fenriel. Once his toy was taken away, he decided to use another, right then and there.

Then there's Audacity. Trapped outside the Fade for centuries and bound within a giant Buddha statute. If it had the power to escape, or influence the world around him, he would've. Okay, so he did influence both Merrill and Merethari, but it was Merethari the idiot who released him. And we can't take Merethari's word for what the demon was going to do because there is no evidence to support it, nor did Merethari ever once give a hint that was what was going to happen before being possessed. If she really cared for Merrill that much, why didn't she just go to the alienage and discuss with her why she felt the way she felt?

And Merethari did more than just tell the clan that Merrill was a blood mage. She also told them that she would bring back the darkspawn taint. That she would bring ruin on the clan. Pol was more afraid of Merrill than the Varterral despite not seeing her for years. And then he ran to his death. On whose information? Merethari's. And since Merethari has made sure the clan now hates her, then asks Merrill to return. Merrill would not have been welcomed there at all at that point.

It's a tragic story, but the blame (as many of her haters try to do) cannot be put entirely on Merrill. Does Merrill have pride? Yes. So does Anders and Varic and Fenris. And Hawke. And Meredith, and Merethari, and the Dalish, and the Dwarves. And the humans.

[TEWR]

.. books, Wyrme, Torpor

Books? What books? Tarohne's tomes? She disapproves of Hawke destroying knowledge and not because she wants to know what she's inside.

Merrill prides herself on knowledge and doesn't hold any stigmas towards where it came from. All knowledge is dangerous. And that's something Morrigan says.

Wryme -- as we've been discussing and I've said numerous times -- cannot be used as an example for why she can't be trusted. This extends to all of the companions as well.

Torpor... well that's just mind-boggling why you'd cite him as a reason why. She doesn't approve of Torpor possessing Feynriel. She approves of Hawke agreeing to help Torpor in exchange for knowledge against the demons, because she is a supporter of playing a demon before you get played.

That is not the same thing. She doesn't approve of Torpor possessing Feynriel.

Conversing with any spirit or demon is risky. That is something Merrill says herself, btw. There is no proof that he has little power.

Dealing with any spirit of the Fade is risky when they're free. When they're trapped, it's a whole different matter.

And you don't need to tell me what Merrill said in banter to Anders =P. I've used that line numerous times in my defense of her before.

As for little power, I believe this was addressed in her short story. Regardless, it's also addressed in game how he can't do anything because he's trapped.

We don't know the opposite either. And we don't know if a spell is needed at all.

Wrong. Merrill says that no one could just free him unless they used a powerful spell.

Or told them among other things that she is a blood mage and may deal with demons in order to warn them...

They already knew she was a blood mage. That was the reason she left the clan and was ousted. And it had absolutely nothing to do with my point.

The blood magic is only part of why she was shunned. The other part is that she was working on the Eluvian shard that was once part of what killed Tamlen and tainted and possibly/subsequently killed Mahariel. But she used the blood magic to amplify the healing magic Marethari had taught her -- which in its unamplified form was able to combat the taint in Mahariel, but not defeat it -- to cleanse it.

Then she was shunned even more when Marethari spread baseless lies about Merrill bringing back the taint from a cleansed shard. This drove the clan to act... well... idiotic.

It's idiotic when you spread those claims and ask the person you believe is tainted to return to the clan that now hates her and fears her. If Merrill was tainted -- which she wasn't -- she would either attract the Darkspawn, go off to find them, or become an Elven broodmother on Sundermount.

Not to mention she wouldn't be trusted or liked amongst the clan anymore because of what Marethari spread.

.. link beyond Thedas to where exactly? Is this "another dimension" inhabited by someone nice? May be it is a realm full of demons. And Morrigan herself is too dangerous. I tend not to trust her.

Demons exist solely in the Fade. Morrigan did her research. I'll trust her judgment. And she's not dangerous in the least.

Pride is the feeling of self-worth, the connotations come from the assessment of whether this feeling is adequate or not. Demons pray on pride as it is.

They prey on the vices of humanity. The positive connotation of pride can be described as Dignity, which would likely be what a Spirit would embody.

In fact, Pride is listed as a virtue as well as a vice.

So no, demons wouldn't prey on the positive connotation of Pride. Because it's a virtue. But they would prey on the connotation that is a vice.

I don't understand why actions in another realm do not count towards one's actual character.

It's not that they were in another realm. It's that they were mind-controlled into doing it. If they did it of their own volition in the Fade or the real world without a demon controlling their mind, then it could be attributed to their character.

If under certain conditions (i.e. being the part of a vision... and as far as I remember, Morrigan and Sten were able to recognize that it is a vision) a person is capable to do something, this is a part of his/her character.

No it isn't. Not if their character and their control over their actions is taken away from you.

If you were mind-controlled into killing your best friend against your will, would you say that is to be taken as a sign of your character? Would you say that you can never have a best friend again, because you'll kill them when your mind is your own?

If you are saying that they wouldn't do something like that in a different situation, that is true, but in case of Merrill we are speaking about virtually the same situation (a pride demon and.. well, another pride demon).

The situations are entirely different with only one similarity.

Differences

1) Merrill's dealing with Audacity in the real world. Wryme was in the Fade.
2) Audacity is trapped and cannot use his powers very much. Wryme is free in the Fade and can use his powers
3) Merrill was mind controlled into helpin Wryme. Merrill wasn't mind-controlled into helping Audacity.

Similarity

They both deal with Pride Demons.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2012 - 02:27 .

[TEWR]

Dragonflight288 wrote...

Now imagine if Merrill could provide that for all the Dalish. If every clan had a working eluvian with that function, Merethari's clan wouldn't have been stuck on Sundermount for a decade waiting for some other Dalish clan to find them and give them some halla. They could've just contacted the closest clan and been out within a year.

If if one clan finds an amazing discovery, they could let all the other clans know about it immediately instead of just once every ten years when the clans meet up again. Or if they're granted land (like Alistair does in Origins) then all the Dalish could hear about it and be on their way to settle it, rather than have many months and years pass for everyone

Also, this. I forgot to mention all of this.

[dragonflight288]

Demons exist solely in the Fade. Morrigan did her research. I'll trust her judgment. And she's not dangerous in the least.

This is probably the only thing I disagree with you in your argument. Morrigan is indeed very dangerous. I would hate to have her as my enemy. I'm more than happy having her on my side.

[Xilizhra]

You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs? Tell me then, what's the number of innocent bystanders that would have to be callously killed before Anders' actions did become unacceptable to you? Is there even a number?

Acceptable? I don't entirely think it was. Making me want to kill him despite him being useful in the future? None that I can think of.

[TEWR]

This is probably the only thing I disagree with you in your argument. Morrigan is indeed very dangerous. I would hate to have her as my enemy. I'm more than happy having her on my side.

Well, yea as your enemy she's dangerous. Anyone who's an enemy is dangerous by virtue of being your enemy.

But I meant since she's on your side she's not dangerous. She bears no ill will towards the Warden for anything.

Unless you stabbed her simply because she left after the battle, which seems a tad excessive if you ask me. She could've left after sleeping with the Warden and still have gotten the OGB, but she didn't.

*general you here*

[Koire]

Guys, relax, I am not putting the blame on anyone. And I am not telling that Merrill is "bad". Imho almost all companions are grey, they have their flaws and their merits. It does not preclude me from treating them nicely or trusting them or something. I don't believe in zealots or paragons of virtue, they do not exist)

Re eluvian - it could be useful. It could be dangerous. I am in the "better safe than sorry" camp, therefore I rejected Morrigan's offer, killed the Architect and made Merrill destroy the mirror. If you are willing to take the risk, you are welcome.

Also in the case of Merrill, we need to look at the differences of the Pride Demons. One was in the Fade, at full power and desperately wanted to possess Fenriel. Once his toy was taken away, he decided to use another, right then and there.
Then there's Audacity. Trapped outside the Fade for centuries and bound within a giant Buddha statute. If it had the power to escape, or influence the world around him, he would've.

What power did Wyrme use on Merrill? None. He simply told her what he could offer to her. I believe the situations are very similar.

If she really cared for Merrill that much, why didn't she just go to the alienage and discuss with her why she felt the way she felt?

May be because they discussed it before Merrill left?

And since Merethari has made sure the clan now hates her, then asks Merrill to return. Merrill would not have been welcomed there at all at that point.

That is true, but none of this would happen if Merrill did not decide to leave the clan in the first place.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 02:45 .

[General User]

Koire wrote...

General User wrote...
It was murdering innocent people and destroying a house of worship along with a decent bit of the town.
You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs?  Tell me then, what's the number of innocent bystanders that would have to be callously killed before Anders' actions did become unacceptable to you?  Is there even a number?

A house of worship is just a building, like any other. There is no proof that a decent bit of the town was destroyed, we can be 100% sure only that the Chantry was. There was a heated discussion about the number of innocents on the russian forums some months ago and one of the users asked David Gaider if there were orphans in the Chantry. The reply was "There were priests inside the Chantry, and possibly a number of templars and lay-persons, but orphans? The Kirkwall Chantry was not an orphanage, so I've no idea where the "five hundred orphans" thing comes from." Priests, templars and lay persons. It would be great if David could confirm that the quote actually belongs to him, because it was only cited, although the russian community takes that as granted. I think a lot of discussions here would end very abruptly if it is true)

I have no idea what you're referring to.  I'm not responsible for the opinions or beliefs of others.  If you have questions or comments about someone's else's posts you really need to ask them about that.  

Again: how many innocent bystanders would have to be killed before Anders' actions become unacceptable and/or morally wrong  to you? 

[TEWR]

That is true, but none of this would happen if Merrill did not decide to leave the clan in the first place.

She had to leave, because the clan was pissed at her for trying to restore the Eluvians. They were a part of Elven culture and the Dalish are supposed to do that.

What the clan failed to recognize was that the Eluvian didn't taint and kill Tamlen and Mahariel. The Taint within the Eluvian did that.

The Eluvian isn't automatically evil because it was tainted. The Taint is evil. The Eluvian isn't.

What power did Wyrme use on Merrill? None. He simply told her what he could offer to her. I believe the situations are very similar.

No offense, but you are deliberately ignoring the facts of the situation now. The companions, Hawke, myself, and dragonflight have clearly told you what the powers the demons used were.

Mind control.

[Koire]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Wrong. Merrill says that no one could just free him unless they used a powerful spell.

Could you tell me when exactly does she say that, please?

Demons exist solely in the Fade.

Do they? After reading Asunder I am not sure we know anything about demons with certainty.

Re pride. Well, Justice is also a virtue.. or, wait  And did I mention that I do not believe in the Chantry teachings that explain what exactly is the difference between the spirits and the demons?)

It's not that they were in another realm. It's that they were mind-controlled into doing it. If they did it of their own volition in the Fade or the real world without a demon controlling their mind, then it could be attributed to their character.

I do understand how a demon can create a vision and trick you into believing it. I fail to understand about what spell named "mind control" or something you are speaking.

Not if their character and their control over their actions is taken away from you.

Where is it written or said exactly that a demon that does not possess the victim has a power to take control over the victims actions? It occured to me that possession is the prerequisite to that. A demon can create a vision and try to convince the victim that the vision is real, but that is basically all. If I'm missing something in the lore, please point it out.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 03:13 .

[Koire]

General User wrote...
Again: how many innocent bystanders would have to be killed before Anders' actions become unacceptable and/or morally wrong  to you?

I don't know, really.  It is the last resort, but the deaths of priests and templars in the Chantry are acceptable to me, and I won't believe that there were more than 5-7 bystanders there during the blast, because it is the maximum number of those we see praying in the Chantry during the game.

How many innocent mages would have to be abused before Anders' actions become acceptable and/or morally right to you? There are no easy answers to such questions, and you know it.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Re eluvian - it could be useful. It could be dangerous. I am in the "better safe than sorry" camp, therefore I rejected Morrigan's offer, killed the Architect and made Merrill destroy the mirror. If you are willing to take the risk, you are welcome.

I will, and thus will not emotionally abuse my companions.

That is true, but none of this would happen if Merrill did not decide to leave the clan in the first place.

And if Marethari wasn't an evil powergrubbing ****.

[General User]

Koire wrote...

General User wrote...
Again: how many innocent bystanders would have to be killed before Anders' actions become unacceptable and/or morally wrong  to you?

I don't know, really.  It is the last resort, but the death of priests and templars in the Chantry is acceptable to me, and I won't believe that there were more than 5-7 bystanders there during the blast, because it is the maximum number of those we see praying in the Chantry during the game.

All right.  5-7 is acceptable.  What about 10-12?  Could I talk you up to 20?  Why not make it a nice 50?  As they say, in for a penny, in for a pound, what about 100?  1000?  50,000?  1,000,000?

Koire wrote...
How many innocent mages would have to be abused before Anders' actions become acceptable and/or morally right to you? There are no easy answers to such questions, and you know it.

Even if every single mage in Thedas was being "abused", Anders' actions would still be unacceptable, morally wrong, and deserving of death.  Anders was no freedom fighter, just a madman with a bomb and an axe to grind.

Modifié par General User, 05 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[Koire]

General User wrote...
All right.  5-7 is acceptable.  What about 10-12?  Could I talk you up to 20?  Why not make it a nice 50?  As they say, in for a penny, in for a pound, what about 100?  1000?  50,000?  1,000,000? 

There is no need to resort to slippery slope arguments, really Unless you can prove that Anders is going to kill 50,000 innocents in future, of course. I'd add pregnant women and puppies to the list - just to make an impression)

Even if every single mage in Thedas was being "abused", Anders' actions would still be unacceptable, morally wrong, and deserving of death.

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crises maintain their neutrality. © Dante
Go on, lean back and watch the system at work, and don't you dare oppose it 

Anders was no freedom fighter, just a madman with a bomb and an axe to grind.

I am curious: how do you understand his actions? I mean, why do you think he did it? Because the Chantry is a nice big building and he thought the blast would be visible from afar? Or because he hated the priests and wanted to "kill them all"? Because my understanding of the situation is obviously very different.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Xilizhra]

Even if every single mage in Thedas was being "abused", Anders' actions would still be unacceptable, morally wrong, and deserving of death. Anders was no freedom fighter, just a madman with a bomb and an axe to grind.

No one, ever, deserves death. The only kind of deaths are murder and unfortunate necessity. Never "just."

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crises maintain their neutrality. © Dante

Wait a minute.... in Dante, the coldest place in Hell was the worst.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 mars 2012 - 03:29 .

[TEWR]

Could you tell me when exactly does she say that, please?

I know for a fact it happens in Act 3, during her quest. I forget what response you have to pick, but I think it's in response to a particular dialogue option of Hawke's.

Do they? After reading Asunder I am not sure we know anything about demons with certainty.

Demons exist solely in the Fade but seek to pass over into the mortal world. And Asunder only reinforced that notion. Spirits and Demons exist in the Fade only, but the latter group wants to cross over into the mortal world.

Re pride. Well, Justice is also a virtue.. or, wait And did I mention that I do not believe in the Chantry teachings that explain what exactly is the difference between the spirits and the demons?)

Justice is a virtue, actually. Vengeance can be considered a virtue as well, if a greyer one.

Justice and Vengeance are two sides of the same coin, after all.

David Gaider -- the Man Upstairs. The Big Cheese. The Big Kahuna. Word of God -- said that there is a differentiation between Spirits and Demons and that it must be made. That differentiation is that they embody virtues and vices, respectively.

However, the Chantry says that they are the first children of the Maker. I myself do not know what to think of that, but that is what Merrill doesn't believe. She refers to the denizens of the Fade as spirits -- with a lowercase s. I checked the surtitles

When a person uses the word spirits -- with a lowercase s -- then they refer to all denizens of the Fade.

When a person uses the word Spirits -- with a capital S -- they mean the Fade denizens like Faith, Justice, and Valor.

I do understand how a demon can create a vision and trick you into believing it. I fail to understand about what spell named "mind control" or something you are speaking.

See the example I gave above. I'll repost it here:

If you were mind-controlled into killing your best friend against your will, would you say that is to be taken as a sign of your character? Would you say that you can never have a best friend again, because you'll kill them when your mind is your own? Would you say that you'll betray your friends?

Where is it written or said exactly that a demon that does not possess the victim has a power to take control over the victims actions? It occured to me that possession is the prerequisite to that. A demon can create a vision and try to convince the victim that the vision is real, but that is basically all. If I'm missing something in the lore, please point it out.

Did you miss the examples I gave? Wynne and everyone else. The DAII companions point out that it was mind control.

I shouldn't have to reinforce that any further.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2012 - 03:55 .

[Koire]

Xilizhra wrote...
No one, ever, deserves death. The only kind of deaths are murder and unfortunate necessity. Never "just."

Personally I view Anders' actions as a necessary evil, and being necessary does not preclude them from being evil. And he realizes it himself. But I really do think they were necessary in that situation, terrible as they are.

Wait a minute.... in Dante, the coldest place in Hell was the worst.

By the way, yes, that's true) Although I doubt the hottest place was so much better)

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Cody]

Xilizhra wrote...
No one, ever, deserves death. The only kind of deaths are murder and unfortunate necessity. Never "just."

So you don't think Hitler deserved to die? You don't think rapists or pedophiles deserve to die either?

[Xilizhra]

CodyMelch wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No one, ever, deserves death. The only kind of deaths are murder and unfortunate necessity. Never "just."

So you don't think Hitler deserved to die? You don't think rapists or pedophiles deserve to die either?

No. What they deserve is rehabilitation and redemption.

[Koire]

As far as I know, demons exist solely in the Fade but seek to pass over into the mortal world. And Asunder only reinforced that notion. Spirits and Demons exist in the Fade only, but the latter group wants to cross over into the mortal world.

That is not what I meant. How do we know that demons and spirits do not exist in some other third realm beyond the Fade to which Morrigan ventured with her child? We don't know the opposite either.

Justice is a virtue, actually. Vengeance can be considered a virtue as well, if a greyer one.

Yes, that is exactly what I wanted to hear. Pride is a virtue and a sin at once, a greyer one, just as Vengeance. Imho.

See the example I gave above.

But they do not sound convincing to me, sorry. You are saying that the demons must have used some sort of spell because the characters would not do it overwise. I am saying that they willfully are doing it on their own, and the demons are only creating the illusions they find themselves in. Since my explanation is simplier, I believe it is true. Wynne who is possessed herself is an especially poor example. And I would not trust Aveline saying that she was "mind controlled", it is how she explains it to herself. A codex entry or any third party evidence would do though, all the rest are speculations on my and your behalf.  Really, let us agree to disagree 

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 04:00 .

[Koire]

CodyMelch wrote...

So you don't think Hitler deserved to die? You don't think rapists or pedophiles deserve to die either?

Justice and mercy are tricky virtues - they contradict each other. Due to this there are no universal rules which would allow us to pass judgement without careful consideration. So I would say Hitler - yes, rapists and pedophiles - most likely no, but it depends on the situation.

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 03:59 .

[TEWR]

That is not what I meant. How do we know that demons and spirits do not exist in some other third realm beyond the Fade to which Morrigan ventured with her child? We don't know the opposite either.

Then what did Asunder have to do with that belief of yours? You bringing up Asunder was irrelevant.

And I think we do know the opposite, considering Morrigan did her research on the Eluvian and where it went and felt comfortable going through the portal.

You have nothing to back up your belief of "Spirits possibly exist elsewhere too", whereas I have more then enough to back up the fact that they don't. Bioware has already gone on record stating that Morrigan will be important in the future and I know for a fact that she wouldn't have researched something that would've turned out to be a mistake.

She was confident in the safety of it and Bioware isn't about to make her wrong in this regard. She's not an idiot, and she had a tome that dealt with the Eluvians themselves.

That tome existed from the time of Arlathan. It's one of the few remnants of that time the Dalish have.

Yes, that is exactly what I wanted to hear. Pride is a virtue and a sin at once, a greyer one, just as Vengeance. Imho.

Except that's not even remotely what I said at all.

I said that Justice and Vengeance are both virtues. One is just more grey, but they are both virtues still.

Pride is a virtue and a vice. That's not the same thing as what I said, so I'm unsure of what you thought I said.

But they do not sound convincing to me, sorry. You are saying that the demons must have used some sort of spell because the characters would not do it overwise. I am saying that they willfully are doing it on their own, and the demons are only creating the illusions they find themselves in. Since my explanation is simplier, I believe it is true.

Hawke can say to Fenris that all of his friends get one free demonic possession before he holds it against them. Obviously, he's making a joke but he's using the facts of the situation to make the joke.

Demons can possess someone from within the Fade, y'know. See Connor.

And as I said earlier in the thread, Allure says that she can use the desires of people to control their actions. This extends to other intelligent demons as well in regards to whatever vice they embody. She also says she can plant desires in a person if she wanted.

And I would not trust Aveline saying that she was "mind controlled", it is how she explains it to herself. A codex entry or any third party evidence would do though, all the rest are speculations on my and your behalf. Really, let us agree to disagree

Aveline, Merrill, Varric, etc.

All of them say that the demon manipulated them and controlled them. And, as I said above, Allure backs it up.

There is evidence from numerous sources to back it up.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2012 - 04:29 .

[TEWR]

They are manipulated by illusions and deceit if not outright mind control,

from the desire demon page on the Dragon Age wiki

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Desire_Demon

And since they can mind control, Pride Demons can as well because Pride Demons are more powerful then Desire demons.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2012 - 04:35 .

[Koire]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You bringing up Asunder was irrelevant.

I actually recalled the quote from Asunder when I was writing that. This one: "It was that the time has come for us to put aside our assumptions of the past - the assumptions of others as well as our assumptions about ourselves. We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations". Asunder rises many questions. For instance, what is Cole exactly? Why does he hear the call that the darkspawn hear? Etc

And I think we do know the opposite, considering Morrigan did her research on the Eluvian and where it went and felt comfortable going through the portal.

I trust the words of Morrigan no more than the words of Flemeth. I believe their motives could be far from benevolent.

Except that's not even remotely what I said at all.

Err, I meant what you said about Vengeance, re Pride - that is what I think, not what you've said. Also, it occured to me that once you label something "grey", it falls under the definition of "the virtue and the vice at once".

Demons can possess someone from within the Fade, y'know. See Connor.

But Connor agreed to it himself, he was not forced into it.

And as I said earlier in the thread, Allure says that she can use the desires of people to control their actions.

Can't ordinary people create desires in others? Guys from the marketing departments are paid for that, you know

All of them say that the demon manipulated them and controlled them.

Manipulated - yes, controlled - I would not be so sure. Again, you do not need spells or demonic powers to manipulate people.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Desire_Demon

 

Yep, this one will do) Thank you for the link. But how do you know that a Pride demon can't use it while trapped then?

Modifié par Koire, 05 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[TEWR]

I do not trust Morrigan. I believe her motives could be far from benevolent.

You don't have to trust her -- even though I find that to be wrong -- but you should believe her because she knows what she's talking about.

Err, I meant what you said about Vengeance, re Pride - that is what I think, not what you've said

I know, but what I said doesn't support what you believe because they're nowhere near similar.

Manipulated - yes, controlled - I would not be so sure. Again, you do not need spells or demonic powers to manipulate people.

No but when demons are capable of mind control -- see the post above yours -- and all of the companions are saying they lost all control of their mind, then to ignore that evidence because you want to believe the demons didn't force them to do something they wouldn't have otherwise done is just foolish.