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[dragonflight288]

And in that regard, he succeeded. But if we execute him, then the justification for the Rite of Annulment is lost. Meredith didn't care. She even leaves Anders fate up to Hawke.

All that happens afterwards is the fault of one woman alone. Meredith.

[DPSSOC]

Koire wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
You miss my point, apologies if I was unclear.  This isn't the first time Anders loses control to Justice/Vengeance, we have no indication, help or no, that it will be the last.  J/V is getting progressively more dangerous and we see with Ella that his standards for who qualifies as the enemy are slipping.  All Ella did was call him a demon and he was ready to kill her.  What happens the next time J/V comes out and someone disagrees with him, what happens when other members of the mage rebellion think he's going too far.  That's what General User was talking about (I think) when he mentioned Anders eventually turning on those he's fighting for, because more and more J/V is going to start viewing anyone who does not agree with him 100% as the enemy.

Don't forget Anders himself will tell you that he's having more and more trouble keeping J/V locked away.  His outbursts are becoming more frequent and it's taking less to provoke him.  What happens on the day when Anders can't keep him locked up anymore?  When he becomes the prisoner.

As far as I understand, you see this character's development as an inevitable downward spiral.

 
As with all forms of incurable, untreatable madness yeah.

Koire wrote...
I think both GavrielKay and me (Gavriel, correct me if I'm wrong) view the Dissent quest as a "point of realisation", with two diverging paths afterwards - up (friendship) and down (rivalry). This is why we make different assumptions in the end.
The thing is, Anders says that he's having more and more trouble before Dissent, he doesn't say it after this quest on the friendship path. He doesn't directly state the contrary either.

Which leads me to assume the condition has progressed as before.  If Anders had said something as simple as pointing out how long he'd gone between J/V break outs I'd be inclined to believe he's getting better, but without anything to indicate that, and given how dangerous his condition makes him, I must assume that his condition has continued to worsen.

Koire wrote...
We have his last Codex entry, but "losing this struggle" in both versions is followed by "mage freedom", not by "Justice taking over", so it is unclear if it means merging or splitting, it could be either.

He's struggling to control Justice and failing, that seems quite clear in both.  That lends me to believe the struggle is one of dominance, one personality subverting the other.  Now you're right Justice is still on the mages side, for now, but Ella demonstrates how quickly Justice can shift focus.

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...

Exactly. 

The problem highlighted by the events in Kirkwall is that a circle is at the mercy of the Chantry and Templar system.  Should various elements of that system fail (Meredith being bonkers, Elthina being incompetent) then the circle mages can be attacked and wiped out regardless of any actions on their part.  The idea was to break most mages out of their mindset that even if they don't really like the circle, if they just play along, at least they'll be safe. 

The truth is that when mages are so totally under the power of the Chantry and Templars they can never really be safe.  Anders wanted the mages (and everyone else) to see the situation for what it is - oppression of a minority by an overzealous majority bent on maintaining or worsening the status quo.

...and being willing to end innocent lives in the process.  I hate to bring up that point again, but Anders' bomb, while well intentioned, does take out innocent lives.  The similarities between the Anders and Meredeth outweigh the differences.

(1) They both hold extreme opinions.

(2) They both are working for what they believe to be a good cause.

(3) They both are unwilling to compromise.

(4) They both have a sentient third party kicking around their headspace (Vengence for Anders, Lyrium Idol for Meredeth

(5) They both end up risking/costing innocent lives for their cause (Right of Annulment for Meredeth, The Chantry Building Reconstruction spell for Anders)

(6) Neither of them understand the popularity of Justin Beeber.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 12 mars 2012 - 05:55 .

[dragonflight288]

(6) Neither of them understand the popularity of Justin Beeber.

O.O....I don't either.

[Lazy Jer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

(6) Neither of them understand the popularity of Justin Beeber.

O.O....I don't either.

Come to think of it, I don't think anyone does.

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...


Come to think of it, I don't think anyone does.

If anyone does, they've probably gone mad because it's a paradox wrapped inside of an enigma wrapped inside of a contradiction

also:




Beware Justin Bidoof!

.........

........................

............................I'm really bored

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mars 2012 - 08:28 .

[Lazy Jer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

............................I'm really bored

Clearly.  Though I think you've found the common enemy that could have gotten Meredeth and Anders to work together...or the Circle and the Templars in general for that matter.  Along with the Daleish, the Ferelden Army, The Kirkwall City Guard, the Qunari, the Carta, The Dwarves of Orzammar, the Darkspawn, Tevinter...

[Koire]

Lazy Jer wrote...
(1) They both hold extreme opinions.

Not true. Anders merely wanted mages to have the same rights as every man, he did not advocate for mages ruling anybody, and he condemned blood magic and slavery. 

(3) They both are unwilling to compromise.

Also not true. Anders was willing to compromise until Act 3, this is the reason for the clinic, manifestos, "I did not attack the templars openly" etc. Templars under Meredith, on the other hand, were beating, raping and tranquilizing mages back in Act 1. As a result by the end of Act 3 there was no way out that wouldn't end in bloodshed.

(2) They both are working for what they believe to be a good cause.
(4) They both have a sentient third party kicking around their headspace (Vengence for Anders, Lyrium Idol for Meredeth
(5) They both end up risking/costing innocent lives for their cause (Right of Annulment for Meredeth, The Chantry Building Reconstruction spell for Anders)

These are true. And #6 too 

...and being willing to end innocent lives in the process.  I hate to bring up that point again, but Anders' bomb, while well intentioned, does take out innocent lives.  The similarities between the Anders and Meredeth outweigh the differences.

Anders was right, while Meredith was not. Imho it really makes a difference.

Modifié par Koire, 13 mars 2012 - 10:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Koire wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
(1) They both hold extreme opinions.

Not true. Anders merely wanted mages to have the same rights as every man, he did not advocate for mages ruling anybody, and he condemned blood magic and slavery. 

(3) They both are unwilling to compromise.

Also not true. Anders was willing to compromise until Act 3, this is the reason for the clinic, manifestos, "I did not attack the templars openly" etc. Templars under Meredith, on the other hand, were beating, raping and tranquilizing mages back in Act 1. As a result by the end of Act 3 there was no way out that wouldn't end in bloodshed.

(2) They both are working for what they believe to be a good cause.
(4) They both have a sentient third party kicking around their headspace (Vengence for Anders, Lyrium Idol for Meredeth
(5) They both end up risking/costing innocent lives for their cause (Right of Annulment for Meredeth, The Chantry Building Reconstruction spell for Anders)

These are true. And #6 too 

...and being willing to end innocent lives in the process.  I hate to bring up that point again, but Anders' bomb, while well intentioned, does take out innocent lives.  The similarities between the Anders and Meredeth outweigh the differences.

Anders was right, while Meredith was not. Imho it really makes a difference.

Anders wanted the mages to fight or die trying. That is an extreme view. And he was completely unwilling to compromise in the least. For him it was mage freedom or nothing. The only major difference between Meredith and Anders is ideology.

[Alessa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Anders wanted the mages to fight or die trying. That is an extreme view. And he was completely unwilling to compromise in the least. For him it was mage freedom or nothing. The only major difference between Meredith and Anders is ideology.

Sure NOT.

The main difference between Anders and Meredith is that she has power over the mages and uses this to satisfy her morbid mania ... while Anders is a tortured slave of the chantry, driven to desperation by the lack of insight of the persons in power, with no way out left than shouting out loud "Enough is enough!" and giving the mages the conditions to fight for their equality!

Modifié par Alessa-00, 13 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The line "Anders is a tortured slave of the Chantry" is getting old... he wasn't once tortured or ever experienced the "cruelty" of the Circle. Not once. Actually he was protected by the Circle, otherwise he would have been executed many, many years ago. Nor did the CHantry itself ever do anything to Anders, other than educate him on the aspects of magic. Yes, they removed him from his family. Which in Thedas' current state, is a sad neccesity. If he had wished to remain in contact with his family, he could easily have done so, same for his family. He clearly didn't. His own fault.

Anders was an extremist with extreme views. Same as Meredith. They were also both willing to go to any length, and pay any price to achieve their goals. The only difference on their personalities were ideology. Sure they were different regarding personal status and influence. meredith had an acutal vindicated cause, and first-hand experience about waht she was talking. However misguided she was.
Anders was talking out of his arse, and never had any first-hand experiences to the abuses of the Circle. That is not to say that such abuses weren't there. Just that Anders had no idea about what he was talking. He was perhaps the least qualified mage, to ever advocate mage equality and rights.

[Alessa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The line "Anders is a tortured slave of the Chantry" is getting old... he wasn't once tortured or ever experienced the "cruelty" of the Circle. Not once. Actually he was protected by the Circle, otherwise he would have been executed many, many years ago. Nor did the CHantry itself ever do anything to Anders, other than educate him on the aspects of magic. Yes, they removed him from his family. Which in Thedas' current state, is a sad neccesity. If he had wished to remain in contact with his family, he could easily have done so, same for his family. He clearly didn't. His own fault.

Anders was an extremist with extreme views. Same as Meredith. They were also both willing to go to any length, and pay any price to achieve their goals. The only difference on their personalities were ideology. Sure they were different regarding personal status and influence. meredith had an acutal vindicated cause, and first-hand experience about waht she was talking. However misguided she was.
Anders was talking out of his arse, and never had any first-hand experiences to the abuses of the Circle. That is not to say that such abuses weren't there. Just that Anders had no idea about what he was talking. He was perhaps the least qualified mage, to ever advocate mage equality and rights.

He HAD "first-hand-experiences" to the abuses of the circle! He was prisoned for many years in the Circle and severely punished after attempting to escape! He was, for example, locked up in solitude for a whole year! That IS torture!

Modifié par Alessa-00, 13 mars 2012 - 12:25 .

[TEWR]

I'd call solitary confinement torture. Pretty sure Anders tells the Warden that was what happened to him.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Solitary confinement would in normally be classified as torture, true (or at least in some severe cases of it). However in the case of mages, who can simply enter the Fade conciously, it is a different matter. A mage can have contact with the outside world, through the Fade, even though they are physically confined. That completely changes the game, and makes solitary confinement, much less cruel to mage, since "all" they miss out on, is physical contact. Nor is solitary confinement nearly as damaging as any "real" sort of torture.

[Alessa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd call solitary confinement torture. Pretty sure Anders tells the Warden that was what happened to him.

Right! That's what they did to him and that is definitely torture ... so he knows what he is talking about!

[Plaintiff]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The line "Anders is a tortured slave of the Chantry" is getting old... he wasn't once tortured or ever experienced the "cruelty" of the Circle. Not once. Actually he was protected by the Circle,[/quote]
A year of solitary confinement is not "protection" by any stretch of the imagination. It most certainly constitutes mental torture.


[quote]otherwise he would have been executed many, many years ago.[/quote]
No he would not. Executing a mage simply for running away is against chantry law. All examples where such a thing occurred are completely illegal, and should have been punished, were it not for the disgustingly apathetic and lazy authority that handles these matters (ie, The Chantry, which made the law in the first place).


[quote]Nor did the CHantry itself ever do anything to Anders, other than educate him on the aspects of magic.[/quote]
Except for the kidnapping, and ripping the soul out of his friend and former lover, and hounding him relentlessly even after he was conscripted into the Grey Wardens, and harassing him for years while he worked to heal sick people...


[quote]Yes, they removed him from his family. Which in Thedas' current state, is a sad neccesity.[/quote]
No it isn't. The Chantry doesn't try any other options because a) it is lazy and corrupt and allowing mages to have any sort of ties to the world outside would make it harder to control them.


[quote]If he had wished to remain in contact with his family, he could easily have done so, same for his family.[/quote]
Lies, lies, lies. Anders explicitly states that parents are usually forbidden from seeing their mage children. Every instance we've seen where a family tried to conceal a mage child, that was a major factor of their reasoning. Ella's mother didn't even know which Circle she was being held in. How the **** was she supposed to send a letter?  Emile De Launcet's parents haven't seen him since he was a little boy, until he escapes years later, as a full-grown man.

The only exceptions to this rule are the obscenely wealthy and influential. Being forced to pay exorbitant sums for what ought to be a basic right is not the sign of a just and fair religion.

Even if contact were allowed, it's prety clearly established that the Anderfels are very far away, and it's not as if they have email. A letter would be delivered on foot, or on horseback, if one is lucky. It would take weeks if not months to reach its destination, assuming it got there at all, which cannot be guranteed.

[quote]Anders was an extremist with extreme views. Same as Meredith. They were also both willing to go to any length, and pay any price to achieve their goals. The only difference on their personalities were ideology.[/quote]
 Yes. the difference being that Anders' ideology is the right one.


[quote]Sure they were different regarding personal status and influence. meredith had an acutal vindicated cause, and first-hand experience about waht she was talking. However misguided she was.[/quote]
"A black person stole my wallet once and that is why I no longer ride busses with black people!"


[quote]Anders was talking out of his arse, and never had any first-hand experiences to the abuses of the Circle.[/quote]
I'm sorry, what part of witnessing the illegal mind-rape of his ex-lover and oldest friend does not constitute "first-hand experience"?


[quote]That is not to say that such abuses weren't there.[/quote]
In fact, abuse is almost everything the Circle does. It would take less time to make a list of the ways in which it hasn't caused needless suffering. 


[quote]Just that Anders had no idea about what he was talking.[/quote]
He lived in the Circle from the age of twelve and is now in his late twenties, if not early thirties. Unless you're proposing that he was kept in a sound-proof bubble and never had any contact with anyone at all, (which is explicitly proven to not be the case), there is absolutely no way that he could fail to be intimately aware of the abuses of the Circle.


[quote]He was perhaps the least qualified mage, to ever advocate mage equality and rights.[/quote]
Right, and exactly what qualifications do you imagine such a position requires?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 13 mars 2012 - 12:50 .

[Alessa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Solitary confinement would in normally be classified as torture, true (or at least in some severe cases of it). However in the case of mages, who can simply enter the Fade conciously, it is a different matter. A mage can have contact with the outside world, through the Fade, even though they are physically confined. That completely changes the game, and makes solitary confinement, much less cruel to mage, since "all" they miss out on, is physical contact. Nor is solitary confinement nearly as damaging as any "real" sort of torture.

So you say that the fade is the same as the outside world???? You really think, dreaming is as good as real freedom???

ONE YEAR of solitary confinement IS DEFINITELY TORTURE and even more violating than being hurt!!!!

[TEWR]

Solitary confinement would in normally be classified as torture, true (or at least in some severe cases of it). However in the case of mages, who can simply enter the Fade conciously, it is a different matter. A mage can have contact with the outside world, through the Fade, even though they are physically confined.

Unless the room they're confined to forbids entering the Fade somehow. And considering that it's called solitary confinement and not physical confinement, I think the Templars probably made sure that a mage can't enter the Fade to see other people.

That completely changes the game, and makes solitary confinement, much less cruel to mage, since "all" they miss out on, is physical contact. Nor is solitary confinement nearly as damaging as any "real" sort of torture.

Wait... so you just admitted that solitary confinement is torture and then went on to say it's not torture, as evidenced by "it's not nearly as damaging as any "real" sort of torture."

That makes no sense.

And solitary confinement is torture, no matter what.

[Alessa]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The line "Anders is a tortured slave of the Chantry" is getting old... he wasn't once tortured or ever experienced the "cruelty" of the Circle. Not once. Actually he was protected by the Circle,[/quote]
A year of solitary confinement is not "protection" by any stretch of the imagination.

[quote]otherwise he would have been executed many, many years ago.[/quote]
No he would not, executing a mage simply for running away is against chantry law. All examples were such a thing occurred are completely illegal, but utterly ignored by the disgustingly apathetic and lazy authority.

[quote]Nor did the CHantry itself ever do anything to Anders, other than educate him on the aspects of magic.[/quote]
Except for the kidnapping, ripping the soul his friend and former lover, hounding him relentlessly even after he was conscripted into the Grey Wardens, harassing him for years because living in a sewer isn't bad enough already...

[quote]Yes, they removed him from his family. Which in Thedas' current state, is a sad neccesity.[/quote]
No it isn't. The Chantry doesn't try any other options because a) it is lazy and corrupt and allowing mages to have any sort of ties to the world outside would make it harder to control them.

[quote]If he had wished to remain in contact with his family, he could easily have done so, same for his family.[/quote]
Lies, lies, lies. Anders explicitly states that parents are usually forbidden from seeing their mage children. Every instance we've seen where a family tried to conceal a mage child, that was a major factor of their reasoning. Ella's mother didn't even know which Circle she was in. The only exceptions are the obscenely wealthy and influential. Needing to bribe officials in order to obtain what ought to be a basic right is not the sign of a just and fair religion.

[quote]Anders was an extremist with extreme views. Same as Meredith. They were also both willing to go to any length, and pay any price to achieve their goals. The only difference on their personalities were ideology.[/quote]
 Yes. Anders ideology is the right one.

[quote]Sure they were different regarding personal status and influence. meredith had an acutal vindicated cause, and first-hand experience about waht she was talking. However misguided she was.[/quote]
"A black person stole my wallet once and that is why I no longer ride busses with black people!"

[quote]Anders was talking out of his arse, and never had any first-hand experiences to the abuses of the Circle.[/quote]
I'm sorry, what part of witnessing the illegal mind-rape of his ex-lover and oldest friend does not constitute "first-hand experience"?

[quote]That is not to say that such abuses weren't there.[/quote]
In fact, abuse is almost everything the Circle does. It would take less time to make a list of the ways in which it hasn't caused needless suffering. 

[quote]Just that Anders had no idea about what he was talking.[/quote]
He lived in the Circle from the age of twelve and is now in his late twenties, if not early thirties. Unless you're proposing that he was kept in a sound-proof bubble and never had any contact with anyone at all, (which is explicitly proven to not be the case), there is absolutely no way that he could fail to be intimately aware of the abuses of the Circle.

[quote]He was perhaps the least qualified mage, to ever advocate mage equality and rights.[/quote]
Right, and exactly what qualifications do you imagine such a position requires?[/quote]


Exact!

[TEWR]

That is not to say that such abuses weren't there.

Sadly, the Ferelden Circle is a place where abuse goes on. Cullen remarks that certain Templars are oddly happy about performing the RoT on mages -- or so I've been told. haven't played the Mage origin in a long time -- and the comic book shows Gregoir as a woman beater.

That last one I find despicable since it goes against his established character in Origins. And it certainly doesn't help the case for David Gaider's "The Templars aren't all evil! I swear!" thing.

Those are only two of the abuses that I believe happen in the Ferelden Circle.

[Plaintiff]

Alessa-00 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Solitary confinement would in normally be classified as torture, true (or at least in some severe cases of it). However in the case of mages, who can simply enter the Fade conciously, it is a different matter. A mage can have contact with the outside world, through the Fade, even though they are physically confined. That completely changes the game, and makes solitary confinement, much less cruel to mage, since "all" they miss out on, is physical contact. Nor is solitary confinement nearly as damaging as any "real" sort of torture.

So you say that the fade is the same as the outside world???? You really think, dreaming is as good as real freedom???

ONE YEAR of solitary confinement IS DEFINITELY TORTURE and even more violating than being hurt!!!!

"I can still talk to people! I just have to wander around a colourless dreamworld looking for complete strangers, and avoid being possessed or outright killed in the meantime! I sure hope my body doesn't die of malnutrition and leave me stuck here forever! Or maybe some unscrupulous templar will take advantage of my catatonic form."

Man, solitary confinement sounds like a blast. I wish I was in solitary confinement right now!

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Solitary confinement would in normally be classified as torture, true (or at least in some severe cases of it). However in the case of mages, who can simply enter the Fade conciously, it is a different matter. A mage can have contact with the outside world, through the Fade, even though they are physically confined.

Unless the room they're confined to forbids entering the Fade somehow. And considering that it's called solitary confinement and not physical confinement, I think the Templars probably made sure that a mage can't enter the Fade to see other people.

 
Possibly. But we can only speculate on that point.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

That completely changes the game, and makes solitary confinement, much less cruel to mage, since "all" they miss out on, is physical contact. Nor is solitary confinement nearly as damaging as any "real" sort of torture.

Wait... so you just admitted that solitary confinement is torture and then went on to say it's not torture, as evidenced by "it's not nearly as damaging as any "real" sort of torture."

That makes no sense.

And solitary confinement is torture, no matter what.

Then you are misunderstanding me. I'm saying taht solitary confinement rarely leaves any permanent mental scars, and, obviously, never any physical scars on the person submitted to it. Where as a yearlong submission to waterboarding would leave extreme mental and physical scars on a person.

[TEWR]

Then you are misunderstanding me. I'm saying taht solitary confinement rarely leaves any permanent mental scars, and, obviously, never any physical scars on the person submitted to it. Where as a yearlong submission to waterboarding would leave extreme mental and physical scars on a person.

Solitary confinement -- when it goes on for longer then a few weeks -- can lead to sensory deprivation.

The lack of contact with anyone else can also lead to depression, changes in the brain's physiology, existential crisis, and death.

It's been deemed that it's a leading cause of psychosis for healthy people and can even exacerbate mental illness in those that aren't healthy.

So I question the notion of it "rarely leaving any mental scars", permanent or otherwise. It's irrelevant how long a person is damaged for. What's relevant is that they're damaged if it goes on for longer then a few weeks -- and even that seems like torture to me. Plus, one could still be mentally scarred but cover it up so that the world doesn't know.

And Anders was imprisoned for a year in solitary the last time. A year. That definitely had to have left some mental scars on him, and so he used jokes to cover it up. Or at least, that's how I saw his Awakening self.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 01:06 .

[Wulfram]

Sticking mages into a solitary confinement with only contact with the Fade seems like a deliberate attempt to get them possessed.

Which makes some sense, from the same point of view that came up with the Harrowing. Either they get possessed in a convenient place and you can kill them without qualm - and justify to yourself that they were weak and would have been possessed eventually anyway - or you've established that despite their rebellious nature they're actually good at resisting demons.