2008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Emperor, quick question for you.

Do you believe that in the Dragon Age Universe, all magic is synonymous with evil or corruption? You seem bent on proving that magic in and of itself is the source of all corruption, and less on the people wielding that particular power.

 
I don't believe in evil persay, but I believe that magic is vile and naturally corrupting of social principles, yes. Anyone with that kind of power would natrually feel tempted to use them for his own benefit. That is not the fault of the mage, he is merely human, but it is the price of magic. Add to that the odd demon or two, and magic is an almost ultimate tool of corruption.

dragonflight288 wrote... 
I know you don't like magic in the game, but is it your honest opinion that if you woke up one day and accidentally set someone's hair on fire (and this is you) that you would be perfectly fine being removed from your family, never seeing your parents, your siblings, any children you may have, ever again. Would you be perfectly fine not being told what the Harrowing entailed? All you know is that what happens is a big secret and most people going in aren't seen again. 

 
If I was unable to control this power, I would see it as my societal duty to recluse myself from society, until I at least had mastered it. If it were to be a constant danger, it would have to be the sacrifice I must make.
Of course I would be anxious about what the harrowing entailed, but once it was completed (and presumming i survived of course), I would fully understand why it is kept secret for apprentices.

dragonflight288 wrote... 
Would you be fine having the decision to even get married made by someone else, irregardless of your feelings? Would you be fine if you had children, the Chantry would automatically assume custody since you aren't a worthy caretaker because of the magic?

 
Yes. If the power within me, is out of control, I am certainly unfit to take care of any child. If emotional entaglement lowers my defense towards this power, it is merely one of the things I must refrain from.

dragonflight288 wrote... 
Would having magic make you a bad person? Tell me your honest opinion.

No. But continues struggling against the fact that you do have magic, and constantly crying for society to adapt to your needs, would make you an arrogant, and selfish person.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how much longer do you propse for the Circle education to take? The longer you wait with giving them their final test, an actual encounter with a demon, the greater risk you put them, and everyone around them, in.

Wait, what? I'm saying it would just be classes talking about how to resist demons and stuff associated with it and if there was lyrium to allow it, a field trip to the Fade.

Then, like most schools with tests or final exams there would be a set day for the Harrowing. There wouldn't be any "But Teacher, I'm not ready!" type of things. Considering it's their life on the line, they would need to pay attention to the classes if they wanted a good shot at defeating the demon.

Besides, I imagine the Mage Teachers at the Circle are old-school, slamming things on desks for those that fall asleep -- if they fall asleep.

Wait.... now I think I'm delving too far away from the actual topic at hand. I should probably stop.

And you have proof of this? And don't you dare give me that ONE line of Merrill dialogue as indisputable proof.She gives you ONE line about what a Dalish is taught about the Fade, nothing else. And you claim, based on ONE line, that Dalish magic doctrines are superior?

how about the fact that Zathrian went centuries without being possessed by any demon. That tells us that the Dalish methods obviously work.

We know NOTHING of how a Dalish Keeper(/First) is taught. For all we know, the Dalish have an exact copy of the harrowing ritual. All we know is that "They are taught to rely only on themselves" within the Fade, which iirc mirrors quite nice with what Irving tells the mage warden, just prior to him entering his Harrowing.

 
Even if the principles of what they're taught are the same, it's how they're taught that matters.

   
Mages are not constantly in contact with demons. But they are constantly capable of contact with demons. I wouldn't be surprised if there have been mages, who have gone through their entire lives, without encountering a demon, not counting their Harrowing.

Chantry dogma states that mages are constantly in contact with demons, but the games themselves have failed to prove or disprove this belief. 

Nor would I doubt, since we have proof of their existance, that there have been mages, who has been harrassed by demons every single day of their life.

We have proof of mages that have been harassed by demons every day?

The problem lies in the chance. The chance for a mage to encounter a demon, and the results thereof, are simply too high to ever let happen, in an uncontrolled enviroment.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any control. But the control does need to make sense.

We have no idea how Bethany and Hawke were taught. For all we know they followed the Circle teaching to the letter. That is indeed most likely, since Bethany writes to Hawke about the Harrowing, fully expecting Hawke to understand what it is.

It's been a while since I've played, but I think there were certain areas of DAII -- and maybe Legacy -- that discussed how Malcolm taught his children.

Mages are nothing without magic. If we are going to take the old legends for its word, the old Gods communed with mages from across the veil, and seduced them to corruption.

Magic still isn't to blame. The Mages of that era are.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

Koire wrote...

He is the head of all Seekers, not in Orlais, but everywhere. Like the Divine is the head of the entire Chantry. And he is actually from Tevinter himself)
If someone managed to kill the knight-commander, don't you think the Seekers would be at least mildly interested in that? Because that would rise the tensions even more.

He's from Tevinter? And he's anti-mage? Strange. Or maybe that's why he's anti-mage, because mages are so crazy over there.

Okay, so let's say Meredith didn't get assassinated; she was overturned by the nobles and Thrask's group (let's pretend that didn't go to hell) and Cullen is made KC peacefully. What then? I'm sure he'll hear of it, but would he do anything? Especially if things in Orlais are that bad.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Exactly, magic is not to blame period. magic never did anything without a person using it. How it is used is determined by the mage, not by magic itself. Just as to day, a gun never killed anyone, millions of people have been killed by PEOPLE using guns. It is not the thing that is at fault, it's the person using the thing be that a gun, knife poison or magic.

[Koire]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I don't believe in evil persay, but I believe that magic is vile and naturally corrupting of social principles, yes. Anyone with that kind of power would natrually feel tempted to use them for his own benefit. That is not the fault of the mage, he is merely human, but it is the price of magic. Add to that the odd demon or two, and magic is an almost ultimate tool of corruption.

 
I don't believe in evil persay, but I believe that knowledge is vile and naturally corrupting of social principles, yes. Anyone with that kind of power would natrually feel tempted to use them for his own benefit. That is not the fault of the scholar, he is merely human, but it is the price of knowledge.

See?) "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." © A. Clark
Try to prove that the scholar who invented gaatlock is less dangerous than an average mage. Shall we ban all knowledge then?

If I was unable to control this power, I would see it as my societal duty to recluse myself from society, until I at least had mastered it. If it were to be a constant danger, it would have to be the sacrifice I must make.
Of course I would be anxious about what the harrowing entailed, but once it was completed (and presumming i survived of course), I would fully understand why it is kept secret for apprentices.
Yes. If the power within me, is out of control, I am certainly unfit to take care of any child. If emotional entaglement lowers my defense towards this power, it is merely one of the things I must refrain from. 

Do you think mages are never able to control their power? Because the Chantry seems to presume so.

[Zetheria Tabris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


I don't believe in evil persay, but I believe that magic is vile and naturally corrupting of social principles, yes. Anyone with that kind of power would natrually feel tempted to use them for his own benefit. That is not the fault of the mage, he is merely human, but it is the price of magic. Add to that the odd demon or two, and magic is an almost ultimate tool of corruption.

If the mage doesn't have the personality to want power, than having magic won't change that. Take Bethany for example.

If I was unable to control this power, I would see it as my societal duty to recluse myself from society, until I at least had mastered it. If it were to be a constant danger, it would have to be the sacrifice I must make.
Of course I would be anxious about what the harrowing entailed, but once it was completed (and presumming i survived of course), I would fully understand why it is kept secret for apprentices.

You think it would be dangerous to have your family come visit you in the tower, let's say, once a month? Or at least write letters to each other? A mage should not have to be that secluded from the world to keep their powers in check. As a matter of fact, things like that cause mages to turn bad because they want to be treated as normally as possible.

Yes. If the power within me, is out of control, I am certainly unfit to take care of any child. If emotional entaglement lowers my defense towards this power, it is merely one of the things I must refrain from.

What if it's in control? What if you've passed your Harrowing?

No. But continues struggling against the fact that you do have magic, and constantly crying for society to adapt to your needs, would make you an arrogant, and selfish person.

So not wanting to be forever isolated and only let out when there's a battle, being possibly abused/raped by templars, or victim to a Right of Annulment makes you an arrogant, selfish person?

[TEWR]

He's from Tevinter? And he's anti-mage? Strange. Or maybe that's why he's anti-mage, because mages are so crazy over there.

Lord Seeker Lambert was once friends with a mage and helped the mage rise up through the ranks, but when the mage became the Black Divine he started to cease to be the man Lambert once knew. I also think the BD restricted what the Templars of Tevinter could do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 07:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]
And you have proof of this? And don't you dare give me that ONE line of Merrill dialogue as indisputable proof.She gives you ONE line about what a Dalish is taught about the Fade, nothing else. And you claim, based on ONE line, that Dalish magic doctrines are superior?[/quote]

how about the fact that Zathrian went centuries without being possessed by any demon. That tells us that the Dalish methods obviously work.
[/quote] 
Zathrian's life was already tied to a spirit. He is hardly the epitome of mage resistance to Fade denizens. I'm guessing he is "immune" to possession for the same reason as Anders is: He is already spoken for, and his soul belongs to another spirit.


[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]We know NOTHING of how a Dalish Keeper(/First) is taught. For all we know, the Dalish have an exact copy of the harrowing ritual. All we know is that "They are taught to rely only on themselves" within the Fade, which iirc mirrors quite nice with what Irving tells the mage warden, just prior to him entering his Harrowing.[/quote]
 
Even if the principles of what they're taught are the same, it's how they're taught that matters.
[/quote] 
And these methods are what we know absolutely nothing, squat, zilch, less than zero about. For all we know, Dalish are taught magic through the practice of eating dead babies....


[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]   
Mages are not constantly in contact with demons. But they are constantly capable of contact with demons. I wouldn't be surprised if there have been mages, who have gone through their entire lives, without encountering a demon, not counting their Harrowing.[/quote]

Chantry dogma states that mages are constantly in contact with demons, but the games themselves have failed to prove or disprove this belief. 
[/quote] 
Pro-mage dogma states that Templars are all, and constanly, raping mages. They have also failed to prove that constantly. I don't see anyone batting an eyelash at that.

The Chantry dogma, is probably just an exaggeration, used to adress the fact that mages ARE in constant contact with the Veil. WHile maybe not the denizens themselves, the mages are potentially in contact with them, at any time.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
Nor would I doubt, since we have proof of their existance, that there have been mages, who has been harrassed by demons every single day of their life.[/quote]

We have proof of mages that have been harassed by demons every day?
[/quote] 
Feynriel.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
The problem lies in the chance. The chance for a mage to encounter a demon, and the results thereof, are simply too high to ever let happen, in an uncontrolled enviroment.[/quote]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any control. But the control does need to make sense.
[/quote] 
And the control the Circle provides are simple the ebst there is right now.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
We have no idea how Bethany and Hawke were taught. For all we know they followed the Circle teaching to the letter. That is indeed most likely, since Bethany writes to Hawke about the Harrowing, fully expecting Hawke to understand what it is.[/quote]

It's been a while since I've played, but I think there were certain areas of DAII -- and maybe Legacy -- that discussed how Malcolm taught his children.
[/quote] 
It doesn't go into anywhere near detail enough for us to make any form of conclussion about how Malcolm taught his children magic. It merely gives us one meagre sentences which was to show us his philosophical approach to teaching magic.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Mages are nothing without magic.If we are going to take the old legends for its word, the old Gods communed with mages from across the veil, and seduced them to corruption. [/quote]Magic still isn't to blame. The Mages of that era are.[/quote]
Blaming magic is to insinuate that it has some kind of conciousness. Realize that magic is the cause, is NOT the same.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 mars 2012 - 07:48 .

[Koire]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
He's from Tevinter?  And he's anti-mage? Strange. Or maybe that's why he's anti-mage, because mages are so crazy over there.

Yes, exactly. This is his primary motivation instead of Meredith's sister.

Okay, so let's say Meredith didn't get assassinated; she was overturned by the nobles and Thrask's group (let's pretend that didn't go to hell) and Cullen is made KC peacefully. What then? I'm sure he'll hear of it, but would he do anything? Especially if things in Orlais are that bad.

The problem is, by the end of the game we can't pretend that didn't go to hell. My point exactly is that everything went to hell, and in that situation I simply see no way out without bloodshed. I think, if Anders did nothing, Meredith would simply invoke ROA and kill all Circle mages, and nobody would say a word, may be even the mages themselves.
Events of Asunder take place a year after Act 3, but before Varric's interrogation, and the things in Orlais become that bad as a result of DA2 and after DA2.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Zetheria Tabris wrote... 
If the mage doesn't have the personality to want power, than having magic won't change that. Take Bethany for example. 

 
A mage may very easily end up naturally wanting power. In a primal setting, a mage would be the appex predator. it would only be natural, if given free reigns, that a mage seeks to be at the top of society, and squash all kinds of resistance. Given his powers, squash may even be quite literal.

Zetheria Tabris wrote... 
You think it would be dangerous to have your family come visit you in the tower, let's say, once a month? Or at least write letters to each other? A mage should not have to be that secluded from the world to keep their powers in check. As a matter of fact, things like that cause mages to turn bad because they want to be treated as normally as possible.

What if it's in control? What if you've passed your Harrowing? 

 
Despite what some posters on this board claims, I have yet to see any concrete proof of amges being disallwoed contact with the outside world as a rule. Some mages have probably been so. But it seems more likely that once a mage has passed his Harrowing, he is free to make whatever contact he wants on the outside. As long as it isn't physical of course.

And magic is never under complete control. it is by its very nature, chaotic. Uldred, for instance, had passed his Harrowing. That didn't help him. So the very taught of endagnering the ones I love around me, jsut so that I could feed my own vain desire to be with them, seems unacceptable, and downright disgusting.

Zetheria Tabris wrote... 
So not wanting to be forever isolated and only let out when there's a battle, being possibly abused/raped by templars, or victim to a Right of Annulment makes you an arrogant, selfish person?

Again. We have numerous examples and references of mages being allowed outside the Circle, and not jsut pertainning to battle situations. Of course, that all helps making the Cirlce sound less bad, so it is promptly disregarded by the general users on here, since it doens't fit into their agenda.

[TEWR]

Zathrian's life was already tied to a spirit. He is hardly the epitome of mage resistance to Fade denizens. I'm guessing he is "immune" to possession for the same reason as Anders is: He is already spoken for, and his soul belongs to another spirit.

his life was tied to the curse, not to the spirit itself. You can kill the spirit and he still lives. If his life was tied to it, he would've died.

Pro-mage dogma states that Templars are all, and constanly, raping mages. They have also failed to prove that constantly. I don't see anyone batting an eyelash at that.

I haven't once seen any pro-mage person -- forumite or Thedosian -- claim all Templars were rapists. Merely that rape does occur in the Circles.

The Chantry dogma, is probably just an exaggeration, used to adress the fact that mages ARE in constant contact with the Veil. WHile maybe not the denizens themselves, the mages are potentially in contact with them, at any time.

It'd be nice if the games addressed this though. Especially in a game that centered around demons, spirits, the Fade, Mages and Templars.

Feynriel.

That only applies to the Somniari though. I thought you meant we have a case of a non-Somniari mage who goes their whole life being plagued by demons.

And the control the Circle provides are simple the ebst there is right now.

If that was true, then there wouldn't be any point in these discussions.

The fact of the matter is the Circle as it is now -- and possibly as it ever was depending on what it was like in the past -- is not the best there is.

It's the worst. Templars that are primarily religious zealots and not morally sound people, mages that have no contact with family, etc.

That is not the basis of a system that works and the revolution is indeed the right answer. The system needs wholesale reform and this revolution is the best way to get that, as the mages have largely been obedient for 900 years. But instead of gaining more rights, they've had them taken away.

Blaming magic is to insinuate that it has some kind of conciousness. Realize that magic is the cause, is NOT the same.

Magic isn't the cause. The Mages of that era are the cause.

The Old Gods may have communed with those mages because of their magical abilities and connection to the Fade, but it was their decision. They are to be held accountable. Not magic. To say magic is the cause -- to blame magic -- is trying to paint magic as inherently evil.

[Koire]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Pro-mage dogma states that Templars are all, and constanly, raping mages. They have also failed to prove that constantly.

He-he) Well, I think I can prove that And beating. And tranqulizing.

Act 1
Macha: People harboring escaped mages just disappear. Templars interrogate and threaten passers-by. My friend has a cousin who’s a mage, and she says he was made Tranquil against his will. You hear more with every passing day.
Anders about Karl:”His last letter said the Knight-commander was turning the Circle into a prison. Mages are locked in their cells, refused appearances at court, made Tranquil for the slightest crimes”.”Ask any mage in Kirkwall. Over a dozen were made Tranquil just this year. The more people you ask, the worse the rumors become.”
Mage in Gallows – Don’t talk to me. The templars will give me thirty lashes for speaking to a civilian.
Alain in Gallows – Starkhaven was never like this. The templars beat us and no one says a thing.
Alain in Gallows – Ser Karras said if tell anyone he’s been in my chambers, he’ll make me Tranquil.
Alain in Gallows – The templars won’t let me send mail out. I found a letter to my parents that they burned in the furnace.
Thrask in Gallows (if Grace is captured in Act 1)  – Meredith ordered three Starkhaven mages executed at random. To teach them a lesson.

Act 2
Alain in Gallows (if Grace is captured in Act 2) – Three Starkhaven mages were made Tranquil. I hear they picked at random.

- We have no scheduled appointments this time, apprentice
- No! Helena, it’s me! Don’t you remember me?
- Of course. You are Apprentice Jaken. We were once involved in an illicit relationship.
- Illicit? I love you!
- I am Ser Alrik’s now. He is the only one who can command me.

Mage in Gallows – Many more of us have been given the Rite in recent days.
Templar in Gallows – These mages are getting out of control. We would do better to use the Rite of Tranquility more widely.
Mage in Gallows (templar side) – I heard Ser Alrik place the order for me to be made Tranquil. I passed my Harrowing! He can’t do that!
Grace in Gallows (if captured in Act 1) – They’re getting worse. Now they deny us our grimoires, our staffs. How are we to resist demons when they take all the tools of magic away from us?
Grace in Gallows (if captured in Act 1) – Every day they bring back the corpse of some poor mage who made a try for freedom. I wonder how long they’ll let me live.
Mage in Gallows  – Ser Alrik rescued me from my sins.
Mage in Gallows  – Ser Alrik says the Rite of Tranquility is the only thing that can keep the souls of mages from the Void.

Act 3
Anders (only if rival): "Meredith destroyed the mage underground and the survivors turned to blood magic as the only option."
Blood Mage Dispatches: "The hounds nabbed Franke the Cobbler tonight; no one knows where he is now. Thom Beshcal and his wife were killed three days back. They're no longer just hunting us: they're hunting our friends and family." ("the hounds" = templars)

Modifié par Koire, 13 mars 2012 - 08:10 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Zathrian's life was already tied to a spirit. He is hardly the epitome of mage resistance to Fade denizens. I'm guessing he is "immune" to possession for the same reason as Anders is: He is already spoken for, and his soul belongs to another spirit.[/quote]

his life was tied to the curse, not to the spirit itself. You can kill the spirit and he still lives. If his life was tied to it, he would've died.
[/quote] 
Which was tied to the spirit. But fine, if you want to go down that road. Avernus had survived for a century or two, and he was trained by the Circle. Albeit with added blood magic, but taht clearly didn't give any more control over demons.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Pro-mage dogma states that Templars are all, and constanly, raping mages. They have also failed to prove that constantly. I don't see anyone batting an eyelash at that.[/quote]I haven't once seen any pro-mage person -- forumite or Thedosian -- claim all Templars were rapists. Merely that rape does occur in the Circles.
[/quote] 
Then you have eitehr selective reading, or you just havn't been discussing the mage issue with other pro-mages as much as me. Since "Sure let Bethany live in the Circle with all the murderous rapist... I mean Templars yadda yadda yadda" attempts at arguing, are amongst the most frequent.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
The Chantry dogma, is probably just an exaggeration, used to adress the fact that mages ARE in constant contact with the Veil. WHile maybe not the denizens themselves, the mages are potentially in contact with them, at any time.[/quote]

It'd be nice if the games addressed this though. Especially in a game that centered around demons, spirits, the Fade, Mages and Templars.
[/quote] 
You know they can't do that without introducing class specific content.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Feynriel.
[/quote]

That only applies to the Somniari though. I thought you meant we have a case of a non-Somniari mage who goes their whole life being plagued by demons.
[/quote] 
Are Somniari mages or are they not?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]And the control the Circle provides are simple the ebst there is right now.[/quote]

If that was true, then there wouldn't be any point in these discussions.

The fact of the matter is the Circle as it is now -- and possibly as it ever was depending on what it was like in the past -- is not the best there is.

It's the worst. Templars that are primarily religious zealots and not morally sound people, mages that have no contact with family, etc.

That is not the basis of a system that works and the revolution is indeed the right answer. The system needs wholesale reform and this revolution is the best way to get that, as the mages have largely been obedient for 900 years. But instead of gaining more rights, they've had them taken away.
[/quote] 
The Tevinter way: Unacceptable.
The Dalish/other Apostates' way. Unfeasible.
Qunari way: Effective but ultimately unacceptable.
Circle: Flawed, but simply the Best we have, at the current moment.


[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Blaming magic is to insinuate that it has some kind of conciousness. Realize that magic is the cause, is NOT the same.
[/quote]

Magic isn't the cause. The Mages of that era are the cause.

The Old Gods may have communed with those mages because of their magical abilities and connection to the Fade, but it was their decision. They are to be held accountable. Not magic. To say magic is the cause -- to blame magic -- is trying to paint magic as inherently evil.[/quote]
Magic IS inherently corrupting. Any sort of power is. It takes great personal discipline to overcome such things. However, magic is not "to blame", since magic have no consioucness. But it is the cause for the mages greed. Their desire for more power, stems from their magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Koire wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Pro-mage dogma states that Templars are all, and constanly, raping mages. They have also failed to prove that constantly.

He-he) Well, I think I can prove that And beating. And tranqulizing.

Act 1
Macha: People harboring escaped mages just disappear. Templars interrogate and threaten passers-by. My friend has a cousin who’s a mage, and she says he was made Tranquil against his will. You hear more with every passing day.
Anders about Karl:”His last letter said the Knight-commander was turning the Circle into a prison. Mages are locked in their cells, refused appearances at court, made Tranquil for the slightest crimes”.”Ask any mage in Kirkwall. Over a dozen were made Tranquil just this year. The more people you ask, the worse the rumors become.”
Mage in Gallows – Don’t talk to me. The templars will give me thirty lashes for speaking to a civilian.
Alain in Gallows – Starkhaven was never like this. The templars beat us and no one says a thing.
Alain in Gallows – Ser Karras said if tell anyone he’s been in my chambers, he’ll make me Tranquil.
Alain in Gallows – The templars won’t let me send mail out. I found a letter to my parents that they burned in the furnace.
Thrask in Gallows (if Grace is captured in Act 1)  – Meredith ordered three Starkhaven mages executed at random. To teach them a lesson.

Act 2
Alain in Gallows (if Grace is captured in Act 2) – Three Starkhaven mages were made Tranquil. I hear they picked at random.

- We have no scheduled appointments this time, apprentice
- No! Helena, it’s me! Don’t you remember me?
- Of course. You are Apprentice Jaken. We were once involved in an illicit relationship.
- Illicit? I love you!
- I am Ser Alrik’s now. He is the only one who can command me.

Mage in Gallows – Many more of us have been given the Rite in recent days.
Templar in Gallows – These mages are getting out of control. We would do better to use the Rite of Tranquility more widely.
Mage in Gallows (templar side) – I heard Ser Alrik place the order for me to be made Tranquil. I passed my Harrowing! He can’t do that!
Grace in Gallows (if captured in Act 1) – They’re getting worse. Now they deny us our grimoires, our staffs. How are we to resist demons when they take all the tools of magic away from us?
Grace in Gallows (if captured in Act 1) – Every day they bring back the corpse of some poor mage who made a try for freedom. I wonder how long they’ll let me live.
Mage in Gallows  – Ser Alrik rescued me from my sins.
Mage in Gallows  – Ser Alrik says the Rite of Tranquility is the only thing that can keep the souls of mages from the Void.

Act 3
Anders (only if rival): "Meredith destroyed the mage underground and the survivors turned to blood magic as the only option."
Blood Mage Dispatches: "The hounds nabbed Franke the Cobbler tonight; no one knows where he is now. Thom Beshcal and his wife were killed three days back. They're no longer just hunting us: they're hunting our friends and family." ("the hounds" = templars)

This doesn't prove that all Templars are abusive rapists anymore than Quentin and orsino proves that all mages are insane Blood Mages.

[Koire]

I'm not saying that all of them are, but some are. Especially in Kirkwall.

Modifié par Koire, 13 mars 2012 - 08:15 .

[Koire]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Are Somniari mages or are they not?

They are exceptionally powerful mages. The only one known to survive in the last 200 years is Feynriel.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Tevinter way: Unacceptable.
The Dalish/other Apostates' way. Unfeasible.
Qunari way: Effective but ultimately unacceptable.
Circle: Flawed, but simply the Best we have, at the current moment.

Can't we introduce some fifth variant? I don't know, allow mages to live in the society, let mage children study in special schools while staying with their families, provide templar training to some city guards and similar forces, alter or fully eliminate the Chantry doctrine. 

Actually, two quotes:
Anders: "The people fear what we can do, but to use that fear to bludgeon us into submission is wrong! And they do it with our blessing!"
Merrill: "Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could". 
I agree with both. It's the fear. The root of all problems.

Modifié par Koire, 13 mars 2012 - 08:32 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A mage may very easily end up naturally wanting power. In a primal setting, a mage would be the appex predator. it would only be natural, if given free reigns, that a mage seeks to be at the top of society, and squash all kinds of resistance. Given his powers, squash may even be quite literal.

True, but all mages will never desire that. Like I said, it goes to personality and ambition. Loghain and Howe weren't mages; look at all the damage they'd done.

I'm not saying give them complete free reign. I'm just saying don't make the Circle a prison, but a true learning environment.

Despite what some posters on this board claims, I have yet to see any concrete proof of mages being disallowed contact with the outside world as a rule. Some mages have probably been so. But it seems more likely that once a mage has passed his Harrowing, he is free to make whatever contact he wants on the outside. As long as it isn't physical of course.

As a magi Warden, if you ask to leave, the Templars won't allow you, saying something along the lines of "You know mages can't leave."

From my knowledge, if a mage does leave, it is only on business. And even then it would be a senior enchanter or the first enchanter. Which means to see simply go outside, you have to be a part of the Circle for years - decades even. Younger mages would only be let out to be used in some battle. So they're sent out to their possible deaths in exchange for going outside.

And magic is never under complete control. it is by its very nature, chaotic. Uldred, for instance, had passed his Harrowing. That didn't help him. So the very taught of endagnering the ones I love around me, jsut so that I could feed my own vain desire to be with them, seems unacceptable, and downright disgusting.

Please don't use Uldred as an example. He willingly submitted himself to his outcome, and his motivation was the belief that Loghain would help the mages. That is why he went to blood magic. I'm talking about mages who don't break any rules, who do what is needed to be in control.

Again. We have numerous examples and references of mages being allowed outside the Circle, and not jsut pertainning to battle situations. Of course, that all helps making the Cirlce sound less bad, so it is promptly disregarded by the general users on here, since it doens't fit into their agenda.

Could you give me an example that isn't battle or business related? I've seen mages outside of the building at the gallows, but I was thinking of how Ferelden mages would be let out, considering their surrounded by water.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Koire wrote...

I'm not saying that all of them are, but some are. Especially in Kirkwall.

True. Some mages are also Blood Mages. Some are decent fellas. Some a sexual deviants, others don't even know what it is. Same goes for all aspects of life. But to claim that the Circle is bad because "all Templars are abusive rapists" are simply an ignorant, and really rather dumb, yet commonly used arguement agaisnt the Circle, Chantry, or both.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Could you give me an example that isn't battle or business related? I've seen mages outside of the building at the gallows, but I was thinking of how Ferelden mages would be let out, considering their surrounded by water.

There are the different court wizards around Thedas, and there is reference of leave allowances in Asunder.

[TEWR]

Which was tied to the spirit. But fine, if you want to go down that road. Avernus had survived for a century or two, and he was trained by the Circle. Albeit with added blood magic, but taht clearly didn't give any more control over demons.

We don't know that he was a Circle mage prior to being inducted into the Wardens. He could've been an apostate that was never once a part of the Circle. He never says anything on where he was trained.

Then you have eitehr selective reading, or you just havn't been discussing the mage issue with other pro-mages as much as me. Since "Sure let Bethany live in the Circle with all the murderous rapist... I mean Templars yadda yadda yadda" attempts at arguing, are amongst the most frequent.

From what I can recall of that particular subject, the actual argument consisted not of "They're all rapists and murderers" but "I don't think Bethany should be in a Circle that has people like Alrik and Kerras and not many people like Thrask and Keran".

That is in no way trying to paint all the Templars as evil. That is simply stating that there are Templars like Alrik and Kerras and not enough like Thrask and Keran.

You know they can't do that without introducing class specific content.

One quest is all that would be needed for each class. Hell, just one quest for a Mage to deal with that specific issue. It's not that big a deal. Or even quests where the protagonist assists NPC mages.

Are Somniari mages or are they not?

they are, but Chantry dogma states that all mages are tormented by demons. Not all Somniari.

Thinking about how to address the other points.

[Koire]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Koire wrote...

I'm not saying that all of them are, but some are. Especially in Kirkwall.

True. Some mages are also Blood Mages. Some are decent fellas. Some a sexual deviants, others don't even know what it is. Same goes for all aspects of life. But to claim that the Circle is bad because "all Templars are abusive rapists" are simply an ignorant, and really rather dumb, yet commonly used arguement agaisnt the Circle, Chantry, or both.

Well, I was not claiming that "all templars are abusive rapists." But I see, you were generalizing.
PS I also edited my previous post above. In case you did not notice) I feel that I should learn to type quicker

Modifié par Koire, 13 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Koire wrote...

I'm not saying that all of them are, but some are. Especially in Kirkwall.

But to claim that the Circle is bad because "all Templars are abusive rapists" are simply an ignorant, and really rather dumb, yet commonly used arguement agaisnt the Circle, Chantry, or both.

It doesn't matter if it's one or all - templars are supposed to protect mages "from themselves and others," they should not be mercilessly beating and raping them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Koire wrote...

I'm not saying that all of them are, but some are. Especially in Kirkwall.

But to claim that the Circle is bad because "all Templars are abusive rapists" are simply an ignorant, and really rather dumb, yet commonly used arguement agaisnt the Circle, Chantry, or both.

It doesn't matter if it's one or all - templars are supposed to protect mages "from themselves and others," they should not be mercilessly beating and raping them.

And mages shouldn't dable in blood magic and demonology. There will always be persons who break the law. To claim that society doesn't function, based solely on those few who doesn't follow its laws, is ridiculous. What about the hundreds of unsung "heroes" who follow the law, and serves to make it work? They never get credit for their work, because it is expected of them to follow the law.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Koire wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Tevinter way: Unacceptable.
The Dalish/other Apostates' way. Unfeasible.
Qunari way: Effective but ultimately unacceptable.
Circle: Flawed, but simply the Best we have, at the current moment.

Can't we introduce some fifth variant? I don't know, allow mages to live in the society, let mage children study in special schools while staying with their families, provide templar training to some city guards and similar forces, alter or fully eliminate the Chantry doctrine. 

 
We could. I have yet to see anyone come up with an actually feasible system, which wouldn't break down the moment they tried to implement it on a massive scale. So given what we got, the Circle is clearly the preferable.

Koire wrote... 
Actually, two quotes:
Anders: "The people fear what we can do, but to use that fear to bludgeon us into submission is wrong! And they do it with our blessing!"
Merrill: "Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could". 
I agree with both. It's the fear. The root of all problems.

Fear stems from a percieved threat, and is only a problem if irrational. Fear caused by magic is rational. The threat a mage pose is very real (erh.. In Thedas anyway....), and have been created through millennia of misuse of magic. For thousands of years non-mages was suppressed by the all-powerful mages of old, this has inevitably lead to the anti-magic sentiment of today's Thedas. And during the years of Chantry rule and the Circle, mages have given little reason for people to rethink their values.

When a man have a bad day, a dog gets kicked. When a mage have a bad day, a village disappears. I'd say the suspecion and fear of magic is fully warranted.

[Zetheria Tabris]

And mages shouldn't dable in blood magic and demonology. There will always be persons who break the law. To claim that society doesn't function, based solely on those few who doesn't follow its laws, is ridiculous. What about the hundreds of unsung "heroes" who follow the law, and serves to make it work? They never get credit for their work, because it is expected of them to follow the law.

Dabbling in blood magic itself doesn't harm anyone, unless something goes wrong, so using that as an argument against rape and beating - which hurts someone else - makes no sense. Unless you mean if the blood mage uses his power for evil and controls minds, summon demons, etc.

I never claimed this. I was just stating the moral bit of the situation. You using what mages do as a rebuttal seems like you're avoiding the point I'm trying to make.

As for the "unsung heroes" evil will always get more attention than good. That's how it is. It isn't a good thing, but that's how it is.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 13 mars 2012 - 09:19 .