2008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

And mages shouldn't dable in blood magic and demonology. There will always be persons who break the law. To claim that society doesn't function, based solely on those few who doesn't follow its laws, is ridiculous. What about the hundreds of unsung "heroes" who follow the law, and serves to make it work? They never get credit for their work, because it is expected of them to follow the law.

Dabbling in blood magic itself doesn't harm anyone, unless something goes wrong, so using that as an argument against rape and beating - which hurts someone else - makes no sense. Unless you mean if the blood mage uses his power for evil and controls minds, summon demons, etc.

I never claimed this. I was just stating the moral bit of the situation. You using what mages do as a rebuttal seems like you're avoiding the point I'm trying to make.

As for the "unsung heroes" evil will always get more attention than good. That's how it is. It isn't a good thing, but that's how it is.

I was merely pointing out that the tearing down of society as we know it, simply because some few Templars are out of control, is ridiculous.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which was tied to the spirit. But fine, if you want to go down that road. Avernus had survived for a century or two, and he was trained by the Circle. Albeit with added blood magic, but taht clearly didn't give any more control over demons.

We don't know that he was a Circle mage prior to being inducted into the Wardens. He could've been an apostate that was never once a part of the Circle. He never says anything on where he was trained.

 
Admittedly I was basing this mostly on the fact that he was wearing Circle designed robes.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Then you have eitehr selective reading, or you just havn't been discussing the mage issue with other pro-mages as much as me. Since "Sure let Bethany live in the Circle with all the murderous rapist... I mean Templars yadda yadda yadda" attempts at arguing, are amongst the most frequent.

From what I can recall of that particular subject, the actual argument consisted not of "They're all rapists and murderers" but "I don't think Bethany should be in a Circle that has people like Alrik and Kerras and not many people like Thrask and Keran".

That is in no way trying to paint all the Templars as evil. That is simply stating that there are Templars like Alrik and Kerras and not enough like Thrask and Keran.

 
Yep, you havn't been on the other side of the discussion. Too often is the arguemnet, "Herpdy derpdy herp! All Templars are bastards, and should all die! Same about the Chantry, herpdy derp..." And honestly there isn't much to argue with, against such a person.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

You know they can't do that without introducing class specific content.

One quest is all that would be needed for each class. Hell, just one quest for a Mage to deal with that specific issue. It's not that big a deal. Or even quests where the protagonist assists NPC mages.

 
In this time and age of gamers daring to whine over their product as if they are entitled to it, you aren't going to see mages gaining any sort of special quest, unless the warrior or rogue getting theirs. The problem is, there is little you can argue would be a warrior specific quest, since he is jsut a normal person, like the rogue, and there wouldn't be any reason for why the rogue couldn't do the awrrior's quest, or vice versa. Hell, even the mage could do the warrior's/rogue's quest.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Are Somniari mages or are they not?

they are, but Chantry dogma states that all mages are tormented by demons. Not all Somniari.

All mages aren't constantly harrassed by demons. All mages are constantly under threat of it though.

[Zetheria Tabris]

Koire wrote...

Can't we introduce some fifth variant? I don't know, allow mages to live in the society, let mage children study in special schools while staying with their families, provide templar training to some city guards and similar forces, alter or fully eliminate the Chantry doctrine.

This is what I think should be done with the mages:

Once they show signs of magic, send them off to the tower. Let their parents have supervised visits once or twice a week. Allow letters to be sent. Give them activities to do when they're not learning magic. Make the Circles as much like a good boarding school as possible.

When the Harrowing is done, allow mages to leave permanently. Housing specifically for mages could be by the Circle or a Chantry, if that's better. Allow them to marry and procreate with anyone they please. Have a templar check on them once a week. If they seem to be losing control of themselves, lock them back up in the Tower again. Making someone Tranquil seems cruel to me...that should only be punishment for someone like Uldred who did unspeakable crimes.

If this was done - no oppression, no confinement - I truly believe that mages wouldn't, as Anders would put it, "go to blood magic because they were backed into a corner."

[dragonflight288]

We could. I have yet to see anyone come up with an actually feasible system, which wouldn't break down the moment they tried to implement it on a massive scale

Both Etheral and I have both suggested feasible systems that would work if given the effort. All it would require is the Chantry losing all power over the mages. Including the templars. The templars exist to protect the world from mage criminals, and protect honest and good mages from the prejudices of the world. That is the job description.

No zealots (as has been the norm) should be recruited. Mages should be allowed to have families. Precautions need to be taken in the case of abominations and blood magic, but templars like Alrik, Kerras, and Meredith have no business having any sort of power and influence in the order. Or even being in it.

You dismiss what we say because you don't believe it'll work.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

We could. I have yet to see anyone come up with an actually feasible system, which wouldn't break down the moment they tried to implement it on a massive scale

Both Etheral and I have both suggested feasible systems that would work if given the effort. All it would require is the Chantry losing all power over the mages. Including the templars. The templars exist to protect the world from mage criminals, and protect honest and good mages from the prejudices of the world. That is the job description.

No zealots (as has been the norm) should be recruited. Mages should be allowed to have families. Precautions need to be taken in the case of abominations and blood magic, but templars like Alrik, Kerras, and Meredith have no business having any sort of power and influence in the order. Or even being in it.

You dismiss what we say because you don't believe it'll work.

Both your systems completely ignores the issue of response time when it goes wrong. And it will go wrong. Some mage, some time, some where is bound to screw up, and he will become an abomination. If he is outside the Circle, there could go weeks even months before the Templars hears of this, time in which the abomination will have caused untold numbers of deaths, and weakened the veil even furhter. That is simply unacceptable.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 mars 2012 - 09:45 .

[Koire]

Let city guards and other state law enforcers have special units that receive proper training so as to deal with mages who break the law. Ensure that the training has nothing to do with the Chantry and its doctrine, and a mage offender is treated just like any other. Wouldn't it work?

Modifié par Koire, 13 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

Emperor, just a question for you. I'm curious.

In Origins, it's possible to have a Circle of Magi established in Orzammar - it says so in one of the epilogue slides, depending on your choices in the game.

Now, dwarves are immune to magic, so they're in less danger from mages than any topsiders, and they're not Andrastians. So what do you think of this outcome? Do you think the Chantry has a right to do an Exalted March on them? (It said they were thinking of doing that because it was the only Circle out of their control)

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 13 mars 2012 - 10:00 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Admittedly I was basing this mostly on the fact that he was wearing Circle designed robes.

Haven't you heard? Mage robes are spiffy. They're all the rage these days, especially in Orlesian courts .

In this time and age of gamers daring to whine over their product as if they are entitled to it, you aren't going to see mages gaining any sort of special quest, unless the warrior or rogue getting theirs. The problem is, there is little you can argue would be a warrior specific quest, since he is jsut a normal person, like the rogue, and there wouldn't be any reason for why the rogue couldn't do the awrrior's quest, or vice versa. Hell, even the mage could do the warrior's/rogue's quest.

So then have a quest deal with NPC normal mages who remark on how often demons plague them. And it would have to be more then just one mage going "Yea man, they're always plaguing me". We'd need a fairly large sampling to make an accurate call on the validity of the assertions made by the Chantry.

dragonflight288 wrote...

You dismiss what we say because you don't believe it'll work.

To be fair it has been a long time since I gave a thorough post detailing how I'd reform the Circle system on a widespread scale. My posts these days when dealing with reform have been very short, one-paragraph posts.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Both your systems completely ignores the issue of response time when it goes wrong. And it will go wrong. Some mage, some time, some where is bound to screw up, and he will become an abomination. If he is outside the Circle, there could go weeks even months before the Templars hears of this, time in which the abomination will have caused untold numbers of deaths, and weakened the veil even furhter. That is simply unacceptable.

If I may tackle this in a weary state of mind....
 
The Mages have Sending Stones. I would have those spread out over the course of the continent -- though I have to wonder how readily available they are. David Gaider said each Circle has one, but he hasn't said much else on the subject -- in the major cities and villages.
 
Should an Abomination break out of the Circle, I would have the First Enchanter of the Circle notify other First Enchanters in the other Circles and tell them to notify their Templars. Then those same First Enchanters would notify representatives of the Circle in the cities and villages so that the Templars stationed there are immediately made aware.

Plus, if the phylactery is intact it would help track down the Mage. Maybe phylacteries of the mages should be present in every Circle, not just one.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 09:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Koire wrote...

Let city guards and other state law enforcers have special units that receive proper training so as to deal with mages who break the law. Ensure that the training has nothing to do with the Chantry and its doctrine, and a mage offender is treated just like any other. Wouldn't it work?

Depends. Do you want your local police force to be addicted to a drug? Do you think there would be enough lyrium to supply ALL cities, towns, villages everywhere with enough  lyrium, and consistently enough to not put their guards through withdrawal? Can the smaller vilalges even afford it? nevermind that mages wouldn't even have to live in a town or village, he could live secluded up in the mountains. And though his deathtoll would certainly be significant smaller, if he turns abomination, he would still weaken the veil to a catastrophic state, unattested by Templars for months.

Too many problems if you ask me.

[TEWR]

Depends. Do you want your local police force to be addicted to a drug? Do you think there would be enough lyrium to supply ALL cities, towns, villages everywhere with enough lyrium, and consistently enough to not put their guards through withdrawal? Can the smaller vilalges even afford it? nevermind that mages wouldn't even have to live in a town or village, he could live secluded up in the mountains. And though his deathtoll would certainly be significant smaller, if he turns abomination, he would still weaken the veil to a catastrophic state, unattested by Templars for months.

David Gaider's word of god on the issue of lyrium dependancy for Templar abilities seems to be wrong based on the actual lore given by Alistair.

Alistair says that only Templars that have taken their vows receive lyrium. He says he never took his vows, but Duncan still recruited him for his Templar abilities/training.

Since he never took his vows, he never took lyrium. And he admits he's never taken it in his life. So he shouldn't have been able to be a Templar and upon becoming a Grey Warden would've told Duncan that he couldn't perform Templar abilities without lyrium.

And there would be no point in teaching it to other Warriors without saying "You'll need to ingest lyrium, you know."

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Admittedly I was basing this mostly on the fact that he was wearing Circle designed robes.

Haven't you heard? Mage robes are spiffy. They're all the rage these days, especially in Orlesian courts

 .
True  But weren't Avernus born like 200 years ago or soemthing, I hoenstly forget how long ago Arland reigned...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
If I may tackle this in a weary state of mind....
 
The Mages have Sending Stones. I would have those spread out over the course of the continent -- though I have to wonder how readily available they are. David Gaider said each Circle has one, but he hasn't said much else on the subject -- in the major cities and villages.
 
Should an Abomination break out of the Circle, I would have the First Enchanter of the Circle notify other First Enchanters in the other Circles and tell them to notify their Templars. Then those same First Enchanters would notify representatives of the Circle in the cities and villages so that the Templars stationed there are immediately made aware.

Plus, if the phylactery is intact it would help track down the Mage. Maybe phylacteries of the mages should be present in every Circle, not just one.

What of the mages who become possessed in a village far away from the Circle. As I recall, your reform caleld for mages to be allowed to live whereever they wanted. Surely they can't have a sening stone each (not that they would really use it in case they became possessed), since they are evidently rare artifacts.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Depends. Do you want your local police force to be addicted to a drug? Do you think there would be enough lyrium to supply ALL cities, towns, villages everywhere with enough lyrium, and consistently enough to not put their guards through withdrawal? Can the smaller vilalges even afford it? nevermind that mages wouldn't even have to live in a town or village, he could live secluded up in the mountains. And though his deathtoll would certainly be significant smaller, if he turns abomination, he would still weaken the veil to a catastrophic state, unattested by Templars for months.

David Gaider's word of god on the issue of lyrium dependancy for Templar abilities seems to be wrong based on the actual lore given by Alistair.

Alistair says that only Templars that have taken their vows receive lyrium. He says he never took his vows, but Duncan still recruited him for his Templar abilities/training.

Since he never took his vows, he never took lyrium. And he admits he's never taken it in his life. So he shouldn't have been able to be a Templar and upon becoming a Grey Warden would've told Duncan that he couldn't perform Templar abilities without lyrium.

And there would be no point in teaching it to other Warriors without saying "You'll need to ingest lyrium, you know."

We have more in game accoutns and Gaiders word that lyrium is needed for Templars to have their abilities, to outweigh whatever Alistair claims. It appears to be a retcon. Especially since Alistair's word does not outweigh Gaider's

[Zetheria Tabris]

To Emperor: Just checking to see if you saw my question for you above?

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 13 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


True  But weren't Avernus born like 200 years ago or soemthing, I hoenstly forget how long ago Arland reigned...

Two centuries prior to Maric's reign.

I hope he did his laundry. Hell, I just hope he changed and bathed, what with all that snow out there.

What of the mages who become possessed in a village far away from the Circle. As I recall, your reform caleld for mages to be allowed to live whereever they wanted. Surely they can't have a sening stone each (not that they would really use it in case they became possessed), since they are evidently rare artifacts.

Actually, it called for them to live in villages or cities that had Templars stationed there. Not anywhere. It also required them to check in with the Templars daily. Simple stuff like "How ya doing? How's your wife?" and all that.

I also don't think they're rare artifacts. David Gaider has simply said that it's reserved for official business. This seems to qualify as official business.

We have more in game accoutns and Gaiders word that lyrium is needed for Templars to have their abilities, to outweigh whatever Alistair claims. It appears to be a retcon. Especially since Alistair's word does not outweigh Gaider's

Do we have more in-game accounts? We simply have accounts of the Templars being addicted to the lyrium they're given because it has diminishing returns.

I would think the fact that Alistair trains a Warrior in Templar abilities and the Warrior is able to perform abilities anyway is proof enough that anyone with sufficient training can be a Templar, regardless of what DG said in an interview or a scrapped concept.

Once it's scrapped from the game -- for whatever reason -- it ceases to be applicable as lore. It'd be like me saying Jowan is a Warden. That concept was scrapped, and is not lore.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 10:19 .

[TEWR]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Emperor, just a question for you. I'm curious.

In Origins, it's possible to have a Circle of Magi established in Orzammar - it says so in one of the epilogue slides, depending on your choices in the game.

Now, dwarves are immune to magic, so they're in less danger from mages than any topsiders, and they're not Andrastians. So what do you think of this outcome? Do you think the Chantry has a right to do an Exalted March on them? (It said they were thinking of doing that because it was the only Circle out of their control)

The issue of a Circle in Orzammar and the subsequent Exalted March considered by the Divine at that time seems to have been dropped for no reason whatsoever. Maybe DA3 will address it (one can hope anyway).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sorry didn't see you question. When TEWR and I start quoting eachother, it tends to devovle into a pure slugfest of quotes within quotes, that blot out the sun... or in this case other posts 

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Emperor, just a question for you. I'm curious.

In Origins, it's possible to have a Circle of Magi established in Orzammar - it says so in one of the epilogue slides, depending on your choices in the game.

Now, dwarves are immune to magic, so they're in less danger from mages than any topsiders, and they're not Andrastians. So what do you think of this outcome? Do you think the Chantry has a right to do an Exalted March on them? (It said they were thinking of doing that because it was the only Circle out of their control)

No, I don't believe so. Chantry has no right to rule all mages everywhere. I'm sure they'd like to think so, but the matter of fact is, that if a nation doesn't follow the Andrastian belief, tehy are free to do however they please with the mages within their borders (within humanitarian reason of course).

However, the Circle established within Orzammar did claim to be part of the Circles, and the Circles, as instituations, are part of the Chantry, so perhaps it wasn't the wisest move from the mages in Orzammar to spite the Chantry like they did.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Emperor, just a question for you. I'm curious.

In Origins, it's possible to have a Circle of Magi established in Orzammar - it says so in one of the epilogue slides, depending on your choices in the game.

Now, dwarves are immune to magic, so they're in less danger from mages than any topsiders, and they're not Andrastians. So what do you think of this outcome? Do you think the Chantry has a right to do an Exalted March on them? (It said they were thinking of doing that because it was the only Circle out of their control)

The issue of a Circle in Orzammar and the subsequent Exalted March considered by the Divine at that time seems to have been dropped for no reason whatsoever. Maybe DA3 will address it (one can hope anyway).

The Divine contemplating it died.....

[TEWR]

The Divine contemplating it died.....

hence why I said at that time. I understand she's dead now, but the issue of the Circle in Orzammar could still be relevant for DA3 in the context of the Mage-Templar war and not the prospect of an Exalted March on one of the last bastions of defense against the Darkspawn.

Sorry didn't see you question. When TEWR and I start quoting eachother, it tends to devovle into a pure slugfest of quotes within quotes, that blot out the sun

good thing I fight in the shade!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 10:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Divine contemplating it died.....

hence why I said at that time. I understand she's dead now, but the issue of the Circle in Orzammar could still be relevant for DA3 in the context of the Mage-Templar war and not the prospect of an Exalted March on one of the last bastions of defense against the Darkspawn.

Well, it wasn't "dropped for no reason". The Divine contemplating the march died, and her successor want mage freedom, so the plans were abandonned because the current Divine don't want to do anything about it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
good thing I fight in the shade!

High orbit is much more fun 

[TEWR]

Well, it wasn't "dropped for no reason". The Divine contemplating the march died, and her successor want mage freedom, so the plans were abandonned because the current Divine don't want to do anything about it.

Still, the issue of a Circle in Orzammar is relevant to the current Divine. I don't mean the Exalted March got dropped, but the concept of the independent Circle itself was dropped by Bioware. So that's why I'm hoping it's addressed in DA3, or at least talked about.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, it wasn't "dropped for no reason". The Divine contemplating the march died, and her successor want mage freedom, so the plans were abandonned because the current Divine don't want to do anything about it.

Still, the issue of a Circle in Orzammar is relevant to the current Divine. I don't mean the Exalted March got dropped, but the concept of the independent Circle itself was dropped by Bioware. So that's why I'm hoping it's addressed in DA3, or at least talked about.

True, it would be a nice and easy way of introducing Orzammar in the DA3 too, since I'm guessing it is gonna take place on an international stage, and the only alternative to presenting the Dwarves would be Kal Sharrok.

[Zetheria Tabris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sorry didn't see you question. When TEWR and I start quoting each other, it tends to devovle into a pure slugfest of quotes within quotes, that blot out the sun... or in this case other posts 

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Emperor, just a question for you. I'm curious.

In Origins, it's possible to have a Circle of Magi established in Orzammar - it says so in one of the epilogue slides, depending on your choices in the game.

Now, dwarves are immune to magic, so they're in less danger from mages than any topsiders, and they're not Andrastians. So what do you think of this outcome? Do you think the Chantry has a right to do an Exalted March on them? (It said they were thinking of doing that because it was the only Circle out of their control)

No, I don't believe so. Chantry has no right to rule all mages everywhere. I'm sure they'd like to think so, but the matter of fact is, that if a nation doesn't follow the Andrastian belief, tehy are free to do however they please with the mages within their borders (within humanitarian reason of course).

However, the Circle established within Orzammar did claim to be part of the Circles, and the Circles, as instituations, are part of the Chantry, so perhaps it wasn't the wisest move from the mages in Orzammar to spite the Chantry like they did.

Hehe, quite all right, I figured you didn't see. :happy:

Thanks for your opinion on that. I thought I read that the Orzammar Circle was completely on its own, but the Chantry still wanted to do an Exalted March. And I think it stopped lyrium trade, too...and we all know how the Chantry feels about lyrium.

[Zetheria Tabris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Emperor, just a question for you. I'm curious.

In Origins, it's possible to have a Circle of Magi established in Orzammar - it says so in one of the epilogue slides, depending on your choices in the game.

Now, dwarves are immune to magic, so they're in less danger from mages than any topsiders, and they're not Andrastians. So what do you think of this outcome? Do you think the Chantry has a right to do an Exalted March on them? (It said they were thinking of doing that because it was the only Circle out of their control)

The issue of a Circle in Orzammar and the subsequent Exalted March considered by the Divine at that time seems to have been dropped for no reason whatsoever. Maybe DA3 will address it (one can hope anyway).

Was the Orzammar Circle canon? If not then that's probably why it was dropped. I hope not, it sounds very interesting.

[Lazy Jer]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Was the Orzammar Circle canon? If not then that's probably why it was dropped. I hope not, it sounds very interesting.

Are you sure you don't mean the Orzammar Chantry?  I remember hearing about a dwarf who was trying to open up a Chantry in Orzammar and needing the Warden's help, and if you do help him it ends up getting broken up and the dwarf in question getting killed while being arrested.  But I haven't heard anything about a Cirlce in Orzammar.  Nor would I imagine they'd need one given that they can't use magic.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 mars 2012 - 07:55 .