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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's a known fact that mages were free for a century or two before the Circle's formation -- but after the Templars had formed -- and the Imperium didn't rise nor did the world fall due to Abominations.

That period of free mages, was called some of the darkest hours of humankind for a reason...

[Tinny1717]

Anders is the same as Meredith? Well I suppose I wouldnt really go that far but they do share some common grounds in decision making. They are both driven by forces that have corrupted their way of thinking and reasoning. In different games I tried siding with both and in the end game process I have come to realize they do indeed share a desperate single-mindedness. Buuuuut Meredith does not have the depth that Anders seems to have. Still it is fun to explore both sides

[Urzon]

Tinny1717 wrote...

Anders is the same as Meredith? Well I suppose I wouldnt really go that far but they do share some common grounds in decision making. They are both driven by forces that have corrupted their way of thinking and reasoning. In different games I tried siding with both and in the end game process I have come to realize they do indeed share a desperate single-mindedness. Buuuuut Meredith does not have the depth that Anders seems to have. Still it is fun to explore both sides

She could have had more depth if they would have taken the time to give it to her. All we see or her is....

"You can't trust mages."

"My sister was a mage. I know the dangers."

And last but not least...

"Mages are evil. YOU'RE evil. YOU ARE ALL EVIL MAGE PUPPETS!!! *Grabs Soul Caliber, goes into Super Saiyan form and goes on a rampage.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's a known fact that mages were free for a century or two before the Circle's formation -- but after the Templars had formed -- and the Imperium didn't rise nor did the world fall due to Abominations.

That period of free mages, was called some of the darkest hours of humankind for a reason...

That was when the Templars were still the Inquisition. Not after they had formed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's a known fact that mages were free for a century or two before the Circle's formation -- but after the Templars had formed -- and the Imperium didn't rise nor did the world fall due to Abominations.

That period of free mages, was called some of the darkest hours of humankind for a reason...

That was when the Templars were still the Inquisition. Not after they had formed.

Right. So? Are you seriously going to say that the one and only organization at the time to fight abominations and blood mages, were the reason for why this was the "darkest hour", or are you going to put the suspecion on the actually most likely culprits?

[Koire]

Urzon wrote...
She could have had more depth if they would have taken the time to give it to her. All we see or her is....
"You can't trust mages."
"My sister was a mage. I know the dangers."
And last but not least...
"Mages are evil. YOU'RE evil. YOU ARE ALL EVIL MAGE PUPPETS!!! *Grabs Soul Caliber, goes into Super Saiyan form and goes on a rampage.

By the way, did anyone read this short story? (one of the top 5 Asunder Winning Entries). I wish they made it canon - I really liked it.

[Koire]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Right. So? Are you seriously going to say that the one and only organization at the time to fight abominations and blood mages, were the reason for why this was the "darkest hour", or are you going to put the suspecion on the actually most likely culprits?

When an empire that existed for hundreds of years falls, and this is accompanied by a devastating war (First Blight) and rapid changes in religion (Old Gods worship -> multiple Andrastian cults -> Chantry), neither mages nor templars are needed to label it the "darkest hour".  Early Middle Ages are called "Dark Ages" for a reason)

Modifié par Koire, 19 mars 2012 - 07:54 .

[Lazy Jer]

Urzon wrote...

She could have had more depth if they would have taken the time to give it to her. All we see or her is....

"You can't trust mages."

"My sister was a mage. I know the dangers."

And last but not least...

"Mages are evil. YOU'RE evil. YOU ARE ALL EVIL MAGE PUPPETS!!! *Grabs Soul Caliber, goes into Super Saiyan form and goes on a rampage.

I thought Soul Edge was the evil one.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's a known fact that mages were free for a century or two before the Circle's formation -- but after the Templars had formed -- and the Imperium didn't rise nor did the world fall due to Abominations.

That period of free mages, was called some of the darkest hours of humankind for a reason...

That was when the Templars were still the Inquisition. Not after they had formed.

Right. So? Are you seriously going to say that the one and only organization at the time to fight abominations and blood mages, were the reason for why this was the "darkest hour", or are you going to put the suspecion on the actually most likely culprits?

Well it wouldn't be any different then what you said earlier, where you cast suspicion on the mages for them being the reason it was the darkest hours in Thedas.

At any rate, my point had nothing to do with who was responsible for the fear of that age. My point was that after the Templars had officially formed -- and with the supervision of the Chantry along with the resources and manpower to be in every Andrastian nation -- the darkest hour had disappeared.

[The Baconer]

Oh. People are still doing this.

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They can't catch them because they don't do their jobs in the first place. They're comprised of almost entirely fanatical zealots. Not people of sound moral character. Those that do have a sense of decency aren't allowed to do their jobs by their zealotous superiors.

You know, it's funny how suddenly Meredith is regarded as the prime embodiment of templar values and proof that they're all just a bunch of sadistic fanatics.

Let's see how many templar superiors we actually know:
DA:O - Knight-Commander Greagoir, seems like a decent fella
DA:O - Knight-Captain Hadley, same
DA2 - Knight-Captain Cullen, same here
Asunder - Knight-Captain Evangeline, ditto (much like her unnamed superior, though this is only hinted at)

Even if we keep the minor NPCs from various side-quests in mind, the only other Knight-Commander who comes off like a truly bad guy is Harrith who works together with a bunch of rogue mages.

The one crazy high officer that springs to mind is Meredith, and she only flips out because of corruption from an outside source (the lyrium idol). A number of "mage apologists" seem to have a tendency to forget that it was her who shot down that silly "make all mages tranquil" idea in the years before act III, something that actually startled Anders ("this cannot be, I don't understand...") as it went against all the bias he held.
The very same bias I see here in these forums in every single mage vs templar thread.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
My point was that after the Templars had officially formed -- and with the supervision of the Chantry along with the resources and manpower to be in every Andrastian nation -- the darkest hour had disappeared.

I'm fairly sure that the period of Tevinter's blood magi reign is regarded as somewhat darker than the brief independence of the Inquisition.
Well, depending on whether you ask a Libertarian mage or anyone else, maybe. 

Modifié par Lynata, 19 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[TEWR]

Gregoir is a decent man. Hadley we see for about two minutes, so we can't comment on whether he's actually a decent man or if he's a douche.

Cullen is meh. And I haven't read Asunder, but from what I know about it Evangeline evolves from being "Bah mages" to "Damn, mages have it rough. I'm going to help them". But her superior isn't exactly the type of person that allows Templars to do their real job.

Plus, he's holding all mages accountable for what one mage born and bred in Tevinter -- with Tevinter culture burned into his skull -- did, because he himself helped that mage get there.

He should blame himself, not mages. He's willing to make it that anyone that shows sympathy for mages shouldn't be a part of the Order in the first place. So, he's a zealot.

Then there's Ser Kerras -- who is reputed to be one of Meredith's higher-up cronies -- and Ser Alrik. There's also Ser Mettin. Ser Mettin told the Templar in his group that wanted to spare mage sympathizers -- that surrendered -- that she was wrong and that they should all die.

Fanatical zealotry is the Chantry's leading recruitment method, and this is told to us through the codex on the Templars. And we've seen more then enough Templars who fit this bill and keep their lessers from performing their duties as a real Templar.

You don't need to be Knight-Commander or Knight-Captain to keep other Templars from doing their job.

Also, really? The redcliffe Templar is a bad guy? Really? Wow.

The one crazy high officer that springs to mind is Meredith, and she only flips out because of corruption from an outside source (the lyrium idol). A number of "mage apologists" seem to have a tendency to forget that it was her who shot down that silly "make all mages tranquil" idea in the years before act III, something that actually startled Anders ("this cannot be, I don't understand...") as it went against all the bias he held.

Considering Ser Bardel reported to Meredith of the illegal tranquilization of mages and she didn't do anything to stop it -- and Alrik threatened Bardel to keep his mouth shut -- her saying "no" seems to be nothing more then her saving face.

And besides, it should be plain as day that more and more Tranquil are popping up. Especially when most of the female mages will flat out say that Alrik is their master now.

Yea, that certainly doesn't seem suspicious in the slightest!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ser Bardel attempted, but never got through to Meredith. Nor did he attempt to report Alrik, but was merely asking questions about wether or not the tranquilizations were legal (presumably).

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Fanatical zealotry is the Chantry's leading recruitment method, and this is told to us through the codex on the Templars. And we've seen more then enough Templars who fit this bill and keep their lessers from performing their duties as a real Templar.

You don't need to be Knight-Commander or Knight-Captain to keep other Templars from doing their job.

 
Which fanatical Templars actually kept their colleagues from doing their job? Honest to god, no-one springs to mind. As a matter of fact, the few fanatical I can think of prevented their colleagues from not doing their job...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Also, really? The redcliffe Templar is a bad guy? Really? Wow.  

 
He is corrupt.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 19 mars 2012 - 07:07 .

[TEWR]

Which fanatical Templars actually kept their colleagues from doing their job? Honest to god, no-one springs to mind. As a matter of fact, the few fanatical I can think of prevented their colleagues from not doing their job...

Ser Bardel was prevented from reporting Alrik about his illegal tranquilizations, if you're so deadset on believing they were never reported to begin with.

ILLEGAL. Meaning a fanatical zealot kept someone that would've done his job by reporting a clear abuse of power from doing his job. If they were sanctioned Tranquilizations, Alrik wouldn't have scolded, reprimanded, and threatened his charge in the first place.

Ser Mettin wanted to slaughter people that surrendered in exchange for their life being spared, and when his charge disagreed with him -- and if she's backed by the Champion -- he's ready to kill her.

Ser Frederick -- or whatever the dead Templar's name in Denerim's alley was -- was also kept from investigating a haven of blood mages by his superiors. And when he went to investigate on his own, he ended up dying for doing his job.

Ser Emeric was told by Meredith not to investigate into the disappearances anymore because she wanted to save face with the nobility.

All of them -- with the possible exception of the dead Templar's superior, though he is by no means doing his job by telling a Templar he's wrong -- are fanatical zealots that kept their colleagues from doing their job properly.

He is corrupt.

Arguable. But that's all I have to say on that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 mars 2012 - 07:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

You know, it's funny how suddenly Meredith is regarded as the prime embodiment of templar values and proof that they're all just a bunch of sadistic fanatics.

I think people who argue against the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi, and the Order of Templars by extension, tend to point to the mass murder of, at the very least, hundreds of men, women, and children as a prime example of how bad the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi can get, particularly when hundreds are being killed for an act that no Circle mage was responsible for. Since Meredith called for the execution of hundreds of people who were innocent of Anders' actions, it's no surprise that people will cite her as part of the reason why they disagree with the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars when explaining their position.

Lynata wrote...

Let's see how many templar superiors we actually know:
DA:O - Knight-Commander Greagoir, seems like a decent fella
DA:O - Knight-Captain Hadley, same
DA2 - Knight-Captain Cullen, same here
Asunder - Knight-Captain Evangeline, ditto (much like her unnamed superior, though this is only hinted at)

I don't think many argue that all templars in existance are evil. People who argue against the current model tend to argue against what the templars do, particularly given how bad it can get (the worst case scenerio would be the Right of Annulment at the Circle of Kirkwall).

Lynata wrote...

Even if we keep the minor NPCs from various side-quests in mind, the only other Knight-Commander who comes off like a truly bad guy is Harrith who works together with a bunch of rogue mages.

The Circle of Starkhaven is said to be bad by the mages who escaped, particularly when they contrast it with the Circle of Kirkwall as being much worse.

Lynata wrote...

The one crazy high officer that springs to mind is Meredith, and she only flips out because of corruption from an outside source (the lyrium idol). A number of "mage apologists" seem to have a tendency to forget that it was her who shot down that silly "make all mages tranquil" idea in the years before act III, something that actually startled Anders ("this cannot be, I don't understand...") as it went against all the bias he held.
The very same bias I see here in these forums in every single mage vs templar thread.

Is everyone who holds a different position than you on the mage issue a "mage apologist"? Is it "bias" to disagree with you about the Chantry controlled Circles? I ask because that kind of thinking tends to be why these conversations go nowhere.

As for Anders, he disagreed with the Chantry controlled Circles, and he was hoping the Grand Cleric could resolve the schism between mages and templars when he saw that she opposed the Rite of Tranquility being forced on all mages. As for Meredith, we see what kind of templars she has at high-ranking positions, so I don't see why we can't comment on what kind of Knight-Commander she is, particularly when two of her "cronies" (as Thrask puts it) are rapists.

Lynata wrote...

I'm fairly sure that the period of Tevinter's blood magi reign is regarded as somewhat darker than the brief independence of the Inquisition.
Well, depending on whether you ask a Libertarian mage or anyone else, maybe. 

Tevinter oppressed everyone who wasn't in power, mage and non-mage alike. There are so examples of societies with mages that are nothing like Tevinter. While Tevinter enslaved mages and non-mages alike, the kingdom of Arlathan was said to have been comprised entirely of mages. The nation of the Dales was governed by elven mages of noble blood. The Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, and the Dalish clans have mages living alongside non-mages, and none of those societies are emulating the brutal slavery that Tevinter imposes on all its people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which fanatical Templars actually kept their colleagues from doing their job? Honest to god, no-one springs to mind. As a matter of fact, the few fanatical I can think of prevented their colleagues from not doing their job...

Ser Bardel was prevented from reporting Alrik about his illegal tranquilizations, if you're so deadset on believing they were never reported to begin with.

ILLEGAL. Meaning a fanatical zealot kept someone that would've done his job by reporting a clear abuse of power from doing his job. If they were sanctioned Tranquilizations, Alrik wouldn't have scolded, reprimanded, and threatened his charge in the first place.

 
Granted that Bardel was kept from doing his job. But not by Alrik's fanatism...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
Ser Mettin wanted to slaughter people that surrendered in exchange for their life being spared, and when his charge disagreed with him -- and if she's backed by the Champion -- he's ready to kill her. 

 
More of a disagreement of their job description than actual fanatism.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
Ser Frederick -- or whatever the dead Templar's name in Denerim's alley was -- was also kept from investigating a haven of blood mages by his superiors. And when he went to investigate on his own, he ended up dying for doing his job.

 
Ser Friden. And I honestly can't remember what his journal says, so i'm gonna refrain from commenting.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
Ser Emeric was told by Meredith not to investigate into the disappearances anymore because she wanted to save face with the nobility. 

 
Because his previous investigation had turned up absolutely squat and a pisspot, and had been a huge embarrasment for the Templars. Not fanatism. You see stuff like this happen in our real life police force.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
All of them -- with the possible exception of the dead Templar's superior, though he is by no means doing his job by telling a Templar he's wrong -- are fanatical zealots that kept their colleagues from doing their job properly.

 
All of them were arguably fanatics, but none of the cases you present had anything to do with their fanatism...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

He is corrupt.

Arguable. But that's all I have to say on that.

There isn't much to discuss. The man is purposedly not doing his job, because he is bought by Collective. He is corrupt.

[TEWR]

Granted that Bardel was kept from doing his job. But not by Alrik's fanatism...

The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.

The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.

Ser Alrik

Firstly, Karl wasn't a danger. Was he planning to escape? Yes. Was he a danger? No.

Secondly, Alrik is very clearly a fanatic, especially given light of how his letter about the Tranquil Solution is riddled with calling the Mages too much of a threat to handle, how Tranquiling them is the best way to serve the Maker, etc.

Yea, he's a saint alright. His fanaticism isn't keeping anyone from doing their jobs.

More of a disagreement of their job description than actual fanatism.

When a disagreement turns violent without sufficient grounds for it, it's no longer simply a disagreement.

They want to have an intellectual debate on what being a Templar is about, that's fine. But doing so does not require wholesale slaughter of both Mage, civilian, and fellow Templars.

It's fanaticism.

Ser Friden. And I honestly can't remember what his journal says, so i'm gonna refrain from commenting.

It basically said what I said it said, only it was in the item's description and not any codex -- if there even was a codex on it.

Because his previous investigation had turned up absolutely squat and a pisspot, and had been a huge embarrasment for the Templars. Not fanatism. You see stuff like this happen in our real life police force

Because a bag of bones, a man running away from the scene where the bag of bones is, and a mage that has had contact with two of the missing people in question doesn't turn up anything.

Yea right. They just weren't looking hard enough.

Even when Hawke says that he didn't pen the letter sent to Emeric, Moira is just like "Eh, no big deal."

Meredith's zealotry contributed to Quentin being on the loose as long as he was.

There isn't much to discuss. The man is purposedly not doing his job, because he is bought by Collective. He is corrupt.

That depends doesn't it? Maybe he needs the lyrium to maintain upkeep on his Templar abilities so he can take down corpses, Darkspawn mages, and Abominations/Maleficarum. The Mages' Collective is a self-policing force of mages that want nothing to do with blood magic. They are doing the Templars work basically in exchange for freedom.

We don't know whether he was ignoring all of his job. Just that he was allowing the Mages' Collective -- who help in making his job easier -- to remain free.

If he had cracked down on them, but dozens of maleficarum wreaked havoc on the countryside as a result -- when if the Mages' Collective hadn't been crushed, they would've taken care of the problem themselves -- would you say he was doing his job?

You probably would, but if one mage being free = 3 maleficarum being apprehended or killed as a result, then that mage being free is worth it.

It's entirely possible that he is working with the Mages' Collective to do his duty in exchange for their freedom, and that he might argue for them to receive sanction from the Templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Granted that Bardel was kept from doing his job. But not by Alrik's fanatism...

The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.

The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.

Ser Alrik

Firstly, Karl wasn't a danger. Was he planning to escape? Yes. Was he a danger? No.

Secondly, Alrik is very clearly a fanatic, especially given light of how his letter about the Tranquil Solution is riddled with calling the Mages too much of a threat to handle, how Tranquiling them is the best way to serve the Maker, etc.

Yea, he's a saint alright. His fanaticism isn't keeping anyone from doing their jobs.

 
Karl was a danger. He had known connections to the mage udnerground and was planning to escape. His succesful escape would mean he could serve as inspiration to many other mages within the Circle, and that he could actively work agaisnt the Circle from the outside. Which he probably would've ended up doing, giving Anders' agenda. But I'll give you, Alrik is the only Templar, in which his zeal actually prevented other Templars from doing their job.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

More of a disagreement of their job description than actual fanatism.

When a disagreement turns violent without sufficient grounds for it, it's no longer simply a disagreement.

They want to have an intellectual debate on what being a Templar is about, that's fine. But doing so does not require wholesale slaughter of both Mage, civilian, and fellow Templars.

It's fanaticism.

 
There weren't any "innocent bystanders" in this case. Every person present was guilty of hidng fugitives. The Templars disagreed about how to merit out justice. Nothing about zealotry here either.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Ser Friden. And I honestly can't remember what his journal says, so i'm gonna refrain from commenting.

It basically said what I said it said, only it was in the item's description and not any codex -- if there even was a codex on it.

 
So you jsut assumed that it was because his superiors were fanatic Chantry adherents that they didn't allow him to investigate? Isn't that quite the assumption? Couldn't it also have been because his superiors felt that it was too dangerous? Or that they didn't feel he had enough evidence? I don't know. But seems like quite the assumption, based on very little evidence, if any.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Because his previous investigation had turned up absolutely squat and a pisspot, and had been a huge embarrasment for the Templars. Not fanatism. You see stuff like this happen in our real life police force

Because a bag of bones, a man running away from the scene where the bag of bones is, and a mage that has had contact with two of the missing people in question doesn't turn up anything.

Yea right. They just weren't looking hard enough.

Even when Hawke says that he didn't pen the letter sent to Emeric, Moira is just like "Eh, no big deal."

Meredith's zealotry contributed to Quentin being on the loose as long as he was.

 
All Emeric's investigation had a grand total of a bag of bones, and a barely seen person fleeing the scene. That was it. He had nothing to go on. And what he did go on, led him to the wrong place, with no evidence. Nothing about zealotry here at all. Just poor work from Emeric's side. Granted he didn't have all that much to go on. But bottomline: Nothing, nothing at all, about fanatism and zealotry here.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

There isn't much to discuss. The man is purposedly not doing his job, because he is bought by Collective. He is corrupt.

That depends doesn't it? Maybe he needs the lyrium to maintain upkeep on his Templar abilities so he can take down corpses, Darkspawn mages, and Abominations/Maleficarum. The Mages' Collective is a self-policing force of mages that want nothing to do with blood magic. They are doing the Templars work basically in exchange for freedom.

We don't know whether he was ignoring all of his job. Just that he was allowing the Mages' Collective -- who help in making his job easier -- to remain free.

If he had cracked down on them, but dozens of maleficarum wreaked havoc on the countryside as a result -- when if the Mages' Collective hadn't been crushed, they would've taken care of the problem themselves -- would you say he was doing his job?

You probably would, but if one mage being free = 3 maleficarum being apprehended or killed as a result, then that mage being free is worth it.

It's entirely possible that he is working with the Mages' Collective to do his duty in exchange for their freedom, and that he might argue for them to receive sanction from the Templars.

So recieveing a bundle testimonies and destroy them so that the Templars won't capture apostates, is now doing his job as a Templar? Right. Gotcha..... And the other quest, that I'm guessing you were refering to, is about giving him a gift of lyrium potions, so that he would remain quite about the collective's activities. He is corrupt to the core. He is protecting the very people he is sworn to hunt, and who may themselves very well be maleficars, despite whatever propaganda they may spread. He is the worst kind of person there is. A traitor.

[LobselVith8]

I'm curious, Ethereal Writer, besides the claim made by Alrik - who is making mages tranquil against Chantry law, and is apparently raping some of them - is there anyone to substantiate or support the claim that Karl had ties to the mage underground?

Because it seems that the only thing he's guilty of is writing letters to a Grey Warden, who specifically left Ferelden to help Karl after reading about the monstrous things that were happening in the Circle of Kirkwall. And Anders seemed to have joined the mage underground as a result of what happened to Karl.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders isn't a Grey Warden anymore by the time of act 1 in DA2, but he is an apostate with connections to the Underground. Thus, Karl's connection to the underground.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm curious, Ethereal Writer, besides the claim made by Alrik - who is making mages tranquil against Chantry law, and is apparently raping some of them - is there anyone to substantiate or support the claim that Karl had ties to the mage underground?

Because it seems that the only thing he's guilty of is writing letters to a Grey Warden, who specifically left Ferelden to help Karl after reading about the monstrous things that were happening in the Circle of Kirkwall. And Anders seemed to have joined the mage underground as a result of what happened to Karl.

I don't think there's anything to support Alrik's claim of Karl being dangerous. I don't even think Anders was involved with the Mage Underground at that time.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Karl was a danger. He had known connections to the mage udnerground and was planning to escape. His succesful escape would mean he could serve as inspiration to many other mages within the Circle, and that he could actively work agaisnt the Circle from the outside. Which he probably would've ended up doing, giving Anders' agenda. But I'll give you, Alrik is the only Templar, in which his zeal actually prevented other Templars from doing their job.

He had known connections to Anders. That's it.

Whether Anders was ever involved with the Mage Underground prior to Tranquility isn't known, and no one seems to say anything that supports the claim of Karl being a danger. It seems to be the warped interpretation of a man hellbent on mind-raping any mage he can.

Sure, he was planning on escaping. But no one -- not me and definitely not you -- knows whether he had involvement with the Mage Underground, whether that connection be Anders or any other mage. But given how nothing supports Alrik's claim, it seems far more likely that he wasn't connected to them at all.

But of course, any mage that wants to escape from the Circle is clearly trying to incite rebellion and sedition by virtue of despising where they are, doubly so if they're being tortured and raped constantly. All Mages are apparently connected to a resistance. It's impossible that Karl was just a mage that wanted to be reunited with Anders where they could run off together.

Anyone that deludes themselves into thinking that staying in the Circle would've taken care of those problems is a fool. Who would believe a mage's claims about a Templar raping him/her? Templars are the Maker's chosen after all!

You'll have to forgive me if I take the biased viewpoint of a man that abuses his power so clearly and has nothing to actually back up his claims with a grain of salt.

There weren't any "innocent bystanders" in this case. Every person present was guilty of hidng fugitives. The Templars disagreed about how to merit out justice. Nothing about zealotry here either.

Ah, so the Templars aren't innocent then? The Champion that's assisting the Templars isn't innocent?

If he wants to execute the mage sympathizers, he shouldn't try and kill his allies as well to accomplish such a goal. That screams fanaticism. He should've just taken them in alive -- acquiescing to their surrender -- and debated about the topic with his superiors alongside the Champion and the female Templar.

What you're supporting is that a prisoner of war be executed. They surrendered. They were to be held accountable for what they did insofar as the Chantry laws are concerned -- even if I vehemently disagree with those laws -- but not like that.

All Emeric's investigation had a grand total of a bag of bones, and a barely seen person fleeing the scene. That was it. He had nothing to go on. And what he did go on, led him to the wrong place, with no evidence. Nothing about zealotry here at all. Just poor work from Emeric's side. Granted he didn't have all that much to go on. But bottomline: Nothing, nothing at all, about fanatism and zealotry here.

Wow. Seriously? Not only are you saying that a severed hand and a man fleeing the scene isn't worth investigating -- you can bet your ass that in our society, hell in any society with laws past present or future, that something like that is worth investigating -- but you're also saying that Gascard was a bad lead.

Yeah, because all of those demons he had under his control and the notes scattered throughout the house -- along with the vials of blood -- don't vindicate Emeric at all. Emeric was so wrong. That place clearly wasn't connected to the disappearances at all.

By calling it a "bad lead", that's what you just said. That Gascard had nothing to do with the missing women.

My God man....

So recieveing a bundle testimonies and destroy them so that the Templars won't capture apostates, is now doing his job as a Templar? Right. Gotcha..... And the other quest, that I'm guessing you were refering to, is about giving him a gift of lyrium potions, so that he would remain quite about the collective's activities. He is corrupt to the core. He is protecting the very people he is sworn to hunt, and who may themselves very well be maleficars, despite whatever propaganda they may spread. He is the worst kind of person there is. A traitor.

Congratulations. You've missed the point entirely!

If the self-policing force of mages is left to their own devices they can assist in improving the perception of mages everywhere. And the codex on them says that they haven't done any magic that goes against the Maker.

Fact: They have improved the perceptions of mages and magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved.

Fact: They make it a point to have any maleficarum killed.

Yeah, they're obviously evil mages. They should be hunted down and killed despite whatever good they do.

They assist the Templars' in what they do in exchange for freedom. The freedom to just live a life.

Again, if one free normal mage = three maleficarum killed, I think that's a tradeoff that people should be able to live with.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 mars 2012 - 01:11 .

[Fast Jimmy]

MAN. This thread is STILL going.

Just throwing my two cents in, but with both of these characters being dead (or, in the case of Anders, killable) then there is a very high possibility that we won't see them ever again for DA3.

Anders IS the same as Meredith... both are dead and probably won't ever be talked about in the Dragon Age world again.

Its time to let this topic wither and die... in my humblest opinions.

[TEWR]

Oh we've moved past the Anders being the same as Meredith aspect. Right now we're discussing.... the Mage Underground itself, fanaticism of the Templars and how it affects the real Templars' duties, and the Mages' Collective.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Karl was a danger. He had known connections to the mage udnerground and was planning to escape. His succesful escape would mean he could serve as inspiration to many other mages within the Circle, and that he could actively work agaisnt the Circle from the outside. Which he probably would've ended up doing, giving Anders' agenda. But I'll give you, Alrik is the only Templar, in which his zeal actually prevented other Templars from doing their job.[/quote]

He had known connections to Anders. That's it.

Whether Anders was ever involved with the Mage Underground prior to Tranquility isn't known, and no one seems to say anything that supports the claim of Karl being a danger. It seems to be the warped interpretation of a man hellbent on mind-raping any mage he can.

Sure, he was planning on escaping. But no one -- not me and definitely not you -- knows whether he had involvement with the Mage Underground, whether that connection be Anders or any other mage. But given how nothing supports Alrik's claim, it seems far more likely that he wasn't connected to them at all.

But of course, any mage that wants to escape from the Circle is clearly trying to incite rebellion and sedition by virtue of despising where they are, doubly so if they're being tortured and raped constantly. All Mages are apparently connected to a resistance. It's impossible that Karl was just a mage that wanted to be reunited with Anders where they could run off together.

Anyone that deludes themselves into thinking that staying in the Circle would've taken care of those problems is a fool. Who would believe a mage's claims about a Templar raping him/her? Templars are the Maker's chosen after all!

You'll have to forgive me if I take the biased viewpoint of a man that abuses his power so clearly and has nothing to actually back up his claims with a grain of salt.
[/quote] 
Do you have any sources to back up your claim that karl didn't have any connections to the MAge Underground? No? Then I guess you are in the same boat as Alrik, just opposite sides...
Matter of fact is: Karl was planning to escape the gallows, and the mage Underground had been helping mages do just that for years. Chances are that Karl had contacts. Unless of course you are suggesting Karl's plan was to walk out the front door.


[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]There weren't any "innocent bystanders" in this case. Every person present was guilty of hidng fugitives. The Templars disagreed about how to merit out justice. Nothing about zealotry here either.[/quote]

Ah, so the Templars aren't innocent then? The Champion that's assisting the Templars isn't innocent?

If he wants to execute the mage sympathizers, he shouldn't try and kill his allies as well to accomplish such a goal. That screams fanaticism. He should've just taken them in alive -- acquiescing to their surrender -- and debated about the topic with his superiors alongside the Champion and the female Templar.

What you're supporting is that a prisoner of war be executed. They surrendered. They were to be held accountable for what they did insofar as the Chantry laws are concerned -- even if I vehemently disagree with those laws -- but not like that.
[/quote] 
I'm not saying I aggree with any of them. I'm saying that their faith in the make had NOTHING to do with the situation at all. Not even the slightest tiniest fragment of a bit.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]All Emeric's investigation had a grand total of a bag of bones, and a barely seen person fleeing the scene. That was it. He had nothing to go on. And what he did go on, led him to the wrong place, with no evidence. Nothing about zealotry here at all. Just poor work from Emeric's side. Granted he didn't have all that much to go on. But bottomline: Nothing, nothing at all, about fanatism and zealotry here.
[/quote]

Wow. Seriously? Not only are you saying that a severed hand and a man fleeing the scene isn't worth investigating -- you can bet your ass that in our society, hell in any society with laws past present or future, that something like that is worth investigating -- but you're also saying that Gascard was a bad lead.

Yeah, because all of those demons he had under his control and the notes scattered throughout the house -- along with the vials of blood -- don't vindicate Emeric at all. Emeric was so wrong. That place clearly wasn't connected to the disappearances at all.

By calling it a "bad lead", that's what you just said. That Gascard had nothing to do with the missing women.

My God man....
[/quote] 
Emeric DID investigate it. He did so for three years. Do you know what he managed to do in those three years? Nothing. Nothing at all. We as the players knows that his leads were solid. But that is metagaming and completely irrelevant. matter of fact is that he caused a major embarrasment for the Templars, and his investigation were shhut down, for lack of results. Same thing happens every single freakin day in our world. And no, faith have NOTHING to do with it.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]So recieveing a bundle testimonies and destroy them so that the Templars won't capture apostates, is now doing his job as a Templar? Right. Gotcha..... And the other quest, that I'm guessing you were refering to, is about giving him a gift of lyrium potions, so that he would remain quite about the collective's activities. He is corrupt to the core. He is protecting the very people he is sworn to hunt, and who may themselves very well be maleficars, despite whatever propaganda they may spread. He is the worst kind of person there is. A traitor.
[/quote]

Congratulations. You've missed the point entirely!

If the self-policing force of mages is left to their own devices they can assist in improving the perception of mages everywhere. And the codex on them says that they haven't done any magic that goes against the Maker.

Fact: They have improved the perceptions of mages and magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved.
[/quote] 
Slef-serving would be the right term. They care nothing for the policies of the Chantry.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...  
Fact: They make it a point to have any maleficarum killed.
[/quote] 
I suppose that is why they have the Warden warn Maleficarum relatives, so that the Templars can't interrogate them about the whereabouts of the Maleficarum.... Jolly good job collective!

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...  
Yeah, they're obviously evil mages. They should be hunted down and killed despite whatever good they do.

They assist the Templars' in what they do in exchange for freedom. The freedom to just live a life.
[/quote] 
They don't want their freedom to "live a life". They want to be able to study magic without the restraint of Templars. Read the codex about the collective again if you have to. It is NOT about living a normal life.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...   
Again, if one free normal mage = three maleficarum killed, I think that's a tradeoff that people should be able to live with.[/quote]
And if it means you have been decieved like a gullible fool, and just let three Maleficarum go.... Well, lets just say you wouldn't be the devoutest Templar in the Chapel...