2008 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I'm not saying I aggree with any of them. I'm saying that their faith in the make had NOTHING to do with the situation at all. Not even the slightest tiniest fragment of a bit

Mettin's faith in the Maker had everything to do with his actions. Mettin calls Agatha a traitor to the Order simply for trying to keep Mettin from killing the mages' family and friends.

He tries to kill Hawke even if Hawke doesn't take any side in the matter, telling the two Templars that they have to sort it out.

And you're telling me his fanatical zealotry had nothing to do with those decisions?

Emeric DID investigate it. He did so for three years. Do you know what he managed to do in those three years? Nothing. Nothing at all. We as the players knows that his leads were solid. But that is metagaming and completely irrelevant. matter of fact is that he caused a major embarrasment for the Templars, and his investigation were shhut down, for lack of results. Same thing happens every single freakin day in our world. And no, faith have NOTHING to do with it.

he was the only one investigating in the first place. Neither the City Guard nor the Templars were helping him. When one man is trying to solve a case on his own, of course he's not going to get far! He's not an all-knowing machine capable of being everywhere!

You give me one real-world case where only one person was working on it. Because I sure as hell can't think of any times where one man was doing a solo investigation.

The Templars' faith kept Emeric from performing a proper investigation.

Slef-serving would be the right term. They care nothing for the policies of the Chantry.

They don't care for being locked away in isolated fortresses. That's it. Nowhere do they say "**** all of the Chantry's laws".

In fact, the representative asserts to the Warden that they don't harm anyone and that they enforce the Chantry's laws.

I suppose that is why they have the Warden warn Maleficarum relatives, so that the Templars can't interrogate them about the whereabouts of the Maleficarum.... Jolly good job collective!

Wrong. Those mages aren't maleficarum. They were accused of being such -- and maleficarum is a term used for mages that practice any forbidden art. Not just blood magic, though that's part of what damns one as being labeled such -- and asked that the relatives be warned as such.

Apparently, an accusation is enough for you to consider it fact.

They don't want their freedom to "live a life". They want to be able to study magic without the restraint of Templars. Read the codex about the collective again if you have to. It is NOT about living a normal life

It's part of it, at the very least.

And if it means you have been decieved like a gullible fool, and just let three Maleficarum go.... Well, lets just say you wouldn't be the devoutest Templar in the Chapel...

Idiom paraphrasing aside, that's precisely the problem with the Templar Order in the first place.

We have constant assertions -- in both the codex on the Collective, quests given, and what the Collective members state -- that they do not tolerate true maleficarum.

The codex says they don't use magic that strays from the Maker's mandate and the Mages say blood magic isn't allowed and they enforce their own laws.

For you, a free mage automatically equals a blood mage it seems, despite all the good the Colective is known to have done.

I'm guessing that if a mage does something good, you think there's an ulterior motive as to why he does it. And that's precisely why mages are adverse to helping Templars in the first place. How can they help if the Templars are just going to suspect there's some other reason why they're doing so other then just wanting to help?

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]I'm not saying I aggree with any of them. I'm saying that their faith in the make had NOTHING to do with the situation at all. Not even the slightest tiniest fragment of a bit[/quote]

Mettin's faith in the Maker had everything to do with his actions. Mettin calls Agatha a traitor to the Order simply for trying to keep Mettin from killing the mages' family and friends.

He tries to kill Hawke even if Hawke doesn't take any side in the matter, telling the two Templars that they have to sort it out.

And you're telling me his fanatical zealotry had nothing to do with those decisions?
[/quote] 
Not anymore than Agatha's faith was keeping her from harming the apostates' families.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Emeric DID investigate it. He did so for three years. Do you know what he managed to do in those three years? Nothing. Nothing at all. We as the players knows that his leads were solid. But that is metagaming and completely irrelevant. matter of fact is that he caused a major embarrasment for the Templars, and his investigation were shhut down, for lack of results. Same thing happens every single freakin day in our world. And no, faith have NOTHING to do with it.[/quote]
he was the only one investigating in the first place. Neither the City Guard nor the Templars were helping him. When one man is trying to solve a case on his own, of course he's not going to get far! He's not an all-knowing machine capable of being everywhere!

You give me one real-world case where only one person was working on it. Because I sure as hell can't think of any times where one man was doing a solo investigation.

The Templars' faith kept Emeric from performing a proper investigation.
[/quote] 
As I recall the City Guard did sweep the foundry, and found nothing. With nothing to go on but a hand, which was already determined who it belonged to, so couldn't be used for much else, and a vague description of a man that could be anyone, the City Guard didn't have much to go on, not to say nothign to go on. Emeric's was a stubborn man however, so he kept on his investigation well beyond what a normal team would ever bother, with so few leads. And for the umptieth time, no for flying ****s sake, the Templars faith had NOTHING to do with it! Where the **** do you get that from? Hoenstly? Not once does Meredith say: "The maker commands you to stop Emeric!" or any such nonsense. It is complete and utter bullcrap to claim that somehow the Templars faith in a higher being kept Emeric from completing his investigation. What kept Emeric from completing his investigation was in part Meredith's concern with keeping the Order's reputation intact with the important people of Kirkwall (read: reputation =l= faith), but mostly, that Gascard was simply prepared enough to hamper his investigation. Faith simply at no point factored into the investigation at any ****ing all. And honestly, continuous attempts to try and waeave faith into it, jsut seems like a deliberate attempt to bash religion...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Slef-serving would be the right term. They care nothing for the policies of the Chantry.[/quote]

They don't care for being locked away in isolated fortresses. That's it. Nowhere do they say "**** all of the Chantry's laws".

In fact, the representative asserts to the Warden that they don't harm anyone and that they enforce the Chantry's laws.
[/quote] 
Saying anything else would be kinda detrimental to the sales pitch wouldn't it?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]I suppose that is why they have the Warden warn Maleficarum relatives, so that the Templars can't interrogate them about the whereabouts of the Maleficarum.... Jolly good job collective![/quote]
Wrong. Those mages aren't maleficarum. They were accused of being such -- and maleficarum is a term used for mages that practice any forbidden art. Not just blood magic, though that's part of what damns one as being labeled such -- and asked that the relatives be warned as such.

Apparently, an accusation is enough for you to consider it fact.
[/quote] 
Not fact. But since those person are apostate, any accusation of Maleficar activities should be taken seriously and taken up on. And I am fully aware that not all Maleficar are using Blood Magic. But the arts they practice have still been outlawed for a reason.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]They don't want their freedom to "live a life". They want to be able to study magic without the restraint of Templars. Read the codex about the collective again if you have to. It is NOT about living a normal life[/quote]
It's part of it, at the very least.
[/quote] 
Since there are Collective memebrs within the Circles, I kinda doubt that it is a main priority...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]And if it means you have been decieved like a gullible fool, and just let three Maleficarum go.... Well, lets just say you wouldn't be the devoutest Templar in the Chapel...[/quote]

Idiom paraphrasing aside, that's precisely the problem with the Templar Order in the first place.

We have constant assertions -- in both the codex on the Collective, quests given, and what the Collective members state -- that they do not tolerate true maleficarum.

The codex says they don't use magic that strays from the Maker's mandate and the Mages say blood magic isn't allowed and they enforce their own laws.

For you, a free mage automatically equals a blood mage it seems, despite all the good the Colective is known to have done.

I'm guessing that if a mage does something good, you think there's an ulterior motive as to why he does it. And that's precisely why mages are adverse to helping Templars in the first place. How can they help if the Templars are just going to suspect there's some other reason why they're doing so other then just wanting to help?[/quote]
The codex entry on the Collective doesn't say once at all, that they don't tolerate blood mages and other Maleficar in their ranks. Nor do I recall any of their quests saying so specifically. Nor does the codex say anyhting about the Collective strictly using Chantry sanctioned magic. But rather that the mages who are using this magic, feels that the constant Chantry oversight is hampering them.

A free mage doesn't mean an automatic blood mage to me. But it does mean an uncontrolled threat. Even if he doesn't want to be.

And if a mage does a good deed, good for him. But if a mage doesn't want the Templars to know what kind of magic he is researching, it means that he is hiding something. And that makes me suspecious.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 20 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
from what I know about it Evangeline evolves from being "Bah mages" to "Damn, mages have it rough. I'm going to help them". But her superior isn't exactly the type of person that allows Templars to do their real job.

We never get to see her real superior. The Knight-Vigilant does not appear in person. However, given what we know about the pre-Kirkwall situation of the mages in Val-Royeaux, how he is criticized by Lord Seeker Lambert - who is not a templar - and that he made Evangeline his second I'm going to take this as a slight indication that he was a pretty decent guy.

And Evangeline was never "bah mages". Conviction of duty and hatred are two different things, and although they can exist simultaneously in a templar, they do not come together as often as you and a number of other posters suggest. In fact, Evangeline has always been pretty lax towards mages, as the novel establishes for the years before its story actually begins (for example her "looking the other way" when mages in love with each other secretly met in spite of curfew).

It's a pretty cool book, by the way - I recommend reading it! I have yet to finish its last third, but I've enjoyed it a lot so far.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
Then there's Ser Kerras -- who is reputed to be one of Meredith's higher-up cronies -- and Ser Alrik. There's also Ser Mettin. Ser Mettin told the Templar in his group that wanted to spare mage sympathizers -- that surrendered -- that she was wrong and that they should all die.

Oh, are we suddenly going to count all the rank-and-file now, because your previous statement about the templar high command being the problem was proven to be untrue? Because if so, I can also throw a number of decent rank-and-file templars around. And I'm pretty sure that when we count each and every single templar whose personality can be judged by his ingame actions or comments that the "good" guys are the majority.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...  
Fanatical zealotry is the Chantry's leading recruitment method, and this is told to us through the codex on the Templars.

Actually, the Codex says "religious fervor", which is not quite the same as fanatical zealotry - although your choice of words is of course much better suited for fulfilling your intention of making the templars look bad.

The Codex further states that another requirement, ranked just as high as religious fervor, is "absolute loyalty" - which includes submission to the local Chantry clergy as well as adherence to established laws and regulations concerning how to deal with the mages in their care. The very thing you are adamant at claiming to get constantly ignored. Why is it that you stress one of these two requirements but completely omit/ignore the other?

LobselVith8 wrote...
Is everyone who holds a different position than you on the mage issue a "mage apologist"? Is it "bias" to disagree with you about the Chantry controlled Circles? I ask because that kind of thinking tends to be why these conversations go nowhere.

It depends on how they argue. Playing down the very real dangers of magic (or even blood magic!), for example, is something that'd have me label the person a "mage apologist". Mere disagreement, on the other hand, has nothing to do with bias.

For what it's worth, I think that I myself might qualify for the label of "templar apologist" in that I do believe the current system to be the safest solution aside from genocide. I am excusing the existence of a number of isolated cases* of abuse for the sake of the greater good, which means safeguarding all of Thedas from harm.

What I don't do is dismissing facts, however. I am aware of the shortcomings in the system and that there is room for improvement - I'm merely convinced abolishing it entirely is a pretty suicidal move risking way too many innocent lives.

Well, maybe we are all a little bit biased. I'm sure that our real life opinions on topics such as freedom, safety and the concept of the "Greater Good" play at least some part in how we perceive the issue at hand, basically pre-shaping our interpretation of whatever facts we are presented with. Kudos to the writers at Bioware, who confronted us with two inherently contradictory stances and yet manage to make us believe in our choice the more we read regardless of which side we picked.

*: Incidents like these exist in every organization with authority, anyways. Would anyone honestly suggest abolishing the police, for example? What matters is how the official laws look like, how the majority of its officers act and whether steps are taken to limit or eliminate corruption amongst their ranks. And the way I see it, all these three conditions are fulfilled in case of the Chantry and the Templar Order.

LobselVith8 wrote... 
There are so examples of societies with mages that are nothing like Tevinter. While Tevinter enslaved mages and non-mages alike, the kingdom of Arlathan was said to have been comprised entirely of mages. The nation of the Dales was governed by elven mages of noble blood.

Indeed, I have given this some thought in another thread already - and I do believe this has to do with how their culture works. Demonic possession requires the victim to be vulnerable in spirit, be it because of greed or vengeance or desire or sadness. It may well be that the Dalish, being a very serene and balance people with a strong sense of community simply lack the "corruption" that comes with human civilization. I mean, just look at their culture.

Either that, or it is something about their bodies that disappears together with their longer lifespan when living amongst humans. Or maybe it is a special safe way of doing magic. For the moment, we can only guess. The Keeper's reaction to Merrill's plan gives us a very good idea, however.

In a lesser sense, the same may be true for the more "feral" tribes of humans such as the Avvar or the Chasind. Grantes, the Avvar are still a very brutal people, but this isn't anything that has to do with their shamans.

Modifié par Lynata, 20 mars 2012 - 03:18 .

[dragonflight288]

.....where's Mettin and Agatha? I don't recall templars by that name. Did I miss a sidequest somewhere?

[TEWR]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz

Not anymore than Agatha's faith was keeping her from harming the apostates' families.[/quote]

Faith had nothing to do with what she was advocating. That was her morality. Ser Agatha is a real Templar.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As I recall the City Guard did sweep the foundry, and found nothing. With nothing to go on but a hand, which was already determined who it belonged to, so couldn't be used for much else, and a vague description of a man that could be anyone, the City Guard didn't have much to go on, not to say nothign to go on.

Emeric's was a stubborn man however, so he kept on his investigation well beyond what a normal team would ever bother, with so few leads. And for the umptieth time, no for flying ****s sake, the Templars faith had NOTHING to do with it! Where the **** do you get that from? Hoenstly?

Not once does Meredith say: "The maker commands you to stop Emeric!" or any such nonsense. It is complete and utter bullcrap to claim that somehow the Templars faith in a higher being kept Emeric from completing his investigation. What kept Emeric from completing his investigation was in part Meredith's concern with keeping the Order's reputation intact with the important people of Kirkwall (read: reputation =l= faith), but mostly, that Gascard was simply prepared enough to hamper his investigation. Faith simply at no point factored into the investigation at any ****ing all. And honestly, continuous attempts to try and waeave faith into it, jsut seems like a deliberate attempt to bash religion...[/quote]

Ah, and here we have the crux of the storytelling problem.

They did a "sweep" of the building, yet failed to discover the trap door that Quentin had used to escape 3 years prior? That's not only bad storytelling, but shows that the Guard and Templars are beyond incompetent and one cannot place trust in either to do their appointed tasks.

Additionally, Meredith had already fallen under the broken idol's influence in Act II since she acquired it then. If faith had nothing to do with it, then insanity sure as hell did. But since the idol exacerbated her zealotry, it's faith. Well, faith induced by insanity.

So either one you want to call it, it's the correct description.


[quote]Saying anything else would be kinda detrimental to the sales pitch wouldn't it?[/quote]

He's operating outside of the Tower, even when a Templar is not too far away. He wouldn't have done something like that if he wasn't telling the truth, even if it was to maintain contact with his Circle friends. That would be just foolish.

Actually, the Collective has a presence in every place where Templars are stationed. If the representatives weren't telling the truth on what they do, they wouldn't have been operating within Templar based areas-- save for Redcliffe.

And considering the codex says they don't do any magic that goes against the Maker, I'm not sure why you're hellbent on claiming they do when you have no evidence of any Mages actually performing such acts. At most, you have what people accused them of.

If I accused you of kicking your dog because I saw someone that looks like you and I was reporting you for animal cruelty, does that mean you actually kick puppies (bear with me on this. I don't actually know if you have a dog or what you look like. Merely an example)?


[quote]Since there are Collective memebrs within the Circles, I kinda doubt that it is a main priority...[/quote]

Main? Probably not. But it is indeed part of why they exist. To live a normal life and to prove to society that mages need not be locked up for their entire lives for society to function normally.


[quote]The codex entry on the Collective doesn't say once at all, that they don't tolerate blood mages and other Maleficar in their ranks.[/quote]

You misread. I said the codex says they don't use blood magic and the Mages -- you know, those Collective representatives -- say they don't tolerate it.

[quote]

Nor do I recall any of their quests saying so specifically. Nor does the codex say anyhting about the Collective strictly using Chantry sanctioned magic. But rather that the mages who are using this magic, feels that the constant Chantry oversight is hampering them.[/quote]

As of yet, this collective has seen no sanction from the templars, and there has been no sign that its members are practicing magic of which the Maker would not approve.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Mages'_Collective

you were saying?


[quote]
A free mage doesn't mean an automatic blood mage to me. But it does mean an uncontrolled threat. Even if he doesn't want to be.[/quote]

Even when they regularly convene in secret and take on apprentices? That seems like you're subscribing to the notion of "Mage go boooom wen dey stub toe! Lock demz up!"


[quote]
And if a mage does a good deed, good for him. But if a mage doesn't want the Templars to know what kind of magic he is researching, it means that he is hiding something. And that makes me suspecious.[/quote]

Or you know, he wants to refine a school so that it's more effective and less demon-inducing when it's making a mage sap away all of his strength.

Mages are restricted in how much they can research any school, IIRC.


[quote]Lynata wrote...

Actually, the Codex says "religious fervor", which is not quite the same as fanatical zealotry - although your choice of words is of course much better suited for fulfilling your intention of making the templars look bad.
[/quote]

Ah yes, the old "You hate all Templars and want to demonize the Order" argument. You have obviously not seen many of my posts where I don't hate the entire Order. But alas, people are so quick to assume that all pro-mage people are anti-Templar cranked up to 11.

You do realize that fervor means intensity? And intensity means to an extreme degree.

religious fervor = extremely religious. That = fanatical zealots.


[quote]The Codex further states that another requirement, ranked just as high as religious fervor, is "absolute loyalty" - which includes submission to the local Chantry clergy as well as adherence to established laws and regulations concerning how to deal with the mages in their care. The very thing you are adamant at claiming to get constantly ignored. Why is it that you stress one of these two requirements but completely omit/ignore the other?[/quote]

Because they abuse their power. And those that don't are told to stop what they're doing by the ones that abuse their power.

A soulless and sadistic bastard that is ready to slaughter all mages is never a good idea. Loyalty be damned, that's just a paltry excuse to justify his actions.

"I'm loyal to the Chantry! I'm a good person!"

[quote]Lynata wrote...

Oh, are we suddenly going to count all the rank-and-file now, because your previous statement about the templar high command being the problem was proven to be untrue? Because if so, I can also throw a number of decent rank-and-file templars around. And I'm pretty sure that when we count each and every single templar whose personality can be judged by his ingame actions or comments that the "good" guys are the majority.[/quote]

Rank and file? LOL no. Thrask himself states that Kerras is one of Meredith's personal cronies. And Kerras rapes Alain if he isn't killed, threatening the latter with Tranquility.

My previous statement said that the Templars' superiors were keeping the real Templars from doing their job. I never once stated "The Knight Commanders and Knight-Captains". To assume that a "superior" automatically means "highest ranking in the Order" is wrong. Just wrong. It means whoever is commanding the individual Templar.

Ser Mettin commands Ser Agatha, and kept her from doing her job.

Ser Kerras commands his group, and they are all ready to slaughter the mages in Act of Mercy. In fact, they even attack Hawke if he just says "Oh yea, Thrask's a good friend of mine." IIRC.

Ser Alrik commanded Ser Bardel, and kept him from doing his job. And Meredith just didn't care when Bardel reported it to her.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 mars 2012 - 04:03 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

.....where's Mettin and Agatha? I don't recall templars by that name. Did I miss a sidequest somewhere?

The Last Holdouts, a pro-Templar quest.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz

Not anymore than Agatha's faith was keeping her from harming the apostates' families.[/quote]

Faith had nothing to do with what she was advocating. That was her morality. Ser Agatha is a real Templar.[/quote] 
Right. So when something does a deed which you deem good, it is a question of morality. But when someone does something you deem bad, it is a question of faith. Instead of just, I don't know a different morality? Granted Faith may bring about a set of morals, but since both templars in question were followers of the same Faith, from the same city, from the same Chantry, their faith had little influence on the matter, but their personality more so.. Mettin were simply more unforgivng than Agatha. Not more faithful.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As I recall the City Guard did sweep the foundry, and found nothing. With nothing to go on but a hand, which was already determined who it belonged to, so couldn't be used for much else, and a vague description of a man that could be anyone, the City Guard didn't have much to go on, not to say nothign to go on.

Emeric's was a stubborn man however, so he kept on his investigation well beyond what a normal team would ever bother, with so few leads. And for the umptieth time, no for flying ****s sake, the Templars faith had NOTHING to do with it! Where the **** do you get that from? Hoenstly?

Not once does Meredith say: "The maker commands you to stop Emeric!" or any such nonsense. It is complete and utter bullcrap to claim that somehow the Templars faith in a higher being kept Emeric from completing his investigation. What kept Emeric from completing his investigation was in part Meredith's concern with keeping the Order's reputation intact with the important people of Kirkwall (read: reputation =l= faith), but mostly, that Gascard was simply prepared enough to hamper his investigation. Faith simply at no point factored into the investigation at any ****ing all. And honestly, continuous attempts to try and waeave faith into it, jsut seems like a deliberate attempt to bash religion...[/quote]

Ah, and here we have the crux of the storytelling problem.

They did a "sweep" of the building, yet failed to discover the trap door that Quentin had used to escape 3 years prior? That's not only bad storytelling, but shows that the Guard and Templars are beyond incompetent and one cannot place trust in either to do their appointed tasks.

Additionally, Meredith had already fallen under the broken idol's influence in Act II since she acquired it then. If faith had nothing to do with it, then insanity sure as hell did. But since the idol exacerbated her zealotry, it's faith. Well, faith induced by insanity.

So either one you want to call it, it's the correct description.
[/quote] 
Hawke goes through the damn foundry and doesn't find the trapdoor either. Because it is concealed, and likely by magic. Which also explains why no one else finds it. Hawke even comments on the trapdoor in act 2, stating it wasn't there last time they were in the foundry.

And Meredith had just recently acquired the idol in act 2, and had not even gotten it forged into a blade yet, so she wasn't influenced by it yet. Or at least, it is pure speculation that she was at this point. And no.... Again.... Not faith, nor insanity had anything at all to do with why the investigation was called off. It were simply because that during the three years Emeric had been doing his investigation he had achieved a whole lot of nothing. There simply were absolutely no proof to confirm his suspecion that every random (though proven not so random) murder in Kirkwall in the past few years were connected. Furtehrmore he ended up embarrasing the Templar Order, which simply sealed the deal. His investigation, because of its fruitlesness, had now become a liability. So it was ended. It was simply pure and simple protocol, and even logic that ended his investigation.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Saying anything else would be kinda detrimental to the sales pitch wouldn't it?[/quote]He's operating outside of the Tower, even when a Templar is not too far away. He wouldn't have done something like that if he wasn't telling the truth, even if it was to maintain contact with his Circle friends. That would be just foolish.

Actually, the Collective has a presence in every place where Templars are stationed. If the representatives weren't telling the truth on what they do, they wouldn't have been operating within Templar based areas-- save for Redcliffe.

And considering the codex says they don't do any magic that goes against the Maker, I'm not sure why you're hellbent on claiming they do when you have no evidence of any Mages actually performing such acts. At most, you have what people accused them of.

If I accused you of kicking your dog because I saw someone that looks like you and I was reporting you for animal cruelty, does that mean you actually kick puppies (bear with me on this. I don't actually know if you have a dog or what you look like. Merely an example)?
[/quote] 
The codex says that so far, there have been no signs of the collective doing anything illegal. Yet many of the quests we do for them, obviously show that is not the case.
And the fact that they operate in the vicinity of Templars means nothing. If the Templars knew they were collective representatives, they would arrest them. Wether or not they tell the truth to the Warden is an unknown. I'm jsut basing my judgement off of the quest we do for them.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Since there are Collective memebrs within the Circles, I kinda doubt that it is a main priority...[/quote]Main? Probably not. But it is indeed part of why they exist. To live a normal life and to prove to society that mages need not be locked up for their entire lives for society to function normally.
[/quote] 
Not even integrating into society seems their priority. If you want to integrate into society why do you make your "lair" in the middle of a damn cursed forrest?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]The codex entry on the Collective doesn't say once at all, that they don't tolerate blood mages and other Maleficar in their ranks.[/quote]You misread. I said the codex says they don't use blood magic and the Mages -- you know, those Collective representatives -- say they don't tolerate it.
[/quote] 
No the codex doesn't say that. it says that there have been no signs of them doing so, as of the writing of that entry. The quests we do for them, shows otherwise.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
Nor do I recall any of their quests saying so specifically. Nor does the codex say anyhting about the Collective strictly using Chantry sanctioned magic. But rather that the mages who are using this magic, feels that the constant Chantry oversight is hampering them.[/quote]

As of yet, this collective has seen no sanction from the templars, and there has been no sign that its members are practicing magic of which the Maker would not approve.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Mages'_Collective

you were saying?
[/quote] 
And the lines you quote, are even so helpful to prove my point. The codex doesn't say that they don't use it, nor forbid it. Just that there have been no signs of it. at the time of writing it.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
A free mage doesn't mean an automatic blood mage to me. But it does mean an uncontrolled threat. Even if he doesn't want to be.[/quote]

Even when they regularly convene in secret and take on apprentices? That seems like you're subscribing to the notion of "Mage go boooom wen dey stub toe! Lock demz up!"
[/quote] 
Yeah... One of thode apprentices turned into an abomination which killed his master, and the Warden was only lucky that he happened across this abomination by mere chance, or else it would probably have kileld again. So yes. Even then, they are a danger.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
And if a mage does a good deed, good for him. But if a mage doesn't want the Templars to know what kind of magic he is researching, it means that he is hiding something. And that makes me suspecious.[/quote]

Or you know, he wants to refine a school so that it's more effective and less demon-inducing when it's making a mage sap away all of his strength.

Mages are restricted in how much they can research any school, IIRC.
[/quote]
If he wants to refine his school, he can ask the First Enchanter for permission to study into the field, and he will get an answer. If it isn't the answer he was looking for, that is just too bad for him. Genetists aren't allowed to study too far into the field of stimcells, so they work within the confines of the law. Most of them does anyway...

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Is everyone who holds a different position than you on the mage issue a "mage apologist"? Is it "bias" to disagree with you about the Chantry controlled Circles? I ask because that kind of thinking tends to be why these conversations go nowhere.

It depends on how they argue. Playing down the very real dangers of magic (or even blood magic!), for example, is something that'd have me label the person a "mage apologist". Mere disagreement, on the other hand, has nothing to do with bias.

I don't think most people who argue in favor of the mages downplay the dangers of magic, since almost all of them argue in favor of mages being instructed on how to control and use their powers responsibly. The dichotomy exists between those in favor of the Chantry controlled Circles, and those who disagree with it (and even suggest alternatives) because they argue it causes more problems than it solves.

Of course, it comes down to perception. Is the incident at Redcliffe an example of how necessary the Chantry controlled Circle is, or is it an example of how the perception of mages lead to Isolde keeping her child from going in the first place? Would one argue that the mage rebellion at the Circle of Ferelden illustrates that the Order of Templars is necessary for the safety of the people, or is it an example of how the downtrodden will always struggle against oppression? Not everyone views the situation in the same way.

Blood mage is another example that splits fans. We have Quentin as an example of a mage who abuses blood magic, and uses it for vile (and completely ridiculous) purposes. Merrill, on the other hand, uses it responsibly for several years, and doesn't use her abilities to hurt innocent people, or to coerce people into agreeing with her (i.e. if Hawke refuses to hand over the ancient elven tool (the arulin'holm) that the Keeper Marethari promised to give her). Grey Wardens are created by means that many have argued is blood magic, and Duncan notes that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn.

Even the canon on blood magic addresses the dichotomy in how it's used: "Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons." The views on blood magic split fans because there are pros and cons to how it can be effectively utilized by mages.

Lynata wrote...

For what it's worth, I think that I myself might qualify for the label of "templar apologist" in that I do believe the current system to be the safest solution aside from genocide. I am excusing the existence of a number of isolated cases* of abuse for the sake of the greater good, which means safeguarding all of Thedas from harm.

I think that would make you pro-templar, to agree with the Chantry controlled Circles and the Order of Templars. I'm not certain it makes you an apologist to have a different opinion than me on the mage issue; I think it boils down towards the idea that we simply see a particular scenerio, and don't come to the same conclusion. Not everyone is going to agree on whether the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars were correct in their methods, or whether the mages deserve autonomy from the Chantry and its templars. People hold different views, and I don't think either side diminishes the views about the dangers that exist from either group.

Lynata wrote...

What I don't do is dismissing facts, however. I am aware of the shortcomings in the system and that there is room for improvement - I'm merely convinced abolishing it entirely is a pretty suicidal move risking way too many innocent lives.

Well, maybe we are all a little bit biased. I'm sure that our real life opinions on topics such as freedom, safety and the concept of the "Greater Good" play at least some part in how we perceive the issue at hand, basically pre-shaping our interpretation of whatever facts we are presented with. Kudos to the writers at Bioware, who confronted us with two inherently contradictory stances and yet manage to make us believe in our choice the more we read regardless of which side we picked.

*: Incidents like these exist in every organization with authority, anyways. Would anyone honestly suggest abolishing the police, for example? What matters is how the official laws look like, how the majority of its officers act and whether steps are taken to limit or eliminate corruption amongst their ranks. And the way I see it, all these three conditions are fulfilled in case of the Chantry and the Templar Order.

Honestly, I don't think either side really dismissing facts, as much as views the entire scenerio differently based on those facts. It's why the pro-templar side would argue that the Chantry controlled Circles are necessary, while the pro-mage side would disagree because they don't think the status quo is effective or necessary. Both sides have used the same examples, but seen the same situation differently when either side has argued their points, i.e. the incident at Redcliffe with Connor. I don't think it's surprising, given the nature of the situation.

I think it's natural to have different views on the issue. It's no different than the characters of the Dragon Age universe, who have their own views on the mage issue: Fenris can argue in support of the current system established by the Chantry and argue that it's necessary for the greater good, while Anders can argue that the system is slavery. I think Greagoir and Cullen would agree with Fenris on the merits of the Chantry controlled Circles, but Aldenon the Great (who co-founded Ferelden with Calenhad) and a pro-mage Hawke have argued that the Chantry controlled Circle is slavery. It's a stark difference of opinion that exists in canon. I think that it comes down to multiple characters having very different views on the effectiveness of the Chantry controlled Circles, what the Circles of Magi are to mages, and how productive they are.

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote... 

There are also examples of societies with mages that are nothing like Tevinter. While Tevinter enslaved mages and non-mages alike, the kingdom of Arlathan was said to have been comprised entirely of mages. The nation of the Dales was governed by elven mages of noble blood.

Indeed, I have given this some thought in another thread already - and I do believe this has to do with how their culture works. Demonic possession requires the victim to be vulnerable in spirit, be it because of greed or vengeance or desire or sadness. It may well be that the Dalish, being a very serene and balance people with a strong sense of community simply lack the "corruption" that comes with human civilization. I mean, just look at their culture.

Either that, or it is something about their bodies that disappears together with their longer lifespan when living amongst humans. Or maybe it is a special safe way of doing magic. For the moment, we can only guess. The Keeper's reaction to Merrill's plan gives us a very good idea, however.

In a lesser sense, the same may be true for the more "feral" tribes of humans such as the Avvar or the Chasind. Grantes, the Avvar are still a very brutal people, but this isn't anything that has to do with their shamans.

I'd be curious to learn more about the other cultures of Thedas, because it does provoke some interesting thoughts on how different their cultures are from the ones we have witnessed. I really wish that we could have learned more about the Dalish, for instance, from Merrill. I know that Gaider said that mages aren't controlled among the Chasind or in the Kindgom of Rivain (I'm assuming he meant the seers specifically), but that abominations do happen, although they are seen as "natural disasters" by the people.

If I recall correctly, the developers were considering making one of the avaliable Origins for The Warden from the Avvar background.

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You do realize that fervor means intensity? And intensity means to an extreme degree.

And still there is a big difference between fervor/zeal and blind fanaticism. Although closely related, one is much more aggressive than the other and a step above. An important thing to keep in mind for the discussion, especially given that few of the templars we see across all games strike us as "religious nutjobs" in a constant state of blind rage against anything going against their faith.

Here's the actual Codex quote for comparison, by the way:

While mages often resent the templars as symbols of the Chantry's control over magic, the people of Thedas see them as saviors and holy warriors, champions of all that is good, armed with piety enough to protect the world from the ravages of foul magic. In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices.

Nowhere does it highlight extreme fanatism (as opposed to "normal" steadfast faith as expected from any Chantry member and in fact shared by many mages as well) - and whilst a flawless moral center is only a secondary concern, it apparently is a concern nonetheless.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Because they abuse their power. And those that don't are told to stop what they're doing by the ones that abuse their power.

Ah, so because of a few templars abusing their power, the requirement of "absolute loyalty" doesn't count? But on the other hand one or two mad templars mean the entire Order is a bunch of incompetent fanatics - because it says so in the Codex?

I for one do believe that isolated cases should be treated as such. And for what it's worth, there seem to be much more evil blood mages than corrupt templars around...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
A soulless and sadistic bastard that is ready to slaughter all mages is never a good idea.

Soulless and sadistic? Where in the Codex have you spotted that line?
On the contrary: The Chant of Light and the current Divine herself preach compassion and virtue, including mercy for mages. "Religious fervor" would henceforth dictate a strong belief in and strict adherence to these virtues.

From the Canticle of Transfigurations:

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.

--> Don't slap the mages, lest the Maker gets angry.

Those who bear false witness
And work to deceive others, know this:
There is but one Truth.
All things are known to our Maker
And He shall judge their lies.

--> Don't cover up crimes committed by your fellow man, lest the Maker gets angry.

What you are proposing is that the templars harbor a strong tendency to simply not care for the Chantry and their faith. I find this hard to believe.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rank and file? LOL no. Thrask himself states that Kerras is one of Meredith's personal cronies. And Kerras rapes Alain if he isn't killed, threatening the latter with Tranquility.

*If* that was actually referring to rape - the fact that Alain believes Karras would want to silence him pretty much indicates he'd be in danger if word would get out, no?

A number of players also seem to have gotten that dialogue after Karras was already dead, suspecting that Alain is in fact experiencing demonic corruption whilst being in the Fade at night. *shrug*

On an interesting sidenote, this I found on Alain's wiki page:
If Hawke subsequently talks to Alain in the Gallows courtyard, he tells that the Starkhaven Circle was never like this. The templars beat the mages and no one says a thing. They won't let him send mail out, and he found a letter to his parents that they burned in the furnace.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ser Mettin commands Ser Agatha, and kept her from doing her job.

I don't see any indication for Mettin being higher in rank than Agatha. Especially given that Agatha has several templar supporters aiding her in combat, too.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ser Kerras commands his group, and they are all ready to slaughter the mages in Act of Mercy.

And yet they don't. At least in my playthrough Karras simply took them into custody.

Are they cautious and ready to kill them? Of course - these mages have gone rogue, and in Kirkwall rogue mages usually mean a lot of trouble, as I'm sure you won't try to argue.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ser Alrik commanded Ser Bardel, and kept him from doing his job. And Meredith just didn't care when Bardel reported it to her.

This is something EmperorSahlertz has already dealt with, and I agree with his assessment. Unlike pre-idol Meredith, Alrik is the chief example of what a templar is not supposed to be.

--

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think most people who argue in
favor of the mages downplay the dangers of magic, since almost all of them argue in favor of mages being instructed on how to control and use
their powers responsibly.

Well, from what I have seen the majority of people argueing on the pro-made side of things believe in a mages' willpower alone being sufficient to prevent any incidents, as if training them would be enough to nullify all risk of demonic possession or even the lure of power for personal gain. This is what I regard as irresponsible hubris. Call me pessimistic, but I don't believe for a second that most human mages are strong enough to resist this kind of temptation. Otherwise, politics and economy would look a lot different, both in Thedas as well as our own real world.

If I were a mage and knew that there was a spell for mind control, I know I'd have a hard time resisting the urge to look it up, regardless of what some law says. When I'm not confined to a Tower where a bare minimum of oversight can be maintained, who's gonna stop me?
This is why I thought that ideas such as "report to a templar from a time to time" are pretty naive. As if I'd tell them anything! See: Quentin/Orsino.

Then we have comments such as the Harrowing being evil tyranny - as if these players would prefer a mage turning into an Abomination on a marketplace instead of a secure chamber inside a Circle Tower.
Or about blood magic being "just another tool" like some sword or a gun, dismissing the fact that it has a weakening effect on the Veil, making it easier for demons to cross over into the real world.

Maybe modern Tevinter is a good example of what happens if you allow mages this kind of freedom - it'll likely take another couple centuries before they'd start practicing blood magic en masse again, but from what I've read so far there is a strong resurgence in mages lording over normal people again on the simple basis of them having arcane power. Might makes right, and magic is without doubt the most potent weapon in all of Thedas. However, as we all know, power corrupts, and the more power you have, ...

That is the reasoning behind my stance, anyways.

Modifié par Lynata, 20 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[DKJaigen]

That is the reasoning behind my stance, anyways.

And that sort of reasoning is why mages will inflict horrendous war crimes on the general populace in the coming war (and the common populace deserve it for their stupidty) . You isolated the mages from common society and have no loyalty to king , country or people. The only thing protecting the common people is a thin barrier of morals and since the mages are fighting for their survival i dont think they will hold on to morals for long.

In short the templars have created an army of monsters. So i find your reasons invalid.

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think most people who argue in favor of the mages downplay the dangers of magic, since almost all of them argue in favor of mages being instructed on how to control and use their powers responsibly.

Well, from what I have seen the majority of people argueing on the pro-made side of things believe in a mages' willpower alone being sufficient to prevent any incidents, as if training them would be enough to nullify all risk of demonic possession or even the lure of power for personal gain. This is what I regard as irresponsible hubris. Call me pessimistic, but I don't believe for a second that most human mages are strong enough to resist this kind of temptation. Otherwise, politics and economy would look a lot different, both in Thedas as well as our own real world.

I think the majority of people on the pro-mage side argue in favor of proper instruction for mages, without having a religious institution that seems to preach a message about mages that some of us view as anti-mage.

Should a religious institution have control over the lives of countless people all across the continent, particularly when their religious views about these specific people seem to be overly negative, to the point of blaming all mages for their version of "original sin"? It gives the Chantry dangerous levels of power in the Andrastian nations. Even Cullen makes a point of saying that templars have "divine right" over mages, when he argues why Grand Cleric Elthina must side with the templars against the mages. Some of us think that this causes more problems than it solves. Look at what happened in Kirkwall: every man, woman, and child of the Gallows was sentenced to death, for the actions of one, ex-Grey Warden mage who had never been a member of the Circle of Kirkwall.

Giving control over all mages to the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars already lead to a continential rebellion, and throughout the history of Thedas there have been rebellions for mage freedom, such as Aldenon's rebellion against the Order of Templars in Ferelden.

Lynata wrote...

If I were a mage and knew that there was a spell for mind control, I know I'd have a hard time resisting the urge to look it up, regardless of what some law says. When I'm not confined to a Tower where a bare minimum of oversight can be maintained, who's gonna stop me?

Isn't that an argument for law enforcement, rather than handing over the lives of mages to a religious order that views them with disdain? Particularly when numerous Andrastian refer to mages being "cursed"?

Lynata wrote...

This is why I thought that ideas such as "report to a templar from a time to time" are pretty naive. As if I'd tell them anything! See: Quentin/Orsino.

Quentin is implied to be from the Circle of Starkhaven (based on Gascard's note), and Orsino was from the Circle of Kirkwall. How are they examples of how necessary the Chantry controlled Circles are? In fact, neither character is even stopped by the templars; Meredith dismisses the reports about a serial killer, and Orsino's turn into an abomnation is halted by Hawke and his (or her) moiety crew.

Lynata wrote...

Then we have comments such as the Harrowing being evil tyranny - as if these players would prefer a mage turning into an Abomination on a marketplace instead of a secure chamber inside a Circle Tower.

Arguments have been made about how effective the Harrowing is when the mages are basically thrown into the Fade with little insight about what they are supposed to do. Apostate Hawke, Warden Bethany, and Merrill are simply three apostates who are examples of mages who don't become abominations, without going through the Harrowing. If Bethany is brought to the Gallows by Cullen, it's noted that she's immediately given her Harrowing, with no instruction on what she's supposed to do when she enters the Fade. Since it doesn't protect the mage against future possession (as we see from Abomination Uldred in Origins), there are arguments as to whether it's necessary or not.

Lynata wrote...

Or about blood magic being "just another tool" like some sword or a gun, dismissing the fact that it has a weakening effect on the Veil, making it easier for demons to cross over into the real world.

Those references are made in addressing that blood magic isn't inherently evil, because it's a method of magic, and its uses are entirely dependent on the mage using it. The lore about why some mages turn to blood mage also state that some see it as the only truly free method of magic, that isn't tied to the Fade (the full lore statement I provided previously).

Lynata wrote...

Maybe modern Tevinter is a good example of what happens if you allow mages this kind of freedom - it'll likely take another couple centuries before they'd start practicing blood magic en masse again, but from what I've read so far there is a strong resurgence in mages lording over normal people again on the simple basis of them having arcane power. Might makes right, and magic is without doubt the most potent weapon in all of Thedas. However, as we all know, power corrupts, and the more power you have, ...

That is the reasoning behind my stance, anyways.

Wouldn't that mean that the Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivain, and the Dalish should be exactly like Tevinter, then? If free mages mean another Tevinter, wouldn't those societies (with free mages) start emulating the oppression and slavery that exists in the Imperium? Since those societies don't try to re-create Tevinter, doesn't it stand to reason that mages having autonomy from the Chantry doesn't mean that another Tevinter will arise?

[TheRedCaptain]

This whole argument makes me glad that no matter who you pick to support, both sides go crazy and you get to slaughter dozens from each side.

Anders and Meredith were both insane, I was glad to put my knife in Anders' ribs and then curbstomp Meredith. As far as I'm concerned the city needed that civil war so all the crazies could die at Hawke's hands.

[Koire]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Anders isn't a Grey Warden anymore by the time of act 1 in DA2, but he is an apostate with connections to the Underground. Thus, Karl's connection to the underground.

Not exactly. Anders joins the underground after the death of Karl and as a result of his death (Codex). The first time he mentions the underground (Codex) is in the dialogue in Act 2. There is nothing in the game that would indicate any connections in Act 1.

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Anders IS the same as Meredith... both are dead and probably won't ever be talked about in the Dragon Age world again.

 
Given this:
"There were some plans to address that but in the end it became very complicated. I think there are a couple possibilities. One is that the spirit within Anders can affect the level of his corruption, so it may delay or remove the necessity for his Calling altogether. Either that or at some point the corruption within Anders is going to corrupt the spirit. I think those are the two most likely outcomes. I'm not going to say which of those we prefer, because Anders can survive DA2 so therefore there's a possibility that we may need him in the future."
there is at least some probability that you are wrong.

Lynata wrote...
And Evangeline was never "bah mages". Conviction of duty and hatred are two different things, and although they can exist simultaneously in a templar, they do not come together as often as you and a number of other posters suggest. In fact, Evangeline has always been pretty lax towards mages, as the novel establishes for the years before its story actually begins (for example her "looking the other way" when mages in love with each other secretly met in spite of curfew).

Yep, and this is exactly the reason why Evangeline left the templars - there is no place for such people in the Order in its current state.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And Meredith had just recently acquired the idol in act 2, and had not even gotten it forged into a blade yet, so she wasn't influenced by it yet. Or at least, it is pure speculation that she was at this point.

I think I have proof for you:
Act 2, Alain in the Gallows (only if you sent Grace to the Circle in Act 1): "I-I think the knight-commander’s crazy. They say she hears voices."

Lynata wrote...
On an interesting sidenote, this I found on Alain's wiki page:
If Hawke subsequently talks to Alain in the Gallows courtyard, he tells that the Starkhaven Circle was never like this. The templars beat the mages and no one says a thing. They won't let him send mail out, and he found a letter to his parents that they burned in the furnace.

Wow) It's really ironic that a templar supporter is using something I've recently added to the wiki myself to prove a point  I'm Asherinka on the wiki)
The exact line is: "Starkhaven was never like this. The templars beat us and no one says a thing".
  

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the majority of people on the pro-mage side argue in favor of proper instruction for mages, without having a religious institution that seems to preach a message about mages that some of us view as anti-mage.

This.

Modifié par Koire, 20 mars 2012 - 09:49 .

[Lynata]

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
And that sort of reasoning is why mages will inflict horrendous war crimes on the general populace in the coming war (and the common populace deserve it for their stupidty) . You isolated the mages from common society and have no loyalty to king , country or people. The only thing protecting the common people is a thin barrier of morals and since the mages are fighting for their survival i dont think they will hold on to morals for long.[/quote]In that war, I'd wager everyone will fight for survival. Given that neither the Chantry nor the mages are unified fronts on this issue, however, I'm interested to see just who is going to fight whom, for how long, and why.

And as I said, I regard the relative isolation as the best possible compromise between the dangers of uncontrolled magic and outright genocide. It may well be that this conflict, fueled by a few overzealous templars on one side and a few pampered mages on the other, was ultimately inevitable. At least the Circles have kept Thedas relatively safe for many centuries, and this time the normal people have the advantage of the templars' unique abilities in countering arcane spells.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the majority of people on the pro-mage side argue in favor of proper instruction for mages, without having a religious institution that seems to preach a message about mages that some of us view as anti-mage.[/quote]Ah! But is this really the issue? Ultimately, a secular institution would have to employ much the same means - with the added problem that any lord or king would feel tempted to use this army of mages against other nobles or neighboring countries in the usual political powergames instead of limiting their offensive use to Exalted Marches and fighting the Darkspawn, as the international trans-boundary Chantry does. Thedas doesn't yet have something like the United Nations, after all.

The only alternative I'd see would be placing all mages under the direct command of the Grey Wardens, likely against much resistance from the Chantry and the various sovereigns. But whilst the Grey Wardens would be able to keep mages in check without bothering about religion, would this really better their lot? They'd still not have the freedom that many of them want - the only thing you'd achieve would be making it an internal issue of the Grey Wardens, with potentially disastrous results for their order.

With most Libertarian Mages, it just seems as if there are no half measures as far as liberty is concerned. Give them an inch* and they want a yard. And of course few of them are actually thinking ahead. Anders' suggested alternative to the Chantry Circles is to copy the current Tevinter Imperium (-> dialogue from DA:O), but this only shows how egocentric his worldview actually is. No wonder he can't get along with Fenris, who knows exactly what this means.

*: Compare the mages' situation shortly after the Tevinter Imperium was toppled to the recent years. Mages were allowed the practice of many more spells than in the first decades, they had occasional jaunts out of the Tower, their fraternities (even the rebellious ones) were condoned, ...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Should a religious institution have control over the lives of countless people all across the continent, particularly when their religious views about these specific people seem to be overly negative, to the point of blaming all mages for their version of "original sin"?[/quote]Actually, this is not quite what the Chantry teaches. And mages are feared because of the very real dangers they represent - a fear that is not at all connected to any religion, and which does show up in other cultures aside from those following the Maker's faith.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Look at what happened in Kirkwall: every man, woman, and child of the Gallows was sentenced to death, for the actions of one, ex-Grey Warden mage who had never been a member of the Circle of Kirkwall.[/quote]A command Meredith wouldn't have given were she not under the influence of the lyrium idol. Much like magic, political authority always comes with the potential to cause great harm if wielded by corrupt individuals. This isn't something exclusive to the templars or the Chantry. It happened in the Tevinter Imperium, and it happened at Ostagard. The difference is that once confronted, mere politicians are notably easier to put down than a powerful mage, which is why we have the Circles.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Giving control over all mages to the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars already lead to a continential rebellion, and throughout the history of Thedas there have been rebellions for mage freedom, such as Aldenon's rebellion against the Order of Templars in Ferelden.[/quote]I'm not sure if Aldenon counts, given that he and his mages never belonged to the Circle in the first place. It's not surprising that there would be resentment amongst the mages of a country when they are are to be relocated to a Tower, but once confined things should be pretty stable. Where did you read there were many rebellions?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Isn't that an argument for law enforcement, rather than handing over the lives of mages to a religious order that views them with disdain? Particularly when numerous Andrastian refer to mages being "cursed"?[/quote]Do you really believe that the mages that wish for freedom now would feel any different, were they watched by secular guards instead of templars? Given that the Circles would still have to use the Harrowing and Tranquility and confine the mages to a Tower to keep them under supervision?

Also, the Chant of Light and the current Divine have actually called magic a "gift", but this just as a sidenote. I'm not surprised that mages are seen by many as cursed, given that they are pretty much walking timebombs - as David Gaider said.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Quentin is implied to be from the Circle of Starkhaven (based on Gascard's note), and Orsino was from the Circle of Kirkwall. How are they examples of how necessary the Chantry controlled Circles are?[/quote]It goes to show how dangerous mages are.
Quentin became crazy because his wife died - apart from showing the risks of allowing mages this sort of attachment,  do you think this would be different were he not raised in a Tower? And Orsino knew of him, helped him, and didn't say anything. In fact, he even kept his research to study for himself!

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
In fact, neither character is even stopped by the templars; Meredith dismisses the reports about a serial killer, and Orsino's turn into an abomnation is halted by Hawke and his (or her) moiety crew.[/quote]I'm sure Meredith would have become active once knowing said killer is a mage, but as it stands the templars are not supposed to play city guard.
Also, Hawke is actually fighting the Harvester together with Meredith and her templars. It stands to reason she'd have done so if Hawke wouldn't have been there, too.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Arguments have been made about how effective the Harrowing is when the mages are basically thrown into the Fade with little insight about what they are supposed to do.[/quote]But they are prepared for the Harrowing in the course of their standard training, as it makes them feel safer wielding their magic and trusting their own abilities. The problem is that there's only so much you can do and that mages will always be vulnerable for demonic possession. The Harrowing is nothing but a "final exam", a trial by fire that shows the mage doesn't need to be watched as closely anymore.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Apostate Hawke, Warden Bethany, and Merrill are simply three apostates who are examples of mages who don't become abominations, without going through the Harrowing.[/quote]Merrill had elven Keeper training, Hawke has the player bonus and Bethany got lucky? If every mage would turn into an abomination the minute he is born, there wouldn't be any mages left in the world. This does not mean there's no risk, though.

The Harrowing does not increase a mages' defense against demonic possession. It is not a requirement to protect against it. But it is proof the mage is strong enough to resist.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If Bethany is brought to the Gallows by Cullen, it's noted that she's immediately given her Harrowing, with no instruction on what she's supposed to do when she enters the Fade.[/quote]Why would she need instructions? As an older mage who was able to resist all the years before, it seems to me as if this was a mere formality. I'm not even sure if actual instructions on how to act wouldn't be counter-productive to its goals - when a demon tries to possess a mage, it rarely happens in a controlled environment.
Not to mention that it is very likely that each mages' Harrowing is different, all depending on the mage and the demon in question. It is, after all, the Fade we're talking about here. Dreams are very personal.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Since it doesn't protect the mage against future possession (as we see from Abomination Uldred in Origins), there are arguments as to whether it's necessary or not.[/quote]It depends on what kind of necessity you are referring to. An unharrowed mage can be fine and safe from possession his entire life. But nobody, not even the mage himself, actually knows. He could literally turn into an Abomination any minute, without a trained templar in place to prevent civilian casualties.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Those references are made in addressing that blood magic isn't inherently evil, because it's a method of magic,  and its uses are entirely dependent on the mage using it.[/quote]A way of thinking I usually counter with the same being true for nuclear weapons. You just don't want any random guy having access to them, and the world might be a better place without them.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Wouldn't that mean that the Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivain, and the Dalish should be exactly like Tevinter, then?[/quote]No, because - as I previously mentioned - these cultures follow an entirely different lifestyle that doesn't seem to put as much emphasis on personal gain as the "modern" human civilizations do. The one human nation that is as advanced as Orlais and Ferelden (etc) is Tevinter, and we can see it is returning to its dangerous roots already.

I guess it's all a matter of personal focus. An Avvar Shaman or a Dalish Keeper concerned solely with the wellbeing of their tribe simply has different priorities than a free Tevinter mage who is convinced his gifts elevate him above his peers and that he deserves a big palace with lots of slaves. In essence, it's very similar to nobility by blood - a feeling of entitlement. Just with a number of dangerous side effects.

In nations such as Ferelden, Orlais, Tevinter, the Free Marches, even Orzammar, one's station and respect is determined by his wealth, and in true capitalist manner everyone is driven to increase it, at times with unsavory means if they can get away with it. Just where a merchant is going to cheat you with his weights, a mage can dominate your mind to get anything he wants. Remember Idunna?

In fact, Idunna's article throws up an interesting question: How much of the templar corruption we get to see in Kirkwall is Tarohne's doing? Wasn't Ser Alrik rather pale as well, much like the possessed Wilmod?
No, I'm not seriously entertaining this thought due to lack of evidence, but it is a rather interesting possibility.

--

[quote]Koire wrote...
Yep, and this is exactly the reason why Evangeline left the templars - there is no place for such people in the Order in its current state.[/quote]Well, I'd disagree on that. There's a reason why she got as far as 2nd in command of the Templar HQ, after all.
I think her issues are more with the Lord Seeker. But I haven't yet finished the book, so I can only judge her character so far as someone with years of service under her templar belt. If nothing else, this goes to show that she was working just fine in the system before it came under pressure due to the current crisis.

[quote]Koire wrote...
Wow) It's really ironic that a templar supporter is using something I've recently added to the wiki myself to prove a point [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie] I'm Asherinka on the wiki)
The exact line is: "Starkhaven was never like this. The templars beat us and no one says a thing".[/quote]Thumbs up for anyone adding accurate information to a wiki! As someone basically soaking up every detail of the setting,
I really appreciate people taking the time to provide such sources.

Still, it adds to the idea that Kirkwall was the big exception (due to multiple factors even) and it shouldn't be pulled as a prime example for everything - just as a warning showing what can go wrong, outlining a couple flaws that should have been dealt with. In this instance, there are multiple safeguards that have all failed: the local Chantry hierarchy (which should have intervened), the Seekers (who should have investigated), some of Orsino's mages (who should have been more forthcoming), some of Meredith's templars (who ignored internal corruption) ...

All this on top of Kirkwall being a place where the Veil is weaker and where blood magic has always occured far more frequently than elsewhere, putting additional pressure on mages and templars alike. And then comes Anders/Justice. And the lyrium idol.
I daresay that this situation would not have been possible anywhere else. The combination of factors is incredibly unlikely - but it happened. Using this to deduce a general flaw in the system and stating it cannot work at all ... let's just say this is a very controversial point, as evidenced by all the discussion going on.

Modifié par Lynata, 20 mars 2012 - 10:37 .

[Lynata]

< double-post >

Modifié par Lynata, 20 mars 2012 - 10:16 .

[Koire]

Lynata wrote...
At least the Circles have kept Thedas relatively safe for many centuries, and this time the normal people have the advantage of the templars' unique abilities in countering arcane spells.

Mages are normal people. That's the whole point 

with the added problem that any lord or king would feel tempted to use this army of mages against other nobles or neighboring countries in the usual political powergames

According to Wynne in Asunder, they already do: she discusses the "benefits" of a civil war in Orlais - mages will be needed and as a result will gain a better bargaining position.

Anders' suggested alternative to the Chantry Circles is to copy the current Tevinter Imperium (-> dialogue from DA:O), but this only shows how egocentric his worldview actually is.

Or was - before the merge with Justice. His party banters with Fenris show that in DA2 he doesn't think Tevinter is a good idea.

Actually, this is not quite what the Chantry teaches. And mages are feared because of the very real dangers they represent - a fear that is not at all connected to any religion, and which does show up in other cultures aside from those following the Maker's faith.

I don't think so. Some examples:
*DAO: When the Warden first meets Keili praying to the Maker in the Magi Origins, "She believes that magic is a curse, and fears herself for it." © wiki
*Asunder, Chapter 1: "He was being brought to a dungeon, a black pit from which he was never going to emerge, for his crime of being a mage. The templars called him that word in curt, ugly tones when they needed to call him anything. Mage. Before that day it wasn't a word Cole had associated with himself. It was something he'd only heard on the tongues of priests, a watchword for those who had been cursed by the Maker. And now that's what he was. Cursed."
*Asunder, Chapter 7: A common man speaking about the mages: "But it was you and your stinking magic that done it! If Her Holiness had a right mind, she'd tell everyone to string you up! Burn your curse out of this world once and for all!"
*Asunder, Chapter 12: Cole's father speaking about Cole's magical abilities: "You've evil in you, boy, passed down by your mother."
*Anders' short story: "I was no more than twelve when they came for me. My mother wept when they fixed the chains to my wrists, but my father was glad to see me gone. He had been afraid, ever since the fire in the barn. Not just afraid of what I could do, but afraid of me, afraid my magic was punishment for whatever petty sins he imagined the Maker sat in judgment upon."
*Anders in DA2: "If you're born with magic, they hear about it. They search your little rat-spit village and find you. They tell your parents that they'll be thrown in prison if they ever ask about you... stripped of their rights in the eyes of the Maker."
*Knight-Commander Greagoir in DAO: "Your magic is a gift, but it's also a curse, for demons of the dream realm - the Fade - are drawn to you, and seek to use you as a gateway into this world."

On the other hand, we have this:
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

While the Maker initially granted magic as a gift (or so they say), the current interpretation of the Chant seems to be: "mages are cursed."

Modifié par Koire, 20 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[dragonflight288]

I don't think so. Some examples:
*DAO: When the Warden first meets Keili praying to the Maker in the Magi Origins, "She believes that magic is a curse, and fears herself for it." ©
*Asunder, Chapter 1: "He was being brought to a dungeon, a black pit from which he was never going to emerge, for his crime of being a mage. The templars called him that word in curt, ugly tones when they needed to call him anything. Mage. Before that day it wasn't a word Cole had associated with himself. It was something he'd only heard on the tongues of priests, a watchword for those who had been cursed by the Maker. And now that's what he was. Cursed."
*Asunder, Chapter 7: A common man speaking about the mages: "But it was you and your stinking magic that done it! If Her Holiness had a right mind, she'd tell everyone to string you up! Burn your curse out of this world once and for all!"
*Asunder, Chapter 12: Cole's father speaking about Cole's magical abilities: "You've evil in you, boy, passed down by your mother."
*Anders' short story: "I was no more than twelve when they came for me. My mother wept when they fixed the chains to my wrists, but my father was glad to see me gone. He had been afraid, ever since the fire in the barn. Not just afraid of what I could do, but afraid of me, afraid my magic was punishment for whatever petty sins he imagined the Maker sat in judgment upon."
*Anders in DA2: "If you're born with magic, they hear about it. They search your little rat-spit village and find you. They tell your parents that they'll be thrown in prison if they ever ask about you... stripped of their rights in the eyes of the Maker."

On the other hand, we have this:
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

While the Maker initially granted magic as a gift (or so they say), the current interpretation of the Chant seems to be: "mages are cursed."

All this seems to point to proof positive that the templars and the Chantry as a whole, have their own interpretation of the Chant of Light, and refuse to look at what was actually said.

[Wulfram]

There's an issue of causation here.

Does the Andrastean religion cause people to hate and fear mages, or is it that people's hate and fear of mages is reflected in the Andrastean religion?

I guess it's something of a self perpetuating cycle nowadays, but I'd say the hatred and fear of mages came first.

[Koire]

dragonflight288 wrote...
All this seems to point to proof positive that the templars and the Chantry as a whole, have their own interpretation of the Chant of Light, and refuse to look at what was actually said.

Yep, exactly. That was my point.
On a side note, all religions have problems with identifying what was actually said. It is in the nature of any complex text - to have multiple meanings, if not outright contradictions. Imho.

Wulfram wrote...
There's an issue of causation here.
Does the Andrastean religion cause people to hate and fear mages, or is it that people's hate and fear of mages is reflected in the Andrastean religion?
I guess it's something of a self perpetuating cycle nowadays, but I'd say the hatred and fear of mages came first.

We'll never know. One more quote from Asunder:
"His eyes fell upon a little girl hiding in the bushes not ten feet away. She couldn't have been more than eight years old, staring at the two of them with eyes as big as saucers. Staring at their staves, rather. Wasn't it odd how children could be so fascinated by magic? It took them time and the lessons of the Chantry to learn real fear."

Modifié par Koire, 20 mars 2012 - 11:30 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Right. So when something does a deed which you deem good, it is a question of morality. But when someone does something you deem bad, it is a question of faith. Instead of just, I don't know a different morality? Granted Faith may bring about a set of morals, but since both templars in question were followers of the same Faith, from the same city, from the same Chantry, their faith had little influence on the matter, but their personality more so.. Mettin were simply more unforgivng than Agatha. Not more faithful.

It has nothing to do with whether I deem an act good, but whether the act takes into account the entire situation at hand.

The entire situation that we are presented with is this:

1) Mages that were hiding out were killed.
2) Their family and friends surrendered.
3) Ser Agatha wants them to live, though still be punished I assume.
4) Ser Mettin just wants to kill them all, and will kill anyone that disagrees with him or is neutral in the debate, be they fellow Templar or helpful citizens.
5) And as far as I know, Ser Agatha doesn't try to kill Hawke and Mettin if the former sides with the latter. Unfortunately, The Last Holdouts is a quest that isn't on Youtube that much. The ones that are have the player siding against Mettin and not with him.

I know she has to be killed if you side with her, but I don't know if she instigated the fighting or if that was Mettin again. Nor am I trying to say it was definitely Mettin, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

At any rate, Mettin's act is a clear sign of his zealotry. Overzealous is defined as excessive enthusiasm and intense devotion to a cause or idea.

He is devoted far too much to his idea that the mages' family should be executed, even willing to kill his fellow Templars to perform such an act.

Morality and zealotry are too often opposed to one another. You may find exceptions where a man with fervent belief in a religion does not let it compromise his moral integrity, but that's rare.

Mettin's faith kept him and others from doing their job properly, while Agatha's faith allowed her to do her job properly.

EmperorSahlertz wrote..
Hawke goes through the damn foundry and doesn't find the trapdoor either. Because it is concealed, and likely by magic. Which also explains why no one else finds it. Hawke even comments on the trapdoor in act 2, stating it wasn't there last time they were in the foundry.

Really? "A wizard did it"? You're going to use that as your reasoning?

I mean sure Quentin's a mage and Hawke says what you said he said, but you're using that quote I listed to justify a plot hole and Hawke's ineptitude. Hawke didn't really move barrels around, so him commenting on it "not being there before" is kinda weak.

Had he moved things around in an attempt to find the man, I'd be inclined to believe that magic was the reason behind it being concealed. But because Hawke doesn't search around the foundry that much, it seems like a very weak way to justify it.

And Meredith had just recently acquired the idol in act 2, and had not even gotten it forged into a blade yet, so she wasn't influenced by it yet.

The idol immediately affected Bartrand and when it was broken, immediately affected Varric. He even says that he wasn't acting like himself back there and he's glad Hawke told him to get rid of it.
 

Or at least, it is pure speculation that she was at this point. And no.... Again.... Not faith, nor insanity had anything at all to do with why the investigation was called off

It's not pure speculation. The facts dictate that touching the idol is dangerous -- more so when it's broken, as you immediately fall under its powers.

. It were simply because that during the three years Emeric had been doing his investigation he had achieved a whole lot of nothing. There simply were absolutely no proof to confirm his suspecion that every random (though proven not so random) murder in Kirkwall in the past few years were connected. Furtehrmore he ended up embarrasing the Templar Order, which simply sealed the deal. His investigation, because of its fruitlesness, had now become a liability. So it was ended. It was simply pure and simple protocol, and even logic that ended his investigation.

I'm sorry, but there was a lot of information already. Not only did Gascard know two of the murdered women, he inquired about the others.

Does that seem at all like something that can just be chalked up as fruitless? A reclusive nobleman that knew two missing women and made inquiries about the others -- when it's not even his jurisdiction nor does it involve him -- is in fact something to go on. That makes him a suspect. People who consistently make inquiries into missing women -- into crimes themselves -- are generally involved. Mainly because they want to keep tabs on the investigation.

If someone's suspected of a crime and the authorities decide to stake out the person in question for a day, and he doesn't do anything to confirm their suspicions then that doesn't automatically mean he's innocent. That means that on that day, he didn't do anything.

But you don't just give up as a result.

The authorities must be willing to accept embarassment on themselves from time to time if it means justice will be had, but they can't halt justice at the expense of reputation. Saving face with nobilities and the rich is not how to perform an investigation, if it means the investigation is halted.

I've seen often times in my old city of Wilmington how cops -- back when those cops did their jobs -- would often apologize to people for embarassing them when they were suspected of a crime. But they continued their investigation.

Besides, doesn't murder generally = an investigation anyway in a society with laws? It does. Especially those that are proclaimed to be upheld by a certain fiery-haired maiden. If the murders weren't going to be investigated in relation to Emeric's beliefs, they should've been investigated separately as their own crimes.

But they weren't. Aveline is quick to say upon Emeric's death that her own people will now look into the crimes.

Plus, all of the women abducted were healthy and had very few social ties. Do you think it mere coincidence that only those types of women seem to go missing?

Additionally, Emeric had received no support at all from the Templars during his investigation. They weren't even bothering to investigate Maren! A mage of the Circle went missing and they just said "Eh, let the City Guard handle it". I'm sorry,

Yea, real good job there. Both the Templars and the City Guard aren't doing their jobs, the former due to the exacerbated zealotry inherent in Meredith after acquiring the idol.

And the latter, well Gascard says that part of the reason he didn't report what he knows to the City Guard is because they might not even give him the time of day. Even if his story was partly a crock, if he believes he couldn't even trick the Guard to investigate using that crock because they won't listen to him then that says something about the Gua

The codex says that so far, there have been no signs of the collective doing anything illegal. Yet many of the quests we do for them, obviously show that is not the case.

No, the codex shows that so far they haven't practiced magic that goes against the Maker's mandate. While blood magic is illegal, it's not the only thing that's illegal. You're twisting blood magic -- actually, non-chantry approved magic since apostates can be labeled maleficarum even if they're not practicing blood magic but some other type -- to mean "anything illegal".

What they're doing is safeguarding those mages that don't practice blood magic but are accused of doing so anyway.

Funnily enough, Entropic magic deals with mental manipulation yet is sanctioned by the Chantry. But some of what it does -- namely screwing with a person's mind -- is illegal for blood magic. It's not a stretch to assume that what the accusations were based off of were dealing with the Entropic Magic being performed.

The wiki page on maleficarum states that people are quick to label a mage practicing unfamiliar arts as maleficarum, born out of simple fear, prejudice, and ignorance. So I would hardly say that because a person is accused of being a maleficar, they are one.

Fact: Maleficarum were operating near the Mage that asked that the false allegations be taken care of.

Fact: The group said the maleficar they spotted was in the Brecilian Forest

Fact: The Brecilian Forest is the target of a quest dealing with maleficarum operating near said mage.



Fact: the quest that deals with warning mage relatives says that the Templars often make mistakes -- meaning that this quest they're on is in fact a mistake, which says that the person is sure the accused mages aren't maleficarum -- and he wants the relatives to be evacuated before the Chantry and Templars can threaten them. Even if the Chantry and Templars control when they use force, they will threaten the families.

Not even integrating into society seems their priority. If you want to integrate into society why do you make your "lair" in the middle of a damn cursed forrest?

Isolationism. There's nothing wrong with that. Not all of their members refuse to associate with society. You have 3 mage apprentices -- free from the Chantry's grip and a part of the Collective -- in both Denerim and outside Orzammar.

You have the Collective representatives themselves, who have a base in every major settlement. Which means they deal with society.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

No the codex doesn't say that. it says that there have been no signs of them doing so, as of the writing of that entry. The quests we do for them, shows otherwise.

the quests we do show that they're being accused of it. Not that they actually do it. Show me proof of a mage within the collective performing blood magic. Not an allegation. But proof.

Yeah... One of thode apprentices turned into an abomination which killed his master, and the Warden was only lucky that he happened across this abomination by mere chance, or else it would probably have kileld again. So yes. Even then, they are a danger.

That apprentice turned into an abomination because he delved into forbidden arts -- it doesn't say whether it was deliberate or merely accidental like "More power? Sure!". Simply that the apprentice got mixed up in it -- and the teacher wouldn't tolerate it. He was going to kill his apprentice.

He just got snuffed himself.

there will always be bad eggs. But the good eggs shouldn't be punished as a result. This quest is actually proof that the Collective doesn't tolerate blood mages in their group. At all. Be they apprentice or regular mage, they will not be tolerated.

They are still doing the Templars' work and the reason why there hasn't been a sign of mages using blood magic is because they don't allow them to.

Koire wrote...

I think I have proof for you:
Act 2, Alain in the Gallows (only if you sent Grace to the Circle in Act 1): "I-I think the knight-commander’s crazy. They say she hears voices."

Can I give you a hug? I think I'm going to give you a hug. Can I?

[TEWR]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

And still there is a big difference between fervor/zeal and blind fanaticism. Although closely related, one is much more aggressive than the other and a step above. An important thing to keep in mind for the discussion, especially given that few of the templars we see across all games strike us as "religious nutjobs" in a constant state of blind rage against anything going against their faith.[/quote]

Given that we've heard tales of how the Templars call mages cursed and act with glee if they can kill them, I'd say it is blind fanaticism.




[quote]
Here's the actual Codex quote for comparison, by the way:

While mages often resent the templars as symbols of the Chantry's control over magic, the people of Thedas see them as saviors and holy warriors, champions of all that is good, armed with piety enough to protect the world from the ravages of foul magic. In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices.

Nowhere does it highlight extreme fanatism (as opposed to "normal" steadfast faith as expected from any Chantry member and in fact shared by many mages as well) - and whilst a flawless moral center is only a secondary concern, it apparently is a concern nonetheless. [/quote]

Faith isn't something that you can just ascribe to being "We believe in the Maker, heart and soul, body and mind, forever we shall serve!".

Faith is where you believe, but you do not let that faith dominate your thoughts and actions. If the Templars want to believe magic is dangerous that's fine. It is. But to say that magic is a curse. That is wrong. That says that mages are cursed, which is psychologically damaging. You don't tell a child that he's a freak. You don't tell anyone that! It scars them! It's the same thing here!

Faith is believing in something without the proof to back it up. Faith is -- in some minds -- believing and trusting in something because you see it as true, even if it might not be.

That last point is key. The Templars -- and by extension, the Chantry -- don't just believe in the dogma they were taught. They assert it as cold hard facts, not accepting any other interpretation. Their faith stops being faith when they assert it as truth. And they become fanatical zealots in the process.

I think it says something that the Village of Haven -- comprised of a bunch of malicious psychopathic dragon worshippers -- placed mages in charge. And had them free. They followed the traditions of their ancestors, dating back to the original Disciples of Andraste. I think it's especially telling that a statue of Andraste -- actually, many statues -- have fire emanating from her bare hands.

Certain people may say "But that's the Maker's power!". Well, the Maker's power seems to be magic. What was the codex entry on the war? That the Maker used infernos and drought, tempests and blizzards, earthquake and famine?

Yea, that sounds an awful lot like magic.


[quote]Ah, so because of a few templars abusing their power, the requirement of "absolute loyalty" doesn't count? But on the other hand one or two mad templars mean the entire Order is a bunch of incompetent fanatics - because it says so in the Codex?[/quote]

What use is absolute loyalty when the Templars that abuse their power get away with their crimes? When no investigation is called into what they do?

You tell me if a mage would be readily believed were he to accuse a Templar of raping him/her. Tell me, would the Templars believe that? Would the Chantry believe that, when so many people within the Order see magic as not only a curse, but see the mages that wield such a thing as evil and view them with scorn?

Absolute loyalty matters little in a system where the abusers of the weak will never be brought to justice for crimes they commit. Because they don't need loyalty. They're guaranteed a constant place within the Order.

The moment I'm told of a Templar that was cast from the Order for abusing his power over mages, I'll recant my statement. But I have seen none brought to justice, save by way of the armaments wielded by the players.

I've seen members of the Order thrown out for helping the mages. But for abusing them, I haven't seen a thing. And as such I'm led to believe that only the former happens while the latter never happens.


[quote]
I for one do believe that isolated cases should be treated as such. And for what it's worth, there seem to be much more evil blood mages than corrupt templars around... [/quote]

So you say isolated cases should be seen as such, yet all of the bad blood mages cast a bad light upon the rest?

Okay, sure. That seems contradictory, but whatever. It's also wrong, since we see more Templars then mages.

And for what it's worth, how many blood mages do we see performing evil acts in both games? And they have to be using their blood magic for something definitely evil, as well as using blood magic to accomplish their goals. Or be from Tevinter, but the latter shouldn't count towards White Chantry mages these days.

And Jowan doesn't count, because not only is he a good blood mage but what he did to Eamon could've been done by anyone else.

And Abominations can't count either, since they're not mages anymore. Unless what the mage did prior to becoming possessed was something definitely evil.

1) the Maleficarum in the Brecilian Forest.
2) Caladrius, but he's from Tevinter so he can't count towards the mages in White Chantry Thedas.
3) Decimus, his actions born from plot stupidity
4) Grace, the same as Decimus.
5) Quentin, but he was certifiably insane and more then likely on the brink of insanity prior to his wife's death. Her death merely sent him over the edge.
6) Arguably Gascard, but he can be made to be a good person.
7) the Bloodragers. But they only have one -- maybe two -- blood mages in each confrontation with them.
8) Fell Ordon
9) That dude that sold Feynriel. But he's also from Tevinter I think.
10) Veras -- from Tevinter as well
11) Sanitor, from Tevinter as well.
12) the Baroness.

Compare this with how many good mages we have:

1) Jowan
2) The Warden
3) Hawke
4) Merrill
5) Arguably Anders
6) Alain
7) Lanaya
8) Zathrian arguably
9) Irving
10) Wynne
11) Kelli -- even if she's psychologically damaged possibly beyond repair
12) Petra
13) Kinnon
14) Random blood mage that wanted freedom for the Circle, promised to be given if the Circle allied with Loghain
15) Morrigan
16) Velanna
17) Finn
18) Bethany
19) Orsino. I refuse to accept what he did at the end as canon.
20) As said above, arguably Gascard.
21) Feynriel
22) Tobrius -- who states that the Templars were different when Maarevar Carver was alive.
23) Every mage that defended themselves from an unjust Annulment

Now let's see how many good Templars we have. And I'll even add which one are alive:

1) Keran -- can be killed. Can remain alive
2) Thrask -- killed by plot stupidity, and he said that prior to Meredith the Circle was more mage-friendly
3) Ser Maarevar Carver -- dead.
4) Ser Otto (DAO) -- dead
5) Ser Emeric -- dead
6) Arguably Cullen -- alive
7) Arguably Carver -- alive
8) Ser Bardel -- dead
9) every Templar in Thrask's rebellion against Meredith and her like-minded cronies -- dead
10) Gregoir -- status unknown. Last known to be alive
11) Hadley -- alive last we heard of him
12) Arguably Knight-Commander Harrith -- alive, last we saw of him
13) Ser Maron -- alive, last time we saw him
14) Ser Bryant -- alive, last time we saw him.
15) Ser Friden -- dead.
16) Ser Agatha -- possibly dead. possibly alive

Much of those Templars are not known to be either alive or dead. As such, they can't definitively be used on the status of the conditions of the Order when the Mage-Templar War broke out. 

Whereas we have many, many Templars that were good men and died. Some the result of doing their job when no one would aid them. Others the result of plot stupidity. But nonetheless dead.

What does this say when the Templars that do their job are killed or dead, while the ones that abuse their power and don't do their job stay alive? That the Order has long been broken, and nothing short of a grand scale rebellion will change that.

Now let's look at the evil, corrupt, or incompetent Templars:

1) Ser Alrik
2) Ser Kerras
3) The Templar lieutenant and her cronies
4) the Templar that wanted Feynriel, not caring how many elves she tortured and burned in the process to get results. And her cronies.
5) Meredith
6) Ser Friden's superior
7) every Templar that performed the Right of Annulment on Kirkwall's Circle. The man that committed the act was not only an apostate -- and shouldn't condemn the Circle for it -- but willingly submitted to justice. Yet they just decided to kill all the mages.
8) the Templars that were going to be glad if they got to kill a mage -- as Cullen says in the mage origin
9) Ser Rylock.
10) Ser Rylock's cronies
11) Lord Seeker Lambert
12) Ser Mettin.

There are more, but I can't think of them due to being extremely exhausted. I'm going to bed soon.





[quote]Soulless and sadistic? Where in the Codex have you spotted that line?[/quote]

I've seen it in-game. Alrik, Kerras, the woman that wants to kill Hawke for Kerras' death, the woman that tortured  an innocent Dalish child for answers on Feynriel's whereabouts, saying she doesn't care about the Elves -- her real term was the perjorative one of "Knife-ears".

[quote]
On the contrary: The Chant of Light and the current Divine herself preach compassion and virtue, including mercy for mages. "Religious fervor" would henceforth dictate a strong belief in and strict adherence to these virtues.[/quote]

The current Divine was to be assassinated and replaced with someone whose views were more malleable to the Templars' whims.

What she preached was not followed.


[quote]
From the Canticle of Transfigurations:

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.

--> Don't slap the mages, lest the Maker gets angry.[/quote]

I read it as "ham" at first. That woman's version of the Chant has been embedded into my memory, and it always makes me laugh .

And yes, that's a correct interpretation more or less, though it obviously doesn't just apply to the mages. But the Templars don't follow it.


[quote]
Those who bear false witness
And work to deceive others, know this:
There is but one Truth.
All things are known to our Maker
And He shall judge their lies.

--> Don't cover up crimes committed by your fellow man, lest the Maker gets angry.[/quote]

Unfortunately, many crimes are covered up by the Templars.






[quote]]*If* that was actually referring to rape - the fact that Alain believes Karras would want to silence him pretty much indicates he'd be in danger if word would get out, no?[/quote]

If? Seriously?

"Kerras said he'd make me Tranquil if I told anyone about him coming into my room at night".

Yea, if. Whoo, there's some mighty denial in the room.


[quote]
A number of players also seem to have gotten that dialogue after Karras was already dead, suspecting that Alain is in fact experiencing demonic corruption whilst being in the Fade at night. *shrug*[/quote]

I believe that's a bug of the game and shouldn't be taken as what actually happens.


[quote]
On an interesting sidenote, this I found on Alain's wiki page:
If Hawke subsequently talks to Alain in the Gallows courtyard, he tells that the Starkhaven Circle was never like this. The templars beat the mages and no one says a thing. They won't let him send mail out, and he found a letter to his parents that they burned in the furnace[/quote]

Alain's actual comment was that the Kirkwall Circle is much worse then Starkhaven ever was. He never said the Starkhaven Circle was pleasant. He said that Kirkwall's Circle is worse.





[quote]I don't see any indication for Mettin being higher in rank than Agatha. Especially given that Agatha has several templar supporters aiding her in combat, too.[/quote]

That a few Templars shared her beliefs is irrelevant to who was in charge. Agatha routinely deferred to Mettin IIRC. Mettin was the one that sent the letter to Hawke.

Mettin is in command of Agatha.




[quote]And yet they don't. At least in my playthrough Karras simply took them into custody.[/quote]

Only if they surrender and Thrask is there to advocate that they should be taken into custody. If Thrask wasn't there, Kerras would've killed them. Kerras says that Thrask is "too soft on the robes" and implicitly threatens Thrask's life.


Now, I'm getting some sleep.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 mars 2012 - 09:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote..
Hawke goes through the damn foundry and doesn't find the trapdoor either. Because it is concealed, and likely by magic. Which also explains why no one else finds it. Hawke even comments on the trapdoor in act 2, stating it wasn't there last time they were in the foundry.[/quote]

Really? "A wizard did it"? You're going to use that as your reasoning?

I mean sure Quentin's a mage and Hawke says what you said he said, but you're using that quote I listed to justify a plot hole and Hawke's ineptitude. Hawke didn't really move barrels around, so him commenting on it "not being there before" is kinda weak.

Had he moved things around in an attempt to find the man, I'd be inclined to believe that magic was the reason behind it being concealed. But because Hawke doesn't search around the foundry that much, it seems like a very weak way to justify it.
[/quote] 
Why can't a mage conceal his entrance with magic? Just because you don't like that explanation? There were no barrels on the spot of where the trapdoor appears three years later, so moving around stuff to find a man (which would be completely idiotic, since you don't even know you are looking for a trap door at the time), wouldn't have changed anything. There is no plothole, there is no ineptitude. There is just you, and your unwillingness to accept that Quintin's magic just proved too strong.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
And Meredith had just recently acquired the idol in act 2, and had not even gotten it forged into a blade yet, so she wasn't influenced by it yet.[/quote]

The idol immediately affected Bartrand and when it was broken, immediately affected Varric. He even says that he wasn't acting like himself back there and he's glad Hawke told him to get rid of it.
[/quote] 
 Hawke touches it, and isn't affected at all. Sure Hawke is the protagonist, but you can still show its affect on the protagonist without having him devovling to a raving lunatic. Yet nothing. So obviously the idol has different effects on different persons.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
Or at least, it is pure speculation that she was at this point. And no.... Again.... Not faith, nor insanity had anything at all to do with why the investigation was called off[/quote]

It's not pure speculation. The facts dictate that touching the idol is dangerous -- more so when it's broken, as you immediately fall under its powers.
[/quote] 
It is pure speculation. You have absolutely no verification of wether or not Meredith was under influence of the idol at the time of act 2. You have previous cases of the idol's function on persons, and the presumption that Meredith would suffer the same. First of all, you don't even have proof that Meredith even had direct contact with the idol at the time, nor that she has been in contact with the broken idol yet. There is nothing, but speculation.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
. It were simply because that during the three years Emeric had been doing his investigation he had achieved a whole lot of nothing. There simply were absolutely no proof to confirm his suspecion that every random (though proven not so random) murder in Kirkwall in the past few years were connected. Furtehrmore he ended up embarrasing the Templar Order, which simply sealed the deal. His investigation, because of its fruitlesness, had now become a liability. So it was ended. It was simply pure and simple protocol, and even logic that ended his investigation.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but there was a lot of information already. Not only did Gascard know two of the murdered women, he inquired about the others.

Does that seem at all like something that can just be chalked up as fruitless? A reclusive nobleman that knew two missing women and made inquiries about the others -- when it's not even his jurisdiction nor does it involve him -- is in fact something to go on. That makes him a suspect. People who consistently make inquiries into missing women -- into crimes themselves -- are generally involved. Mainly because they want to keep tabs on the investigation.

If someone's suspected of a crime and the authorities decide to stake out the person in question for a day, and he doesn't do anything to confirm their suspicions then that doesn't automatically mean he's innocent. That means that on that day, he didn't do anything.

But you don't just give up as a result.

The authorities must be willing to accept embarassment on themselves from time to time if it means justice will be had, but they can't halt justice at the expense of reputation. Saving face with nobilities and the rich is not how to perform an investigation, if it means the investigation is halted.

I've seen often times in my old city of Wilmington how cops -- back when those cops did their jobs -- would often apologize to people for embarassing them when they were suspected of a crime. But they continued their investigation.

Besides, doesn't murder generally = an investigation anyway in a society with laws? It does. Especially those that are proclaimed to be upheld by a certain fiery-haired maiden. If the murders weren't going to be investigated in relation to Emeric's beliefs, they should've been investigated separately as their own crimes.

But they weren't. Aveline is quick to say upon Emeric's death that her own people will now look into the crimes.

Plus, all of the women abducted were healthy and had very few social ties. Do you think it mere coincidence that only those types of women seem to go missing?

Additionally, Emeric had received no support at all from the Templars during his investigation. They weren't even bothering to investigate Maren! A mage of the Circle went missing and they just said "Eh, let the City Guard handle it". I'm sorry,

Yea, real good job there. Both the Templars and the City Guard aren't doing their jobs, the former due to the exacerbated zealotry inherent in Meredith after acquiring the idol.

And the latter, well Gascard says that part of the reason he didn't report what he knows to the City Guard is because they might not even give him the time of day. Even if his story was partly a crock, if he believes he couldn't even trick the Guard to investigate using that crock because they won't listen to him then that says something about the Gua
[/quote] 
I can promise you, that if a cop were to investigate a senator under accusations of serial killings, and his investigation turned up absolutely nothing, at the very least the cop would be taken off the investigation, and most likely the investigation would be shut down.

You keep arguing that Emeric had his leads, but you refuse to acknowledge that those leads lead him nowhere. For all the leads he had, he got no results to show for it. So his investigations had all been a waste of time for the Templars.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]
The codex says that so far, there have been no signs of the collective doing anything illegal. Yet many of the quests we do for them, obviously show that is not the case.[/quote]

No, the codex shows that so far they haven't practiced magic that goes against the Maker's mandate. While blood magic is illegal, it's not the only thing that's illegal. You're twisting blood magic -- actually, non-chantry approved magic since apostates can be labeled maleficarum even if they're not practicing blood magic but some other type -- to mean "anything illegal".

What they're doing is safeguarding those mages that don't practice blood magic but are accused of doing so anyway.

Funnily enough, Entropic magic deals with mental manipulation yet is sanctioned by the Chantry. But some of what it does -- namely screwing with a person's mind -- is illegal for blood magic. It's not a stretch to assume that what the accusations were based off of were dealing with the Entropic Magic being performed.

The wiki page on maleficarum states that people are quick to label a mage practicing unfamiliar arts as maleficarum, born out of simple fear, prejudice, and ignorance. So I would hardly say that because a person is accused of being a maleficar, they are one.

Fact: Maleficarum were operating near the Mage that asked that the false allegations be taken care of.

Fact: The group said the maleficar they spotted was in the Brecilian Forest

Fact: The Brecilian Forest is the target of a quest dealing with maleficarum operating near said mage.



Fact: the quest that deals with warning mage relatives says that the Templars often make mistakes -- meaning that this quest they're on is in fact a mistake, which says that the person is sure the accused mages aren't maleficarum -- and he wants the relatives to be evacuated before the Chantry and Templars can threaten them. Even if the Chantry and Templars control when they use force, they will threaten the families.


[/quote] 
Maleficarum are not limited to blood mages. The coollective wants to be able to study magic without the scrutiny of the Templars. I have no reason at all, to assume that they won't eventually dwelve into forbidden arts.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]

Not even integrating into society seems their priority. If you want to integrate into society why do you make your "lair" in the middle of a damn cursed forrest?[/quote]

Isolationism. There's nothing wrong with that. Not all of their members refuse to associate with society. You have 3 mage apprentices -- free from the Chantry's grip and a part of the Collective -- in both Denerim and outside Orzammar.

You have the Collective representatives themselves, who have a base in every major settlement. Which means they deal with society.
[/quote] 
All those three apprentices were apparently incompetent and their apprenticeship is terminated by their master. So the collective just leave three untrained and incompetent mages out in the open. Great, and we are suppsoed to trust those why?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

No the codex doesn't say that. it says that there have been no signs of them doing so, as of the writing of that entry. The quests we do for them, shows otherwise.[/quote]

the quests we do show that they're being accused of it. Not that they actually do it. Show me proof of a mage within the collective performing blood magic. Not an allegation. But proof.
[/quote] 
"Places of Power" have you travel to different locations to help a collective mage conquer mortality. So far, the only kind of magic we know of to extend your lifespan is blood magic. And even if it isn't blood amgic he uses, it is certainly still Maleficarum arts. Also, they want the warden to attain the Scrolls of Banastor for them to study. Why would they want those scrolls if they weren't Blood Mages, or at least accepting of blood mages?


[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
[quote]Yeah... One of thode apprentices turned into an abomination which killed his master, and the Warden was only lucky that he happened across this abomination by mere chance, or else it would probably have kileld again. So yes. Even then, they are a danger.[/quote]That apprentice turned into an abomination because he delved into forbidden arts -- it doesn't say whether it was deliberate or merely accidental like "More power? Sure!". Simply that the apprentice got mixed up in it -- and the teacher wouldn't tolerate it. He was going to kill his apprentice.

He just got snuffed himself.

there will always be bad eggs. But the good eggs shouldn't be punished as a result. This quest is actually proof that the Collective doesn't tolerate blood mages in their group. At all. Be they apprentice or regular mage, they will not be tolerated.

They are still doing the Templars' work and the reason why there hasn't been a sign of mages using blood magic is because they don't allow them to.
[/quote] 
Those bad eggs proves the danger that even the good eggs pose, and must eventually confront. They are the proof of why there need to be official regulation of mages, instead of them self-policing, since that is obviously ineffective and worthless.
And it isn't proof at all about what the collective feels about blood magic and other Maleficarum arts. It is simply proof of what the Master in question feels about it. There are obvious examples in the other quests of the collective, as an organization, not having given it much thought.

[quote]Koire wrote...
I think I have proof for you:
Act 2, Alain in the Gallows (only if you sent Grace to the Circle in Act 1): "I-I think the knight-commander’s crazy. They say she hears voices."
[/quote]
That doesn't proove anything other than there are rumors about Meredith. Alain is no oracle of truth, and in a Circle as bad as the Gallows, tehre are bound to be rumors circulating about the Knight-Commander. So no, that is not any proof.

[LegendaryBlade]

I agree.

There's not much more for me to say here really. What Anders did was a terrible thing, and in my playthru it cost him his life for doing it. There were better ways to work towards a better life for mages than to magic-bomb a church; which didn't even accomplish the stated goal. It just drove the Mages and...everyone else, further apart.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why can't a mage conceal his entrance with magic? Just because you don't like that explanation? There were no barrels on the spot of where the trapdoor appears three years later, so moving around stuff to find a man (which would be completely idiotic, since you don't even know you are looking for a trap door at the time), wouldn't have changed anything. There is no plothole, there is no ineptitude. There is just you, and your unwillingness to accept that Quintin's magic just proved too strong.

It's not the explanation in and of itself that I dislike and say can't happen -- though I do find it to be cheap -- but rather how the explanation is being used to justify Hawke's pathetic attempt at a search.

As I said in the post you quoted, had Hawke actually deigned to do a search of the area and was still unable to find the trap door, I'd agree that the trap door was magically concealed. But because of him not really doing a search, saying "it wasn't here before" doesn't amount to much.

Especially considering if you take him out without going back there, he'll say the same thing years later.

Besides, we've had no real proof that mages can use magic known throughout the world today to conceal anything in the past, have we? I find it suspect to see it happening now, in a game that was rushed out the door, as a way to explain something like this.

The only exception we have is the Arlathan Elves, but their magic has been forgotten. Absolutely no one knows how to reproduce the magic used. Finn only has a theory -- based on scant research, though it does prove right -- on how to reveal what was hidden.

It is pure speculation. You have absolutely no verification of wether or not Meredith was under influence of the idol at the time of act 2. You have previous cases of the idol's function on persons, and the presumption that Meredith would suffer the same. First of all, you don't even have proof that Meredith even had direct contact with the idol at the time, nor that she has been in contact with the broken idol yet. There is nothing, but speculation.

As was pointed out, Meredith hears voices in Act II.

In act 3, we find out that Bartrand broke off a part of the idol before he sold it to Meredith.

In fact, I believe we have a few other sources of information that say much the same types of things in Act 2, how Meredith has been acting weird lately. But I'm not sure, so don't take my word on that.

Hawke touches it, and isn't affected at all. Sure Hawke is the protagonist, but you can still show its affect on the protagonist without having him devovling to a raving lunatic. Yet nothing. So obviously the idol has different effects on different persons.

Plot armor matters little in situations like this.

I can promise you, that if a cop were to investigate a senator under accusations of serial killings, and his investigation turned up absolutely nothing, at the very least the cop would be taken off the investigation, and most likely the investigation would be shut down.

You keep arguing that Emeric had his leads, but you refuse to acknowledge that those leads lead him nowhere. For all the leads he had, he got no results to show for it. So his investigations had all been a waste of time for the Templars.

I'm fairly certain that the only thing that happens is maybe a formal apology, but the investigation is neither halted nor is the man taken off of the case. The only times an investigator is taken off of a case is if he is either 1) connected to someone in the case in some way or 2) is being investigated himself, possibly as a result of being accused of a crime -- sometimes one that stems from the case itself.

Maleficarum are not limited to blood mages.

Actually, the term is supposed to only apply to those that use blood magic. That people erroneously choose to label mages that practice any unfamiliar arcane art means that it's wrongly applied in places.

And so it is made clear to me, as it should be to us all: That magic which fuels itself by harming others, by the letting of blood, is hated by the Maker.

Divine Justinia I said that maleficarum are those that use blood to fuel their magic, and only them.

The coollective wants to be able to study magic without the scrutiny of the Templars. I have no reason at all, to assume that they won't eventually dwelve into forbidden arts

Except for the fact that they take measures to ensure any maleficarum within their group are swiftly brought to justice.

Sure, some may delve into blood magic. But the Circle doesn't prevent this from happening either.

"Places of Power" have you travel to different locations to help a collective mage conquer mortality. So far, the only kind of magic we know of to extend your lifespan is blood magic. And even if it isn't blood amgic he uses, it is certainly still Maleficarum arts. Also, they want the warden to attain the Scrolls of Banastor for them to study. Why would they want those scrolls if they weren't Blood Mages, or at least accepting of blood mages?

Wrong. Maleficarum arts are only those arts that use blood magic. Society erroneously labels any unfamiliar magic as the work of a maleficar.

And it doesn't seem to be blood magic, since it's a glyph designed by a mage. If it was a glyphe made from blood, it might be seen as blood magic. But all this seems to be doing is drawing forth energy from these areas -- possibly because of a thin Veil? -- to allow the mage to live longer. At most, it's suspect. But it shouldn't be called blood magic.

In fact, he isn't doing it to extend his life. He never says that's why he's doing it. He says his power is waning, not that his life is growing weaker. He's doing it to enhance his power. 3 of those 4 areas have a thin Veil -- of varying degrees -- and the mage's power draws itself from the Fade. It seems like what he's doing is trying to be able to draw in the energy from all four areas to increase his power.



You can be suspicious of why he needs to do such a thing -- I wouldn't blame you of being suspicious of why he needs to increase his power -- but it has nothing to do with blood magic nor extending his life.

Those bad eggs proves the danger that even the good eggs pose, and must eventually confront. They are the proof of why there need to be official regulation of mages, instead of them self-policing, since that is obviously ineffective and worthless.
And it isn't proof at all about what the collective feels about blood magic and other Maleficarum arts. It is simply proof of what the Master in question feels about it. There are obvious examples in the other quests of the collective, as an organization, not having given it much thought.

See above.

That doesn't proove anything other than there are rumors about Meredith. Alain is no oracle of truth, and in a Circle as bad as the Gallows, tehre are bound to be rumors circulating about the Knight-Commander. So no, that is not any proof.

That seems like you're being willfully ignorant. Apparently, Meredith hearing voices -- when both Bartrand and Meredith actually do hear voices and converse with them, making it seem as though they're talking to themselves -- and having acquired a broken idol is just a coincidence.

Yea. Sure. Just a coincidence.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the majority of people on the pro-mage side argue in favor of proper instruction for mages, without having a religious institution that seems to preach a message about mages that some of us view as anti-mage.[/quote]

Ah! But is this really the issue? Ultimately, a secular institution would have to employ much the same means - with the added problem that any lord or king would feel tempted to use this army of mages against other nobles or neighboring countries in the usual political powergames instead of limiting their offensive use to Exalted Marches and fighting the Darkspawn, as the international trans-boundary Chantry does. Thedas doesn't yet have something like the United Nations, after all. [/quote]

Considering that the Chantry of Andraste has used the Circles of Magi in battle - specifically, the New Exalted Marches, where Gentivi noted that the Circle mages were "the greatest advantage" that the Chantry led forces had against the Qunari armies - I see the same problem with the current system, since the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templar control the Circles of Magi across Thedas. The Chantry and the Orlesian Empire are interwoven, with Orlais conquering other nations throughout its history (which is why they have such a hostile relationship with the nation of Nevarra), and being supported by the Chantry through religious rhetoric, including the time when Orlais conquered and occupied the neighboring nation of Ferelden.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

The only alternative I'd see would be placing all mages under the direct command of the Grey Wardens, likely against much resistance from the Chantry and the various sovereigns. But whilst the Grey Wardens would be able to keep mages in check without bothering about religion, would this really better their lot? They'd still not have the freedom that many of them want - the only thing you'd achieve would be making it an internal issue of the Grey Wardens, with potentially disastrous results for their order. [/quote]

Hasn't the Chantry controlled Circles produced the disastrous result of leading to a continential rebellion from all the Circles of Magi, with the mages fighting to maintain their autonomy and independence from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars? Considering that mages have been fighting for their freedom for centuries, I don't see how the status quo is the best solution, especially when people will always strive for freedom.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

With most Libertarian Mages, it just seems as if there are no half measures as far as liberty is concerned. Give them an inch* and they want a yard. And of course few of them are actually thinking ahead. Anders' suggested alternative to the Chantry Circles is to copy the current Tevinter Imperium (-> dialogue from DA:O), but this only shows how egocentric his worldview actually is. No wonder he can't get along with Fenris, who knows exactly what this means.

*: Compare the mages' situation shortly after the Tevinter Imperium was toppled to the recent years. Mages were allowed the practice of many more spells than in the first decades, they had occasional jaunts out of the Tower, their fraternities (even the rebellious ones) were condoned, ... [/quote]

Isn't Anders' alternative to the Chantry controlled Circles to be free the Circle mages of Chantry and templar control? He's even written a manifesto about his specific ideas regarding mage autonomy. I don't think Anders seriously argues that the Magisters should rule over the mages, since he comments that the elves in the Alienage should rise up with the mages to fight for their rights. When he's given the Tevinter amulet in Act II, he seems to view the Magisters poorly, and blames them for the Golden City turning black.

The Libertarians address being free from the Chantry and its templars, specifically. I don't think they argue that they should live in a world without rules or law enforcement. Even The Warden can agree with the Libertarian position. We also see that, during the royal ceremony, The Warden (from the Surana or Amell background) can request the new ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry and its templars, and the ruler publicly agrees.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Should a religious institution have control over the lives of countless people all across the continent, particularly when their religious views about these specific people seem to be overly negative, to the point of blaming all mages for their version of "original sin"?[/quote]

Actually, this is not quite what the Chantry teaches. And mages are feared because of the very real dangers they represent - a fear that is not at all connected to any religion, and which does show up in other cultures aside from those following the Maker's faith. [/quote]

Greagoir, Keili, Bethany, and Meredith all comment on magic being a "curse," and Bethany notes that this is specifically religious teaching as an Andrastian. And we know from that other cultures with mages view magic differently, so I think it's partly due to the Andrastian religious teachings. "Magic must serve man, and not rule over him." If magic was automatically feared, the Chasind, the Avvars, the Kingdom of Rivain, and even the Dalish would share the Andrastian views on magic and mages, rather than have entirely different views than their Andrastian counterparts.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Look at what happened in Kirkwall: every man, woman, and child of the Gallows was sentenced to death, for the actions of one, ex-Grey Warden mage who had never been a member of the Circle of Kirkwall.[/quote]

A command Meredith wouldn't have given were she not under the influence of the lyrium idol. Much like magic, political authority always comes with the potential to cause great harm if wielded by corrupt individuals. This isn't something exclusive to the templars or the Chantry. It happened in the Tevinter Imperium, and it happened at Ostagard. The difference is that once confronted, mere politicians are notably easier to put down than a powerful mage, which is why we have the Circles. [/quote]

We have Circles of Magi because Emperor Kordilius Drakon I established the Orlesian Empire, the Chantry of Andraste, the Order of Templars, and the Circles of Magi based on his religious beliefs, as a member of one of the Cults of Andraste that he made into the official religion (The Founding of the Chantry; History of the Chantry: Chapter IV). We have mages living in Circle Towers because mages lead a peaceful protest against their lack of rights during the reign of Divine Ambrosia II, and it lead to the segregation of mages from society (History of the Circle).

Meredith had the authority to order such a command regardless of the Lyrium Idol. Hundreds were condemned to death because their lives were in the hands of the Knight-Commander, because (as Cullen says) templars have "divine right" over mages. And I don't think it's fair to compare soldiers at the ruins of Ostagar fighting the darkspawn or the war between the followers of Shartan and Andraste against the Tevinter Imperium to the Circle mages of Kirkwall who were simply living under the brutal rule of the Chantry and the templars. The first two comparisons address people in wars who willingly fight for a specific cause, while the latter addresses mages who are fighting for their very lives because a decree of execution was made for the templars to execute them.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Giving control over all mages to the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars already lead to a continential rebellion, and throughout the history of Thedas there have been rebellions for mage freedom, such as Aldenon's rebellion against the Order of Templars in Ferelden.[/quote]

I'm not sure if Aldenon counts, given that he and his mages never belonged to the Circle in the first place. It's not surprising that there would be resentment amongst the mages of a country when they are are to be relocated to a Tower, but once confined things should be pretty stable. Where did you read there were many rebellions? [/quote]

I was addressing the fundamental idea that mages would fight for their freedom. We have the mage rebellion in Ferelden, the Mages Collective, and the mage underground in Kirkwall to support the idea that there are mages who will resist living under the reign of the Chantry and the templars.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Isn't that an argument for law enforcement, rather than handing over the lives of mages to a religious order that views them with disdain? Particularly when numerous Andrastian refer to mages being "cursed"?[/quote]

Do you really believe that the mages that wish for freedom now would feel any different, were they watched by secular guards instead of templars? Given that the Circles would still have to use the Harrowing and Tranquility and confine the mages to a Tower to keep them under supervision?

Also, the Chant of Light and the current Divine have actually called magic a "gift", but this just as a sidenote. I'm not surprised that mages are seen by many as cursed, given that they are pretty much walking timebombs - as David Gaider said. [/quote]

I think there's a difference between living in a nation with law enforcement that's capable of shutting down the abilities of a mage (i.e. Meredith with the Qunari mage - the the saarebas) and living in a Circle Tower under the constant watch of the military branch of a religious order that has divine right over their lives. A law enforcement of mages and templar-like men and women could accomplish a great deal (i.e. Thrask's dream of templars working alongside mages in unison).

Given how a plethora of Andrastians react negatively to magic and mages (with Wynne noting that innocent mages are killed all the time in Andrastian nations because the locals blame mages for bad things happening that are outside their control, i.e. droughts, a baby dying, ect.) I don't think it's a coincidence, especially when we have Andrastians in two games addressing magic as a curse. Greagoir, specifically, addresses magic as a gift and a curse, while we see Keili and Bethany struggle with how their religious upbringing has impacted their views on themselves as mages.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Quentin is implied to be from the Circle of Starkhaven (based on Gascard's note), and Orsino was from the Circle of Kirkwall. How are they examples of how necessary the Chantry controlled Circles are?[/quote]

It goes to show how dangerous mages are.
Quentin became crazy because his wife died - apart from showing the risks of allowing mages this sort of attachment,  do you think this would be different were he not raised in a Tower? And Orsino knew of him, helped him, and didn't say anything. In fact, he even kept his research to study for himself! [/quote]

I think it's interesting to note that some Circle mages go insane: Starkhaven mages Decimus is insane, and Grace goes insane and becomes an abomination. Huon, who was apparently a sane apostate, is imprisoned for many years and goes insane. Quentin is implied to be from Starkhaven, and Orsino loses his mind and conducts a ritual to become a Harvester (which Gaider called a "super-abomination").

Are they examples of how necessary the Circles of Magi are, or are they products of the Chantry controlled Circles? We hear mages address how brutal the Circle of Starkhaven and the Circle of Kirkwall are. Alain, for instance, is repeatedly raped by templars for years (which is why he turns to Thrask and sides with his initiative to remove Meredith from her position as Knight-Commander), while some mages are beaten for simply speaking with civilians (which is why they explain to Hawke that they can't be seen speaking with him).

Mages can become dangerous - you're absolutely right. But templars can become dangerous, too. As the military might of the most prevelant religion in human society, with "divine right" over an entire group of people, and having the power of the Grand Cleric in the event of her death, I can see the risks they represent in the wrong hands - and that's precisely what we saw with Meredith, from her becoming the de facto Viscount to having a death squad kill people.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In fact, neither character is even stopped by the templars; Meredith dismisses the reports about a serial killer, and Orsino's turn into an abomnation is halted by Hawke and his (or her) moiety crew.[/quote]

I'm sure Meredith would have become active once knowing said killer is a mage, but as it stands the templars are not supposed to play city guard.
Also, Hawke is actually fighting the Harvester together with Meredith and her templars. It stands to reason she'd have done so if Hawke wouldn't have been there, too. [/quote]

Would anyone have discovered Quentin was a mage had Emeric not continued his unpopular investigation, and if Hawke not been looking for his mother specifically?

Hawke, for all his many, many faults, is an effective fighter. He seems to be able to accomplish what ordinary people are unable to, for one reason or another. Hawke's ability to mano a mano with a possessed Knight-Commander would call into question how effective anyone would have been against the Harvester without Hawke's involvement. Perhaps Meredith would have required the use of the Lyrium Idol to give her an edge, and then we would have had a possessed Meredith fighting her own templars without Hawke or his moiety crew giving Cullen's templars the edge against Meredith. I suppose anything is possible, including the worst case scenerio.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Arguments have been made about how effective the Harrowing is when the mages are basically thrown into the Fade with little insight about what they are supposed to do.[/quote]

But they are prepared for the Harrowing in the course of their standard training, as it makes them feel safer wielding their magic and trusting their own abilities. The problem is that there's only so much you can do and that mages will always be vulnerable for demonic possession. The Harrowing is nothing but a "final exam", a trial by fire that shows the mage doesn't need to be watched as closely anymore. [/quote]

Yet no mage actually knows what's required to succeed in the Harrowing. Jowan makes note that no mage one knows, which is why he inquires about what the Harrowing actually is. Irving asks the mage protagonist not to tell anyone how to prepare for the Harrowing, because it's a secret. That calls into question how effective the test is. Even Mouse notes that the mage protagonist sees through his ruse because he is "clever."

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Apostate Hawke, Warden Bethany, and Merrill are simply three apostates who are examples of mages who don't become abominations, without going through the Harrowing.[/quote]

Merrill had elven Keeper training, Hawke has the player bonus and Bethany got lucky? If every mage would turn into an abomination the minute he is born, there wouldn't be any mages left in the world. This does not mean there's no risk, though.

The Harrowing does not increase a mages' defense against demonic possession. It is not a requirement to protect against it. But it is proof the mage is strong enough to resist. [/quote]

Isn't it proof that the mage was clever enough to resist, rather than strong enough?

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If Bethany is brought to the Gallows by Cullen, it's noted that she's immediately given her Harrowing, with no instruction on what she's supposed to do when she enters the Fade.[/quote]

Why would she need instructions? As an older mage who was able to resist all the years before, it seems to me as if this was a mere formality. I'm not even sure if actual instructions on how to act wouldn't be counter-productive to its goals - when a demon tries to possess a mage, it rarely happens in a controlled environment.
Not to mention that it is very likely that each mages' Harrowing is different, all depending on the mage and the demon in question. It is, after all, the Fade we're talking about here. Dreams are very personal. [/quote]

How is it a formality when Bethany has had no formal training or instruction by the Circle of Kirkwall? Some viewed it as an attempt to kill her. Bethany wasn't prepared by the Circle of Kirkwall, she wasn't trained or instructed, she was simply thrown to the wolves, and that's precisely how some people view the Harrowing in general. Wouldn't preparing a mage about how cunning and deceptive a demon can be serve as a more productive guide to dealing with the denizens of the Fade, than leaving them completely ignorant and hoping for the best?

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Since it doesn't protect the mage against future possession (as we see from Abomination Uldred in Origins), there are arguments as to whether it's necessary or not.[/quote]

It depends on what kind of necessity you are referring to. An unharrowed mage can be fine and safe from possession his entire life. But nobody, not even the mage himself, actually knows. He could literally turn into an Abomination any minute, without a trained templar in place to prevent civilian casualties. [/quote]

A mage would need to be in the Fade and lose a battle of wills to a demon (or made a deal with a demon) to become an abomination. The entire point about mages is that they can enter the Fade awake, while ordinary people enter the Fade in their dreams. The mages turning into abominations in Dragon Age II actually contradicted the lore, because it happened in a matter of seconds while the mages were conscious in the real world - which goes against what we explicitly saw in Origins (the scene at Ostagar), with the mages in the Fade clearly not conscious in the real world, and this is further supported by the history on Aeonar, where Andrastians killed all the Tevinter mages because all but one were in the Fade.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Those references are made in addressing that blood magic isn't inherently evil, because it's a method of magic,  and its uses are entirely dependent on the mage using it.[/quote]

A way of thinking I usually counter with the same being true for nuclear weapons. You just don't want any random guy having access to them, and the world might be a better place without them. [/quote]

But nuclear weapons aren't inherently evil, either - they are weapons. And blood magic should be like standard magic - used with proper instruction, by someone who can handle their abilities, and not recklessly. I'd imagine that if the Grey Warden mages see a need for blood magic in their battles against the greatest threat to all life on Thedas, then who am I to contradict them?

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wouldn't that mean that the Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivain, and the Dalish should be exactly like Tevinter, then?[/quote]

No, because - as I previously mentioned - these cultures follow an entirely different lifestyle that doesn't seem to put as much emphasis on personal gain as the "modern" human civilizations do. The one human nation that is as advanced as Orlais and Ferelden (etc) is Tevinter, and we can see it is returning to its dangerous roots already.

I guess it's all a matter of personal focus. An Avvar Shaman or a Dalish Keeper concerned solely with the wellbeing of their tribe simply has different priorities than a free Tevinter mage who is convinced his gifts elevate him above his peers and that he deserves a big palace with lots of slaves. In essence, it's very similar to nobility by blood - a feeling of entitlement. Just with a number of dangerous side effects.

In nations such as Ferelden, Orlais, Tevinter, the Free Marches, even Orzammar, one's station and respect is determined by his wealth, and in true capitalist manner everyone is driven to increase it, at times with unsavory means if they can get away with it. Just where a merchant is going to cheat you with his weights, a mage can dominate your mind to get anything he wants. Remember Idunna? [/quote]

There isn't any democracy in Thedas - all the societies are governed by rulers of one sort or another. Given that common thread, I don't see why magic and mages would be viewed so differently in other cultures, unless we account for how the Andrastian religion accounts for mages as being responsible for the darkspawn, and views them as "cursed" because of their magical abilities. The fact that the seers in the Kingdom of Rivain, the shamans of the Avvar and the Chasind, and the Keepers and the Firsts of the Dalish are viewed in a positive light seems to contrast sharply with how negatively mages and magic are viewed by Andrastians.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

In fact, Idunna's article throws up an interesting question: How much of the templar corruption we get to see in Kirkwall is Tarohne's doing? Wasn't Ser Alrik rather pale as well, much like the possessed Wilmod?
No, I'm not seriously entertaining this thought due to lack of evidence, but it is a rather interesting possibility. [/quote]

If Ser Alrik was under demon possession, wouldn't be have turned into a demon (like Wilmod) when he was attacked? There is also the matter of the templars in his company, who do nothing when he threatens a child mage (Ella - as noted by Bethany's letter to be one of the children she teaches) with illegal tranquility, and implied rape.