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[slashthedragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Question about Tranquility: if one is made Tranquil and then is 'brought back' to normal for a few moments, how would the person know that Tranquility is something so bad they would rather be killed? In other words, if you are in a state where you have no emotions to govern what you feel or think, how would you know that Tranquility was awful if you experienced it without emotions? (if that makes sense)

They still have the memories of what being tranquil is like. Their ability to perceive something and determine if they like it or not, to think something is beautiful is an aesthetic quality, not something that can be determined by logic (America and Korea would have VERY different ideas on what is beautiful)

All decisions you feel strongly on (who you wish to spend your life with, what city you want to live in) could not be made with any emotion. Every tranquil I've met says they are content, but they have no capacity to say if they enjoy what happened to them. They can't enjoy anything.

You would remove any regrets or stress, but you would also remove any joy and small pleasures they could get out of life as well. They would simply be....walking, talking, breathing, but never truly living.

If a tranquil is brought back to normal they can tell me what it's like. And Karl does exactly that. He preferred death rather than be left as tranquil.

Thank you for the answer.  I can logically understand this, but somehow emotionally I can't.   Gah...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why is everyone talking like it is a big shock, that being Tranquil isn't awesome?....

[TEWR]

Because I think in the past people have said "Well the Tranquil enjoy their life now, so it must not be that bad!"

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Rite of Tranquility is not meant to be a blessing. It is meant to be an alternative to death. You don't hear the dead complaining either, but I'm skeptical wether it is awesome or not....
Also, happiness is intangible, if you enjoy your life while Tranquil, does not mean that you didn't enjoy it if you were suddenly cured.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rite of Tranquility is not meant to be a blessing. It is meant to be an alternative to death. You don't hear the dead complaining either, but I'm skeptical wether it is awesome or not....
Also, happiness is intangible, if you enjoy your life while Tranquil, does not mean that you didn't enjoy it if you were suddenly cured.

By definition, Tranquil mages are incapable of enjoying their life.  Enjoyment is an emotion, after all.  If you have no emotional capacity, then you have no capacity for enjoyment.  

[Silfren]

Adanu wrote...


Where are you getting the notion that emotions are intrinsic?

My understanding of how the human psyche operates? 

Human beings simply do not make decisions in an emotion-free vacuum.  We CAN'T.  Even decisions rooted in logic and rationality are colored to some degree by emotion.  It is just not possible to excise emotion from the process. 

And no, "this isn't real life dealing with real human beings, but a fantasy setting with fantasy humans (and elves)" is not going to cut it as a reasonable counter-argument. 

[Lazy Jer]

Most people would find the very concept of being made tranquil horrifying. I know I do. I wouldn't even wish it on the likes of Tarohne. But some volunteer for it. For some people having emotions isn't all that good, since they only feel the bad ones.

[slashthedragon]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Most people would find the very concept of being made tranquil horrifying. I know I do. I wouldn't even wish it on the likes of Tarohne. But some volunteer for it. For some people having emotions isn't all that good, since they only feel the bad ones.

True, if someone is depressed and/or is in situations where sadness and other 'negative' emotions are almost all they feel, feeling nothing would be looked on as good.

[Silfren]

slashthedragon wrote...

Question about Tranquility: if one is made Tranquil and then is 'brought back' to normal for a few moments, how would the person know that Tranquility is something so bad they would rather be killed? In other words, if you are in a state where you have no emotions to govern what you feel or think, how would you know that Tranquility was awful if you experienced it without emotions? (if that makes sense)

What they're reacting to is the MEMORY of the state of being emotionless.  Yes, it's true that once they were made Tranquil again, they would no longer have the emotional capacity necessary to hate their condition.  But in their emotionally lucid state, what they're reacting to is the memory of the nothingness, for wont of a better phrasing. 

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Most people would find the very concept of being made tranquil horrifying. I know I do. I wouldn't even wish it on the likes of Tarohne. But some volunteer for it. For some people having emotions isn't all that good, since they only feel the bad ones.

Unfortunately we have no lore suggesting that any mages have asked to be made Tranquil because they live in a chronically depressed state.  Owain is the only Tranquil who has said anything about having volunteered for the Rite, and he states that he did so out of fear of the Harrowing, not because he was plagued by constantly negative emotion. 

I think there's a case to be made that at lot of mages opt for Tranquility out of unadulterated fear of demonic possession.  The Harrowing is something that no mages are prepared for, after all.  Rather, a mage is dragged out of bed in the middle of the night, with no warning beforehand, and not told what they are going to face until just before they're thrown into the Fade.  From the look of things, they don't have a whole lot of time to make an informed decision, but had to decide right then and there whether to go through with the Harrowing, or submit to Tranquility. 

It would be far better to train mages in magical self-defense from the start, preparing them for the prospect of having to do battle with demons.  After all, a mage is a mage from birth, not from the day they are declared an official mage of the Circle.  Presumably, if we're expected to believe that mages are at constant risk of demonic possession from demons, any untrained apprentice is at a heightened risk at every moment of their lives, not just when the templars and senior mages hurl them unwitting into the raw Fade.  

Obviously the "wisdom" behind throwing an untested, half-asleep mage into the Fade is to see if a mage has the capacity to resist demons even when least prepared for it.  But wouldn't it make just as much, if not more, sense, to simply, from the beginning, train mages to resist?

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why is everyone talking like it is a big shock, that being Tranquil isn't awesome?....

Uh, we weren't?

[Silfren]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


No, I'm not saying he did *not* rape him (and never did, but you're quick to assume it seems), but unlike you I'm seeing several possibilities instead of automatically going for the worst-possible option just because I'd want to make templars look bad.[/quote]

You do realize if he was beaten, bruises would be on his body and his bones would be broken? He'd be limping out into the courtyard, where suspicion would be raised amongst the Templars on why he was injured.

It's rape, because being beaten -- while in line with Karras' character -- would be impossible for someone to not notice.
[/quote]

Couple questions for you, EWR.  You mentioned somewhere that Jowan is referenced in Awakening.  I never got this, so I was hoping for details?  Also, where does Greagoir beat a female mage?

Now, as to the quoted bit, I feel compelled to point out that it is in fact quite common for abusers to go out of their way to hide physical signs.  Many abuse victims I know have described deliberately being beaten or burned or cut somewhere on their body that is going to be covered by clothing, knowing that the victim is not likely going to be interested in deliberately pulling up their shirt or rolling up a sleeve or pant leg in order to show the evidence.  So yeah, not seeing any mages limping about or sporting bruises and black eyes doesn't at all mean they aren't being beaten.

Of course, I can also see a templar like Alrik or Karras forcing a mage to heal themselves in order to hide the evidence, too.  Fear of reprisal is a damn easy way to keep a victim quiet.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

I think there's a case to be made that at lot of mages opt for Tranquility out of unadulterated fear of demonic possession. The Harrowing is something that no mages are prepared for, after all. Rather, a mage is dragged out of bed in the middle of the night, with no warning beforehand, and not told what they are going to face until just before they're thrown into the Fade. From the look of things, they don't have a whole lot of time to make an informed decision, but had to decide right then and there whether to go through with the Harrowing, or submit to Tranquility.

There's something to be said about being dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to face your Harrowing unknowingly: The mage might be thinking "Oh Maker, I'm going to be made Tranquil, aren't I?!" and start having a surplus of anxiety-inducing reactions.

Not exactly the best case for sending a mage to his Harrowing. He may be relieved to find out that's all it is, until he also finds out that if he fails or takes too long -- that last one's a real kicker for me -- he's slain on sight.

It would be far better to train mages in magical self-defense from the start, preparing them for the prospect of having to do battle with demons. After all, a mage is a mage from birth, not from the day they are declared an official mage of the Circle. Presumably, if we're expected to believe that mages are at constant risk of demonic possession from demons, any untrained apprentice is at a heightened risk at every moment of their lives, not just when the templars and senior mages hurl them unwitting into the raw Fade.

That's what I said earlier in the thread.

The counterargument I got -- I forget from whom -- was that it would make them cocky and arrogant.

[TEWR]

Couple questions for you, EWR. You mentioned somewhere that Jowan is referenced in Awakening. I never got this, so I was hoping for details? Also, where does Greagoir beat a female mage?

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Wanted_List

It's from a random encounter in Awakening with some Avvar nomads, where if you investigate you'll find a Templar corpse.

As for Gregoir, it's in the comics. A pregnant female Mage at that.

That's why I find it so despicable. Greagoir was made out to be a decent Templar in Origins and trashed in the comics. Gaider wants us to believe that not all Templars are evil, yet a lot of the decent Templars in the Order either get their reputation trashed in other media or are killed -- sometimes by fellow Templars -- so it kinda kills the argument of "You can't just side with the Mages by default!"

The hell I can't, if that's the type of Templar Order I'm told I should side with because "Mages are explosive kittens"

Of course, I can also see a templar like Alrik or Karras forcing a mage to heal themselves in order to hide the evidence, too. Fear of reprisal is a damn easy way to keep a victim quiet.

I just think it strains credulity for a mage to not get noticed by anyone, be it when he's casting himself in energy to heal himself -- which does create a sort of glow -- or when he's getting dressed.

I too know people that hide what abuse they've suffered. And I won't deny that if Alain was being abused -- alongside the raping that he confirms later on -- he probably would've tried to cover it up by clothing or healing.

But I just think it strains credulity that it would've gone unnoticed for 6 years. The people I knew that were beaten had their personas change considerably, so maybe that's why I find it so unbelievable that no one would notice Alain being abused.

I just see it that if that was what's happening, his persona would've changed and his peers would've noticed and gotten worried.

But that's just me, so it doesn't matter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I think there's a case to be made that at lot of mages opt for Tranquility out of unadulterated fear of demonic possession. The Harrowing is something that no mages are prepared for, after all. Rather, a mage is dragged out of bed in the middle of the night, with no warning beforehand, and not told what they are going to face until just before they're thrown into the Fade. From the look of things, they don't have a whole lot of time to make an informed decision, but had to decide right then and there whether to go through with the Harrowing, or submit to Tranquility.

There's something to be said about being dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to face your Harrowing unknowingly: The mage might be thinking "Oh Maker, I'm going to be made Tranquil, aren't I?!" and start having a surplus of anxiety-inducing reactions.

Not exactly the best case for sending a mage to his Harrowing. He may be relieved to find out that's all it is, until he also finds out that if he fails or takes too long -- that last one's a real kicker for me -- he's slain on sight.

It would be far better to train mages in magical self-defense from the start, preparing them for the prospect of having to do battle with demons. After all, a mage is a mage from birth, not from the day they are declared an official mage of the Circle. Presumably, if we're expected to believe that mages are at constant risk of demonic possession from demons, any untrained apprentice is at a heightened risk at every moment of their lives, not just when the templars and senior mages hurl them unwitting into the raw Fade.

That's what I said earlier in the thread.

The counterargument I got -- I forget from whom -- was that it would make them cocky and arrogant.

ROFL.  Of course it would probably make a few mages cocky and arrogant.  There is no such thing as a completley foolproof method that will conclusively and wholly eliminate even the possibility of mages being possessed or choosing to become (evil) blood mages. 

The closest you'll ever get is by developing a system of rounding up all families known to carry magic in their bloodline, and sterilizing (or just outright killing) them, and unilaterally killing any and all children discovered to be mages as soon as they are found.  And the only thing this system will do is encourage families to hide their heritage and shield their mage children, so it ain't foolproof either.

We have a metric ton of real world evidence that improving people's living conditions--improving the quality of educational facilities, creating programs to fight social ills like hunger and povery--are miles and away more effective at eliminating criminal activity than by enacting harsher legal penalties and building more prisons. 

The same logic applies to the fantasy world of Thedas.  Educating mages in how to use their abilities and improving their living conditions, is going to do a helluva lot more to combat the problem of rogue blood mages and abominations.  It isn't going to ELIMINATE either one, but it will cut down on it quite a bit.  Locking mages away and making them live in constant fear of drastic punitive measures for the slightest infraction is only going to create the very problem it seeks to solve.  Pissing off mages and engendering terror within them of their own abilities...yeah, that works out SO well, dunnit?

Gods forgend a handful of mages become cocky and arrogant under a system that actually equips them with the ideal skills to fight against posssesion.

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

Unfortunately we have no lore suggesting that any mages have asked to be made Tranquil because they live in a chronically depressed state.  Owain is the only Tranquil who has said anything about having volunteered for the Rite, and he states that he did so out of fear of the Harrowing, not because he was plagued by constantly negative emotion. 

I think there's a case to be made that at lot of mages opt for Tranquility out of unadulterated fear of demonic possession.  The Harrowing is something that no mages are prepared for, after all.  Rather, a mage is dragged out of bed in the middle of the night, with no warning beforehand, and not told what they are going to face until just before they're thrown into the Fade.  From the look of things, they don't have a whole lot of time to make an informed decision, but had to decide right then and there whether to go through with the Harrowing, or submit to Tranquility. 

It would be far better to train mages in magical self-defense from the start, preparing them for the prospect of having to do battle with demons.  After all, a mage is a mage from birth, not from the day they are declared an official mage of the Circle.  Presumably, if we're expected to believe that mages are at constant risk of demonic possession from demons, any untrained apprentice is at a heightened risk at every moment of their lives, not just when the templars and senior mages hurl them unwitting into the raw Fade.  

Obviously the "wisdom" behind throwing an untested, half-asleep mage into the Fade is to see if a mage has the capacity to resist demons even when least prepared for it.  But wouldn't it make just as much, if not more, sense, to simply, from the beginning, train mages to resist?

Perhaps...but something like the Harrowing may still be necessary on top of that training.  Training is incredibly helpful but sometimes you never really know how you're going to deal with the situation until you're facing it head-on.

[dragonflight288]

Gods forgend a handful of mages become cocky and arrogant under a system that actually equips them with the ideal skills to fight against posssesion.

Yeah...we may have more Morrigan's running around.

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Unfortunately we have no lore suggesting that any mages have asked to be made Tranquil because they live in a chronically depressed state.  Owain is the only Tranquil who has said anything about having volunteered for the Rite, and he states that he did so out of fear of the Harrowing, not because he was plagued by constantly negative emotion. 

I think there's a case to be made that at lot of mages opt for Tranquility out of unadulterated fear of demonic possession.  The Harrowing is something that no mages are prepared for, after all.  Rather, a mage is dragged out of bed in the middle of the night, with no warning beforehand, and not told what they are going to face until just before they're thrown into the Fade.  From the look of things, they don't have a whole lot of time to make an informed decision, but had to decide right then and there whether to go through with the Harrowing, or submit to Tranquility. 

It would be far better to train mages in magical self-defense from the start, preparing them for the prospect of having to do battle with demons.  After all, a mage is a mage from birth, not from the day they are declared an official mage of the Circle.  Presumably, if we're expected to believe that mages are at constant risk of demonic possession from demons, any untrained apprentice is at a heightened risk at every moment of their lives, not just when the templars and senior mages hurl them unwitting into the raw Fade.  

Obviously the "wisdom" behind throwing an untested, half-asleep mage into the Fade is to see if a mage has the capacity to resist demons even when least prepared for it.  But wouldn't it make just as much, if not more, sense, to simply, from the beginning, train mages to resist?

Perhaps...but something like the Harrowing may still be necessary on top of that training.  Training is incredibly helpful but sometimes you never really know how you're going to deal with the situation until you're facing it head-on.

I never actually suggested otherwise, that the Harrowing should be scrapped entirely.  But it could be overhauled just as the rest of the entire broken, immoral system could.  I have no objection at all to mages being put through a Harrowing as as sort of final exam requirement for graduation.  But there is no need to keep it a deep, dark secret (and I'm sorry, but I'm betting that's probably the worst kept secret in all of Thedas...there will be plenty of mages who would blurt it out; Anders would likely be the first and loudest one to do so), and certainly no reason to hurl mages into it completely unprepared, and, as EWR said, not with the knowledge that a sword is essentially hanging over their head, the clock ticking eerily away.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Circle DOES educate mages in magical self-dense.... So I fail to see what you are trying to say... And the one reason the Harrowing is kept secret, is because if it weren't it wouldn't emulate a real encounter with a demon, and thus it would lose all its value...

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Circle DOES educate mages in magical self-dense.... So I fail to see what you are trying to say... And the one reason the Harrowing is kept secret, is because if it weren't it wouldn't emulate a real encounter with a demon, and thus it would lose all its value...

The Harrowing never had any value. It's about as useful for judging a mage's capability as flipping a coin. You're not getting an accurate reading of their skill or their self-control, it's a total crapshoot. The mages are not taught how to traverse the Fade, or how to combat the influence of demons. It's not a test of skill, because they have no skill. It's based entirely on luck.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They are taught self-discipline, awareness, and self-restraint all things neccesary to combat demon influence. Not to mention the mandatory combat spell every mage must learn, and a myriad of other spells.
The Harrowing is not trainning, it is the final test, and it IS useful, since it shows wether the mage have learned from his trainning or not.

[Heimdall]

Mages are taught self defense, and all that other good stuff EmperorSahlertz mentioned. I don't know about you, but my Mage was trained to take care of himself... Remember those fellows practicing shields and fireballs in the library?

The point of the Harrowing is to prove that a mage is capable of resisting possession. In order to properly simulate this, it has to be unexpected. If mages proves able, they are given leave to learn more advanced magic. The more powerful a mage becomes the more attractive he is to demons, remember? The more powerful the mage, the more powerful the abomination. The Harrowing is for weeding out those without the will to resist possession that would become bigger threats if they were allowed to become more powerful.

Not perfect, but it makes sense to me...

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 29 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Circle DOES educate mages in magical self-dense.... So I fail to see what you are trying to say... And the one reason the Harrowing is kept secret, is because if it weren't it wouldn't emulate a real encounter with a demon, and thus it would lose all its value...

Sometimes I think you just argue for the sake of arguing.

The Circle clearly doesn't teach it well enough.  I think that's obvious.  

I know the REASON the Harrowing is kept secret, such that I hardly need you to spell it out for me.  The reason is altogether beside the point, though. 

Your claim about the Harrowing losing value and being an emulation is the most ridiculous thing I've yet heard about it.  The Harrowing is NOT an emulation.  It is a real encounter with a real demon, with a real risk of possession.  Where did you hear otherwise?  Knowing about it ahead of time is not going to make the Harrowing less real or less dangerous.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are taught self-discipline, awareness, and self-restraint all things neccesary to combat demon influence.

I haven't seen mages being taught any of these things. Even if they are taught them, it doesn't matter, because demons can **** with their minds. When demons have the power to alter your perception of reality, those abilities mean nothing.

Not to mention the mandatory combat spell every mage must learn, and a myriad of other spells.

Which are all great for combatting a demon's physical form, but are totally irrelevent to the purpose of the Harrowing.

The Harrowing is not trainning,

I never said it was.

it is the final test,

People generally get to study before taking their final test. 

and it IS useful, since it shows wether the mage have learned from his trainning or not.

The mages have not been trained to combat demons. None of the skills they've been taught are relevent to the Harrowing, so how can they be shown to have learned anything? Whether or not they succeed in resisting the demon is a matter of sheer luck, there is no guarantee that they will ever be able to do it again. In fact, Wynne, a senior mage who passed her Harrowing a long time ago, was not able to do it again when she fell under the influence of the Sloth Demon.

So the Harrowing is about as useful as throwing snowballs at a fire.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[Always Alice]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As for Gregoir, it's in the comics. A pregnant female Mage at that.

That's why I find it so despicable. Greagoir was made out to be a decent Templar in Origins and trashed in the comics. Gaider wants us to believe that not all Templars are evil, yet a lot of the decent Templars in the Order either get their reputation trashed in other media or are killed -- sometimes by fellow Templars -- so it kinda kills the argument of "You can't just side with the Mages by default!"

Yeah, that whole event was really random and OOC. But to be fair, that event occurs in a flashback that happened 17 years before the main story happens, and I'm not sure if we even know when the main story is supposed to occur. I always assumed it was sometime before DAO, which is why Greagoir looks so much younger (and different) in the comic. I think the implication is that he mellowed out after time (to some degree), which seems to coincide with his scene in the last issue (I don't have the time to dig up my copy but I think I remember him being a lot more relaxed. It's been a while since I read it so I could be wrong though).