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[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Circle DOES educate mages in magical self-dense.... So I fail to see what you are trying to say... And the one reason the Harrowing is kept secret, is because if it weren't it wouldn't emulate a real encounter with a demon, and thus it would lose all its value...

Sometimes I think you just argue for the sake of arguing.

The Circle clearly doesn't teach it well enough.  I think that's obvious.  

I know the REASON the Harrowing is kept secret, such that I hardly need you to spell it out for me.  The reason is altogether beside the point, though. 

Your claim about the Harrowing losing value and being an emulation is the most ridiculous thing I've yet heard about it.  The Harrowing is NOT an emulation.  It is a real encounter with a real demon, with a real risk of possession.  Where did you hear otherwise?  Knowing about it ahead of time is not going to make the Harrowing less real or less dangerous.

Not true, having a chance to prepare oneself to resist a possession would certainly be a different situation than having it happen without warning, which is more likely the way it would happen if outside the Harrowing.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are taught self-discipline, awareness, and self-restraint all things neccesary to combat demon influence.

I haven't seen mages being taught any of these things. Even if they are taught them, it doesn't matter, because demons can **** with their minds. When demons have the power to alter your perception of reality, those abilities mean nothing.

Not to mention the mandatory combat spell every mage must learn, and a myriad of other spells.

Which are all great for combatting a demon's physical form, but are totally irrelevent to the purpose of the Harrowing.

The Harrowing is not trainning,

I never said it was.

it is the final test,

People generally get to study before taking their final test. 

and it IS useful, since it shows wether the mage have learned from his trainning or not.

The mages have not been trained to combat demons. None of the skills they've been taught are relevent to the Harrowing, so how can they be shown to have learned anything? Whether or not they succeed in resisting the demon is a matter of sheer luck, there is no guarantee that they will ever be able to do it again. In fact, Wynne, a senior mage who passed her Harrowing a long time ago, was not able to do it again when she fell under the influence of the Sloth Demon.

So the Harrowing is about as useful as throwing snowballs at a fire.

Then why did my mage know offensive spells before his Harrowing?  Why did I see instructors teaching combat magic in the library to apprentices?  From all appearance, I'd say they are taught to fight.  They are taught about demons as well.  The Harrowing serves as a determiner if the mage is strong willed enough to resist a demon (Actively seeking one out as Uldred did is a different situation altogether)

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Then why did my mage know offensive spells before his Harrowing?  Why did I see instructors teaching combat magic in the library to apprentices?  From all appearance, I'd say they are taught to fight.

Gosh, I don't know. Could it be because the Chantry and the nobility use mages as a military force? Why, I think that just might be it! 

They are taught about demons as well.

When? Give me an example.

The Harrowing serves as a determiner if the mage is strong willed enough to resist a demon (Actively seeking one out as Uldred did is a different situation altogether)

It is a false determination because it determines nothing. As we have already seen with Wynne in DA:O, warding off demonic influence once does not guarantee that the mage will be able to do it again. The templars and the Chantry are gambling with people's lives the same way that one would bet on a horse race or a boxing match.

Keeping the Harrowing a secret is ****ing retarded. The mages who pass the Harrowing are not any stronger than the ones who fail. They lucked out one time.

Because the mages are not taught about the Harrowing, or how to deal with it, they are still not prepared for any encounter they might have with a different demon in a different context, because they have not been taught what to do. They have not been educated in the common linking factors between different types of demons, they have not been taught any warding techniques that have proven to be successful in the past.

Yes, in the real world, mages will not receive any warning about imminent demonic possession. It will come as a surprise. You know what else comes as a surprise? Heart attacks! Strokes! ****ing broken bones! House fires! Crimes!

By your logic, we shouldn't train doctors, firemen or police how to deal with these things because "in real life, it will be a surprise" and the "true determination" of their skill is how well they react when a situation they've never encountered is sprung on them without warning.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 mars 2012 - 05:01 .

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Then why did my mage know offensive spells before his Harrowing?  Why did I see instructors teaching combat magic in the library to apprentices?  From all appearance, I'd say they are taught to fight.

Gosh, I don't know. Could it be because the Chantry and the nobility use mages as a military force? Why, I think that just might be it! 

So you admit that mages are trained to fight?  Good to know they aren't the helpless babes you describe!

The Harrowing serves as a determiner if the mage is strong willed enough to resist a demon (Actively seeking one out as Uldred did is a different situation altogether)

It is a false determination because it determines nothing. As we have already seen with Wynne in DA:O, warding off demonic influence once does not guarantee that the mage will be able to do it again. The templars and the Chantry are gambling with people's lives the same way that one would bet on a horse race or a boxing match.

Gee, because a half dead mage being unable to ward off a spirit is a great example.  You'll need to do better.  If you mean the Sloth demon, that thing was powerful enough to drag a dwarf into the Fade, to defeat that would require great power, which is not what the Harrowing tests.  Even if it did, this is quite the extraordinary case.

Keeping the Harrowing a secret is ****ing retarded. The mages who pass the Harrowing are not any stronger than the ones who fail. They lucked out one time.

Quite plainly, it isn't a matter of strength.  Those who pass the Harrowing are those intelligent enough to see through the deception with at least half decent magical talent.  I mean, really, all it takes is a few basic spells on the power side of things.  Perceptiveness and the integrity not to be tempted are what is tested.  It is not a test of magical power.

By your logic, we shouldn't train doctors, firemen or police how to deal with these things because "in real life, it will be a surprise" and the "true determination" of their skill is how well they react when a situation they've never encountered is sprung on them without warning.

That is not my logic.  Mages are not being tested as to whether they can save a life/  It would be more acurately compared to leaving out money an employee knows they shouldn't take it to see if they would.  It's not a perfect analogy but it's good sight better than the ones your trying to use to discredit me.  Like the employee, the mage has never encountered this situation.  The purpose is so that the bosses (First Enchanter and Templars) can see if their employee is trustworthy enough to be able to take on more responsibilities and more opportunities to be tempted (Further magical power and knowledge).  Like I said, a Mage with greater power is a more attractive bait and a stronger abomination.  Before the mage can attain power, the circle wishes to ascertain whether or not the mage is likely to become a murderous inhuman abomination before they can be announced qualified.  If the mage lacks the self confidance to go through with it (Which in itself could be exploited by a demon) they can opt for tranquility.

It's a Machiavellian system, for lack of a better word, but there it is.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 30 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

They are taught about demons as well.

When? Give me an example.

I thought all the books in the library were reason enough.  Can you really expect me to believe they spent years in this place learning about magical theory without once touching on the demons?

[TEWR]

Mages are not being tested as to whether they can save a life

Technically this isn't true. They're being tested to save their own life as well as the lives of other people.

If they were to be possessed, chances are a few people would die before the Abomination was killed.

I think a far more accurate comparison to make is to say that since Templars don't know when a mage will go rogue or be possessed, this is apparently grounds for them to not learn how to combat magic or demons.

They should just wait until it happens by surprise.

The Harrowing is a good way to test a mage, but it's not the best. There are some definite flaws in the methodology of how it happens.

Waking up a mage in the middle of the night? Okay, that's not so bad when you look at the rationale behind it. Can a mage defend himself/herself when they are at their weakest -- or virtually so?

But telling a Mage he'll be slain on sight if he takes too long? Or if he becomes possessed? Those two can really kill your confidence -- though the killing would obviously need to happen if the latter occurred.

But you don't know the passage of time in the Fade, so it's not really fair for you to be killed if you take too long. What if it's a crafty demon, trying to make you take a long time? You can't leave until you've confronted it. A demon on the other hand, wouldn't wait if it got a body. They crave being in the outside world and would not wait around if they got a foothold in a mage's brain.

So killing a mage because he's taking too long is idiotic and basically says that they don't care about the mage's life. His taking too long is an inconvenience to them.

There's also the lack of knowledge about the Harrowing itself. A Mage doesn't know what it's about, or when it'll happen, or pretty much anything. It's a luck of the draw thing, and even when they're taken to their Harrowing they're never told what's going on until the last minute.

Yea, good luck preparing your mind before your big exam when they say "Your test is.... right now!"

And as it is, when you are told, they do the whole "Take too long or get possessed, you're dead." schtick.

So yea, pros and cons to the way its done. But more so the cons. It needs some reform. And claiming a mage shouldn't be trained for it because it's an "emulation" -- as Emp did -- is a poor argument. Because an emulation would mean it's an imitation. A fake.

It's not. It's very much real.

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...
So you admit that mages are trained to fight?  Good to know they aren't the helpless babes you describe!

Where did I ever call them helpless? The argument in your head is apparently very different from the one I'm having with you.

Gee, because a half dead mage being unable to ward off a spirit is a great example.  You'll need to do better.  If you mean the Sloth demon, that thing was powerful enough to drag a dwarf into the Fade, to defeat that would require great power, which is not what the Harrowing tests.  Even if it did, this is quite the extraordinary case.

Wynne is pretty energetic for someone who is "half-dead" and she is a senior mage who has had extensive circle training. By comparison, Morrigan, an apostate, who has never undertaken any circle tests or lessons, easily recognises the Sloth Demon's deception. A senior enchanter of the circle can't even do that much, really?

Quite plainly, it isn't a matter of strength.  Those who pass the Harrowing are those intelligent enough to see through the deception with at least half decent magical talent.  I mean, really, all it takes is a few basic spells on the power side of things.  Perceptiveness and the integrity not to be tempted are what is tested.  It is not a test of magical power.

So it has nothing to do with strength, but it's not fair to judge Wynne because she's in a weakened state and the demon is stronger than her? Or maybe being "half-dead" also makes her a moron?

That is not my logic.  Mages are not being tested as to whether they can save a life/  It would be more acurately compared to leaving out money an employee knows they shouldn't take it to see if they would.  It's not a perfect analogy but it's good sight better than the ones your trying to use to discredit me.

 Discredit you? You're taking this a bit too personally.

Demons **** with minds. It's easy to resist temptation if you know what it is. Demons alter an individual's perception of reality. It's not as simple as saying no. Wynne wasn't even able to realise that she was trapped in a dream, her mental faculties were compromised by the demonic influence.

Like the employee, the mage has never encountered this situation.  The purpose is so that the bosses (First Enchanter and Templars) can see if their employee is trustworthy enough to be able to take on more responsibilities and more opportunities to be tempted (Further magical power and knowledge).  Like I said, a Mage with greater power is a more attractive bait and a stronger abomination.  Before the mage can attain power, the circle wishes to ascertain whether or not the mage is likely to become a murderous inhuman abomination before they can be announced qualified.

And they ascertain these qualities by testing the mage once, at the end of their apprenticeship, with no warning. And never again.

Sounds super reliable. Not. 

If the mage lacks the self confidance to go through with it (Which in itself could be exploited by a demon) they can opt for tranquility.

If a mage is determined to be unlikely to pass the Harrowing, they don't get the option.

It's a Machiavellian system, for lack of a better word, but there it is.

"Machiavellian" implies that it makes any sort of sense, which the Harrowing does not. It does not determine if a mage is able to resist demonic influence, all it shows is that a mage was able to resist a demon, once. It is not a reliable method, harrowed mages fall to demonic possession all the time.

The way to determine if mages can resist demons is to actually teach them how to do it. Which obviously they do not do, or the Harrowing would not come as a big shock.

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

They are taught about demons as well.

When? Give me an example.

I thought all the books in the library were reason enough.  Can you really expect me to believe they spent years in this place learning about magical theory without once touching on the demons?

Well, you expect me to believe that throwing mages into an unepxected, life-threatening situation for which they have not been prepared is a good test of their capability. Leaving books about the Fade and demons just lying around would be extremely counter productive to that end.

Either their lessons touch on demons, and they have thus been given the skills to complete the Harrowing, or they don't and they haven't.

You get to pick one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Circle DOES educate mages in magical self-dense.... So I fail to see what you are trying to say... And the one reason the Harrowing is kept secret, is because if it weren't it wouldn't emulate a real encounter with a demon, and thus it would lose all its value...

Sometimes I think you just argue for the sake of arguing.

The Circle clearly doesn't teach it well enough.  I think that's obvious.  

I know the REASON the Harrowing is kept secret, such that I hardly need you to spell it out for me.  The reason is altogether beside the point, though. 

Your claim about the Harrowing losing value and being an emulation is the most ridiculous thing I've yet heard about it.  The Harrowing is NOT an emulation.  It is a real encounter with a real demon, with a real risk of possession.  Where did you hear otherwise?  Knowing about it ahead of time is not going to make the Harrowing less real or less dangerous.

And sometimes I think you are pulling "facts" out of your arse....

What is obvious is that the Circle DOES teach its mages well enough. In the 900 years the Circles have stood, Abominations have been a rarity. Now if were as you claim, and that the Circle did a poor job of educating their mages, then the rate of Abominations would've been far higher, than what is stated by lore.

And no, the Harrowing is about as real as a cage fight. You may die, but the encounter is still staged. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

They are taught about demons as well.

When? Give me an example.

I thought all the books in the library were reason enough.  Can you really expect me to believe they spent years in this place learning about magical theory without once touching on the demons?

Well, you expect me to believe that throwing mages into an unepxected, life-threatening situation for which they have not been prepared is a good test of their capability. Leaving books about the Fade and demons just lying around would be extremely counter productive to that end.

Either their lessons touch on demons, and they have thus been given the skills to complete the Harrowing, or they don't and they haven't.

You get to pick one.

Of course their lessons touch upon the subject of demons. It would be extremely stupid not to teach mages, from as early an age as possible, about the dangers of demons. Also, the amount of books within the Library, which is available to all apprentices, that touches upon the subjects of both the Fade and its denizens are quite large. So there are lots of evidence for the mages to be educated in the dangers of the Fade.
However, it would also be counter-productive, to tell these mages about waht exactly the Harrowing enticed, since then it would lose all its simulated value, and would just become a needless encoutner with a demon.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...
Where did I ever call them helpless? The argument in your head is apparently very different from the one I'm having with you.

Are mages not prepared, or are they?  The argument you've been trying to frame is one of helpless mages being thrown at the mercy of demons with no preparation, yet clearly they are prepared to fight.

Wynne is pretty energetic for someone who is "half-dead" and she is a senior mage who has had extensive circle training. By comparison, Morrigan, an apostate, who has never undertaken any circle tests or lessons, easily recognises the Sloth Demon's deception. A senior enchanter of the circle can't even do that much, really?

Morrigan's been tutored by Flemeth her entire life, she's hardly a normal apostate.  Like I said, regardless of any strength of will, this thing could drag dwarves and golems into the Fade. 

So it has nothing to do with strength, but it's not fair to judge Wynne because she's in a weakened state and the demon is stronger than her? Or maybe being "half-dead" also makes her a moron?

  I was refering to her accepting help from the spirit of faith, if you must know.  I wasn't sure what you meant.  You are bringing in two things that have no bearing on one another.  The Harrowing tests mages against a situation where they are powerful enough to get by as long as they have the wit to do so.  In the future they will have that same strength of will and be able to use it against demons of proportional power levels as their strength increases.  The doesn't mean they can't get overwhelmed with sheer power.

Discredit you? You're taking this a bit too personally.

Demons **** with minds. It's easy to resist temptation if you know what it is. Demons alter an individual's perception of reality. It's not as simple as saying no. Wynne wasn't even able to realise that she was trapped in a dream, her mental faculties were compromised by the demonic influence.

Not really, you are strying to discredit my arguments, are you not?  This is where perceptiveness comes in.  Though like I said, the will tested by the Harrowing can be overwhelmed by sheer power.

And they ascertain these qualities by testing the mage once, at the end of their apprenticeship, with no warning. And never again.

Sounds super reliable. Not. 

The purpose is to determine if a mage is safe to continue the study of magic, if one can pass the Harrowing, they have proven able to resist a demon of reasonable strength.  Thus, they will have the will to resist demons of proportional power to themselves as they attract them as they grow in strength.

If a mage is determined to be unlikely to pass the Harrowing, they don't get the option.

  I never said it was perfect.  It's clearly a flawed testing system.  It just isn't as nonsensical as you have been trying to say,

"Machiavellian" implies that it makes any sort of sense, which the Harrowing does not. It does not determine if a mage is able to resist demonic influence, all it shows is that a mage was able to resist a demon, once. It is not a reliable method, harrowed mages fall to demonic possession all the time.

The way to determine if mages can resist demons is to actually teach them how to do it. Which obviously they do not do, or the Harrowing would not come as a big shock.

I'd like you to show me all the instances where Harrowed mages fell to demonic possession where they did not summon a demon and do it deliberately.  Do to the heavily weakened veil, Kirkwall doesn't count, as it is an extraordinary circumstance.

Honestly, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they teach apprentices nothing about demonic possession.  Doesn't Irving urge you to "remember your training"? 

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 30 mars 2012 - 12:29 .

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

They are taught about demons as well.

When? Give me an example.

I thought all the books in the library were reason enough.  Can you really expect me to believe they spent years in this place learning about magical theory without once touching on the demons?

Well, you expect me to believe that throwing mages into an unepxected, life-threatening situation for which they have not been prepared is a good test of their capability. Leaving books about the Fade and demons just lying around would be extremely counter productive to that end.

Either their lessons touch on demons, and they have thus been given the skills to complete the Harrowing, or they don't and they haven't.

You get to pick one.

Where are you getting the notion that mages are't taught about demonic possession?

[Lazy Jer]

I've only just recently completed DA:O-Awakenings. It occurs to me that Anders has always been at least partially under the control of another being. In Dragon Age 2 it was Justice, in Dragon Age: Origins - Awakenings it was Ser Pounce-a-Lot.

One wonders, given the similarities, how the game would have changed of someone gave Meredeth a kitten.

[dragonflight288]

The purpose is to determine if a mage is safe to continue the study of magic, if one can pass the Harrowing, they have proven able to resist a demon of reasonable strength. Thus, they will have the will to resist demons of proportional power to themselves as they attract them as they grow in strength.

My personal opinion is that this is only partially correct. Gaider has said that it's overall power of the mage in question, not just magical power. Connor being the prime example. He was a young boy, barely trained in magic and could barely cast a basic spell.

But he was also the son of a powerful arl, one with a great deal of political power and influence. This political power added onto what little magic power Connor already had, attracting a desire demon, something far beyond a traumatized and terrified young boy to deal with.

This may be an argument in support of the circles because of what Connor unleashed, and it can just as easily be an argument against the Circles, because the entire situation was brought about by a frantic mother who would do anything to keep her son, and keep him out of the circle.

I've only just recently completed DA:O-Awakenings. It occurs to me that Anders has always been at least partially under the control of another being. In Dragon Age 2 it was Justice, in Dragon Age: Origins - Awakenings it was Ser Pounce-a-Lot.

One wonders, given the similarities, how the game would have changed of someone gave Meredeth a kitten.

HAHAHAHAHA! Shame that Anders couldn't find any, even if he was leaving out milk.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Of course their lessons touch upon the subject of demons. It would be extremely stupid not to teach mages, from as early an age as possible, about the dangers of demons. Also, the amount of books within the Library, which is available to all apprentices, that touches upon the subjects of both the Fade and its denizens are quite large. So there are lots of evidence for the mages to be educated in the dangers of the Fade.
However, it would also be counter-productive, to tell these mages about waht exactly the Harrowing enticed, since then it would lose all its simulated value, and would just become a needless encoutner with a demon.

It is a needless encounter with a demon! It is not a simulation! When you go through the Harrowing, you face a real demon.

If mages are being so thoroughly educated about the Fade and demons, then how come the Harrowing is their first real encounter with either?

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Honestly, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they teach apprentices nothing about demonic possession.  Doesn't Irving urge you to "remember your training"? 

What training? If the mages are being trained properly, then they should've been traversing the Fade and having encounters with demons before now. If they are being educated about these things, then how come their first and only practical exercise is five seconds before graduation?

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...
What training? If the mages are being trained properly, then they should've been traversing the Fade and having encounters with demons before now. If they are being educated about these things, then how come their first and only practical exercise is five seconds before graduation?

Actually the way they do it makes a bit of sense if you take into account that (a) the harrowing takes lyruim which means frequently entering the fade is a drain on the lyrium resource and ( the harrowing does more then test your skills and wherewithal, but also tests your willpower and commen sense in the fade.  Both of which can help you avoid possession.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Actually the way they do it makes a bit of sense if you take into account that (a) the harrowing takes lyruim which means frequently entering the fade is a drain on the lyrium resource

A pefectly justifiable expense if you want the mages to be a reliable fighting force.

and ( the harrowing does more then test your skills and wherewithal, but also tests your willpower and commen sense in the fade.  Both of which can help you avoid possession.

Qualities which could be developed and strengthened over time with repeated exposure in a properly supervised environment.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Qualities which could be developed and strengthened over time with repeated exposure in a properly supervised environment.

The lyrium usage I won't fully touch upon -- as that's a tricky issue. It's not as simple as "Use up all the lyrium for the mages" -- but this one I should touch upon.

I suggested a similar idea earlier in the thread. At least ten pages or so back. But it should be noted that the Fade cannot be mapped. I recall a codex entry talking about how the Tevinter Magisters of old tried hard to map out the Fade, only to find it ever-changing and impossible to do so.

Now, this doesn't negate study of the denizens themselves being performed. Nor does it mean that experience in the Fade is completely worthless. The mages are supposedly fully aware when they go to the Fade at any time -- be it when sleeping or in a conscious state of mind. This is something that's not true for all mages it seems, as Wynne wasn't able to recognize she was in the Fade -- when Morrigan and even Sten were able to.

And if a non-mage was able to recognize the illusion before him for being just that when a Mage couldn't, that says something about both the Circle's training methods as well as the reputation Mages have for their state of mind in the Fade.

So while the Fade can't be mapped, it does say something about how experienced the Mage is in the Fade when they're going there, if it were being done. If they know how the Fade operates on some level as a class rather then in a dream-state -- where they might not actually know what's happening -- then this ups their chances of passing their Harrowing.

However, it's not as simple as "trips to the Fade a lot of the time" unfortunately. Lyrium is a very rare commodity, and only so much of it is given to the Chantry legally. The rest is given to the Dwarven smiths. And there's only so much the Dwarves can mine currently.

Certainly, in an ideal world without Darkspawn plaguing the Dwarves and in a reformed Circle, more lyrium could be mined and would help this out.

But, that's not an option currently, due to many factors. Funnily enough, had society helped the Dwarves out in any of the Ages past in their fight against the Darkspawn, this would've meant that more mines could be re-opened, more lyrium mined, and the Mages slowly -- but surely -- getting a better system to train them.

Sort of a.... quid pro quo thing I believe.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 mars 2012 - 06:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...
It is a needless encounter with a demon! It is not a simulation! When you go through the Harrowing, you face a real demon.

If mages are being so thoroughly educated about the Fade and demons, then how come the Harrowing is their first real encounter with either?

::sigh:: ....... It is not a simulation of an encounter with a demon. It is a simulation of a natural encoutner with a demon. If you don't understand the difference, then you probably wouldn't have passed your Harrowing....

And since the mages enters the Fade conciously when they sleep, the Harrowing obviously isn't their first encounter with the Fade, and they have been educated on the Fade for last 16+ years they've been in the Circle. Nor is the Harrowing neccesarily their first encounter with demons either. I would not be surprised if some unlucky apprentices are plagued by demons even in their young years, but since demons are attracted to worldly and magical power and apprentices rarely have either in their apprenticehood, the tastyness of an apprentice is luckily reduced in the eyes of demons.
And the apprentices have also been educated on demons and their differences in the 16+ years they have been studying at the Circle, and they havn't purposefully been set to encounter any demon before their Harrowing because it is dangerous. They are only to go through their Harrowing when the Enchanters feel like the apprentice would survive it.

[DeadPoolX]

I apologize if the following has been mentioned before, but 74 pages of debate is a lot to wade through.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned how Anders' actions will affect mages all over Thedas.

The average person probably believes in the Maker and the Chantry. They probably also have some fear of mages, if for no other reason, the Chantry has instilled that view.

So when people hear about a mage blowing up the Chantry in Kirkwall and the subsequent uprisings taking place all over the nation, how do you think they'll respond? With fear, that's how.

Fear is dangerous as it often leads to hatred and violence.

The average person will now probably fear mages even more than before and for good reason. You can bet that some mages will be really pissed off at everyone else and attack indiscriminately. Even if most mages don't, it only takes one to cast a few incredibly destructive spells and level a village.

If nothing else, Anders has most likely made the majority of the populace turn against mages more strongly than ever before. You can bet the Templars will be using this fear (probably by conjuring up stories and images of the Tevinter Imperium) to gain allies and new soldiers.

At least if Anders had made sure the Chantry was empty before setting off the bomb. Sure, the building itself would've been destroyed, but at least the Grand Cleric would still be alive. The destruction of the building would be symbolic enough without committing murder.

It'd be interesting if mages themselves were split on how to handle the situation. I could easily see mages splintering into different factions, some advocating peaceful methods while others use violence.

I know some people here might ask: "Well, what was the alternative? Keep mages locked up like animals forever?"

No, but people were slowly turning against the Templars in Kirkwall. In time there might have been enough support to pressure the Chantry and Templars into giving mages more rights and maybe eventually freedom. Other mage circles would eventually follow.

[Always Alice]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

I apologize if the following has been mentioned before, but 74 pages of debate is a lot to wade through.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned how Anders' actions will affect mages all over Thedas.

The average person probably believes in the Maker and the Chantry. They probably also have some fear of mages, if for no other reason, the Chantry has instilled that view.

So when people hear about a mage blowing up the Chantry in Kirkwall and the subsequent uprisings taking place all over the nation, how do you think they'll respond? With fear, that's how.

Fear is dangerous as it often leads to hatred and violence.

The average person will now probably fear mages even more than before and for good reason. You can bet that some mages will be really pissed off at everyone else and attack indiscriminately. Even if most mages don't, it only takes one to cast a few incredibly destructive spells and level a village.

If nothing else, Anders has most likely made the majority of the populace turn against mages more strongly than ever before. You can bet the Templars will be using this fear (probably by conjuring up stories and images of the Tevinter Imperium) to gain allies and new soldiers.

Exactly!

At least if Anders had made sure the Chantry was empty before setting off the bomb. Sure, the building itself would've been destroyed, but at least the Grand Cleric would still be alive. The destruction of the building would be symbolic enough without committing murder.

Even if the building was empty, an explosion of the magnitude is bound to cause collateral damage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Divine was already working on increasing mage rights...

[dragonflight288]

No, but people were slowly turning against the Templars in Kirkwall. In time there might have been enough support to pressure the Chantry and Templars into giving mages more rights and maybe eventually freedom. Other mage circles would eventually follow.

I think it's important to point out why people were turning against the templar's in kirkwall. Meredith was meddling in politics long before Hawke had arrived. When Hawke is borderline turned away at the gates, the guards outright state that Meredith is the power in Kirkwall. And that Viscount Dumar had never really done anything that goes against what she wants.

When Meredith took power after the Arishok's defeat or withdrawal, she has death squads going around killing non-mages for things that aren't really crimes. She is trying to force Aveline, the guard captain, out of office to consolidate power and have the guards forcibly made part of their force. Aveline and the guards were practically fighting the templars out of the her office.

She also went out of her way to prevent any noble from stepping forward and becoming the new viscount. She claimed it was because she was the only one capable of protecting the city, and would only give up power when the danger was no longer present, meaning never as she saw danger in every corner, and in some cases created that danger with her paranoia.

On a wider scale, many templars (if Asunder is to be believed) share Meredith's zealous attitude to magic and all mages. Also all templars are also drug addicts, who can go insane or die as a result of lyrium withdrawal. The chantry controls the lyrium trade, but the templars have left the chantry, so they also lost all legal means of acquiring lyrium. It won't take very long before you have an army of desperate zealots wanting their quick fix.

Many templars (not all) will see any action they need to take to get that lyrium as justified in the Maker's eyes. They believe they have divine right over mages, even though templars didn't even exist when Andraste taught the Chant of Light. They can cause just as much damage to the world around them as a few evil mages because they are so zealous, self-righteous, and desperate for lyrium.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 A demon on the other hand, wouldn't wait if it got a body. They crave being in the outside world and would not wait around if they got a foothold in a mage's brain.

One thing I've wondered about is just how the templars would be absolutely certain whether or not a mage was possessed.  It's pretty clear that templars DON'T apparently have the ability to simply "sense" when a mage is walking about with a guest riding piggyback in their body.  Witness both Wynne and Anders, after all.  And the Pride demon that the Mage Warden encounters is clearly knowledgeable of the Harrowing, and knows the templars will be waiting to kill the hapless mage at the first sign of trouble.  So it stands to reason it would make a point of lying low.