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[magelet]

arelenriel wrote...

Polar opposites in some ways yet not in others since neither the conservative dictator nor the revolutionary character care how many innocents die in achieving the end game and neither is willing to accept that they may be wrong either in their beliefs or the methods they are using to achieve them

Well, yes. I would say polar opposites in their beliefs and methods, which would be what a person like that would define themselves by. Not to mention their personalities I guess.

So then I suppose it would come down to how you want to define "the same": by the consequences of their actions and their steadfastness in their beliefs, or the nature of those beliefs and their choices about how to take action with them.

[dragonflight288]

It's been nearly a millennia of the mages living under the Chantry controlled Circles, and even the Hero of Ferelden saving the world from the Fifth Blight wasn't able to emancipate the local Circle of Magi as a reward for his efforts, or the efforts of the mages (who have participated in every single Blight). I understand that some people disagree with what Anders did, but like Michael Hamilton said, it's a dictatorship. I don't think there's a peaceful solution when the mages want to be free from the Chantry and its templars, and the Chantry and the templars want to control the mages. There's no middle ground, there are only two extremes that cannot be reconciled.

This is true. The Divine, the head of the Chantry, tried to mediate things peacefully the Templars blatantly disregarded the head of the religious organization they claimed to be loyal to. The zealous leaders wanted it their way, or all mages to be killed. No in between, no compromise.

The mages (the evil ones that is) did bring the issue to a head, but it was the templars who forced the issue and made it every mage has to either fight for his life against the templars, die, or be tranquilized.

[Lynata]

dragonflight288 wrote...
This is true. The Divine, the head of the Chantry, tried to mediate things peacefully the Templars blatantly disregarded the head of the religious organization they claimed to be loyal to.

To be fair, it wasn't the Templars but rather the Seekers.

Which kinda surprised me as I always thought they were supposed to be the Chantry's safeguard keeping the Templars in check! Yet what we see in Asunder is the Lord Seeker removing first the Knight-Commander and then the Knight-Captain of the Templars' headquarters in Orlais for being "too soft".

Though his motivations are quite understandable ... he was a pro-mage idealist once and paid a terrible price for his trust, so now he has become the very counterpart to his former beliefs and swayed to the other extreme instead of being the middle ground the Seekers should be about. In the end, his actions are counterproductive and in some cases even outright wrong.

[EmperorSahlertz]

To be fair, the reason the Seekers and Templars disagreed with the current Divine, was because the mages was, as the Divine spoke of improvement, meeting and talking openly of rebellion. The Templars and Seekers just felt that the mages, weren't ready to hold the responsibilities of freedom. And of course the added effect of not wanting to lose that much power in one stroke.

[dragonflight288]

It all comes down to power.

To be fair, it wasn't the Templars but rather the Seekers.

Which kinda surprised me as I always thought they were supposed to be the Chantry's safeguard keeping the Templars in check! Yet what we see in Asunder is the Lord Seeker removing first the Knight-Commander and then the Knight-Captain of the Templars' headquarters in Orlais for being "too soft".

Though his motivations are quite understandable ... he was a pro-mage idealist once and paid a terrible price for his trust, so now he has become the very counterpart to his former beliefs and swayed to the other extreme instead of being the middle ground the Seekers should be about. In the end, his actions are counterproductive and in some cases even outright wrong.

Right. well, we know why the Seekers weren't investigating Meredith at least. Their leader was just a hardcase as she was.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think they were investigating her, because Kirkwall as a whole had a lot more trouble with mages. Add to that the problems in Ferelden, and I'd wager the Seekers had their plate full.

[tankdogg937]

Both are a pain in the arse. Meredith is just insane by any stretch. Anders is like a kid who has been bullied at school and then he brings a gun in and mows down people regardless of their innocence. That is pretty much mages in general. Back them into a corner and they go abomination mode.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think they were investigating her, because Kirkwall as a whole had a lot more trouble with mages. Add to that the problems in Ferelden, and I'd wager the Seekers had their plate full.

The Knight-Commander illegally seized political power, became a despot, installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep, had a death squad killing people, and managed to alienate to only the nobility of the city-state, but the mages and the templars as well. I don't see why the Seekers never bothered to investigate her, especially when she managed to cause such unrest that mages and templars were working side by side in order to oust her from power.

What problems are you referring to, exactly? You mean King Alistair shielding apostates from the Chantry, or continuing to argue for the Magi boon several years later?

[EmperorSahlertz]

There was an incident at the Ferelden Circle, which is never specified. May be the harboring of apostates, may be something else. But apparently it was important.
And Kirkwall had larger fish to fry than a "rogue" Knight-Commander. With mages preaching open rebellion and roving bands of blood mages hunting the streets at night. Until The "Final Straw" Meredith hadn't done anything so abhoorible wrong, that the Seekers would feel compelled to investigate, and after.... Well, by then it was too late.

[dragonflight288]

If by mages preaching open rebellion, I think you're referring to Orsino at the beginning of Act 3.

What he was doing was far from wise and could have easily incited a riot, he did have very valid points. Kirkwall was not running as Kirkwall was meant to run.

And what do you mean hadn't done anything abhorrent or wrong? Death Squads killing innocent people? Trying to consolidate power by kicking out the Guard Captain who couldn't be bought? Well, except by Hawke due to their friendship. Or even having far more political power than the Chantry normally allows Knight-Commanders?

Well, it was all done legally (even if it should be illegal) the death squads alone are worth giving her the boot and sending her to Val Reuyeaux.

[Sons of Horus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If by mages preaching open rebellion, I think you're referring to Orsino at the beginning of Act 3.

What he was doing was far from wise and could have easily incited a riot, he did have very valid points. Kirkwall was not running as Kirkwall was meant to run.

And what do you mean hadn't done anything abhorrent or wrong? Death Squads killing innocent people? Trying to consolidate power by kicking out the Guard Captain who couldn't be bought? Well, except by Hawke due to their friendship. Or even having far more political power than the Chantry normally allows Knight-Commanders?

Well, it was all done legally (even if it should be illegal) the death squads alone are worth giving her the boot and sending her to Val Reuyeaux.

Somehow i don’t think the death squads are well known. For example if you had gone the templar route doing searching for blood mages, the two templars get into an argument over what to do with mage sympathisers. I think its just some of Meredith’s templars are incredibly ruthless and its going unreported wile she’s ranting at the Orsino (who had been most likely teaching blood magic in the circle).

[Plaintiff]

tankdogg937 wrote...
That is pretty much mages in general. Back them into a corner and they go abomination mode.

Maybe people should stop doing that, then.

[Jjacobclark]

They are both pretty bad people. After reading the first ten pages  of this thread, I was a bit surprised at how polemical both sides of the issue are.

Without a doubt it is easy to see that the mages are victims of a great injustice.
Nevertheless, the mages are also capable of inflicting great harm with or without any provocation.
obviously, neither the Templars or the Mages had an adequate solution to the problem.


The Chantry is obviously an organized religion. While it is true Elthina did little and probably much less than she could have done, I find it inexcusable that anders would bomb a church. As we see in da1 the chantry is very concerned with helping those in need (which is to say nothing about the metaphysical aspects of the religion which are at least somewhat confirmed in the tears of andraste) To say that every lay-person/cleric is guilty merely by assocation and deserved to be bombed is simply ludicris.



morally speaking the mages are just as culpable as the templars

I don't mean to belittle the psychology that identifies with the revolutionary spirit. Life is often times unfair and I can see how the mages plight is very appealing. Nevertheless, I see a certain discrepency between the actions of anders and the results the mages would actually like to achieve for themeselves.

Modifié par Jjacobclark, 05 avril 2012 - 09:45 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If by mages preaching open rebellion, I think you're referring to Orsino at the beginning of Act 3.

What he was doing was far from wise and could have easily incited a riot, he did have very valid points. Kirkwall was not running as Kirkwall was meant to run.

And what do you mean hadn't done anything abhorrent or wrong? Death Squads killing innocent people? Trying to consolidate power by kicking out the Guard Captain who couldn't be bought? Well, except by Hawke due to their friendship. Or even having far more political power than the Chantry normally allows Knight-Commanders?

Well, it was all done legally (even if it should be illegal) the death squads alone are worth giving her the boot and sending her to Val Reuyeaux.

Do you have any proof, any proof at all, that these death squads was specifically authorized by Meredith? I don't think we do, and whatever form of investigation could have been formed, died along with the death squad when hawke killed them. So Meredith hadn't done anyhting that meritted a full investigation yet, since Kirkwall was having a mage problem, and Meredith was trying to handle it.

[dragonflight288]

Do you have any proof, any proof at all, that these death squads was specifically authorized by Meredith?

Nope. But they are out in the open, killing citizens in the streets, in full view of the public.

They could easily have been rogue, but there is NO way no one didn't report it. Meredith HAD to know about it, even if she may or may not have authorized it.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There was an incident at the Ferelden Circle, which is never specified. May be the harboring of apostates, may be something else. But apparently it was important.

You mean the dialogue from Leliana in "Faith"?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Kirkwall had larger fish to fry than a "rogue" Knight-Commander.

Meredith isn't simply a "rogue" Knight-Commander, she's become the dictator over the entire city-state of Kirkwall, she has installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep in an open display of power and prevented the election of a new Viscount, she had a death squad that can be stopped in "A Noble Agenda," she was trying to usurp control over the City Guard, and she had alienated mages and templars to such an extent that we see Thrask bringing mages and templars together in opposition to her dictatorship.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

With mages preaching open rebellion and roving bands of blood mages hunting the streets at night. Until The "Final Straw" Meredith hadn't done anything so abhoorible wrong, that the Seekers would feel compelled to investigate, and after.... Well, by then it was too late.

Orsino preached against a dictatorship, which should have been investigated by the Seekers three years prior to Act III. Meredith's death squad was killing people, which is another issue that warranted investigation by the Seekers.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Do you have any proof, any proof at all, that these death squads was specifically authorized by Meredith?

Nope. But they are out in the open, killing citizens in the streets, in full view of the public.

They could easily have been rogue, but there is NO way no one didn't report it. Meredith HAD to know about it, even if she may or may not have authorized it.

Even if it were reported, the Death Squad would be dead by then, so there would be little left to investigate. If Meredith did indeed know about it, whatever could lead back to her, was killed along with the Death Squad.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There was an incident at the Ferelden Circle, which is never specified. May be the harboring of apostates, may be something else. But apparently it was important.

You mean the dialogue from Leliana in "Faith"?

 
Yes.

LobselVith8 wrote... 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Kirkwall had larger fish to fry than a "rogue" Knight-Commander.

Meredith isn't simply a "rogue" Knight-Commander, she's become the dictator over the entire city-state of Kirkwall, she has installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep in an open display of power and prevented the election of a new Viscount, she had a death squad that can be stopped in "A Noble Agenda," she was trying to usurp control over the City Guard, and she had alienated mages and templars to such an extent that we see Thrask bringing mages and templars together in opposition to her dictatorship.

 
And we all know how that went down. Betrayed by a Circle Mage who had turned to blood magic, further validating Meredith's stand.

LobselVith8 wrote... 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

With mages preaching open rebellion and roving bands of blood mages hunting the streets at night. Until The "Final Straw" Meredith hadn't done anything so abhoorible wrong, that the Seekers would feel compelled to investigate, and after.... Well, by then it was too late.

Orsino preached against a dictatorship, which should have been investigated by the Seekers three years prior to Act III. Meredith's death squad was killing people, which is another issue that warranted investigation by the Seekers.

Orsino weren't the only one peraching open rebellion. There are also the resolutionists, and to a certain extend Anders.  And again the Death Aquad may or may not have been authorized by Meredith. And whatever was the truth of the amtter, the chances of finding out, died along with the Death Squad.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith isn't simply a "rogue" Knight-Commander, she's become the dictator over the entire city-state of Kirkwall, she has installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep in an open display of power and prevented the election of a new Viscount, she had a death squad that can be stopped in "A Noble Agenda," she was trying to usurp control over the City Guard, and she had alienated mages and templars to such an extent that we see Thrask bringing mages and templars together in opposition to her dictatorship.

And we all know how that went down. Betrayed by a Circle Mage who had turned to blood magic, further validating Meredith's stand.

How does First Enchanter Orsino becoming a complete idiot validate Meredith ordering the execution of hundreds of men women, and children for an act that Anders alone is responsible for? It also doesn't validate her dictatorship over the people of Kirkwall.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino preached against a dictatorship, which should have been investigated by the Seekers three years prior to Act III. Meredith's death squad was killing people, which is another issue that warranted investigation by the Seekers.

Orsino weren't the only one peraching open rebellion. There are also the resolutionists, and to a certain extend Anders.  And again the Death Aquad may or may not have been authorized by Meredith. And whatever was the truth of the amtter, the chances of finding out, died along with the Death Squad.

Orsino was speaking out against an oppressive dictatorship.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith isn't simply a "rogue" Knight-Commander, she's become the dictator over the entire city-state of Kirkwall, she has installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep in an open display of power and prevented the election of a new Viscount, she had a death squad that can be stopped in "A Noble Agenda," she was trying to usurp control over the City Guard, and she had alienated mages and templars to such an extent that we see Thrask bringing mages and templars together in opposition to her dictatorship.

And we all know how that went down. Betrayed by a Circle Mage who had turned to blood magic, further validating Meredith's stand.

How does First Enchanter Orsino becoming a complete idiot validate Meredith ordering the execution of hundreds of men women, and children for an act that Anders alone is responsible for? It also doesn't validate her dictatorship over the people of Kirkwall.

I was referring to the "Thrask Insurrection". Not what happened during "The Final Straw".

LobselVith8 wrote... 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino preached against a dictatorship, which should have been investigated by the Seekers three years prior to Act III. Meredith's death squad was killing people, which is another issue that warranted investigation by the Seekers.

Orsino weren't the only one peraching open rebellion. There are also the resolutionists, and to a certain extend Anders.  And again the Death Aquad may or may not have been authorized by Meredith. And whatever was the truth of the amtter, the chances of finding out, died along with the Death Squad.

Orsino was speaking out against an oppressive dictatorship.

However you want to sugarcoat it, that isn't what the people of Thedas are gonna see. They are only going to see a mage preaching insurrection.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 avril 2012 - 03:27 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How does First Enchanter Orsino becoming a complete idiot validate Meredith ordering the execution of hundreds of men women, and children for an act that Anders alone is responsible for? It also doesn't validate her dictatorship over the people of Kirkwall.

I was referring to the "Thrask Insurrection". Not what happened during "The Final Straw".

Grace and Decimus were insane and stupid, like virtually every single mage antagonist in the narrative (except for Danarius and Idunna). I'm never going to dispute that.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino was speaking out against an oppressive dictatorship.

However you want to sugarcoat it, that isn't what the people of Thedas are gonna see. They are only going to see a mage preaching insurrection.

The First Enchanter preaching to topple a dictatorship by speaking to non-mages, you mean?

[dragonflight288]

Meredith was a dictator. A tyrant, and had no justification for what she was doing. I can easily compare her actions as leader of Kirkwall to several real life dictators and monsters.

Hitler, Pol-Pot, Stalin, and even Hussein. All had death squads. All seized power (although Hussein got it with help from the U.S.) all were exceptionally paranoid, all felt it was their way or death, and all committed some form of genocide, or tried to at least.

[TEWR]

However you want to sugarcoat it, that isn't what the people of Thedas are gonna see. They are only going to see a mage preaching insurrection.

Insurrection being defined as the woman who has let absolute power corrupt her absolutely -- and the idol, though Orsino only knew of the power -- needing to be removed from power.

And people wonder why the Mages don't try and come forward revealing the crimes of the Templars. Because they're going to be immediately labeled as supporting insurrection.

Orsino wasn't preaching for the Chantry to be destroyed, or for the Templars to be ousted, or anything else. Meredith had become corrupted by two things: Power and the Idol. Insofar as Orsino knew, the former was all that corrupted her.

If a mage reveals the crimes of a Templar, he's immediately labeled as a "rebel". This is why there's no justice in the system. Because the word of a mage is considered less than dirt.

FACT: Non-Mages were working against Meredith, even if the Champion doesn't support him. Though the nobles in the immediate vicinity of the event are lemmings, there are two near the Blooming Rose that discuss nobles helping mages. Additionally, I see no reason not to believe that the female noble for a pro-mage Hawke didn't still do what she was doing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2012 - 04:48 .

[dragonflight288]

However you want to sugarcoat it, that isn't what the people of Thedas are gonna see. They are only going to see a mage preaching insurrection.

Meredith accused her own templars of insurrection when they refused to follow her orders to kill the Champion.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
However you want to sugarcoat it, that isn't what the people of Thedas are gonna see. They are only going to see a mage preaching insurrection.

Sweeping, baseless generalizaions aside, so what? Religious right-wing conservatives will look at a gay pride parade and they will only filthy sinners trying to indoctrinate the children into a godless lifestyle. Does that mean homosexuals should stop having pride parades? Or that they should just abandon the fight for visibility and civil rights entirely?

The people of Thedas can't change their minds about mages if they are never exposed to opposing viewpoints, you can't learn to like chocolate if you're only given vanilla. Orsino's protests may not change any minds, but someone has to start somewhere.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 avril 2012 - 05:39 .