2008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Four posts, three posters, all failing to understand the point...... ::sigh::

[dragonflight288]

We got the point. Mages are dangerous who need to be contained. The point we're making is that we recognize the threat of mages, but you can't ignore the dangers of having a paranoid schizophrenic like Meredith in power either because she, and other such leaders, can cause just as much damage as any mage.

[ObserverStatus]

Anders and Meridith were both pawns in the Maker's glorious plan to start a war to purge the Earth of the Mages he hates, nothing more and nothing less.

[Lazy Jer]

bobobo878 wrote...

Anders and Meridith were both pawns in the Maker's glorious plan to start a war to purge the Earth of the Mages he hates, nothing more and nothing less.

Unless it was to purge the world of the non-mages he hates.  Or even worse...maybe it was to purge the world of mages and non-mages and leave the surface world for the Darkspawn.  Then he'll create a similar war between all of them to bump them off.  All must fear the Maker when he gets in a weird mood.

[DKJaigen]

Lazy Jer wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Anders and Meridith were both pawns in the Maker's glorious plan to start a war to purge the Earth of the Mages he hates, nothing more and nothing less.

Unless it was to purge the world of the non-mages he hates.  Or even worse...maybe it was to purge the world of mages and non-mages and leave the surface world for the Darkspawn.  Then he'll create a similar war between all of them to bump them off.  All must fear the Maker when he gets in a weird mood.

I wouldnt be suprised if he did. After he ****s up the entire  world because a small group of people walked into his home and while he messed up humanity he also nearly wiped out out the dwarves with it. get one damnation and get the other one for free

Modifié par DKJaigen, 07 avril 2012 - 12:49 .

[Arppis]

Vit246 wrote...

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

Blew up the chantry, so yeah he did punish innocent people. No matter what you say, not all people in chantry want to see mages burn in hell fire. If he had blew up the Meredith's room or something it would have been ok for me.

But he didn't, he just murdered a lot of people who weren't even really involved with mage vs. templars. So yes, he is a monster.

[Silfren]

Arppis wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

Blew up the chantry, so yeah he did punish innocent people. No matter what you say, not all people in chantry want to see mages burn in hell fire. If he had blew up the Meredith's room or something it would have been ok for me.

But he didn't, he just murdered a lot of people who weren't even really involved with mage vs. templars. So yes, he is a monster.

Well, if all those people weren't actively trying to, y'know, change the Chantry and thereby the Circle system for the better, well then.  Part of the problem, and all that.

It keeps being said over and over that Anders should have targeted the templars in general, Meredith in particular, or their headquarters.  Problem here is that this idea, while snuggly-feely and more comfortable than the idea of blowing up the Chantry (which, I maintain, is NOT the little corner church of real life, not merely a site of spiritual community and worship, but actually a seat of considerable political power and military might), would not have achieved the goal Anders had set out to accomplish. 

People die in war.  That's all there is to it.  War is NEVER pretty, and good people die even when the bad guys are the target.  You simply cannot have a nice, tidy, non-messy war where innocents don't die.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Four posts, three posters, all failing to understand the point...... ::sigh::

We DO get your point.  We just don't happen to agree with it.  Given that you're the guy who tries to make up your own definitions for words in order to make your point (see: simulation, which does NOT mean what you think it does).

That a lot of people will view mages worse than before as a result of Anders' actions does not invalidate OUR point that it doesn't matter: can't make an omelette without cracking several eggs.

Circles as operated by the Chantry have existed for nearly a thousand years, along with the same amount of time spent indoctrinating the general population to fear mages out of hand as inherently cursed beings who have to be imprisoned for the sake of everyone.  This kind of culturally-ingrained ideology doesn't just evaporate over night.  

In an ideal situation, that the Chantry would willingly reform, the general population would STILL be experiencing culture shock and be supremely opposed to the idea simply because a thousand years of being told that mages are cursed beings that serve as demon bait is going to die extremely hard, even if the Chantry itself is the organization guiding the new perspective.  People tend not to deal well with even gradual change: a sudden about face isn't going to go over well at all.

But the situation we actually have is one wherein the Chantry is not changing, not even a little bit, such that if mages want things to change they have to force the issue.  (the events of Asunder are irrelevant from the perspective of mages during the events of DA2).

Andraste waged war on the Imperium.  She didn't write a strongly worded letter.  And no, her situation was not any different.  You can bet that there definitely were non-combatants in her war that hated Andraste and her armies and saw them as evil conquerors rather than spiritual saviors.

[Arppis]

Silfren wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

Blew up the chantry, so yeah he did punish innocent people. No matter what you say, not all people in chantry want to see mages burn in hell fire. If he had blew up the Meredith's room or something it would have been ok for me.

But he didn't, he just murdered a lot of people who weren't even really involved with mage vs. templars. So yes, he is a monster.

Well, if all those people weren't actively trying to, y'know, change the Chantry and thereby the Circle system for the better, well then.  Part of the problem, and all that.

It keeps being said over and over that Anders should have targeted the templars in general, Meredith in particular, or their headquarters.  Problem here is that this idea, while snuggly-feely and more comfortable than the idea of blowing up the Chantry (which, I maintain, is NOT the little corner church of real life, not merely a site of spiritual community and worship, but actually a seat of considerable political power and military might), would not have achieved the goal Anders had set out to accomplish. 

People die in war.  That's all there is to it.  War is NEVER pretty, and good people die even when the bad guys are the target.  You simply cannot have a nice, tidy, non-messy war where innocents don't die.

All Anders did was making the military might attack the mages while butchering bunch of people who didn't have anything to do with their little sandbox-fight. He could have blown templars up, then proceed to take down the Chantry in pretty bloodless coup.

But no, he just had to take the most monsterious route to his goal. Well, no matter I just knifed him. Stranglely enough, Meredith almost seems like more level headed person. Atleast she didn't kill the sideliners.

Modifié par Arppis, 07 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[Silfren]

Arppis wrote...

All Anders did was making the military might attack the mages while butchering bunch of people who didn't have anything to do with their little sandbox-fight. He could have blown templars up, then proceed to take down the Chantry in pretty bloodless coup.

But no, he just had to take the most monsterious route to his goal. Well, no matter I just knifed him. Stranglely enough, Meredith almost seems like more level headed person. Atleast she didn't kill the sideliners.

The results of Anders actions remain to be seen, actually.  There WILL be people who specifically support mage freedom and thereby stand against the Chantry, and there WILL be people who could care less about mage freedom but have an interest in seeing the Chantry stripped of its political and military power.

How many times does it have to be made clear that attacking the templars and their headquarters would not have had the same effect?  Anders didn't blow up the Chantry for the simple purpose of making himself as monstrous as possible, but because no other military target--and the Chantry IS a military target, make no mistake--would have had the same far-reaching effect. 

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

 THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. THEY ARE DRIVEN BY TWO DIFFERENT IDEALS. YES THEY MAY BOTH COMMIT MURDER AS A PRAGMATIC SOLUTION TO SERVE THEIR EXTREME AGENDAS BUT IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE THEM THE SAME. Understand?

Modifié par Gwindor The Witchhunter, 07 avril 2012 - 09:30 .

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

 LIKE HITLER AND STALIN ARE DIFFERENT.

[Adanu]

Arppis wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

No, he is not.

He did not "punish innocent people". There's no sense for Anders to do something like that. He targeted and killed people of a powerful faction precisely because they are guilty and directly responsible for a thousand-year long reign of abuses and injustices against a group of people being born what they are.

Blew up the chantry, so yeah he did punish innocent people. No matter what you say, not all people in chantry want to see mages burn in hell fire. If he had blew up the Meredith's room or something it would have been ok for me.

But he didn't, he just murdered a lot of people who weren't even really involved with mage vs. templars. So yes, he is a monster.

Well, if all those people weren't actively trying to, y'know, change the Chantry and thereby the Circle system for the better, well then.  Part of the problem, and all that.

It keeps being said over and over that Anders should have targeted the templars in general, Meredith in particular, or their headquarters.  Problem here is that this idea, while snuggly-feely and more comfortable than the idea of blowing up the Chantry (which, I maintain, is NOT the little corner church of real life, not merely a site of spiritual community and worship, but actually a seat of considerable political power and military might), would not have achieved the goal Anders had set out to accomplish. 

People die in war.  That's all there is to it.  War is NEVER pretty, and good people die even when the bad guys are the target.  You simply cannot have a nice, tidy, non-messy war where innocents don't die.

All Anders did was making the military might attack the mages while butchering bunch of people who didn't have anything to do with their little sandbox-fight. He could have blown templars up, then proceed to take down the Chantry in pretty bloodless coup.

But no, he just had to take the most monsterious route to his goal. Well, no matter I just knifed him. Stranglely enough, Meredith almost seems like more level headed person. Atleast she didn't kill the sideliners.

If you honestly thought that the Chantry was on the 'SIDELINE' when the GRAND CLERIC was the one Meredith was reporting to...

The chantry is a center of military and political power, no matter how much you delude yourself into thinking otherwise. The priests there were the power and they were doing nothing while Meredith turned Kirkwall into a shadow civil war battlefield.

[WhiteKnyght]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

 THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. THEY ARE DRIVEN BY TWO DIFFERENT IDEALS. YES THEY MAY BOTH COMMIT MURDER AS A PRAGMATIC SOLUTION TO SERVE THEIR EXTREME AGENDAS BUT IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE THEM THE SAME. Understand?

Anders murdered several people out his prejudice against the chantry, and to make a statement that mages should be free, while under the influence of a spirit.

Meredith murdered several people out of her prejudice against the mages, and to make a statement that mages should fear the templars, while under the influence of an evil idol.

Same actions, same motivations, just different sides.

They. are. the. same. Except for the fact that Meredith has girl parts.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 08 avril 2012 - 01:51 .

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

They can't be the same because their actions are driven by different things. Its like saying Stalin or Hitler are the same.

[Lazy Jer]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

They can't be the same because their actions are driven by different things. Its like saying Stalin or Hitler are the same.

I usually avoid commenting on real-world historical/political issues, but I just wanted to say...they ain't exactly polar opposites.

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

I wouldnt be suprised if he did. After he ****s up the entire  world because a small group of people walked into his home and while he messed up humanity he also nearly wiped out out the dwarves with it. get one damnation and get the other one for free

So in addition to blaming ancient Tevinter for being arrogant jerkwads we also have to blame the Maker for being an overreacting douch.  Sheesh.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

My friend, It is not about prejudicsm at all. Meredith's treatment of mages is due to her fanatical view that Magic is corrupt and that mages who think that magic is neither Benign or Malign are either already seduced by Magic or lieing to themselves. Anders's motives are clearly diffferent from this. He thinks Magic, since allowed in nature by the Maker, is part of Nature and can be used for good or evil. But take note that neither party takes full consideration of the history behind Magic and the ideals of The Chantry. In this I think Anders is the greater evil. Never liked him since DAO. I should've turned him over to the templars at that warehouse.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

Personally, i think Magic is about power not art. And is ultimately evil.

[Lazy Jer]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

My friend, It is not about prejudicsm at all. Meredith's treatment of mages is due to her fanatical view that Magic is corrupt and that mages who think that magic is neither Benign or Malign are either already seduced by Magic or lieing to themselves. Anders's motives are clearly diffferent from this. He thinks Magic, since allowed in nature by the Maker, is part of Nature and can be used for good or evil. But take note that neither party takes full consideration of the history behind Magic and the ideals of The Chantry. In this I think Anders is the greater evil. Never liked him since DAO. I should've turned him over to the templars at that warehouse.

Ordinarily I'd just make fun of you, but I like your outfit (Wade's dragonscale, right?) so I'll actually read your post and respond in kind.

Hmmm...as I read your post I wonder how you come to the conclusion, given the facts as you've stated them, that Anders is the greater evil.  Meredeth simply believes that all mages must be locked away to protect the people from them, and them from their own stupidity (direct Meredeth quote).  She regard magic as an inherent evil.

Anders, for all his willingness to kill innocent chantry-folk, does acknowledge that magic can be used for both great evil and greater good.  This view of magic as an either or, rather than an absolute offers a fairer view of mages in general.  I don't regard that as an inherent evil.

...plus he has funnier lines in DA:O-A.  I mean any apostate who allows himself to be caputured so he can hit on a female templar...I mean that's cahones.

[Urzon]

Silfren wrote...

Well, if all those people weren't actively trying to, y'know, change the Chantry and thereby the Circle system for the better, well then.  Part of the problem, and all that.

The whole "You are either with us, or against us" argument it what leads to horrible things. Anders used that thought process when he blew up the Chantry. Since the Grand Cleric wasn't supporting mages in their fight against Meredith, she (by default) must be supporting Meredith.  Meredith used it as well in her procecution of the mages. If you weren't supporting her in the fight against mages, you must be a mage sympathizer, and any action that she does towards you is your own fault.

And how would you know if some of the Chantry members didn't support the mages? With alot of the commoners, merchants, and nobles against Meredith in the end, it is only a given that some of the members of the Chantry were as well. Unless of course, you subscribe to the thought that, once you join an organinzation; you are thereby damned with all the past, present, and future crimes that organization might or might not have done. And since the Chantry supports the Circle, anyone that joins the Chantry must be supporting the Chantry's oppression of mages as well.

So, did Anders interview the Chantry members to get their thoughts on the plight of the mages in ActII? Just to make sure he could warn any ley sisters, priests, or mothers that might support the mages in their cause, that he was going to blow up the Chantry. No, of course not. Because he didn't care. He wanted them all to die in a horrible fiery explosion. He didn't want a single member of the Chantry to survive, because then they might have had the chance to get in Meredith's way to stop the RoA.

[DPSSOC]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

 THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. THEY ARE DRIVEN BY TWO DIFFERENT IDEALS. YES THEY MAY BOTH COMMIT MURDER AS A PRAGMATIC SOLUTION TO SERVE THEIR EXTREME AGENDAS BUT IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE THEM THE SAME. Understand?

That they differ in a single regard isn't enough.  They are both fanatically devoted to their ideals, they both refuse to compromise, they're both willing to kill innocent people to achieve their goals, they are both nuttier than a fruitcake, etc.  Ask yourself, if Anders had been in Meredith's position, and vice versa, would anything have been different?  If Anders had been the Knight Commander would he have been any better or worse than Meredith?  The only difference is what side they're on, and the sides aren't all that different.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

DPSSOC wrote...

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

 THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. THEY ARE DRIVEN BY TWO DIFFERENT IDEALS. YES THEY MAY BOTH COMMIT MURDER AS A PRAGMATIC SOLUTION TO SERVE THEIR EXTREME AGENDAS BUT IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE THEM THE SAME. Understand?

That they differ in a single regard isn't enough.  They are both fanatically devoted to their ideals, they both refuse to compromise, they're both willing to kill innocent people to achieve their goals, they are both nuttier than a fruitcake, etc.  Ask yourself, if Anders had been in Meredith's position, and vice versa, would anything have been different?  If Anders had been the Knight Commander would he have been any better or worse than Meredith?  The only difference is what side they're on, and the sides aren't all that different.

Anders beleives magic to be neither benign or malign. Meredith thinks magic is about power and hence inherently evil. They are both driven by different motives. They are different people in that way as well.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

My friend, It is not about prejudicsm at all. Meredith's treatment of mages is due to her fanatical view that Magic is corrupt and that mages who think that magic is neither Benign or Malign are either already seduced by Magic or lieing to themselves. Anders's motives are clearly diffferent from this. He thinks Magic, since allowed in nature by the Maker, is part of Nature and can be used for good or evil. But take note that neither party takes full consideration of the history behind Magic and the ideals of The Chantry. In this I think Anders is the greater evil. Never liked him since DAO. I should've turned him over to the templars at that warehouse.

Ordinarily I'd just make fun of you, but I like your outfit (Wade's dragonscale, right?) so I'll actually read your post and respond in kind.

Hmmm...as I read your post I wonder how you come to the conclusion, given the facts as you've stated them, that Anders is the greater evil.  Meredeth simply believes that all mages must be locked away to protect the people from them, and them from their own stupidity (direct Meredeth quote).  She regard magic as an inherent evil.

Anders, for all his willingness to kill innocent chantry-folk, does acknowledge that magic can be used for both great evil and greater good.  This view of magic as an either or, rather than an absolute offers a fairer view of mages in general.  I don't regard that as an inherent evil.

...plus he has funnier lines in DA:O-A.  I mean any apostate who allows himself to be caputured so he can hit on a female templar...I mean that's cahones.

IN REAL LIFE, YOU COULDN'T MAKE FUN OF ME ON YOUR BEST DAY. IN FACT THERE WOULD BE NOTHING YOU COULD DO TO ME.  Heheheheh. NO ITS NOT A WADE ARMOR ITS A FELON'S COAT.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

[quote]Lazy Jer wrote...


Hmmm...as I read your post I wonder how you come to the conclusion,


I don't have her exact words in hand but in DAO, Wynne explains that it is intrinsic of Magic to be potentially destructive and corruptive. Anders is opposed to The Circle because they govern mages according to their doctrines. Anders to me is no different from an obstinate "öld school" tevinter mage .

I hope he eventuallu is branded a heretic and executed in DA3.