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[Silfren]

Lynata wrote...

Silfren wrote...
[...] which generally means that most children are grafted into the Circle as apprentices around the age of five or so [...]

"Late childhood to early adolescence", actually, as per the books. Now, what exactly this means in years is somewhat open to interpretation - as per wikipedia, the current consensus would seem to be around 12-14.

Jowan was five or six, as was the Mage Warden, given that Jowan establishes himself specifically as five or six, and states that he came to the Circle a year before the Warden did.  This is from memory, but I'm fairly sure that the games, at least, establish this as the typical time when mages start manifesting their abilities, and that those who do so when older, are exceptions to that norm.  This "late childhood to early adolescence" may be something from the books, but it does seem to rather contradict the lore provided in the games.  I certainly never once got the impression from any of the games that children usually were taken to the Circle around the ages of 12-14, but that five was more typical of the average mage child.

If the books say otherwise, then it would seem to directly contradict the game lore.  Not that this doesn't already happen quite a lot. 

Modifié par Silfren, 10 avril 2012 - 07:31 .

[Silfren]

Lynata wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Um.  This is part of the lore of Origins.  You can also find it in the book, The Stolen Throne, and (I think) The Calling as well.  
The Chantry DID support Orlais's occupation of Ferelden, and Ferelden was a Chantry nation at the time.  It doesn't matter that it was not an Exalted March, because the fact remains that the occupation WAS supported by the Chantry.  And I think there is evidence actually that some Fereldens are bitter about this, though I'm not certain.

What form did this support take, precisely?

I'm fairly sure I've never noticed anything about this in Origins and the internet doesn't yield information about this subject either. I have the two novels you mentioned, but have yet to read them (started with Asunder as it's a more pressing topic; I've been trying to absorb background details for our ongoing P&P campaign).

Does it matter what "form" the support took?  You asserted that it couldn't have happened because the Chantry wouldn't support open war from one Andrastian nation against another, but this is patently false, because that is precisely what the Chantry did.  It openly supported the occupation of Ferelden by Orlais.  Probably because Orlais is the seat of Chantry power, and as two governing bodies the two are likely inextricably intertwined.

I THINK the game, DA:O addresses this to a minor extent, but it is directly addressed in the novel The Stolen Throne.  

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Probably because Orlais is the seat of Chantry power, and as two governing bodies the two are likely inextricably intertwined

They are. Emperor Kordilius Drakon I is the one that established the Chantry religion as we know it

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Probably because Orlais is the seat of Chantry power, and as two governing bodies the two are likely inextricably intertwined

They are. Emperor Kordilius Drakon I is the one that established the Chantry religion as we know it

Which basically means that Orlais and the Chantry generally operate as one.  Or at least they did before Justinia V went rogue, as it were. 

One of the things I'm looking forward to in DA3 is how the relationship between Orlais and the Chantry will go, given that Orlais is in the middle of its own civil war now, and the Chantry is surely going to fracture into those who support, and those who oppose, Justinia. 

Really eager to see how this pans out for Empress Celene, whether she'll form an alliance with the Justinia factino or the Lambert faction, or if something else will crop up.

[TEWR]

Lynata wrote...

The Orlesian invasion of Ferelden was not an Exalted March - were it otherwise, you can rest assured that the proud people of Ferelden would hold a grudge not only against Orlais but also their own religion. Not to mention that a "divinely justified" occupation would have been much more difficult to overcome than just a political one, considering that the Ferelden people are devout followers of this faith.

There are numerous sources stating that Emperor Drakon wanted to conquer neighboring countries so that the Chantry's influence could be spread.

They are deeply intertwined and the Chantry has supported Orlais' invasions of other nations from the get-go, as that in turn allows them to proselytize their religion.

Silfren wrote...

Which basically means that Orlais and the Chantry generally operate as one.  Or at least they did before Justinia V went rogue, as it were. 

One of the things I'm looking forward to in DA3 is how the relationship between Orlais and the Chantry will go, given that Orlais is in the middle of its own civil war now, and the Chantry is surely going to fracture into those who support, and those who oppose, Justinia. 

Really eager to see how this pans out for Empress Celene, whether she'll form an alliance with the Justinia factino or the Lambert faction, or if something else will crop up.

I imagine Celene would choose Justinia V over Lambert, assuming those are the only two factions we see. Simply to garner more popular support, if anything else. The Divine is essentially the Chantry. To support her means that she's supporting the Chantry, which may help more people rally to her side.

Which doesn't necessitate that she'll want the Chantry and Orlais to still be intertwined, given how Justinia V is of a different mindset then previous Divines. But it would be the best course of action, methinks. Support the Mages and support the Chantry in one move and gain more allies, rather then support the Templars.

I also imagine Ferelden will assist Celene, given how she's a proponent of Ferelden remaining independent and not being conquered again.

The real question is this: How will Loghain react to all of these events?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2012 - 08:06 .

[Always Alice]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Always Alice wrote...

The mage issue is far from inconsequential, I agree. And the idea of preaching that any one group is inherently sinful bothers me a lot. But for the average farmer in Thedas, how much do you think it matters to him? The only people who have any real idea of what goes on in Circles are mages, templars, and Chantry members who are stationed there. This is a horrible thing to say, but people don't really care unless it affects them personally (which is why so many non-mages are gung-ho with the idea of sending mages to Circles: because they're worried about what might happen to them if mages get out of control).  The things they care about? Food, community, shelter,security, all of which the Chantry provides. Why would someone feel the need to actively and loudly protest against something that doesn't concern them, especially when the Chantry helps them in other aspects of life?

The Chantry is is by far the largest organization in Thedas, with the vast majority or humans and elves considering themselves to be followers of it. You can't paint all these people with the same brush.
[/quote]

I think it matters a great deal to the average farmer, and it is ludicrous to attempt to imply otherwise, because it is specifically from the Chantry that the average farmer acquires his or her belief in Andrastianism, and by extension, the popular view of mages.  The general populace doesn't simply fear and hate mages on sight in spite of the Chantry, but because of it. 

I won't deny that people would likely be apt to fear mages without the Chantry.  Even if the Chantry did not exist, there would always be the occasion where a mage got blamed for someone's illness, or a particularly bad drought, etc.  However, the fact is, the Chantry does exist, and it is the primary source of anti-mage sentiment.  So it cannot be claimed that the Chantry is not where most people get their base opinion of mages. 

The Chantry is not the sole source of food, community, shelter, and security.  people could and would still have acess to those things without it.  However, the Chantry is the primary, if not sole, provider of anti-mage propaganda.[/quote]
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue here. I never disputed that the Chantry promotes anti-mage propoganda. All I'm saying is that the well-being of mages is not a primary concern to the avergage non-mage, and therefore would likely not play a role in whether someone supports the institution "in general," especially when said institution helps them in other areas of their life.



[quote]I don't like that either, but, to use your words, I try to focus on the Chantry "as it stands right NOW, in its current incarnation." Focusing on events that happened hundreds of years ago seems counterproductive.[/quote]


[quote]And yet the Chantry's entire justification for its stance on mages is for something that happened over nine centuries ago.  Funny, that.[/quote]
I...agree? I never said I supported their teachings abiout the inherent sin of mages/magic. In fact, I specifically stated in my previous post that "the idea of preaching that any one group is inherently sinful bothers me a lot."



[quote]The bad should always be examined, never overlooked. And it's hard to tell without concrete numbers but I tentatively say that yes, I do think the "good" outweighs the "bad" in this case. We don't have exact numbers, but mages are a minority in Thedas (which is only recently growing in numbers). The poor are a much, much larger group. I assume there have been more people cared for  by the Chantry throughout history than there are mages.[/quote]



[quote]What about the mages' families?  More hypothetically, what about all the people who could have been helped by magic if mages were free to live their lives among the communities that spawned them?  What about the fact that the Chantry's hardline stance has brought progress in certain fields to a standstill?  Someone else would have to provide the direct quotes, but I'm fairly sure I've read about the Chantry completely outlawing research that could lead to medical advancement, all on the grounds of the supposed inherent evil of blood magic.[/quote]
I agree that mages should play a bigger role in society..."serving man," as it were.



[quote]For every mage, there are children and parents to consider, not even considering grandparents, siblings, etc.  For every mage child taken from its family, you have grieving mothers and fathers (of course speaking to those who actually love their children and aren't repulsed by a Chantry-ingrained hatred of magic, as Jowan's mother was)...There are far more people affected by this than just the individual mages themselves.[/quote]
This is true, and a good point. But even when you count the affected families I'd say the poor would still outnumber them.


[quote]What about families who refuse to bear children lest their continue a magical bloodline? [/quote]
Choosing not to have a child is a valid life choice, especially when a person isn't emotionally prepared to handle a mage child.



[quote]Yes, I'm fully in favor of tearing the Chantry apart and leaving those poor hungry, naked, and orphaned souls out in the cold, if it means that mages will be free. [/quote]
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume here that you've never been homeless, hungry, and worrying about the life of your child due to said circumstances.



[quote]You would be wrong.  I have been both homeless and hungry and worried about any number of things.  I don't know whether you will believe this, but that is not my concern. You are overlooking the fact that the Chantry need not be the sole provider of those basic things.  Surely you are aware that in the real world, there are PLENTY of organizations besides religious bodies that work to fill these needs?[/quote]
I believe you. Sincerest apologies for my presumptions.

In my experience the worst part was the absolute uncertainty of it all, of not knowing who to turn to and what would happen. If you remove the Chantry then there is literally nowehere else for those people to go. Sure, in the real world charitable nonreligious organizations exist. But not in Thedas. If you remove the Chantry at the present then you remove what could possibly be the only thing standing between them and starvation.

 [quote]After all, helping those people does not require a Chantry, whereas the Chantry is directly responsible for the plight of mages.  
[/quote]
Please point me to these secular organizations in Thedas that are making it their perogative to shelter orphans, clothe the poor, feed the hungry, etc.

[quote]Irrelevant.  Lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, first off, and even so, that there are no organizations now does not mean that if the Chantry did not exist, these also would not. It is not unreasonable to point out that t there are none of these organizations because the Chantry fills that role.  There is no reason to believe that without the Chantry, an organization would not be formed to fill the void. Secondly, small communities do tend to help one another, out of basic decency, whether or not there are physical organizations dedicated to the cause.  Finally, I give you Lirena's Imports, in Kirkwall.  Clearly there are people who do try to step in and help the needy, even though there is a Chantry supposedly there to do it already.  
[/quote]
We're not dealing with hypothetical scenario's, we're dealing with the Chantry's charity work in the present. Sure, another organization might have formed to help people if the Chantry didn't exist, but it's pointless speculation. Like you said, there are small groups that could come together to help people (I can't believe I forgot Lirene's!),  but there is nothing to suggest that this new hypothetical organization would have as wide a reach and impact as the current Chantry does. There are chantries in every major Andrastean town, which not only care for people but also have their own protection (in the form of templars).   


[quote]And the Chantry provides one thing those organizations can't: spiritual guidance. [/quote]



[quote]Irrelevant to the question of physical needs of shelter, security, and such.  It didn't bear mention in that context.  [/quote]
I'd argue that spiritual needs are just as important, as faith can be what guides you and motivates you to get through the absolute darkest of times.

Modifié par Always Alice, 11 avril 2012 - 01:15 .

[TEWR]

Communities help each other as we see with Lirene's Imports, the Dalish look out for any Elves under their care, the Grey Wardens long ago helped take care of and feed refugees of the Fourth Blight by using Chateau Haine's underground lake and natural fortress, and a few other groups do generally the same thing (help the poor).

Poverty, funnily enough, is something the Chantry has endorsed. It was by their word that the Elves of the Dales -- after it was conquered -- group themselves together in slums.

The Chantry may preach that it helps the common man, but I've seen people like Slim Couldry do a helluva lot more to help the destitute and downtrodden then the Chantry has ever done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 avril 2012 - 02:07 .

[WhiteKnyght]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lynata wrote...

The Orlesian invasion of Ferelden was not an Exalted March - were it otherwise, you can rest assured that the proud people of Ferelden would hold a grudge not only against Orlais but also their own religion. Not to mention that a "divinely justified" occupation would have been much more difficult to overcome than just a political one, considering that the Ferelden people are devout followers of this faith.

There are numerous sources stating that Emperor Drakon wanted to conquer neighboring countries so that the Chantry's influence could be spread.

They are deeply intertwined and the Chantry has supported Orlais' invasions of other nations from the get-go, as that in turn allows them to proselytize their religion.

Silfren wrote...

Which basically means that Orlais and the Chantry generally operate as one.  Or at least they did before Justinia V went rogue, as it were. 

One of the things I'm looking forward to in DA3 is how the relationship between Orlais and the Chantry will go, given that Orlais is in the middle of its own civil war now, and the Chantry is surely going to fracture into those who support, and those who oppose, Justinia. 

Really eager to see how this pans out for Empress Celene, whether she'll form an alliance with the Justinia factino or the Lambert faction, or if something else will crop up.

I imagine Celene would choose Justinia V over Lambert, assuming those are the only two factions we see. Simply to garner more popular support, if anything else. The Divine is essentially the Chantry. To support her means that she's supporting the Chantry, which may help more people rally to her side.

Which doesn't necessitate that she'll want the Chantry and Orlais to still be intertwined, given how Justinia V is of a different mindset then previous Divines. But it would be the best course of action, methinks. Support the Mages and support the Chantry in one move and gain more allies, rather then support the Templars.

I also imagine Ferelden will assist Celene, given how she's a proponent of Ferelden remaining independent and not being conquered again.

The real question is this: How will Loghain react to all of these events?

The Grand Cleric in The Stolen Throne said the Orlesian occupation was the Maker's will and that Maric was wrong..... until Meghren scared her enough to fear for her life and ordered her to lie to the people. After that she switched sides and got the heck out of Denerim before Meggy could scratch his nose.

Also the fact that Justinia V is of a different mindset made many not like her. Arguably the Orlesian nobility and even some parts of the Chantry would support Lambert over her. Would being the operative word, because we all know Lambert didn't live past Asunder's epilogue.

What I think will happen in DA3 is that there will be another schism in the Chantry. Justinia will portray the true Circle as Pro-Mage, and the dissenters will be Anti-Mage. And they'll each have Templars and Seekers as they seem to have divided themselves by the time of Varric's interrogation.

[TEWR]

The Grand Cleric in The Stolen Throne said the Orlesian occupation was the Maker's will and that Maric was wrong..... until Meghren scared her enough to fear for her life and ordered her to lie to the people. After that she switched sides and got the heck out of Denerim before Meggy could scratch his nose.

I remember reading that somewhere on the wiki ages ago.

Bah, Maker's will my arse Ms. Grand Cleric. Orlais made it a point to sell Elves like cattle, abuse the people they were occupying, and so many other things.

That Orlesian woman in Denerim even says that Elves have it much worse in Orlais then in Ferelden.

Also the fact that Justinia V is of a different mindset made many not like her. Arguably the Orlesian nobility and even some parts of the Chantry would support Lambert over her. Would being the operative word, because we all know Lambert didn't live past Asunder's epilogue.

What I think will happen in DA3 is that there will be another schism in the Chantry. Justinia will portray the true Circle as Pro-Mage, and the dissenters will be Anti-Mage. And they'll each have Templars and Seekers as they seem to have divided themselves by the time of Varric's interrogation.

Agreed. Justinia V is obviously not going to have wholesale support, but she is going to have a fair amount of support and if Celene proclaims that she's supporting Justinia, that could help both of them out by giving them new allies.

[Always Alice]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall the denizens of Darktown commenting on the fact that the Chantry never comes around there. In fact, the person helping the sick and ailing in that area is the apostate Anders, to the point where Ferelden refugees are willing to kill Hawke and his companions in order to protect Anders.

I was speaking of the Chantry as a whole.

In fact, when Hawke brings up Alrik - who has been making mages tranquil illegally and sexually assaulting them - to Grand Cleric Elthina, she cuts the conversation short. Despite being Meredith's superior and the head of the local Chantry, she does nothing to prevent this situation from occuring again. I can see why people have a negative opinion about the Chantry, and the people affiliated with it.

She leaves because she is visibly upset, iirc. How do you know she "does nothing" to prevent the situation from occuring. After you bring up Alrik, he's long dead (also, does Hawke mention Alrik was raping them? It's been a while since I last played so I don't remember the specifics of the conversation). Sebastian mentions that Meredith doesn't listen to Elthina in Act III, which implies she's mentioning something to Meredith. The situation could have been handled better though, certainly.

The Chantry supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden that transpired mere decades prior to Origins. It doesn't seem like the Chantry has changed its stance on supporting Orlais invading other nations, and invoking the Maker's name to promote the Orlesian conquests.

And it clearly wasn't a decision all Chantry personnel agreed with, as we can see from the novel. The people who make those decisions are those in leadership positions, but are not necessarily indicative of the opinions of many, of even the majority,of its members. And Justinia clearly doesn't care about sucking up to Orlesian nobility.

We have poor and downtrodden people in Kirkwall saying that the Chantry never bothers to visit them.

Lynata already addressed this point so I won't get into it too much. The fact that the Kirkwall's chantry is negligent does not erase the people the organization as a whole has helped.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you don't know anyone who has chosen freedom and poverty over a life of oppression. I have family that left everything behind to leave the Batista regime (under General Fulgencio Batista Zaldívar) in Cuba. He was a dictator and military leader, and he ruled the island through puppet presidents. There are, indeed, people who would chose to leave their homes and their life savings for the chance at freedom.

And there was a dark point in my life where I would have given anything to have guarenteed food, shelter, clothing, community, and protection. We all have different priorities.

I'm not saying it's wrong to want freedom. My family, believe it or not, did in fact come to this country to escape an oppressive situation (not from Cuba though), but I doubt they would have came if it meant every homeless person and orphan would be sent back to live on the streets with nowhere to go.

Silfren is addressing that you don't need the Chantry of Andraste to help people; Hawke, for instance, could have used his wealth to help the downtrodden of Kirkwall.

Hawke also was once in their position, so it is natural for him to be more empathetic. It would be nice if every wealthy person feels the need to give, but I think we can all agree that that kind of assumption is a tall order, especially for those who are born wealthy and never even see the poorer sections of town.  

As for "spiritual guidance," we see where that guidance leads to, with Keili and Bethany thinking that their magic is a curse, and Andrastians in multiple games referring to mages as "cursed" because of their magical abilities. Keili even thinks that all mages deserve to die during "A Broken Circle." Cullen says that templars have "divine right" over mages in Act III. Wynne also talks about how Andrastians kill mages because they blame them for things they aren't responsible for - like droughts, or a baby not surviving. Mother Hannah in Redcliffe even needs to assure an Amell mage that a mob won't try to kill The Warden for being a mage.

The millennia of "spiritual guidance" of the Chantry preaching hatred and intolerance towards mages and magic has lead to a society that is intolerant towards mages, and sees people who don't worship the Maker as "heathens."

And this is truly tragic. But while there is a definite tendency to twist the Chant to reflect a negative opinion of magic, there is also room for hope as well. For a poor widow who is at her wit's end, knowing that "All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands, / From the lowest slaves / To the highest kings" could be enough to get her going another day. People are encouraged to live just lives, as "Those who steal from their brothers and sisters / Do harm to their livelihood and to their peace of mind. / Our Maker sees this with a heavy heart." This notion could also give a person whose family was killed by bandits or something comfort. And then there's this:  "The one who repents, who has faith/ Unshaken by the darkness of the world,/ She shall know true peace." Given the generally shoddy quality of life in Thedas, you can see how keeping these words close to heart can be important.

[Lynata]

Silfren wrote...
This is from memory, but I'm fairly sure that the games, at least, establish this as the typical time when mages start manifesting their abilities, and that those who do so when older, are exceptions to that norm.

In the Mage Origin? The youtube-playthrough I watched didn't say anything, and neither do the Codex entries.

Although I guess it's also worth pointing out that even if the sources differ, it may not have to mean that one is wrong. We need to keep in mind that the vast majority of what the game tells us is twisted by the individual perception of whatever character has this dialogue or whoever wrote that specific Codex entry.

It's why I generally favour devnotes, the comments of David Gaider or the information in the RPG books - they present us with actual unfiltered background, untouched by historical inaccuracies, bias or a simple lack of perspective. 

Silfren wrote...
Does it matter what "form" the support took?

Of course it does! There could be major differences in the form that support may take, from sending troops to simple propaganda. Or the potential dependance on perspective (some people would regard inactivity as passive support). 
If it was what The Grey Nayr alluded to, there's also the thing that a single Grand Cleric's opinion does not necessarily equal the opinion of the Chantry as a whole. 

But I'm also quite simply curious, as I have found zero information touching on this subject. Even the very extensive devnotes and RPG descriptions of both Ferelden and the Chantry never even hinted at this, so all I have right now is a "no that's not how it was!" from you. I'd like to know more, not just because of the debate but because I generally like absorbing any kind of information on a setting I like. I'm a lore nut.

So, I'd be grateful if you can give me even just a rough estimation on where this was talked about. I do have the novel here; I can look it up myself if I'd know where!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
There are numerous sources stating that Emperor Drakon wanted to conquer neighboring countries so that the Chantry's influence could be spread.
They are deeply intertwined and the Chantry has supported Orlais' invasions of other nations from the get-go, as that in turn allows them to proselytize their religion.

Naturally. In cases where the neighboring realms actually did have another religion, which isn't the case with Ferelden - hence my surprise. The Chantry was the institution crowning Ferelden's very first king, after all.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Communities help each other as we see with Lirene's Imports, the Dalish look out for any Elves under their care, the Grey Wardens long ago helped take care of and feed refugees of the Fourth Blight by using Chateau Haine's underground lake and natural fortress, and a few other groups do generally the same thing (help the poor).

You are talking about people with connections and resources, though. Beggars and orphans generally lack these, and all too often the only communities you'll find there are criminal bands of pickpockets and cutthroats who are forced to steal to have anything to eat.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
The Chantry may preach that it helps the common man, but I've seen people like Slim Couldry do a helluva lot more to help the destitute and downtrodden then the Chantry has ever done.

The Chantry doesn't exactly preach that itself helps the common man - though this is certainly a powerful PR act - but more importantly it preaches that man should help his fellow man. It is the voice of virtue telling people to give to the poor, which in itself is relatively important. Even if only a minority of the population truly takes these teachings to heart, even a single noble touched by this dogma will be able to do a lot of good. Here's one real life example of what I mean.

And of course you'll have little chance to actually witness the Chantry's daily business in the game. It's a game where you're supposed to venture through a nation at war and slay dragons and darkspawn! If we'd go by what we see in the game, the Chantry doesn't even hold mass. You'd have to look at the background descriptions to gauge a more accurate perspective. 

Modifié par Lynata, 11 avril 2012 - 02:34 .

[dragonflight288]

The Chantry doesn't exactly preach that itself helps the common man - though this is certainly a powerful PR act - but more importantly it preaches that man should help his fellow man. It is the voice of virtue telling people to give to the poor, which in itself is relatively important. Even if only a minority of the population truly takes these teachings to heart, even a single noble touched by this dogma will be able to do a lot of good. Here's one real life example of what I mean.

And of course you'll have little chance to actually witness the Chantry's daily business in the game. It's a game where you're supposed to venture through a nation at war and slay dragons and darkspawn! If we'd go by what we see in the game, the Chantry doesn't even hold mass. You'd have to look at the background descriptions to gauge a more accurate perspective.

The chantry also teaches that the chant must be spread to all four corners of the world to return the maker. And they are willing to force their religion upon unwilling groups to get that, and possibly destroy entire cultures to have their way. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs is a heathen, often that alone can be worthy of death. (Ser Varnell and Sister Petrice and how they dealt with the Qunari. The Chantry Sister praying for soldiers at Ostagar if you play a dwarf and outright tell her you don't believe in the Maker)

The Chantry also preaches that magic is a curse, even though the chant of light also calls it a gift. Gregoire called it both, and I respect the man, but most Revered Mothers tend to overlook that line, based on what I've seen of the game. And the Chantry as a whole doesn't care one bit about mages living conditions or personal comfort. They are just property they have divine right over.

And the chantry was the one who arranged elves to live in alienages.

[TEWR]

Lynata wrote...

The Chantry doesn't exactly preach that itself helps the common man - though this is certainly a powerful PR act - but more importantly it preaches that man should help his fellow man. It is the voice of virtue telling people to give to the poor, which in itself is relatively important. Even if only a minority of the population truly takes these teachings to heart, even a single noble touched by this dogma will be able to do a lot of good. Here's one real life example of what I mean.

But they do preach that they help the common man. They see mankind as sinful in their ways and in sore need of saving.

From History of the Chantry: Chapter 4, as written by Brother Genitivi

Where the Grey Wardens protect the world from the Blights, the Chantry protects mankind from itself

And as I stated earlier, it was by their word that the Elves be condemned into walled off slums. So I don't really view them as doing much to help society when their word can just as easily condemn it and has in the past.

There is a huge flaw in their logic: They say that by spreading the Chant to the four corners of the world, the Maker will return because they have shown that they can be trusted. Ignoring the fact that they're willing to destroy entire cultures to do such a thing, they're showing that they can be trusted by abusing other people, which is why the Maker left in the first place?

Like I said, flaw in logic. It's not something that faith has anything to do with either. They may not know the Maker exists which is what faith is about, but to abuse other people for a religion that wants to show humanity can be trusted has nothing to do with faith.

It's just pure arrogance and callous thinking.

Lynata wrote...

And of course you'll have little chance to actually witness the Chantry's daily business in the game. It's a game where you're supposed to venture through a nation at war and slay dragons and darkspawn! If we'd go by what we see in the game, the Chantry doesn't even hold mass. You'd have to look at the background descriptions to gauge a more accurate perspective.

Actually in DAO we see people praying and the Chantry accepting refugees from the Blight.

Which of course is nice and all. And they should do that. But outside of Blights -- see DAII -- I don't really get a sense that they do try and help people.

If they did, I doubt Elves would have such crappy lives as they do, where crimes can be committed against the Elves and no one will give a damn.

Of course, I never stated they don't help people earlier. I said that people who have no connection to the Chantry have done more for the poor of Thedas then the Chantry itself. Which is really a testament to the good deeds the Chantry does. I said that the Chantry doesn't come off as an institution that helps society enough.

It seems that the Chantry does very little to help people, but uses that very little to say they're helping the common man. And they'll maybe say they want to help people, but they refuse to do so aside from a few people (Darktown).

If the Chantry takes in one orphan but leaves 10 others to die, can they truly be said to have helped the people? I wouldn't say so.

Even the Mages' Collective has helped citizens of Ferelden by warning them of impending danger because they're related to mages and they've made problems disappear before the Chantry got involved. Two things that have increased the positive perception mages hold in the public's eye.

dragonflight266 wrote...

The chantry also teaches that the chant must be spread to all four corners of the world to return the maker. And they are willing to force their religion upon unwilling groups to get that, and possibly destroy entire cultures to have their way. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs is a heathen, often that alone can be worthy of death. (Ser Varnell and Sister Petrice and how they dealt with the Qunari. The Chantry Sister praying for soldiers at Ostagar if you play a dwarf and outright tell her you don't believe in the Maker)

Indeed, the Chant of Light actually explicitly states that non-believers will die for not believing in the Maker

Those who oppose thee
Shall know the wrath of heaven.
Field and forest shall burn,
The seas shall rise and devour them,
The wind shall tear their nations
From the face of the earth,
Lightning shall rain down from the sky,
They shall cry out to their false gods,
And find silence.

Of course, this is from Andraste's specific portion of the chant -- the Canticle of Andraste -- so it may have been originally uttered in regards to Tevinter. Which is good since Tevinter needed their asses sorely kicked, but I doubt the majority of the Chantry interprets it that way. They probably just see it as "Kill anyone who doesn't believe, forcibly convert the rest, make sandwich for me and go on living with no guilt"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 avril 2012 - 06:25 .

[Urzon]

The Chantry is hypocritical sometimes in the things it's teaching? That's what happens to religions or any big organizations that are ran by humans. The thoughts behind the ideas are great, but they slowly gets twisted as time passes by the thoughts and opinions of the followers.

It happens even more so when something as domineering as a religion gets involved with politics. Changes are made to cater to the popular opinion (or the most powerful). After the fall of the Dales, the Chantry and Orlais had to deal with: the defeated elves, a near ruined country after years of war, and an angry mob out for blood. What they should have done is let the elves return to the Dales after signing a treaty promising no acts of agressions against Orlais (with repercutions of total annihilation if they did), but they instead they catered to a angry mob and an Emperor that had conquest in mind.

Basically they pulled a Meredith. As bad is that is, thats how things worked back then, and they still do sometimes now. But that doesn't make it right.

The Chantry is horrible and flawed in somethings, but that only because it was made and ran by humans. It is not an entity onto itself, it is just a group of humans that is trying to do the best it can for the people, but like any group of people; there are going to be bad apples that are out for their own and abuse the system.

They try and set down good morals for the commuinty, but some of them are shaped by the bad history behind their creation. That is the fault of the Chantry's for not being proactive and looking at the consequences of their actions, but like anything that is old; it is set in its way and is hard to change.

The Chantry does alot of good for their community. They have helped the sick, the poor, the hunger, and the aimless. They have also do horrible things with the oppression of the elves and the mages. But to let their bad history and the few bad examples paint your opinion of the many MANY good people serving there, who's only goal in life in peace and helping other...

Well, that's just as bad as the templars judging all the mages against the Tevinter Imperium.

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

The Chantry is hypocritical sometimes in the things it's teaching? That's what happens to religions or any big organizations that are ran by humans.

Of course. I'm not contesting that nor saying it's a new revelation. Merely that for one to claim that the Chantry helps society they also need to understand that it's a pointless argument because the Chantry caused the suffering Elves have to endure currently and haven't done anything to try and fix it.

Urzon wrote...

The Chantry does alot of good for their community. They have helped the sick, the poor, the hunger, and the aimless. They have also do horrible things with the oppression of the elves and the mages. But to let their bad history and the few bad examples paint your opinion of the many MANY good people serving there, who's only goal in life in peace and helping other...

It was the Divine of that age though -- who is essentially the Chantry -- that made such an act against the Elves. And her decision went through, which means that the Chantry at that time largely if not entirely supported it.

I'm not judging them on their actions of the past, but merely using their actions of the past and their continuance as evidence that the Chantry hasn't evolved enough from their time as ****s. Contrast this to the Mages living in White Chantry Thedas, who have largely evolved from the nature Tevinter embodied. That Tevinter still commits those atrocities is a sin certainly, but since they belong to a different Chantry they are not indicative of the Mages elsewhere.

Even Sister Petrine, who penned the codex on Divine Renata's edict about the City Elves and can be met by the Warden, says it was a testament to the Chantry's charity.

If that's supposed to show how the Chantry is charitable, then the Chantry isn't all that good to society.

This is why I hope that Divine Justinia V will also try and make amends to the Elves as well as the Mages. And if I'm given the option to support her, I will.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 avril 2012 - 09:25 .

[DKJaigen]

And this is truly tragic. But while there is a definite tendency to
twist the Chant to reflect a negative opinion of magic, there is also
room for hope as well. For a poor widow who is at her wit's end, knowing
that "All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands, / From the lowest
slaves / To the highest kings" could be enough to get her going another
day. People are encouraged to live just lives, as "Those who steal from
their brothers and sisters / Do harm to their livelihood and to their
peace of mind. / Our Maker sees this with a heavy heart." This notion
could also give a person whose family was killed by bandits or something
comfort. And then there's this:  "The one who repents, who has faith/
Unshaken by the darkness of the world,/ She shall know true peace."
Given the generally shoddy quality of life in Thedas, you can see how
keeping these words close to heart can be important.

You just described the very foundation of religious slavery.  If people take comfort from a few words they will accept their lot. And as long they accept the longer any injustice can continue. Why do you think the elves have it so bad? because they accept it. Why do you think mages have it bad? because they untill recently accept it. Why do the peasants of orlais have it bad? because they accept it. And in all 3 cases the chantry is to blame.

The Chantry does alot of good for their community. They have helped
the sick, the poor, the hunger, and the aimless. They have also do
horrible things with the oppression of the elves and the mages. But to
let their bad history and the few bad examples paint your opinion of the
many MANY good people serving there, who's only goal in life in peace
and helping other...

Not really. They are making sure the common people have need of the chantry. If they are really wanted to help they should have improved the economy with their wealth . set up clinics or give elven children education that allowed them to get a proper job.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 11 avril 2012 - 10:19 .

[DPSSOC]

Silfren wrote...

I don't like that either, but, to use your words, I try to focus on the Chantry "as it stands right NOW, in its current incarnation." Focusing on events that happened hundreds of years ago seems counterproductive.

And yet the Chantry's entire justification for its stance on mages is for something that happened over nine centuries ago.  Funny, that.

And the on-going practices of the Tevinter Imperium in the present day.  You know all that slavery and blood magic and oppression that Andraste lead a rebellion against?  Yeah that never stopped.  The Chantry's stance is justified by the mere existence of the Imperium because, in the one nation mages were allowed freedom, they've established an oppressive, brutal mageocracy.

Not to mention every society that has free mages has them in positions of authority (Dalish Keepers, Chasind Shamans, Rivani Seers), so it's not hard for the Chantry to justify the stance; if mages are free they will put themselves in charge (because they have everywhere) and they're going to be evil and corrupt (Tevinter, the closest parallel to White Andrastian society).

You also ignore that there are mages like Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, Uldred, Connor, etc. who justify the Chantry's stance on a more day by day basis.

[TEWR]

Not to mention every society that has free mages has them in positions of authority (Dalish Keepers, Chasind Shamans, Rivani Seers), so it's not hard for the Chantry to justify the stance; if mages are free they will put themselves in charge (because they have everywhere) and they're going to be evil and corrupt (Tevinter, the closest parallel to White Andrastian society).

The Mages didn't put themselves in charge. It was an agreement established by their culture. The Dalish Mages guide the clans, but they do not have full reign over what happens in the clans. If a Hahren forbids something -- like a Keeper marrying a hunter -- then it carries equal weight to the Keeper's word and the Keeper respects it.

The Chasind were the ones to appoint their shamans to their positions within the tribes, not the Shamans themselves.

And the Rivaini Seers aren't in a position of authority. All they do is allow themselves to be possessed willingly. That they do such a thing and Rivain still stands means that there must be something to their arcane practices worth examining.

The culture a person is brought up with has a profound impact on how they live. This is true for the Dalish Keepers, the Rivaini Seers, and the Chasind Shamans.

It is also true for Tevinter. Tevinter has a history and a culture centered around violence at the hands of mages, sacrificing the unwilling for spells, and giving the Mages complete control over the society they live in.

The 3 aforementioned societies are quite different, based on what we know. Mages in White Chantry Thedas have been brought up with a culture that condemns blood magic and doesn't allow mages to be politically involved.

That will definitely affect how the Mages act in White Chantry Thedas as opposed to how the Magisters act in Tevinter, where they even collar their fellow Mages.

Funnily, the Chantry consists of non-mages with complete control over the society they live in as well as the Mages in that society.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 avril 2012 - 11:21 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That's because Meredith explicitly says that she is going to kill every single mage in the Circle of Kirkwall because of what Anders did. Her argument in trying to convince Hawke to side with her is Anders' destruction of the Circle of Kirkwall, no other reason.[/quote]

That is her argument, but we both know that it is not her motivation. I do find it likely that Meredith would have reacted differently had she not been "tainted" by her personal experiences with magic and mages. This includes her childhood just as much as Orsino's attitude, as much as the latter is a mutual issue. [/quote]

Her motivation is to kill every mage, irregardless of the fact that they are innocent of Anders' actions. She continues this same argument at the Gallows to Orsino: "The grand cleric is dead, killed by a mage. The people will demand retribution, and I will give it to them."

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall the denizens of Darktown commenting on the fact that the Chantry never comes around there.[/quote]

The city guard doesn't either. Darktown does not officially belong to Kirkwall and is overrun by criminals, toxic fume, apostate mages and illegal immigrants. That the Kirkwall in this time may lack Chantry sisters who don't like the idea of risking their life carrying supplies down there to get robbed by the Carta does not diminish the fact that the Chantry as an organization still fulfills this role throughout Thedas. [/quote]

It fulfilles the role of being the dominant religion, having its members view people from different religions as "heathens," thinking it needs to convert everyone, and outlawing the elven pantheon that is still worshipped by the Dalish.

Also, Aveline notes that Darktown is patrolled. She says, "The guards don't come here often enough." Darktown is like Gotham City, but that doesn't mean it isn't a part of Kirkwall officially. I can seen Aveline as a Ferelden version of Gotham's own Commissioner Gordan.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden that transpired mere decades prior to Origins. It doesn't seem like the Chantry has changed its stance on supporting Orlais invading other nations, and invoking the Maker's name to promote the Orlesian conquests.[/quote]

Where exactly have you read that the Chantry actively promotes and supports war against nations of its own faith? Given that this situation would be akin to a civil war within the ranks of the Chantry, I find this hard to believe. If I missed something, I'd be grateful for a source.

The Orlesian invasion of Ferelden was not an Exalted March - were it otherwise, you can rest assured that the proud people of Ferelden would hold a grudge not only against Orlais but also their own religion. Not to mention that a "divinely justified" occupation would have been much more difficult to overcome than just a political one, considering that the Ferelden people are devout followers of this faith. [/quote]

The Chantry's support of the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden is addressed in The Stolen Throne, which is why Maric and Loghain contemplate what to do about Ferelden's Chantry.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There are, indeed, people who would chose to leave their homes and their life savings for the chance at freedom.[/quote]

There are also people who would gladly sacrifice their freedom if they could actually have a home and life savings. It boils down to the amount of freedom/luxury perceived by the individual compared to how they think it is elsewhere. A pretty common phenomenon amongst mankind, actually, which also applies to many other aspects of life. We have found an adage for this; it goes "the grass is always greener on the other side". [/quote]

There will never be a consensus among every single person, but the point I was making was that there are people who would rather be free than live under an oppressive dictatorship.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren is addressing that you don't need the Chantry of Andraste to help people; Hawke, for instance, could have used his wealth to help the downtrodden of Kirkwall.[/quote]

And Always Alice is addressing that there is no other organization than the Chantry providing this service throughout the Andrastean realms. Pointing out that some rich nobles may voluntarily help out does not change this - but it does ignore that (a) said nobles are likely influenced by the virtues propagated by the Chantry and ( the extreme rarity of these individuals. [/quote]

Pointing out that the Chantry isn't the only source of aid that could come to these people was my point. Also, we see Lirene's Ferelden Imports helping the downtrodden and the impoverished in Kirkwall for years. We see Anders helping people at his clinic.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The millennia of "spiritual guidance" of the Chantry preaching hatred and intolerance towards mages and magic has lead to a society that is intolerant towards mages, and sees people who don't worship the Maker as "heathens."[/quote]

Individual zealots misinterpreting the Chant of Light does not change the contents of said Chant, nor does it make the Chantry as a whole "preach hatred". Intolerance and magic being a curse as well as a gift - yes. Out of necessity and both magic as well as mages posing a great threat to the populace if left uncontrolled, though I know you won't agree with it. [/quote]

When the Andrastian Chantry is the source of the negative view on mages and magic, it's not simply "individual zealots." We see this with Keili talking about how her Andrastian views make her view mages as "cursed," to the point where she thinks all mages deserve to die at the end of a templar sword of mercy. We see this when Circle mage Bethany is talking about how she thought so negatively about herself because of her Andrastian views, and how that formed her poor opinion of herself as a mage.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

In the end, this sentiment is way older than the Chantry itself, which makes me entertain the notion that distrust of mages would still be around even if the religion never existed. [/quote]

Given how some alternative societies view mages and magic differently, I'm not so sure about that. It certainly doesn't help when the dominant religion of the land is actively promoting that negative opinion about mages and magic in Andrastian society, certainly.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

Though one might certainly argue that the Chantry keeps "fanning the flames" and that hatred of mages might have died down in the centuries following Tevinter's fall, I regard it as likely that without the Chantry's control there would have simply been a higher amount of actual incidents keeping people's distrust awake. Chantry or no Chantry, people still get born as mages and accidentally set fire to their farms or turn into abominations on a killing spree - not to mention the lure of abuse as it exists in the Andrastean societies, evidenced in the recent developments in Tevinter. History does like to repeat itself, and the "modern man" is a greedy creature.

Of course, it is much easier to blame a singular organization such as the Chantry rather than individuals within it. This is also why the coming years within the setting will be so interesting - given that the mages are now their own singular (and free) organization as well, they will become just as liable to criticism concerning the flaws or actual evils committed by their individual members - like the recently promoted Adrian's betrayal - as the Chantry is now. I'm sure we will have some interesting debates in the future, too.  [/quote]

There will likely be a great deal to debate in the future. What are you hoping to accomplish in Dragon Age III? I assume you are going to side with the templars.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The real question is this: How will Loghain react to all of these events?

Dead men don't tell tales.  Bastard's deader'n dead in ALLLLLLL my playthroughs.  <_<

[Silfren]

Always Alice wrote...

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue here. I never disputed that the Chantry promotes anti-mage propoganda. All I'm saying is that the well-being of mages is not a primary concern to the avergage non-mage, and therefore would likely not play a role in whether someone supports the institution "in general," especially when said institution helps them in other areas of their life.

The well-being of mages may not matter to the average farmer, but that is in no small part directly because of Chantry propaganda.  The general populace DOES think about mages, a great deal, and largely in fear and contempt, because of what the Chantry has preached.  That was my point.

I...agree? I never said I supported their teachings abiout the inherent sin of mages/magic. In fact, I specifically stated in my previous post that "the idea of preaching that any one group is inherently sinful bothers me a lot."

I was stressing this point not because you disagreed, but because you expressed a belief that focusing on long-ago events was counter-productive.  I found it extremely ironic in light of the fact that the Chantry is using an event from nearly a millenium ago to justify its present oppression of mages.  

Choosing not to have a child is a valid life choice, especially when a person isn't emotionally prepared to handle a mage child.

Irrelevant.  My point was hypothesizing that many families known to carry magic in their bloodline may, due to Chantry-instilled fear and hate of mages, be strongly against having children lest those children be mages.  And of course there are those people who may refrain from having children not out of fear of those chidlren being mages, but because they don't want to face the prospect of having any children ripped away from them and raised in a prison cell.  Calling it a valid life choice completely disregards my point that this mindset exists specifically because of the Chantry's fearmongering doctrine, not because the families in question are genuinely not interested in having children.  It's just another example of the implicit, as well as explicit, harm that the Chantry causes by virtue of teaching that mages are inherently cursed.  

We're not dealing with hypothetical scenario's, we're dealing with the Chantry's charity work in the present. Sure, another organization might have formed to help people if the Chantry didn't exist, but it's pointless speculation. Like you said, there are small groups that could come together to help people (I can't believe I forgot Lirene's!),  but there is nothing to suggest that this new hypothetical organization would have as wide a reach and impact as the current Chantry does. There are chantries in every major Andrastean town, which not only care for people but also have their own protection (in the form of templars).

You are also overlooking the evidence we seem from Kirkwall that the Chantry is not always as altruistic as you seem to think.  Lobselvith, I believe, has pointed out there are ambient dialogues with NPCs that stress this. 

I'd argue that spiritual needs are just as important, as faith can be what guides you and motivates you to get through the absolute darkest of times.

And I simply think that the question of spiritual guidance warrants a separate discussion from the concrete, physical side of the debate.  I admit this is personal bias on my part.  Work on fulfilling basic needs of survival, such as sustenance, shelter, and the like, and worry about the spirit once those other things are assured.  When the bulk of the discussion has to do with the real, physical, tangible things the Chantry is responsible for, I really don't think spiritual guidance should weigh in on the equation.  

[Lynata]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But they do preach that they help the common man. They see mankind as sinful in their ways and in sore need of saving.[/quote]We were talking about charity for the poor.

Of course the Chantry sees itself as the Maker's vessel for the world's salvation. Different topic, though.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Like I said, flaw in logic. It's not something that faith has anything to do with either. They may not know the Maker exists which is what faith is about, but to abuse other people for a religion that wants to show humanity can be trusted has nothing to do with faith.[/quote]Of course it has - it's called extremism. "The ends justify the means", and when you are convinced that the Chant of Light (which really does contain a number of good advice for people) is the way to go, then you can be convinced that you just have to force it upon those who disagree. After all, you only want the best for all of the Maker's children.

Is it arrogant and self-righteous? Naturally. But to them it makes perfect sense. It's not so much a logical fallacy as it is a matter of perspective.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I said that people who have no connection to the Chantry have done more for the poor of Thedas then the Chantry itself. Which is really a testament to the good deeds the Chantry does. I said that the Chantry doesn't come off as an institution that helps society enough.[/quote]Whilst I'd agree that the Chantry doesn't do enough, I remain convinced that it is the primary supplier of compassion, be it direct (feeding the poor, providing shelter, armed protection) or indirect (influencing the people to help their fellows), simply because any alternatives are either too small or limit their support to people somehow connected to themselves.

The Mother who went to the elven alienage to conduct the marriage ceremony and pleaded with the nobles not to interfere (City Elf Origin) was a Chantry cleric as well, by the way, so it's not exactly like they don't care at all what happens there.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If the Chantry takes in one orphan but leaves 10 others to die, can they truly be said to have helped the people? I wouldn't say so.[/quote]Yet where do you take this ratio from?

[quote]Urzon wrote...
After the fall of the Dales, the Chantry and Orlais had to deal with: the defeated elves, a near ruined country after
years of war, and an angry mob out for blood. What they should have done is let the elves return to the Dales after signing a treaty promising no acts of agressions against Orlais (with repercutions of total annihilation if they did), but they instead they catered to a angry mob and an Emperor that had conquest in mind.[/quote]That being said, would the Chantry even had this kind of influence over the Emperor? From what it sounds like it was rather a situation where the Chantry negotiated the best possible option left open to the elves - the Dales were conquered, Orlais wanted to make sure they'd never be a thorn in its side again, and all the elves suddenly found themselves homeless.

In this light, you could say that pleading with the human cities to accept elven refugees is a good thing. Of course the Chantry has always held a certain responsibility towards this conflict, which may have influenced this decision: helping to conquer the Dales and then not caring for the survivors would go against the Chant of Light.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The 3 aforementioned societies are quite different, based on what we know. Mages in White Chantry Thedas have been brought up with a culture that condemns blood magic and doesn't allow mages to be politically involved. That will definitely affect how the Mages act in White Chantry Thedas as opposed to how the Magisters act in Tevinter, where they even collar their fellow Mages.[/quote]Whilst this may have been true once, I am under the impression that there was a period where mages in Tevinter were brought up with the very same teachings as those in the Andrastean nations.
Remember: the Black Divine hasn't always been there. The Chantry and the Circle in Tevinter once used to operate on the very same terms as those in Orlais and Ferelden, which is why I tend to think that mage freedom in the Andrastean nations has a high result to replicate what happened in Tevinter.

In fact, the Tevinter magisters used the very same arguments as those brought forth by the pro-mage faction on this forum ... before blood magic suddenly became popular again.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Her motivation is to kill every mage, irregardless of the fact that they are innocent of Anders' actions.[/quote]Exactly. Because the Kirkwall Circle has always been corrupted.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, Aveline notes that Darktown is patrolled. She says, "The guards don't come here often enough." Darktown is like Gotham City, but that doesn't mean it isn't a part of Kirkwall officially. I can seen Aveline as a Ferelden version of Gotham's own Commissioner Gordan.[/quote]"Gotham City" is an officiall recognized settlement with a dedicated police force. The comparison lacks in adequacy.

Kirkwall's city guard also patrols the areas outside of the city. Yet just like with Darktown, it doesn't show up "often enough".

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry's support of the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden is addressed in The Stolen Throne, which is why Maric and Loghain contemplate what to do about Ferelden's Chantry.[/quote]As mentioned in a previous post, I would like some more information rather than a vague remark. You can also name the chapter in which this occurs; I do have the novel here, just didn't get around reading it yet.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
When the Andrastian Chantry is the source of the negative view on mages and magic, it's not simply "individual zealots."[/quote]I would argue that it is the mages of Tevinter who are the source of the negative view on mages and magic, having influenced the perception of the general populace - and with it the Chantry. The latter was merely a reaction, after all.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
There will likely be a great deal to debate in the future. What are you hoping to accomplish in Dragon Age III? I assume you are going to side with the templars.[/quote]That might depend on what kind of templars we'd be allowed to ally with, if any. After reading Asunder, I can only hope that there are any templars left loyal to the Chantry instead of the Seekers.

It puts me in a tight spot, actually. The templar faction as commanded by Lambert seems to represent the worst of their order(s) - conviction clouded by fear, and sheer brutality instead of stern yet compassionate vigilance. The current mages definitively have the more charismatic position, yet they already have a couple bad eggs in the casket and overall I am convinced that on the long run it can only lead to trouble. Even so, they seem to be the better option, given the alternative.

I'll probably just play a character who doesn't care for "later" but only for the "now", like my City Elf rogue in Origins. The characters we play don't have to conform to what we as players believe, anyways. They only have to feel entertaining. That's the whole point of roleplaying.

All in all, I'm still going to miss the Circle system. It was deliciously controversial. The best thing that could happen (imho) would be a "forced reset" back to its original ideals rather than the abomination it had become in the recent years. The current split definitively has the potential to basically serve as a "purifying" event separating the corrupt templars from those believing in the order's official purpose. Yet this is likely too much to hope for.
Even though a surprisingly large number of mages was willing to submit to Chantry authority after their violent escape, I don't think as a faction they will go back just like that anymore. Unless the mages are going to splinter into two groups as well - those willing to use all necessary means to preserve their freedom (and, potentially, their superiority), and those who will draw the line somewhere - with the latter group reuniting with the Chantry and whatever remains of its templars.

The Divine having direcly helped the mages to escape certainly will count for something, and Evangeline would make an excellent leader of a reformed templar order. Alas - that would probably be too much of a happy end. At least an "all out fight" that will end with one side having complete dominance over the other has a lot of potential for the future of the setting.

Modifié par Lynata, 11 avril 2012 - 08:03 .

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I don't like that either, but, to use your words, I try to focus on the Chantry "as it stands right NOW, in its current incarnation." Focusing on events that happened hundreds of years ago seems counterproductive.

And yet the Chantry's entire justification for its stance on mages is for something that happened over nine centuries ago.  Funny, that.

And the on-going practices of the Tevinter Imperium in the present day.  You know all that slavery and blood magic and oppression that Andraste lead a rebellion against?  Yeah that never stopped.  The Chantry's stance is justified by the mere existence of the Imperium because, in the one nation mages were allowed freedom, they've established an oppressive, brutal mageocracy.

Not to mention every society that has free mages has them in positions of authority (Dalish Keepers, Chasind Shamans, Rivani Seers), so it's not hard for the Chantry to justify the stance; if mages are free they will put themselves in charge (because they have everywhere) and they're going to be evil and corrupt (Tevinter, the closest parallel to White Andrastian society).

You also ignore that there are mages like Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, Uldred, Connor, etc. who justify the Chantry's stance on a more day by day basis.

No, it is not justified.  Tevinter is a separate place with a different culture and history.  It does not follow that because the Tevinter Imperium had, and later returned to, an oppressive, slave-driven magocracy, that any other society with free mages will inevitably follow suit.  

Mages being in positions of authority does not equate to mages being oppressive, slave-owning, blood-magic using, dictatorial tyrants.  Unless you can provide evidence that the Dalish, Chasind, and Rivaini peoples all have societies comparable to the aforementioned slave-owning, blood-magic using, oppressive society of Tevinter, this is a ridiculous non-argument. 

Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, and Uldred do not justify the Chantry's stance.  They justify the need for a well-trained and readily positioned magi police force in every major settlement, but they do NOT justify locking mages away under the current system.  And Connor is exactly proof of just why the current system is so badly broken.  Had his mother not been a) humiliated by the mere thought of being mother to a mage child, and not been terrified of losing her son forever, then she would not have felt the need to hide her son from the Chantry and seek out an illegal apostate to train him in unsafe conditions.  

There IS an argument to be made that many mages who turn into power-hungry jerkwads do so out of rebellion for having been taught their whole lives that they are evil and cursed and have to be locked away for everyone else's wellbeing.  That kind of environment is tailor-made to create the very monsters it purports to protect against.  It could very easily be argued that many of those people would never turn out that way if they were allowed to live freely as the rest of society, and thus have the familial and communal connections that most people take for granted.  

Modifié par Silfren, 11 avril 2012 - 09:35 .

[Davillo]

I play Anders as the main character

Modifié par Davillo, 11 avril 2012 - 08:32 .

[Silfren]

Lynata wrote...

Whilst this may have been true once, I am under the impression that there was a period where mages in Tevinter were brought up with the very same teachings as those in the Andrastean nations.
Remember: the Black Divine hasn't always been there. The Chantry and the Circle in Tevinter once used to operate on the very same terms as those in Orlais and Ferelden, which is why I tend to think that mage freedom in the Andrastean nations has a high result to replicate what happened in Tevinter.

We only really know that the Tevinter Archon who called for Andraste's execution repented and became her first Tevinter convert.  Yes, it does stand to reason that in its very earliest stage, the beliefs of Tevinter were the same as Andrastian teachings elsewhere.  

But it does NOT follow that early Andrastian teachings are anything like what they became later, whether in Tevinter or elsewhere in Thedas.  Witness the fact that we have evidence of a minimum of four Andrastian sects: Tevinter's, the mainstream of the rest of Thedas, the more patriarchal form seen in the village of Haven, and at least one sect that saw Andraste's mortal husband as blessed for returning her to the Maker, rather than a cursed betrayer.  It is a mistake to assume that the way the Chantry is taught in Thedas now is anything like it was when Andraste was alive, and in the immediate period following her death.  Remember, there is, after all, a debate as to whether she was divine or just a mortal woman, and even whether or not she was a regular human or an exceptionally powerful mage.  

Anyway, even if it were true that at one point the doctrines of Andrastianism as taught in Tevinter were precisely the same as Andrastian doctrine elsewhere, you cannot underestimate the power of history, tradition, and culture.  It was easy for Tevinter to re-interpret Andrastian teachings to re-incorporate its previous systems because those structures were already in place and part of that society's cultural fabric. 

This is one of the reasons why I am damned eager to either see Tevinter first hand, or play as a Tevinter PC.  I want to see exactly how the Andrastian faith is different in the Tevinter context.