2008 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Note:  I haven't read all the posts in this thread before dropping in my two cents.  If you wonder why...look at the name.

The OP has a point in my opinion. 

So there you have it.  Two sides, one coin.

BTW...I am a mage supporter inspite of Anders not because of him.

Do you think that it matters that Meredith is willing to kill to maintain an oppressive regime and Anders kills to overthrow it?

And what would be built on top of the ruins? A new Tevinter?

No, clearly that is not a good system. 

Any number of threads have posts with any number of possible better ways to train mages and safeguard the populace.

For me, the main point is that if something is as glaringly wrong as the Circle system, then it is ok to fight against it.  Even if there is collateral damage and even if there are possible outcomes that aren't good either.

So if mages became slave lords, yo'd just shrug and say, "well, what can ya do? All those people deserve it!"

They certainly don't deserve the peace and freedom they enjoy currently, when it is founded on the slavery of others.

Saying mages should be free to live their own lives is not the same thing as endorsing oppressive fascist mage rule.

If mages become oppressive dictators, they can be dealt with then, but it still won't justify the current system. Nothing justifies imprisoning people for something they might do.

[GodWood]

Lol mage supporters.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Plaintiff wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Note:  I haven't read all the posts in this thread before dropping in my two cents.  If you wonder why...look at the name.

The OP has a point in my opinion. 

So there you have it.  Two sides, one coin.

BTW...I am a mage supporter inspite of Anders not because of him.

Do you think that it matters that Meredith is willing to kill to maintain an oppressive regime and Anders kills to overthrow it?

And what would be built on top of the ruins? A new Tevinter?

No, clearly that is not a good system. 

Any number of threads have posts with any number of possible better ways to train mages and safeguard the populace.

For me, the main point is that if something is as glaringly wrong as the Circle system, then it is ok to fight against it.  Even if there is collateral damage and even if there are possible outcomes that aren't good either.

So if mages became slave lords, yo'd just shrug and say, "well, what can ya do? All those people deserve it!"

They certainly don't deserve the peace and freedom they enjoy currently, when it is founded on the slavery of others.

Saying mages should be free to live their own lives is not the same thing as endorsing oppressive fascist mage rule.

If mages become oppressive dictators, they can be dealt with then, but it still won't justify the current system. Nothing justifies imprisoning people for something they might do.

If mages can't fight for their freedom without becoming oppressive dictators in turn, perhaps they don't deserve the freedom they fought for. I say this as a supporter of mage rights in general.

[Plaintiff]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

If mages can't fight for their freedom without becoming oppressive dictators in turn, perhaps they don't deserve the freedom they fought for. I say this as a supporter of mage rights in general.

You're the one assuming that they can't, despite the fact that they haven't oppressed anybody yet. Actually having some measure of power is a prerequisite of oppressing people.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 janvier 2012 - 08:10 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Plaintiff wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Note:  I haven't read all the posts in this thread before dropping in my two cents.  If you wonder why...look at the name.

The OP has a point in my opinion. 

So there you have it.  Two sides, one coin.

BTW...I am a mage supporter inspite of Anders not because of him.

Do you think that it matters that Meredith is willing to kill to maintain an oppressive regime and Anders kills to overthrow it?

And what would be built on top of the ruins? A new Tevinter?

No, clearly that is not a good system. 

Any number of threads have posts with any number of possible better ways to train mages and safeguard the populace.

For me, the main point is that if something is as glaringly wrong as the Circle system, then it is ok to fight against it.  Even if there is collateral damage and even if there are possible outcomes that aren't good either.

So if mages became slave lords, yo'd just shrug and say, "well, what can ya do? All those people deserve it!"

They certainly don't deserve the peace and freedom they enjoy currently, when it is founded on the slavery of others.

Saying mages should be free to live their own lives is not the same thing as endorsing oppressive fascist mage rule.

If mages become oppressive dictators, they can be dealt with then, but it still won't justify the current system. Nothing justifies imprisoning people for something they might do.

If mages can't fight for their freedom without becoming oppressive dictators in turn, perhaps they don't deserve the freedom they fought for. I say this as a supporter of mage rights in general.

You're the one assuming that they can't, despite the fact that they haven't oppressed anybody yet. Actually having some measure of power is a prerequisite of oppressing people.

Considering most mages can obtain the power to dominate minds via a Faustian pact and through casually slitting their wrists, I'd say they do have some measure of power.

[Plaintiff]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Considering most mages can obtain the power to dominate minds via a Faustian pact and through casually slitting their wrists, I'd say they do have some measure of power.

Firstly, anybody with half a brain could tell that I wasn't talking about magic.

Secondly, this power you think they have has yet to save them from persecution, despite the fact that every templar we've ever seen was spectacularly incompetent at actually containing or fighting mages and always needed outside help.

The minute any half-competent individual opposes them, mages and blood mages alike fall like a house of cards. So no, they do not have any power worth mentioning. The only time magic or mages has done any significant damage is when it was a) in the hands of individuals who already had a position of power in non-mage society or when it was used in secet and left unopposed for a considerable length of time.

The single exception is Anders' fireworks display, and even then, we have no idea how much time it took to prepare, it's clearly not widespread knowledge and the same result, if not the spectacular visual effects, could be acheived with a sufficient amount of Qunari Blackpowder or dwarven explosives. 

[Gibb_Shepard]

Well considering every circle in Thedas has now rebelled and joined a future war effort, i don't think they can be described as falling house cards. I'd go as far to say that the mages hold the most power in Thedas at this point in time.

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Well considering every circle in Thedas has now rebelled and joined a future war effort, i don't think they can be described as falling house cards. I'd go as far to say that the mages hold the most power in Thedas at this point in time.

Only because outside factors have converged to create a circumstance where breaking away was possible.

Magic on its own won't win them the war.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Well considering every circle in Thedas has now rebelled and joined a future war effort, i don't think they can be described as falling house cards. I'd go as far to say that the mages hold the most power in Thedas at this point in time.

Only because outside factors have converged to create a circumstance where breaking away was possible.

Magic on its own won't win them the war.

The Divine certainly helped the matter, but you don't give the mages enough credit.

And when i say power i don't mean magic, i mean the bargaining power they now have. If anyone ever wants peace the mages will have to be heard; something that wasn't possible before.

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...


Do you think that it matters that Meredith is willing to kill to maintain an oppressive regime and Anders kills to overthrow it?

Not really.  The point is that they both get fanaical enough about their goals that they fail to acknowledge the morality of their actions.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...


Do you think that it matters that Meredith is willing to kill to maintain an oppressive regime and Anders kills to overthrow it?

Not really.  The point is that they both get fanaical enough about their goals that they fail to acknowledge the morality of their actions.

Anders doesn't claim that his actions were morally right. He claims that they are necessary.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...


Do you think that it matters that Meredith is willing to kill to maintain an oppressive regime and Anders kills to overthrow it?

Not really.  The point is that they both get fanaical enough about their goals that they fail to acknowledge the morality of their actions.

I'm a bit surprised actually at how many people seem to think that an oppressed minority should just tough it out (for 900 years or more?) if doing something to free themselves means that people will die.  Bad things happen during social upheaval, and sometimes the end result is as bad or worse, but that possibility doesn't mean the status quo must remain.

Also, saying an enslaved minority has the right to kill in order to be free isn't the same as saying anyone with a cause is morally entitled to kill for it.  I could say everyone has the right to have cookies for breakfast without thinking the cereal manufacturers should all be slaughtered.  I do think that 900 years of subjugation is quite enough. 

Anders working for 7 years on peaceful protests and underground activities shows that his first inclination was not to violence.  Meredith and her ilk used intimidation and violence against the mages at least as far back as Hawke's first arrival at Kirkwall when Anders was still just an apostate healer in Darktown.

I think what someone is fighting for does matter.  What alternatives they try before resorting to violence matters too.  Reluctantly using violence to free an enslaved population is not the same as gleefully using violence to maintain their slavery.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...


Anders doesn't claim that his actions were morally right. He claims that they are necessary.

Be that as it may, his actions were, in my opinion, still highly immoral.  Him acknowledging that doesn't really help, especially when the necessity of his actions is pretty questionable as well, again my opinion.  The Circle is F'ed up, sure, but that doesn't justify mass murder of hundreds of innocent people to create strife.  Especially when in the end all he's really doing is disrupting things in Kirkwall.

GavrielKay wrote...

I'm a bit surprised actually at how many people seem to think that an oppressed minority should just tough it out (for 900 years or more?) if doing something to free themselves means that people will die.  Bad things happen during social upheaval, and sometimes the end result is as bad or worse, but that possibility doesn't mean the status quo must remain.

Also, saying an enslaved minority has the right to kill in order to be free isn't the same as saying anyone with a cause is morally entitled to kill for it.  I could say everyone has the right to have cookies for breakfast without thinking the cereal manufacturers should all be slaughtered.  I do think that 900 years of subjugation is quite enough. 

Anders working for 7 years on peaceful protests and underground activities shows that his first inclination was not to violence.  Meredith and her ilk used intimidation and violence against the mages at least as far back as Hawke's first arrival at Kirkwall when Anders was still just an apostate healer in Darktown.

I think what someone is fighting for does matter.  What alternatives they try before resorting to violence matters too.  Reluctantly using violence to free an enslaved population is not the same as gleefully using violence to maintain their slavery.

In this case, however, most of the people that died to create this social upheaval were third party people just going about their daily lives.  The worshipers who were in the church at the time, the Chanters, sisters and brothers of Kirkwall's Chantry.  Even Grand Cleric Elthina, in my opinion (bolded and itaicised because I know there are decenting opinions), doesn't deserve to die for this.

Lastly, I realize that the Circle in it's format circa DA 2 was horrid.  Particularly in Kirkwall.  Children were taken from their parents an everything they knew at a young age, forced into what is essentially a maximum security prision (albeit a nice one in Ferelden's case...or at least it used to be).  Depending on who's running the place and what instructors they get they may end up being fed a line about how they're curse and marked by the maker as something wicked.  I can't imagine growing up with something like that.  I believe that the Circle of Magi's treatment of it's charges needs some fundemental changes.  That does not justify, however, the blowing up of a church, any more then the Qunari were justified in sacking an entire city just to find one lousy book (...let's hope I didn't just stir up an off-topic hornets nest with that comment...heh.)  Especially considering the very valid point that that explosion probably took out any building within a couple of miles of the Ex-Chantry, causing some people to have a heck of a lot more rubble with that morning's oatmeal then they'd care to have.

[Quething]

Lazy Jer wrote...
In this case, however, most of the people that died to create this social upheaval were third party people just going about their daily lives.

Precisely.

Yes, at some point an oppressed minority has the right to fight back.

Against their actual oppressors.

Never against the innocent. No one ever has right or justification to slaughter innocent bystanders.

[bleetman]

Not to mention Anders wasn't particularly "striking a blow against his oppressors". If he'd wanted to do that, he could've just smuggled the thing into/under the Templar barracks. It wouldn't have been that hard, and would've actually have made sense in requiring Hawke as a distraction rather than the Chantry which he can effectively walk into at any time.

Blowing up the Chantry wasn't "striking a blow for mage freedom". It was a means of getting rid of that pesky Grand Cleric who kept saying no to Meredith whenever she wanted to annul the circle for no particular reason. Rile up the Templars. Show everyone what they're really like. Force those circle mages into fighting back whether they like it or not, because Anders thinks they ought to.

[Gervaise]

Have just been replaying the game again, and for only the second time taking Meredith side at the beginning of Act 3, so got the conversation about her sister. Listening to it more carefully this time, I was struck by the fact that she admits life in the Circle is tough and the reason her family didn't hand over her sister is because they thought she wouldn't cope with it. And on the Grand Cleric front, Meredith is complaining that Elthina has been got at by the mages because she is backing Orsino not to allow Meredith greater investigation into what the mages are up to in the Circle. I must admit it is a puzzle to me how this working of the Kirkwall Circle is depicted because on one hand we are meant to have templars raping and beating mages, about which Elthina is acused of doing nothing (not within the game but on these boards) and yet on the other hand we have Elthina accused of doing too much (by Meredith) which is sort of borne out at the end when Orsino once again intends appealing to Elthina. It would appear therefore that Elthina is doing once thing in public and something else behind the scenes. Even so, I still find it hard to understand how Meredith is able to strong arm the city and send her hit squads into people's homes, where she is acting outside the authority of her job, yet is incapable of simply conducting a search in the Circle, whether the First Enchanter likes it or not, where she is meant to have control.

I would also point out that the reason the mages have been oppressed for around 900 years is probably because the Circle operates a two tier system. If you are a noble you can continue to keep contact with your family, your family can bribe for you to have better treatment, hand picked templars to look after you, sponsor you to position of First Enchanter and then arrange for you to "retire" to your country estate, or alternatively I am sure, get some nice posting somewhere like Ferelden or even Tevinter (the locals might not like you much but you do get to walk around unrestricted and being a noble the art of diplomatic intreigue should come naturally). Also many nobles probably don't even let their kids go to the Circle. Isolde was said to be an extremely pious woman but thought nothing wrong in keeping her son at home - the tutor was needed to teach him to hide his magic from Eamon, who would have felt duty bound to turn him in. Isolde was from Orlais and it wouldn't surprise me to find many nobles thought like she did. Even Varric says that Hawke can make himself wealthy enough so that no one can touch him, which again suggests bribery can go a long way. Obviously the money didn't come quick enough for Bethany. Meredith will send her hit squad to punish poor people in Lowtown for helping their relatives, yet the Emile's father is still able to send a letter to Meredith appealing for clemency for his son, despite the fact she knows they helped him, a letter from Gascard du Puis complaining about Emerich is sufficient for Meredith to call him off, despite the fact that Emerich suspected, correctly, that blood magic was involved and of course Isolde doesn't seem to have suffered any repercusions over Connor.

Fenris picked up on this when he said the reason things changed in Tevinter, because the nobility were all old established mage lines, so essentially took over the Circles. He says unlike the rest of Thedas where you are controlling peasants. Anders had the right idea when he was running a free clinic for the poor and that probably did more for mage freedom than his bomb. It won't help anyone if mage freedom just means the mage children of nobles get a chance to help their families rule the roost l
legitimately, while the mages of poor families, particularly elves, continue to have to deal with oppression and prejudice and still end up turning into abominations because of ill treatment.

The whole social system needs a complete overhaul since that too has been static for the best part of 1000 years.

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
In this case, however, most of the people that died to create this social upheaval were third party people just going about their daily lives.

Precisely.

Yes, at some point an oppressed minority has the right to fight back.

Against their actual oppressors.

Never against the innocent. No one ever has right or justification to slaughter innocent bystanders.

Slight problem: innocent deaths are more or less inevitable in war.

Even so, I still find it hard to understand how Meredith is able to strong arm the city and send her hit squads into people's homes, where she is acting outside the authority of her job, yet is incapable of simply conducting a search in the Circle, whether the First Enchanter likes it or not, where she is meant to have control.

Orsino can't block her when she's screwing around with the city outside the Gallows, but he retains some power in the Gallows itself.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 janvier 2012 - 12:30 .

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...

In this case, however, most of the people that died to create this social upheaval were third party people just going about their daily lives.  The worshipers who were in the church at the time, the Chanters, sisters and brothers of Kirkwall's Chantry.  Even Grand Cleric Elthina, in my opinion (bolded and itaicised because I know there are decenting opinions), doesn't deserve to die for this.

First, Elthina was warned that violence was probably coming and was urged to leave Kirkwall (in the DLC that I don't actually have, but have read tons about on this forum).  If she was still allowing various innocents to hide out in a place she'd been told wasn't safe...  well, that's kinda too bad.

Second, we don't see the site of the explosion.  Any real life explosion like that would have taken out a city block, but this is a fantasy game.  There's no reason to think it is impossible for Anders' bomb to have taken out the Chantry and nothing else.  Just a guess, but so is anything about dozens of orphans in the Chantry, as we aren't shown any of it.

Third, as has been said a zillion times already, the Chantry is not the same kind of organization that we typically think of as a church in modern times.  The Chantry has a military arm, and exerts some control over it.  The Chantry preaches the "gospel" that convinces the populace that it is both right and necessary to lock up mages.  Obviously opinions on this vary, but I do think the Chantry is the heart of the problem and makes itself a target.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 janvier 2012 - 12:32 .

[Heimdall]

@Gavrielkay

Elthina was warned that rogue Mage factions might target her in the city of Kirkwall. It was implied that she might be assassinated, she nor the Divine have any reason to expect a bomb. The chantry is a place of worship, the faithful naturally go there to seek sanctuary and guidance. The faithful including all the people of Kirkwall.

It makes more sense to assume an explosion is an explosion than to assume some odd magical containment to the blast. Anders was quite willing to kill innocents, so I doubt he'd bother.

The Chantry stance on mages is doctrine extrapolated from the Chant of Light. As attested to by Elthina and the Divine herself, some in the chantry don't necessarily agree with it and intend to make something more beneficial for the mages. As seen in Asunder, the chantry's level of control over the Templars and Seekers is less direct than we have previously been led to believe.

[bleetman]

Xilizhra wrote...

Slight problem: innocent deaths are more or less inevitable in war.

So I suppose no steps should be taken to avoid them, then.

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...

First, Elthina was warned that violence was probably coming and was urged to leave Kirkwall (in the DLC that I don't actually have, but have read tons about on this forum).  If she was still allowing various innocents to hide out in a place she'd been told wasn't safe...  well, that's kinda too bad.

Second, we don't see the site of the explosion.  Any real life explosion like that would have taken out a city block, but this is a fantasy game.  There's no reason to think it is impossible for Anders' bomb to have taken out the Chantry and nothing else.  Just a guess, but so is anything about dozens of orphans in the Chantry, as we aren't shown any of it.

Third, as has been said a zillion times already, the Chantry is not the same kind of organization that we typically think of as a church in modern times.  The Chantry has a military arm, and exerts some control over it.  The Chantry preaches the "gospel" that convinces the populace that it is both right and necessary to lock up mages.  Obviously opinions on this vary, but I do think the Chantry is the heart of the problem and makes itself a target.

Regarding your first point, if you're talking about what I think you're talking about then I think she was warned that there may be an attempt on her life.  Not necessarily that Anderjustice was going to blow up the whole building.  The reaction to such a warning would be to leave town, but leave the Chantry running under the next senior religious bigwig.  In which case people going about basic worship would still get wiped out.

Regarding the second point, we may not see dozens of orphans in the Chantry, but we do see a woman praying downstairs, just what for escapes my memory, we also see a gentleman praying upstairs inregards to a certain rash he's developed.  Thus we can prove that innocent people, whose only crime happens to be their faith in their particular religion getting killed.

Regarding your third point, yes the Chantry does have some control over both the Templar Order and can exert control over how the mages are treated in the Circle.  But I don't think it's quiet as much as you seem to think, my opinion again, between the First Enchanter, the Knight-Commander and the Grand Cleric theres's layers upon layers of influence there.  Furthermore that military arm isn't housed anywhere near the building that Anders blew up.  Look around and you'll see one, maybe two templars there.  The bulk of them are located where the Circle of Magi are housed, in Kirkwall's case the Gallows.  Anders didn't strike against that because the people he wanted to free were there.  He blew up the Chantry because it was the only branch that could have organized a comprimise between the two factions. 

I'm not saying that the mages in Kirkwall didn't have every right to rebel.  They were being oppressed by a tyrant prior to the explosion and afterwards their lives were directly threatened.  I'm just saying that Anders isn't some kind of superhero or martyr for doing what he did.  He was an immoral fanatic who decided in and of himself that the innocents that died in the explosion were just the blood toll for his vision of the greater good.  I, myself, don't buy it.

[CitizenThom]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

A dangerous zealot who likes to punish innocent people for his ideals who is driven bonkers by a powerful entity.(Meredith = Idol, Anders = Justice)

The man speaks the truth, not that any Anders fans will admit it. Anders is a zealot... as every zealot, so obssessed with his ideal, that he becomes irrational, so irrational that he destroys every possibility of his ideal being realised.

Plus, no one likes suicide murderers Anders.

*casts immunity to flame*

[Xilizhra]

bleetman wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Slight problem: innocent deaths are more or less inevitable in war.

So I suppose no steps should be taken to avoid them, then.

Ideally, I would have no one die at all. But I also don't know if a better way to accomplish things could have been found.

[Plaintiff]

bleetman wrote...

Not to mention Anders wasn't particularly "striking a blow against his oppressors". If he'd wanted to do that, he could've just smuggled the thing into/under the Templar barracks. It wouldn't have been that hard, and would've actually have made sense in requiring Hawke as a distraction rather than the Chantry which he can effectively walk into at any time.

Blowing up the Chantry wasn't "striking a blow for mage freedom". It was a means of getting rid of that pesky Grand Cleric who kept saying no to Meredith whenever she wanted to annul the circle for no particular reason. Rile up the Templars. Show everyone what they're really like. Force those circle mages into fighting back whether they like it or not, because Anders thinks they ought to.

You know the templar barracks and the mage's quarters are one and the same, right? He would've killed everybody outright and then nothing would've really changed. Not to mention that the Chantry, as the organization which legtimizes templar authority, is totally and completely the true source of oppression. It's the difference between cutting of your enemy's arm and cutting off his head.

How is exposing the true face of the templars not striking a blow for mage freedom?

It's funny how people keep saying Anders has no idea what other mages want, when he is one and suffered through years of the same crap that mages typically put up with before we, as players, ever encounter his character.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Slight problem: innocent deaths are more or less inevitable in war.

So I suppose no steps should be taken to avoid them, then.

Ideally, I would have no one die at all. But I also don't know if a better way to accomplish things could have been found.

It would have taken a lot of patience, of which Anders had none, and a lot of time, which Anders didn't want to spend. Social change takes time, and generally, rights are earned, not freely given. Mages, with their cavalier attitude toward blood magic, had not earned their right to free movement. That's not to say the Templars' abuses were justified, but simply saying "revolution now, ethics later" fixes nothing.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 18 janvier 2012 - 04:12 .