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[who would know]

Mac Walters interview wrote...

"I don't think I'd call it 'trapped'," he explained, when asked how he felt about having to accommodate several possible player decisions at key plot junctures. "They're more hurdles. Sometimes they're hurdles that we've given ourselves, so we kind of smack ourselves in the head and say 'What the hell were we thinking? Why did we do that?'

The classic example is 'Hey, let's make the ending of Mass Effect 2 a suicide mission where all your henchmen can possibly die, and Shepard can even die!' Oh right... and then we're gonna do another game after that. What the hell are we gonna do with all those guys?"

BioWare's answer to this question seems to be to sideline the entire cast that ME2 introduced. This is a legitimate solution in the face of just how over-ambitious the Suicide Mission was for part two of three, but the answer could've and should've been something else:

Import into ME3 should've only been allowed if certain key party members survived ME2.

Justify it (or don't, because variable reduction is justification enough) like this: With them dead, the war may as well be unwinnable.

I'm thinking of Miranda, and I'm thinking of Mordin.

When I look at Miranda, I see someone who, regardless of my or anyone's personal take or opinion on her as a character, would've been a natural fit for ME3's squad, given how Cerberus-centric a conclusion it seems to be. Anything less would be an injustice and obvious contrivance. She was also the director of Shepard's resurrection and was painted as one of the most competent party members at our disposal.

When I look at Mordin, I see the most multi-faceted personality the series has offered yet. He doesn't have the largest fan thread, but he is almost universally beloved, and succinctly, Mordin was to Mass Effect 2 what The Joker was to The Dark Knight. Anything less than a role that once again placed him at the forefront, at Shepard's side once more as advisor, genius, and friend, would be a missed opportunity, especially considering the eleventh-hour state the galaxy is in.

It wouldn't have been hard for players to revisit a save file and redo the Suicide Mission to get a valid import, either, unless they'd completed lots of content post-S.M. That's the only way I can see anybody getting bitter about it. After all, a severely botched S.M. was a deliberate construction, and Miranda was harder to kill than most...

Also, a digression, since I'm in the mood for a "what could have been" circlejerk: regarding the supposed need for ME3's core squad to invariably make available the pure skill sets of soldier, adept and engineer, those roles could also have been filled by Vega, Aria and Legion. Not overly relevant in the grand scheme of this particular thread, but something I wanted to say.

Your thoughts?

Modifié par who would know, 27 décembre 2011 - 06:33 .

[Clara Shepard]

^I agree, we shouldn't 'require' miranda or any of them, that's why they have to choice of dying, but the VS, Wrex, and Liara are so important they can't die, taco? Taco.

[Cuddlezarro]

Clara Shepard wrote...

^I agree, we shouldn't 'require' miranda or any of them, that's why they have to choice of dying, but the VS, Wrex, and Liara are so important they can't die, taco? Taco.

Wrex can die in ME1

[Dave of Canada]

I'd have preferred if they made mandatory deaths, would've added drama to the suicide mission and would've made writing for ME3 not be as bad.

[AgitatedLemon]

They write the ME2 squad so much better than the first game's, and what do they do?

Practically throw them ALL AWAY.

Granted, not all of them were super important (Samara/Morinth, Zaeed, Kasumi, Thane, possibly Grunt), but the ones that WERE (Miranda, Jacob, Legion, Mordin) Have little to no screen time, and all of them can die.

Weird thing is, even DLC characters like Zaeed are making canon appearances in ME3.

The characters that acted as pseudo-deuteragonists in the 2nd game (Miranda, Jacob specifically) have the smallest amount of screen time, despite being tied to Cerberus, which is a major ANTAGONISTIC FACTION WITH A STORYLINE TO RESOLVE. I know at least Miranda has some Cerberus closure in the 3rd game, but it's a relatively small amount, and while important to the story, doesn't feel very well put together, at least in my opinion.

TL;DR: ME2 Squad>ME1 Squad, yet to BioWare the ME2 squad was just a side show.

Garrus, Tali, and Liara were so much better in ME2 than in ME1 it almost baffles me.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 23 décembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[Donnstar]

Suicide mission was a stupid idea to begin with. It didn't  remotely capture the same feeling as the virime decision. Thats because it's like WOAH OVERLOAD EVERYONE CAN DIE. SAVE ME PLZ.

and then its ridiculously easy to save everyone.

I'm okay with the me2 cast being shafted, after all me1 cast was shafted first. What sucks now is that we have a bunch of bogged down content trying to fulfill every variable and romance. It's a waste of time.

As for your suggestion. I agree. Set some necessary characters, and have the rest just die off. Honestly, there are too many add on characters that will add nothing to the game in me3.
Thane and Jacob should be dead as part of the canon. Less variables for Bioware to worry about and less crap to fluff up the game.

Modifié par Donnstar, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Cuddlezarro]

bioware really did screw the pooch when they made every one in the suicide mission able to survive (and easily at that)

then again maybe im just butthurt at the fact I wont be able to use legion or mordin again and get stuck with tali/liara/VS when i dont like any of them

[AgitatedLemon]

Donnstar wrote...

Suicide mission was a stupid idea to begin with. It didn't  remotely capture the same feeling as the virime decision. Thats because it's like WOAH OVERLOAD EVERYONE CAN DIE. SAVE ME PLZ.

and then its ridiculously easy to save everyone.

I'm okay with the me2 cast being shafted, after all me1 cast was shafted first. What sucks now is that we have a bunch of bogged down content trying to fulfill every variable and romance. It's a waste of time.

As for your suggestion. I agree. Set some necessary characters, and have the rest just die off. Honestly, there are too many add on characters that will add nothing to the game in me3.
Thane and Jacob should be dead as part of the canon. Less variables for Bioware to worry about and less crap to fluff up the game.

The ME1 cast wasn't shafted. At all.

Liara, Garrus, and Tali all reappeared as squadmates, at least temporarily, the VS is on Horizon and a relationship can continue, and Wrex can potentially lead the Krogan. Everyone besides the VS is doing something fairly major, especially Liara, being the new Shadow Broker.

I agree that SOME ME2 characters are fairly minor in terms of the broad story (Samara, Zaeed, Kasumi, Thane), some are fairly major and important (Miranda, Jacob), and some are "Eh..." (Mordin, Grunt, Legion), plus the squadmates that have been in both games have possibly the largest role out of all the NPCs.

My point being they could merge the important ME2 characters into the current squad line-up, which still just equals 12 people (Technically 11 since either Ash/Kaidan will return, not both.), which equals ME2 overall size.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 23 décembre 2011 - 09:16 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Honestly, I'm fine with Garrus, Liara, and Tali returning. I'll give Vega a chance, but ever since I met Ash on Horizon, I kinda don't want her anymore. I'd trade her for Miranda in a New York minute.

[Cuddlezarro]

some are fairly major and important (Legion, Miranda, Jacob), and some are "Eh..." (Mordin, Grunt)

how the hell is Jacob more important than Mordin?

Mordin you know has the entire genophage cure subplot  ontop of being the reason you can even do anything to the collectors without being paralyzed Jacob...has nothing comparable to that

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:37 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

some are fairly major and important (Legion, Miranda, Jacob), and some are "Eh..." (Mordin, Grunt)

how the hell is Jacob more important than Mordin?

Mordin you know has the entire genophage cure subplot  ontop of being the reason you can even do anything to the collectors without being paralyzed Jacob...has nothing comparable to that

Jacob is tied to Cerberus, which is the 2nd antagonistic faction in ME3. He will likely have a mini story tied to it, but I don't know. And if it weren't for Jacob (Or Miranda, for that matter), Shepard would have died during ME2's prologue.

Mordin and the cure is completely optional and completely ignorable. Don't get me wrong, I would MUCH rather have Mordin on my team than Jacob. Mordin just isn't as central to the overall story as Jacob is.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[Cuddlezarro]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

some are fairly major and important (Legion, Miranda, Jacob), and some are "Eh..." (Mordin, Grunt)

how the hell is Jacob more important than Mordin?

Mordin you know has the entire genophage cure subplot  ontop of being the reason you can even do anything to the collectors without being paralyzed Jacob...has nothing comparable to that

Jacob is tied to Cerberus, which is the 2nd antagonistic faction in ME3. He will likely have a mini story tied to it, but I don't know.

Mordin and the cure is completely optional and completely ignorable. 

Jacob may be apart of cerberus but he was completly ignorable as well since he adds pretty much nothing to the plot in ME2

and Mordins cure may be optional(but you know not the fact you couldent succeed on horizen without him) but so is legion who you can freaking sell to cerberus without even talking to him

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:41 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

some are fairly major and important (Legion, Miranda, Jacob), and some are "Eh..." (Mordin, Grunt)

how the hell is Jacob more important than Mordin?

Mordin you know has the entire genophage cure subplot  ontop of being the reason you can even do anything to the collectors without being paralyzed Jacob...has nothing comparable to that

Jacob is tied to Cerberus, which is the 2nd antagonistic faction in ME3. He will likely have a mini story tied to it, but I don't know.

Mordin and the cure is completely optional and completely ignorable. 

Jacob may be apart of cerberus but he was completly ignorable as well since he adds pretty much nothing to the plot in ME2

and Mordins cure may be optional(but you know not the fact you couldent succeed on horizen without him) but so is legion who you can freaking sell to cerberus without even talking to him

Except Legion could potentially free the entire geth heretic subfaction from being brainwashed, and could potentially have the geth improve terms with the quarians, ending the hostilities and opening up both races for fighting against the reapers.

[Cuddlezarro]

AgitatedLemon wrote...


Except Legion could potentially free the entire geth heretic subfaction from being brainwashed, and could potentially have the geth improve terms with the quarians, ending the hostilities and opening up both races for fighting against the reapers.

still completely optional and ignorable just like mordin and just like mordin he can die during the suicide mission as stupid as it is

infact you dont need legion to tell the quarians to try make peace with the geth considering tali's trial and the fact there are already quarians(including an admiral) that want to make peace with the geth

and unlike legion you are FORCED to recruit mordin who you need to even be able to clear horizon and curing the geonphage or not is not exactly a minor detail expecially since the thought of being able to breed would likley help wrex/his brother who i forget since I dont kill him off get more krogan to ally with them if it means they can be free of it

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:58 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...


Except Legion could potentially free the entire geth heretic subfaction from being brainwashed, and could potentially have the geth improve terms with the quarians, ending the hostilities and opening up both races for fighting against the reapers.

still completely optional and ignorable just like mordin and just like mordin he can die during the suicide mission as stupid as it is

infact you dont need legion to tell the quarians to try make peace with the geth considering tali's trial and the fact there are already quarians(including an admiral) that want to make peace with the geth

and unlike legion you are FORCED to recruit mordin who you need to even be able to clear horizon and curing the geonphage or not is not exactly a minor detail expecially since the thought of being able to breed would likley help wrex/his brother who i forget since I dont kill him off get more krogan to ally with them if it means they can be free of it

So you're saying both characters are relatively "Ehh" level of importance with enormous subplots? Good to see we agree.

Also, Tali is against geth peace, as seen in... Almost all of her interactions concerning the geth.

This is my opinion, but geth>krogan. They have numbers, technology, and are machines so they don't require food, oxygen, or sleep. Plus the heretics rewritten still have memory data about the Reapers from Sovereign.

[Cuddlezarro]

In your earlier post you said legion was majorly important not "eh importance"

Also tali may be against the geth but i wasnt talking about her but the repucussions of her mission

Since her dad was working on technology that could in the end if it worked take controll of the geth ontop of the fact you can nudge the quarians towards peace or war with the geth or just plain old screw up the migrant fleet ig time by revealing what talis dad was working on

[AgitatedLemon]

I changed my first post. Now that I think about it, Legion is more of an "Ehh" level of importance, but I still personally think his plans are more ambitious than Mordin's.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 23 décembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[who would know]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd have preferred if they made mandatory deaths, would've added drama to the suicide mission and would've made writing for ME3 not be as bad.

Dynamic or pre-determined deaths? I agree either way that it would've added drama, but dynamic deaths wouldn't have made the import situation any less of a headache. I think it would've made more sense to simply guarantee the survival of some. Miranda was halfway there with Medium Plot Armor.

It's just hard for me to wrap my head around Tali and Garrus, fine characters and fan favorites though they may be, getting a place on the squad but not characters like Miranda and Mordin. I guess I can see why it was done, but I still wish that ME2's rising stars weren't being sidelined for the finale. I mean, we'll win either way, but I so would've relished the opportunity to have Mordin by my side as we play for keeps against the Reeps.

AgitatedLemon wrote...

TL;DR: ME2 Squad>ME1 Squad, yet to BioWare the ME2 squad was just a side show.

Garrus, Tali, and Liara were so much better in ME2 than in ME1 it almost baffles me.

Yeah, I know.  ME2 Tali borrowed traits from Liara's ME1 character, taking an undeniable step up from the blank slate she was, while ME2 Liara was given a whole new personality and role to the extent that she may as well be a whole new character.

The only ME1 character I'd rank with ME2's best is Ashley. Interacting with her character alone is almost impetus enough for me to replay Mass Effect.

[shepskisaac]

They should've put plot armors on a couple of characters, simple. Or frankly, Legion could've been railroaded into being alive no matter what and a perma squaddie in ME3. Just say he copied himself onto the Normandy before dying and we're done.

[who would know]

IsaacShep wrote...

They should've put plot armors on a couple of characters, simple.

Yep. Or just retconned their deaths. I'd gladly have paid that price to immersion if it meant bringing back some of ME2's stars for fuller treatments in ME3. I'm definitely not the proponent of immersion that some around here have claimed so vehemently to be.

Besides, wasn't a party member's death retconned from DA:O to DA2?

Modifié par who would know, 23 décembre 2011 - 06:37 .

[shepskisaac]

who would know wrote...

Yep. Or just retconned their deaths. I'd gladly have paid that price to immersion if it meant bringing back some of ME2's stars for fuller treatments in ME3. I'm definitely not the proponent of immersion that some around here have claimed so vehemently to be.

yeah, well, it's kinda impossible to retcon someone's death when you first see this person dying and then you can blow up the entire base and effectively make sure no retconning can happen. But with Legion, it could've easily been done, he was a bunch of programs that could transfer/copy himself somewhere else.

[who would know]

IsaacShep wrote...

yeah, well, it's kinda impossible to retcon someone's death when you first see this person dying and then you can blow up the entire base and effectively make sure no retconning can happen. But with Legion, it could've easily been done, he was a bunch of programs that could transfer/copy himself somewhere else.

I agree about Legion, but I wouldn't have ruled other party members out, no matter how sure their deaths seemed. There's gotta be some obscure way they could've revived a select few characters, especially after the ridiculousness that was the Lazarus Project. I know that two wrongs don't make a right, but still. I wouldn't have been too worried about the specifics.

[who would know]

Updated OP. Felt like bumping.

Any comments would be welcome.

[AgitatedLemon]

All I know is that I want Miranda, Mordin, and Legion back.

Even if they have to pull a cliche "You helped me so I'll join you".