34 réponses à ce sujet

[Tietj]

I agree with the very first response in this post; I'm loathe to criticize the writing of anyone at Bioware, but it did seem awfully convenient that Shepard ends up working for Cerberus and the council suddenly becomes staffed by obstinate imbeciles. ME1 established the council members as being intelligent and relatively fair; sure, they didn't believe Shepard at first, but then I probably wouldn't either. I do disagree with the poster that the council needed evidence against Shepard, because it was Shepard who was making the claim and therefore it was Shepard who had the burden of proof. But regardless, in ME2 they were just useless, and if I had had my druthers I would have liked an option to rejoin the Alliance and leave Cerberus in the dust. ME2 was an amazing game, no doubt, but I have a feeling that in hindsight it will be looked upon as the weakest of the three, plot-wise.

[JenMaxon]

I agree with you to a large extent. I'm just replaying ME1 and Shepard sounds bonkers at times to be honest. I think half the problem people have with it is they just can't see the issue other than through Shepard's perspective and the metagame knowledge that the reapers are real ('real', whatever).

[somecthemes]

I like the guess that the council is lying to Shep in a disinformation attempt to somehow make the Reapers overconfident, the only problem is that they announce themselves as "harbingers of destruction" and "salvation through destruction", obviously these guys are not lacking for confidence, and given that they've successfully carried out a cycle of destruction against every living species in reach of the mass relays for millions of years, I'd say that confidence is well earned.
So, it's not to manipulate the Reapers that the council denies their existence, so my next theory is that Udina actively worked against me, and discredited me every way possible before the council meetings, if only to spur his own position as the council's council.
I've heard some spoilerish notions that seem to support this idea, but nothing is definative until the release, still, any detractors to the idea that the only reason we didn't have the proper support, and the entire reason the galaxy stands back to the wall, is the political ambitions of Udina?

Modifié par somecthemes, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:40 .

[PauseforEffect]

Dean already said this and I agree that even though the Council may not believe in the Reapers, the fact that they were attacked and invaded right at the core of the Citadel should be reason enough to go into overdrive in preparing for a war. Come on Turian Councillor, where's your species' militaristic overkill reaction?!
That said, I don't blame them for not trusting Shepard. Heck, it sounded insane telling them about the Reapers. I'd rather have steered it towards a more plausible warning like, "Prepare for war. It is coming." rather than specify the enemy.

[cobrachris7]

Shepard: Ah yes, 'Turian Counselor', the biggest douchebag politician in Citadel Space who has to act like a giant ****-nugget for no real reason. I have dismissed that claim.
Turian Counselor: You are under arrest Shepard. Garrus Vakarian, it is your duty as a Turian soldier to arrest this human.
Garrus: Can it wait for a bit, I'm doing some calibrations.

[Nightwriter]

Badpie wrote...

In ME1 I could somewhat understand the reluctance of the Council to jump at the first cry of "Reapers!" by Shepard. Like they said, their decisions affect billions so without actual hard evidence it's tough for them to justify mobilizing billions of credits and hundreds of thousands of man power for what could very well be a myth or simply a tactic used by Saren to control the geth.

After Sovereign however, I feel like they shouldn't have been able to ignore it. To me, this was a case of convenient writing. Like Bioware said "well we kind of need to be at square one for this so we'll just say that parts of Sovereign disappeared and Vigil is broken and Shepard once again looks like a big herp derp." I kind of hated that. On the other hand if you can overlook that, I suppose you can believe that NO ONE believes in the Reapers again, but I still just.... eh....That was one of my gripes about the writing from a meta standpoint, not from a story standpoint on the Council.

This.

[seirhart]

I trust or I should say my shepards trust the council the original council more than most others, and he they all believe that the council have been secretly preparing for the reapers. They denied the whole reaper thing along with the collectors working for the reapers for the simple fact that shepard was working for cereberus at the time.

.

[somecthemes]

The idea that the council could have secret motives and agendas hidden from Anderson or Udina wouldn't be a suprise or really even troubling. The turians have the largest armada while the salarians are the experts at subterfuge and covert attacks. Each had their strengths and weaknesses that would naturally pull each species into differing paths for success.

The turians would best approach a situation with overwhelming force and methodic progression, while the salarians would send in one very hyper agent with a soldering iron. To imagine that these two divergent methodologies would cause tensions and secrecy to develop is logical, despite the strenghening diplomancy efforts of the asari, is no real stretch of imagination. Then, go to the effort of tossing a human bit of nievety and brashness in a precariously balanced situation, and of course the council would be initially selective about whay they reveal to their newest member, even if all signs point to that member supporting such a position.
The story elements that seem to contradict the coucil secretly preparing to face the reapers/"geth menace" is the Anderson's responses about the council's reactions, and most of that seems to be played of as the new guy complaining about the lack of obvious and dramatic efforts for military mobilization, not the bitter resentments of a person seeing absolutely no movements at all.
Ultimately, I just hope for the option to agreeably work with them and let the past die, I'd hate to have every playthrough feature a "I told you so moment" when the reapers show up, not if you've played throught the game previously and find out later that there's good reason for their secrecy or a couple of redemption moments where they sacrifice themselves to save others. They had a similar moment during our first meeting with the council, prior to obtaining Tali's evidence, where we essentially say, "You won't listen, so I won't bother to argue." in every response option. The option of not being a jerk in subsequent playthroughs would a nice feature, even if no one ever used it instead of the "bite me" choice during their first play through.

[Nayt Navare]

somecthemes wrote...

Okay, I just read through another thread about best reations to the council once the reapers arrive, typically something involving a "bite me" statement towards one or more of the councilors. After reading throught them, I went ahead and replayed ME 1 & 2 and tried to see things from the council's perspective, though mentally switching the word "Reaper" to "Galaxy-threatening Potato" really helped solidify the council's reactions as more realistic.
Essentially, Shepard starts sounding like a one-off hero who starts to see a horrible conspiracy behind every job. He can't visit any random planet in ME1 without running into another Cerberus nightmare and can't move much further in ME 2 without finding another slim piece of evidence that could be loosely linked to the reapers. It'd be a lot like that wonderful person in your office who excels at work and always does a great job, but who is always trying to make it seem like the world is just on the edge of collapse and they're personally holding back the chaos. You appreciate the person, but learn to avoid the after-job report where the "fantasy" comes to life.
Shep is almost hurting due to his successes, since he might have come in with a few clues and evinced some trepedations about the threat, but instead he walks in with a encyclopedia of galactic history and says look for the patterns, and a reasonable person would say that such a pattern could be percieved where there is no pattern, that later is more likely than a repeating cycle of destruction. Unless they have seen one, the reapers seem like dieties, with them literally wiping away all life in a cycle that's been going on for millions of years.
So, I'm kinda of the opinion that there's at least one councilor, the salarian, even the asari helped, who should be praised in ME 3 for maintaining Shep's relationship with the council and keeping him around even when he started to sound really, really crazy.

Any similar thoughts?

Spoiler Alert-  


No. 

To naswer your question seriously, though, no.  I don't care how ridiculous it seems, when someone has proven themsleves either credible or efficient, and they say "A is occuring", you don't just presume B.  Regardless of what may or may not have happened, Shepard saved the Councill, and the Citadel, AFTER they doubted him on almost everything in ME1.  Now, they should at least LISTEN to him or investigate his claims.  Pure self-preservation logic.  Not that I don't understand their motivations or views, but no.

They are wrong.

[somecthemes]

As credible as I feel about my dad, if he came up to me a started telling me about how the world was about to be plunged into galaxy wide war and the only evidence I could have was his unique interpretation of what seems a horrific disaster, I wouldn't immediately believe him either.
It's the same reaction I had when some of the 9-11 responders started jumping on the conspiracy wagon with believing the government had a hand in the plot; as much as their actions made them heros and their support in a time of disaster made me want to immediately stand with them and support their views, I couldn't step beyond their initial conclusions. I see it as a failing on my part that I can't extend myself far enough to see it from their perspective, but mostly it's their fault for not substantiating their claims adequately enough for the common man to accept.
So, while I can easily be irritated at the council for not accepting any of the evidence regarding the reapers, I kinda see most of the fault lying at Shep's feet for not being able to convince them with more proper evidence.
Since we had the council previously change their decisions when presented with irrifutable omnitool data, why couldn't we present such recordings of vigil's statements, of the conversations with Soverign, Harbinger, take a bloody snapshot of the reaper infant before blowing it away, and realisticly present the case for the reapers. I can assume it's for story purposed that the council must follow the path of ignorance, but have to admit it's mostly Shep's lack of foresight that left him lacking evidence.