93 réponses à ce sujet

[sdrgbgdfgbfgbdfjkgbdfj]

Mordaedil wrote...

I don't recall DOOM featuring any point at a time where you gather forces to become really powerful to overthrow the final bad guy.
Your character is actually pretty static throughout.

Except for the bits where you get more and more equipment, power ups and **** to fight the increasingly powerful enemies in growing mob sizes. The combat system and progression is different, but the general idea is the same.

[Appolo90]

LostSoulsOfWoe wrote...

This. For further reading please google Monomyth.

So that's another name for the hero's journey?

Campbell's outline of the hero's story is generally a good reference, but his wording is so pretentious. What else can you expect from a preachy intellectual, though? So, just apply his breakdown to every heroic story you've come to love and get ready to realize that you've been reading the same story several times over.

[Godeshus]

 My Previous post clearly was out of context. I imagined Monomyth was an original book when you mentioned it.

Regardless, the following was taken directly from the Wikipedia entry on Monomyth:

Joseph Campbell's term monomyth, also referred to as the hero's journey, refers to a basic pattern found in many narratives from around the world. This widely-distributed pattern was described by Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949).[1] An enthusiast of novelist James Joyce,[2] Campbell borrowed the term monomyth from Joyce's Finnegans Wake.[3]

I've highlighted what struck me as prety damn Ironic. He's saying there's no originality in story telling, but can't even come up with his own term for it? Nice.

[Gadarr]

zazei wrote...

While I wouldn't go as far as compare it to Doom even the most dedicated Bioware fan got to admit they tended to make games that are quit similar lately. All female love interests seems to be Carth clones for just one example and their stories do follow similar patterns.
It's not like it isn't possible to do anything unique. While these are somewhat older games here are some examples. Vampire Bloodlines, Kotor II, Mask of the Betrayer and the Witcher for some examples. Even older Bioware games was different. Baldur's gate 2 as another example.  I can't remember who wrote it but as some developer at Obsidian I think it was pointed out once it's even possible to write a story about two lawful and good nation going to war.

Actually, those games set up the hero against some threat, too. It just isn't as apparent and maybe not as "epic". In Bloodlines it's basically the Prince, even though you don't fully realize it until the very end (and may side with him nontheless, although that'll get you killed), in The Witcher it is from the very beginning obviously the Salamandra.

Stories work that way, and I don't think that there's any way around that, at least not in rpgs that *need* to focus on a hero (you) and his actions. I highly doubt that the technique of authors like Martin (Song of Ice and Fire) who disposes of his heroes several times would work in a video game. And even there you have the different heroes working against some threat, they just happen to die more often than usual.

Now, it would indeed be interesting if you could play Loghain (or some equally inclined character) who chooses an imaginary threat over the real one.
But still, the underlaying storytelling technique wouldn't change. Hero vs (perceived) evil.

In DA, the stories framework is indeed somewhat of an cliché. But then, it's only the framework. It provides you with a reason why you do all the things you end up doing in the game, but it's not as if you're constantly battling darkspawn to finally reach the archdemon. On the contrary, the story gets quite diverse and in some cases even quite original, I would say.

Modifié par Gadarr, 23 novembre 2009 - 10:45 .

[Zethryn]

Appolo90 wrote...

LostSoulsOfWoe wrote...

This. For further reading please google Monomyth.

So that's another name for the hero's journey?

Campbell's outline of the hero's story is generally a good reference, but his wording is so pretentious. What else can you expect from a preachy intellectual, though? So, just apply his breakdown to every heroic story you've come to love and get ready to realize that you've been reading the same story several times over.

Yup, since it's just one word it is easier to type.

And yes that is exactly what happens since you are breaking down the details that makes the story different and you end up with an outline. An outline that is pretty much the same mind you but an outline nonetheless. Why I decided to mention it was because that is exactly what the OP did when comparing Doom to all of Bioware's games. He just got rid of every detail and made the games into an outline that looked similar. It isn't a very good way to compare things and not a very good literary analysis imo. But it is interesting nonetheless.

Oh and yes, I dislike his wording greatly.

Godeshus wrote...

 My Previous post clearly was out of context. I imagined Monomyth was an original book when you mentioned it.

Regardless, the following was taken directly from the Wikipedia entry on Monomyth:

Joseph Campbell's term monomyth, also referred to as the hero's journey, refers to a basic pattern found in many narratives from around the world. This widely-distributed pattern was described by Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949).[1] An enthusiast of novelist James Joyce,[2] Campbell borrowed the term monomyth from Joyce's Finnegans Wake.[3]

I've
highlighted what struck me as prety damn Ironic. He's saying there's no
originality in story telling, but can't even come up with his own term
for it? Nice.

Very ironic. I didn't even notice that.

I was originally going to correct your previous post but I decided against it since you did say you were going to look into it. Doesn't Monomyth just have this epic ring to it though?

Modifié par LostSoulsOfWoe, 23 novembre 2009 - 10:47 .

[DragonRageGT]

Well, BG only happened because of Diablo and his brothers and they chant about it in the game...(And BW thanked Blizzard too in the credits, IIRC) ... so a big horray for Diablo, Mephisto and Baal. .. and Sean Conery's special appearance as Deckerd Cain... uahuah



C'mon.. any game that is fun to play, whatever setting, background, story, is a game worthy playing! You guys take it too seriouly when RL has enough crazy ppl ready to bomb our asses off the planet! "If it is inevitable, just sit back and relax!"

[Godeshus]

LostSoulsOfWoe wrote...

Appolo90 wrote...

LostSoulsOfWoe wrote...

This. For further reading please google Monomyth.

So that's another name for the hero's journey?

Campbell's outline of the hero's story is generally a good reference, but his wording is so pretentious. What else can you expect from a preachy intellectual, though? So, just apply his breakdown to every heroic story you've come to love and get ready to realize that you've been reading the same story several times over.

Yup, since it's just one word it is easier to type.

And yes that is exactly what happens since you are breaking down the details that makes the story different and you end up with an outline. An outline that is pretty much the same mind you but an outline nonetheless. Why I decided to mention it was because that is exactly what the OP did when comparing Doom to all of Bioware's games. He just got rid of every detail and made the games into an outline that looked similar. It isn't a very good way to compare things and not a very good literary analysis imo. But it is interesting nonetheless.

Oh and yes, I dislike his wording greatly.

This is really interesting and didn't see it from this angle before. It is, however, entirely true. I like apples, you like oranges, but they're both fruit no matter how you want to look at it.

In regards to story telling, the only other option, it would seem, would be to tell a story from the point of view of the bad guy, and make it so no one cares about him at all, and everyone hates him, so that he is CLEARLY the bad guy, then at the end he kills the Hero and plunges the world into darkness and death for millenia. There is enough horror going on in every day life that people like Heroes to read about heroes.

When you wake up in the morning and read the paper, and the first 3 articles headline murders, rapes and thefts, It's nice to have a place (imagination) where this will all come to an end because of a Hero.

[Godeshus]

RageGT wrote...

...C'mon.. any game that is fun to play, whatever setting, background, story, is a game worthy playing! You guys take it too seriouly when RL has enough crazy ppl ready to bomb our asses off the planet! "If it is inevitable, just sit back and relax!"

Lol says the guy named Rage 

[ItmustBeDONE]

sdrgbgdfgbfgbdfjkgbdfj wrote...

Mordaedil wrote...

I don't recall DOOM featuring any point at a time where you gather forces to become really powerful to overthrow the final bad guy.
Your character is actually pretty static throughout.

Except for the bits where you get more and more equipment, power ups and **** to fight the increasingly powerful enemies in growing mob sizes. The combat system and progression is different, but the general idea is the same.

What about fable II? Did you beat it? What about that ending?

[Zethryn]

Godeshus wrote...

LostSoulsOfWoe wrote...

Appolo90 wrote...

LostSoulsOfWoe wrote...

This. For further reading please google Monomyth.

So that's another name for the hero's journey?

Campbell's outline of the hero's story is generally a good reference, but his wording is so pretentious. What else can you expect from a preachy intellectual, though? So, just apply his breakdown to every heroic story you've come to love and get ready to realize that you've been reading the same story several times over.

Yup, since it's just one word it is easier to type.

And yes that is exactly what happens since you are breaking down the details that makes the story different and you end up with an outline. An outline that is pretty much the same mind you but an outline nonetheless. Why I decided to mention it was because that is exactly what the OP did when comparing Doom to all of Bioware's games. He just got rid of every detail and made the games into an outline that looked similar. It isn't a very good way to compare things and not a very good literary analysis imo. But it is interesting nonetheless.

Oh and yes, I dislike his wording greatly.

This is really interesting and didn't see it from this angle before. It is, however, entirely true. I like apples, you like oranges, but they're both fruit no matter how you want to look at it.

In regards to story telling, the only other option, it would seem, would be to tell a story from the point of view of the bad guy, and make it so no one cares about him at all, and everyone hates him, so that he is CLEARLY the bad guy, then at the end he kills the Hero and plunges the world into darkness and death for millenia. There is enough horror going on in every day life that people like Heroes to read about heroes.

When you wake up in the morning and read the paper, and the first 3 articles headline murders, rapes and thefts, It's nice to have a place (imagination) where this will all come to an end because of a Hero.

Exactly! A lot of  people go to games, books, movies, and other forms of storytelling as an escape. The reason why a hero commonly rises from nothing to everything is so the common person reading/playing/watching can relate to that hero and immerse themselves into this fantasy. They want to be this hero that can overcome any obstacle and defeat all evil so peace and happiness can once again flourish in the lands.

This of course isn't always this case but it is a common inspiration for many fables,myths, and stories.

[MartinJHolm]

Hyunsai wrote...

OP got a point. The "Save the world theme" is getting a bit old, and has replaced the "Save the princess" cliché...

Actually it never gets old that's why it's used again and again.

[Gecon]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Not all Bioware games are like me Stop saying that.

sdrgbgdfgbfgbdfjkgbdfj wrote...

[...] , in every Bioware game it's always done in the same manner. You become super powerful [...] Why not do it the way they did in Lord of the Rings where it's the little hobbits that save the day?

Go read LotR again then. Especially the part where the Hobbits became powerful heros who overwhelmed Saruman and even grew in size.

[DragonRageGT]

Godeshus wrote...

RageGT wrote...

...C'mon.. any game that is fun to play, whatever setting, background, story, is a game worthy playing! You guys take it too seriouly when RL has enough crazy ppl ready to bomb our asses off the planet! "If it is inevitable, just sit back and relax!"

Lol says the guy named Rage 

As the GT's motto for Starcraft preached, "Peace among men, War in the net!"

Gothic series and Risen have a pretty original story... too bad it's german so it never made that success in N. America, I guess... The Witcher is a nice polish novel too.  I'm just glad that DA is out and with DLC support promised for the next 2 years because 2012 is right around the corner... (so politically correct that it is nausiating)

And the halflings had a lot of power in LotR... enough to change the fate of the world!

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!
("may the Halflings live long, glory to the Halflings")

Modifié par RageGT, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:53 .

[Asger]

Godeshus wrote...

 My Previous post clearly was out of context. I imagined Monomyth was an original book when you mentioned it.

Regardless, the following was taken directly from the Wikipedia entry on Monomyth:

Joseph Campbell's term monomyth, also referred to as the hero's journey, refers to a basic pattern found in many narratives from around the world. This widely-distributed pattern was described by Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949).[1] An enthusiast of novelist James Joyce,[2] Campbell borrowed the term monomyth from Joyce's Finnegans Wake.[3]

I've highlighted what struck me as prety damn Ironic. He's saying there's no originality in story telling, but can't even come up with his own term for it? Nice.

Why is that ironic? Campbell's book doesn't accuse anyone of unoriginality. Quite apart from the fact that he doesn't even pretend to cover all of storytelling (which he'd have to do if he were "saying there's no originality in storytelling"), the tone of the book makes it pretty clear that he thinks the similarities he points out are a good thing. From the Preface:

My hope is that a comparative elucidation may contribute to the perhaps not-quite-desperate cause of those forces that are working in the present world for unification, not in the name of some ecclesiastical or political empire, but in the sense of human mutual understanding. As we are told in the Vedas: "Truth is one, the sages speak of it by many names."

[Memengwa]

I have Gothic in English, so it's not the reason why it didn't make in the US. If you google about Gothic IV, you'll learn that there's a new one in the making. It's not really going to be Gothic - it's going to be a new hero (and the old hero is going to be an antagonist this time). The game is going to be made easier to play - so that the US market can enjoy it.



That aside, there's something with Gothic that doesn't pass my "40h test". In the end the quests are too simplistic. Gothic 3 bored me to tears (go to next town, choose side - either orcs or the rebels, do some fedex quests, go to next town, choose side, do some fedex quests).



What sets DAO aside are the origins (they addressed the "nobody knows who I am" problem), the choices and consequences (although it seems to be a popular term nowdays - probably too many players got fed up with no consequences), the NPCs and no cartooney good/evil (except for darkspawn that are cartooney).



As said, the difference is in the details. Because if you ignore the details, there's nothing in this game that hasn't been done before.

[MarloMarlo]

Zealuu wrote...
Troll or not, he sort of does have a point. I don't see why a fantasy roleplaying game necessarily has to involve a horde of mindlessly evil beings who want to destroy the world just because that's what they do.

Is BioWare saying that they do? I can make a stupid argument up and then dismiss it, too. Doesn't make me insightful or particularly smart. You and he have as much of a point as I would if I argued that not all dogs have to be named "Catfood."

And Dragon Age being that kind of game is not the same as an argument by BioWare that those are the only kinds of games to make. Do you think that the job you do is the only kind of job people can do? Would you praise me for pointing out to you that it isn't?

[Dark83]

sdrgbgdfgbfgbdfjkgbdfj wrote...

Mordaedil wrote...

I don't recall DOOM featuring any point at a time where you gather forces to become really powerful to overthrow the final bad guy.
Your character is actually pretty static throughout.

Except for the bits where you get more and more equipment, power ups and **** to fight the increasingly powerful enemies in growing mob sizes. The combat system and progression is different, but the general idea is the same.

Isn't this every sort of game?
Diablo, Titan's Quest, Fable, The Elder Scrolls, Command & Conquer, the entire Warcraft series including WoW, and so on?

[Foxd1e]

OP is the biggest tool ever, why would you assume any random game is remotely like Doom? I Shouldn't even bother humoring this thread with a decent answer but I will. Do you have companions in Doom? No. Does Doom have multiple classes to choose from? No. Do you level up? No. Do you get anything for leveling up? No. How big is the weapon selection? Oh about 10 guns and a chainsaw, don't forget the awesome fist of Doom. Does Doom have an epic story? Only if your imagination can fathom it. I could go on and on and on and on. The point being Dragon Age is at least a hundred million times more complex, deep, and rewarding experience than Doom ever was. Don't get me wrong, Doom was one of the best videogames of it's day but it's production values were ****** poor and it's story telling revolved around a few scattered paragraphs throughout the game.

EDIT: On another note the Heroic story formula is nothing new, most internet circles have known about it for a few years at least. These days I've basically learned to simply enjoy any unique variables introduced to the same old formula.

Modifié par Foxd1e, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:43 .

[Zealuu]

MarloMarlo wrote...
Is BioWare saying that they do?

Saying explicitly that they do it would be a bit of a PR suicide, wouldn't it? However, that is indeed what they and most other contemporary studios making RPGs do, as evidenced by ... Well, the major plotlines of these games.

MarloMarlo wrote...

And Dragon Age being that kind of game is not the same as an argument by BioWare that those are the only kinds of games to make.

Obviously not, but the fact remains that these are the only kind of games Bioware make. That in itself makes this thread warranted, even if Bioware could in theory make other kinds of games. Obviously the original poster is making a ridiculous comparison for the sake of the argument, but that doesn't change the core of the issue: Storytelling and key plot elements in RPGs are rapidly growing tired, predictable and stale, and no one - including precious Bioware - appear to be interested in innovating that particular aspect of the genre.

Modifié par Zealuu, 23 novembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Ravenheart of the Wild]

Someone call an exterminator, we got a troll infestation....

[Chezdon]

What they should do is have you start off insanely powerful, and as you go through the game get weaker and weaker until the world turns into chaos because you could no longer save it.



Yeah I'd buy that game... /sarcasm



Rofl @ your username. wtf?



And Doom ftw.

[Hurbster]

Sure as hell could have done with a healing mage when facing that cyberdemon.

[Bibdy]

Good god, he's right! We're sick of this! Attention Game Developers of the world, stop making games which incorporate:



A) A main character

Something for him to fight



3-Dimensions is so old-school, too. Its been done to death. Try coming up with something original, for crying out loud.

[DragonRageGT]

Memengwa wrote...

I have Gothic in English, so it's not the reason why it didn't make in the US. If you google about Gothic IV, you'll learn that there's a new one in the making. It's not really going to be Gothic - it's going to be a new hero (and the old hero is going to be an antagonist this time). The game is going to be made easier to play - so that the US market can enjoy it.

That aside, there's something with Gothic that doesn't pass my "40h test". In the end the quests are too simplistic. Gothic 3 bored me to tears (go to next town, choose side - either orcs or the rebels, do some fedex quests, go to next town, choose side, do some fedex quests).

What sets DAO aside are the origins (they addressed the "nobody knows who I am" problem), the choices and consequences (although it seems to be a popular term nowdays - probably too many players got fed up with no consequences), the NPCs and no cartooney good/evil (except for darkspawn that are cartooney).

As said, the difference is in the details. Because if you ignore the details, there's nothing in this game that hasn't been done before.

Oh, I know Arcania and I'm looking forward to see what JooWood has done to one of the best RPG series, as they took out of the scene the mind and heart of it, which was the Piranhas. Gothic 3 with the 900MB community patch is a very challenging game and the Gothics as a whole are well supported all over the world. Specially Gothic 1 and 2 are very liked also because they keep some strong connection with the same NPCs that will help you in those games. They show up on 3 too but 3 was somewhat different from original Gothic style.

Gothic also has a faction system that does take into account the choices you make through the game and it's fun too.

Amazing that Risen, which brought back that old Gothic style, is doing well in America too, as well as in the rest of the World. (I myself have seven full playthroughs on it and will surely have an 8th sometime after I get so sick of DA that I'll need a break... that might take some long years ahead too... 3rd run now and it's more fun than ever. =)

I always loved Bioware games and I'm deep into D.A. and I could care less if they follow some beaten formula as far as they are still original in their way of telling the story and provide me with endelss hours of fun gameplay. And heck, what a nice story DA has. Those who can't stand it might look for alternatives, start their own gaming company and produce something different, more aligned to their taste, and who knows, they might make a huge success and zillion dollars with it.

Modifié par RageGT, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:31 .