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[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it.

A concept called "There is no friction in space"

www.projectrho.com/rocket/misconceptions.php

[Bleachrude]

re: 5th fleet has DNs
Wait..the 5th fleet had dreadnoughts? Where was this revealed (please tell me not another bioware author says so -- one of the most annoying things about Dragon age is the amount of times Bioware reveals information OUTSIDE of books/game/comics/codex)

1. Why exactly would the citadel fleet ignore Sovereign?!?!...It clearly is the biggest threat around and the thing is, it makes sense if say the big dreadnought was the diversion and the real threat was a frigate sized ship. But the fact that Sovereign DN was the main threat means they should already be focusing on it.

2. Shepard is a spectre that in-lore is known as the hand of the council. Of course they are going to follow shepard's order given that he's not asking them to do something at first glance that looks silly such as attack a frigate while ignoring the dreadnought that is closing in on the citadel.

3. A crippled dreadnought that can still manoeuver and thus still fight or are you actually stating that its entire broadside was down? (let me state again that it makes no sense to put your governing body on the most powerful ship in the fleet without heavy screening)...

4. What exactly was the purpose of the geth fleet if not to guard sovereign and what makes everyone thing the geth were fighting citadel ships in the nebulae? That's not in any way what we see in the cutscene..The relay to the citadel is pretty much right on top of the citadel itself..The geth fleet start firing almost immediately once exiting the relay (same with the 5th fleet - I counted at most 3 seconds between exit and firing) so why would the geth be anywhere else?

5. This was a relay fight and the codex mentions that relay fights take place at close range so no, the citadel fleet (what's left of it) is still right there....

6. Acceleration versus turning - There's a huge difference between the two. Turning is easy, accelerating might not be but at knife fight ranges, you're not moving fast at ALL. Look at the cutscene and tell me is there any citadel ship moving quickly? Their pretty much standing still while the geth close in...


A better question in the game would be to have a save the council versus save the DA.

[Bleachrude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it.

A concept called "There is no friction in space"

www.projectrho.com/rocket/misconceptions.php

reat page and I suspect one of the pages ME1 writers worked from when they were coming up with the backstory of the ME-universe especially with regard to heat and the problem of getting rid of it in space...Now...the animators? Eh, not so much.

(go further down the page to the following section)
Rockets Are Not Arrows
Again, I think you're mixing two things up. Moving in one direction and turning in one direction...Hell, the writer even points out how it is an advantage so you can, turn your weapons on the enemy...

At knife-fight ranges as we see in the cutscene, that's ALL the citadel ships need to do...where is the idea coming from that the citadel fleet is not in close and is fighting in the nebulae? The cutsecen clearly shows geth+sovereign relay in, ALL ships head straight for the citadel and start attacking the fleet that is hanging right around the citadel itself... 

Modifié par Bleachrude, 25 décembre 2011 - 05:29 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bleachrude wrote...

re: 5th fleet has DNs
Wait..the 5th fleet had dreadnoughts? Where was this revealed (please tell me not another bioware author says so -- one of the most annoying things about Dragon age is the amount of times Bioware reveals information OUTSIDE of books/game/comics/codex)

Yes. Confirmed by devs via Twitter.
There was a mixup with the models so they didn't make it into the cutscene.

1. Why exactly would the citadel fleet ignore Sovereign?!?!...It clearly is the biggest threat around and the thing is, it makes sense if say the big dreadnought was the diversion and the real threat was a frigate sized ship. But the fact that Sovereign DN was the main threat means they should already be focusing on it.

Becasue they don't know it's the biggest threat. No one belives in the reapers. And just because it's big doesn't mean it CURRENTLY the biggest threat. It's docked at the citadel, the gates closed, while the Geth fleet is attacking the rest.

2. Shepard is a spectre that in-lore is known as the hand of the council. Of course they are going to follow shepard's order given that he's not asking them to do something at first glance that looks silly such as attack a frigate while ignoring the dreadnought that is closing in on the citadel.

Just because someone is a Specter doesn't mean he can give order to everyone. Also, the fleet takes order from the Council. They are evacuating.

3. A crippled dreadnought that can still manoeuver and thus still fight or are you actually stating that its entire broadside was down? (let me state again that it makes no sense to put your governing body on the most powerful ship in the fleet without heavy screening)...

Screaning or not, the Geth got true. The DA was in big trouble. It wasn't in position to aid hte fight - and if you save her, it doesn't aid you in the fight. None of the citadel ships do.

4. What exactly was the purpose of the geth fleet if not to guard sovereign and what makes everyone thing the geth were fighting citadel ships in the nebulae? That's not in any way what we see in the cutscene..The relay to the citadel is pretty much right on top of the citadel itself..The geth fleet start firing almost immediately once exiting the relay (same with the 5th fleet - I counted at most 3 seconds between exit and firing) so why would the geth be anywhere else?

Diversion..and taking care of the pesky organics.
Of course, the Citadel fleet isn't a cake walk. There are ship fighting all around. The geth have their hands full.
And again - cutscene conveneince. Canonical distances and cutscenes do not match. In an actual depiction of a space battle, you couldn't get two ships on screen. Also, the mass drivers have technicly infinte range (with effective ranges in a hunderd thousand KM)

5. This was a relay fight and the codex mentions that relay fights take place at close range so no, the citadel fleet (what's left of it) is still right there....

It refers to relay blockades/assault, when both sides are right on top of eachother.

6. Acceleration versus turning - There's a huge difference between the two. Turning is easy, accelerating might not be but at knife fight ranges, you're not moving fast at ALL. Look at the cutscene and tell me is there any citadel ship moving quickly? Their pretty much standing still while the geth close in...

Fighting = changing direction. Changing direction = accelerating/deacelerating.
This is both time and fuel consumiong. Even moreso if the fight area is not directly in your flight path, but you have to take a detour.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bleachrude wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it.

A concept called "There is no friction in space"

www.projectrho.com/rocket/misconceptions.php

reat page and I suspect one of the pages ME1 writers worked from when they were coming up with the backstory of the ME-universe especially with regard to heat and the problem of getting rid of it in space...Now...the animators? Eh, not so much.

(go further down the page to the following section)
Rockets Are Not Arrows
Again, I think you're mixing two things up. Moving in one direction and turning in one direction...Hell, the writer even points out how it is an advantage so you can, turn your weapons on the enemy...

At knife-fight ranges as we see in the cutscene, that's ALL the citadel ships need to do...where is the idea coming from that the citadel fleet is not in close and is fighting in the nebulae? The cutsecen clearly shows geth+sovereign relay in, ALL ships head straight for the citadel and start attacking the fleet that is hanging right around the citadel itself... 

Are you missing the point.You're still moving AWAY from your intended destination.
Manouvering is VERY important in space.
A ship may be able to turn aroudn like a ballerina - that might come in handy in a furball, but it still doens't help you if you want to get from A to B.

Also, in space comabt - you do not want to get hit. You won't be going slow. You'll be going as fast you can, evading.
Lot's of fuel and lots of time wasted.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

It depends really....but generally speaking a certain amount sacrifices are acceptable. Would it be OK to have the batarians or krogans or volus or hannar or drell all of these wiped out if it means the reapers are destroyed....absolutely yes. Would it be OK to have humanity or quarians or geth or asari or turians or salarians destroyed to defeat the reapers....absolutely not.

This is based on personal preference if you ask me. 

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Arkitekt wrote...

Uncalled for? People who do not value their happiness above others and actually believe in these sorts of ethics... you have no idea.

Is it not better to be selfless than to be selfish?

[Abraham_uk]

Trouble is that the renegade approach isn't the only way to resolve the situation. If the paragon approach doesn't work at all, then we'll all opt for the renegade approach.

If there are no negative consequences for paragon actions, and plenty of negative consequences for renegade actions, then actions like saving the racni queen become meaningless.

[Destroy Raiden_]

armass wrote...

It depends on lot of things like what the situation is and what means would we need to take to acheive the desired goal. In the end it is rarely worth it, if the damage along the way becomes unthinkable. 

Totally agree the ends don't justify the means 99% of the time.

[AlexXIV]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Trouble is that the renegade approach isn't the only way to resolve the situation. If the paragon approach doesn't work at all, then we'll all opt for the renegade approach.

If there are no negative consequences for paragon actions, and plenty of negative consequences for renegade actions, then actions like saving the racni queen become meaningless.

I could accept that saving the Rachni has negative consequences for the fight vs the Reapers but in the long run, after defeating the Reapers, the Rachni become an accepted race. Because that's why I let her go. Expecting the Rachni to help fighting the Reapers is indeed foolish in my book. I didn't let her go because of that.

[Bleachrude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Are you missing the point.You're still moving AWAY from your intended destination.
Manouvering is VERY important in space.
A ship may be able to turn aroudn like a ballerina - that might come in handy in a furball, but it still doens't help you if you want to get from A to B.

Also, in space comabt - you do not want to get hit. You won't be going slow. You'll be going as fast you can, evading.
Lot's of fuel and lots of time wasted.

You're missing the point and the page you link to itself points it out (Rockets are not arrows).

The fighting is at knife point range...you only need to orient yourself towards the target since the codex itself mentions 
The only reason you accelerate in combat is to close the range so that the opposing ship can't move between the time you fire and the time the shell hits...

The fighting involved is ALL at knife point range. They don't have to accelerate anywhere..Hell, even the cutscene gets it right for once where we see the turian ship turn on its axis but can't accelerate out of the way of Sovereign...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Before Saren and Shepard had their final showdown, control was being transferred to Sovereign (took "a few minutes" to transfer).  According to your squadmate, Sovereign had control of the station at one time (to some capacity).  Saren had already accessed the computer before Shepard arrived.

The virus introduced by Vigil momentarily prevented Saren from taking control (which can be seen with the arms of Citadel station not fully closing). So when Shephard approached Saren was still in the process of trying to regain control and transfer it to Sovereign.

No, Shepard uploaded Vigil's the data file after Saren was dead.  Sovereign was the one gaining/having control.  That's why once Shep declared that "Vigil's data file worked" your squadmate yells at you to hurry and "open the stations arms" to attack Sovereign "before he regains control of the station."

Most DA savers I talk too seem to skip over this line and wonder why that squadmate was yelling at Shepard.  Heard the urgency and not the message I guess...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:24 .

[Yezdigerd]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Damaged and crippled ships would be of little use, when traded wiht fresh ones. And 5th fleet is powerfull enouhg - it had dreadnoughts.

So you said. That wasn't apparent to me in the game though. At Vigil Shepard is upset about how the reapers can wipe out the Council and the "entire Citadel fleet" in a single surprise attack.  The reapers two pronged decapitation of the galaxy's political and military power. and Vigil responds "such were our fate". The latter seemed to be regarded as a devastating blow. That made me believe that the Citadel fleet was a great part of the naval tonnage in Council space. Since the Citadel was the heart of the mass relay network it made sense it had a large "home fleet" on station I thought.
Since the game made an issue of how small the human navy was compared to the Council races, I didn't even occur to me  that the human 5th fleet had the firepower to accomplish what the "entire Citadel fleet" couldn't do at the seat of their power.

Why are you assuming the fight is over? Why are you assuming the rest of the citadel fleet will fall in line? They don't take orders from Shep and hteir orders are to evacuate the council.

The Citadel is the heart of the council, the symbol of power, the capital, why wouldn't they do everything in their power to defend it? Also again, why would the geth fight ships that just want to get away, when they can ensure victory by protecting Sovereign?

Haver you seen ANY citadel fleet ship join the 5th fleet in the attack? no.

Nope, just as I didn't see anyone destroying the Geth in the renegade version, it doesn't make me assume it didn't happen.  Also this is hindsight, thus totally irrelevant for the decision in question.
In hindsight we know that the paragon decision to save the council was the correct one, unless you are a human supremacist of course.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[LTiberious]

Dammit... You speak too much....

Yes.They Do.

/thread

[Yezdigerd]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it.

A concept called "There is no friction in space"

www.projectrho.com/rocket/misconceptions.php

Still don't get it, and since Mass Effect technology is science fantasy, ships perform as the authors want them to perform, If Mass effect field can reduce "the mass" of a ship what is to say it can't affect relative speed and trajectories?

[Dean_the_Young]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it.

A concept called "There is no friction in space"

www.projectrho.com/rocket/misconceptions.php

Still don't get it, and since Mass Effect technology is science fantasy, ships perform as the authors want them to perform, If Mass effect field can reduce "the mass" of a ship what is to say it can't affect relative speed and trajectories?

Well, the fact that the Normandy is entirely exceptional because it's the first-of-its-kind drive core that can use e-zero to move without thrusters, which other ships lack?

Speed is, of course, basic (it's the basis of FTL), but mobility is distinctly non-normal.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[Olem]

No, I'm not Anders Behring Breivik.

[mauro2222]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Uncalled for? People who do not value their happiness above others and actually believe in these sorts of ethics... you have no idea.

Is it not better to be selfless than to be selfish?

Never! They want all for themselves, and if they help... ha! "IF" they help. And if they help, they want something in return, always... even if they moved a single finger.

Solidarity doesn't exists in their dictionary. Help = something in exchange.
A living shame.

[GreenDragon37]

Suprez30 wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

at the cost of loosing everything we know. yes, some sacrifices would be hard, some will be hard. i will avoid sacrificing lives if possible, but i will if it is necessary to win this war

And how do you know it's neccessary? Shepard Killed 100 000 batarians and did that change anything?
The difference between a hero and a monster can be very tin and I would never have jeopardized what make me a human being. The Shepard that murdered 100K batarians was not my Shepard. Anyway.

Maybe the galaxies will be wiped than be it . i will do everything to stop it but I won't Kill millions of innocent to do it.

This is a dangerous view to have. If we had it your way, the galaxy would already be lost. Including those 300,000 you tried to save. <_<

[XEternalXDreamsX]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

at the cost of loosing everything we know. yes, some sacrifices would be hard, some will be hard. i will avoid sacrificing lives if possible, but i will if it is necessary to win this war

And how do you know it's neccessary? Shepard Killed 100 000 batarians and did that change anything?
The difference between a hero and a monster can be very tin and I would never have jeopardized what make me a human being. The Shepard that murdered 100K batarians was not my Shepard. Anyway.

Maybe the galaxies will be wiped than be it . i will do everything to stop it but I won't Kill millions of innocent to do it.

This is a dangerous view to have. If we had it your way, the galaxy would already be lost. Including those 300,000 you tried to save. <_<

Real past wars show there is no point. One powergrabs for it's citizens while the other powergrabs for it's own. Even if it's for the benefits of the higher figures. Honestly, ME3 morality system should really blur into the grey and your opinions will determine right over wrong.

[Swampthing500]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

I finished ME 1 again the other day. Usually the Keepers responded to a signal from Sovereign and summoned the other Reapers. Since the Keepers no longer respond, he needed someone else to do it: Saren.

Incorrect.

The Keepers role is to open the relay. Because the Keepers did not, it's up to Sovereign to manually open it. This is why Sovereign has to be at the Citadel at all and expose itself.

Saren's role was twofold: to facilitate the closing of the Citadel to protect Sovereign while it worked, and to make Sovereign's job faster by helping overcome the Prothean sabatoge.  Saren's role was not to open the relay to darkspace in lieu of the Keepers, and Sovereign was not incapable of taking control without Saren.

Nope. The discussion with Vigil makes it clear. Saren had to bypass the Citadel defences to give Sovereign full control. The Prothean virus temporarily gives control of the Citadel to Shepard, stopping Saren from immediately transfering control to Sovereign.

Soverign was incapable. That was the purpose of of finding the Conduit. Vigil makes it crystal clear: an agent is required to transfer control.

[GodWood]

Olemguy wrote...
No, I'm not Anders Behring Breivik.

So you wouldn't kill one white baby to save 100 black babies?

You racist bastard.

[Swampthing500]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...



What from 9.50 onwards and Vigil tells you why Saren is needed.

If Sovereign had already taken control of the station, he does not need to possess Saren's body to kill you. All he needs to do is to wait and bypass the program given by Vigil and bring the Reapers in.

Since he takes control of Saren, it means that control as not been manually transfered. He needs to kill Shepard and use the body to transfer control.

That video clearly states that Saren will transfer control to Sovereign, who will override the current protocols.
Vigil also said that that his file will corrupt the security protocols and give Shep TEMPORARY control of the station.

Saren already transfered control (he was alkreadydone with the console) and Sovy was overriding. When Shep put in vigils file, he TEMPORARILY halted Sovereign.

If that were the case, then there would be no need for Sovereign to take over Saren's body.

We saw what happened once Shepard killed it. Sovereign was stunned and lost it's shields, which allowed the Alliance fleet to destroy it.

Obviously taking control of Saren's body was risky. Why do such a thing unless there was a need to complete the transfer.

TIME. That's why.

Sovereing might regain control in several minutes, but with a whole 5th fleet attacking him, and what's left of the Citadel fleet soon to join, wouldn't it be smart to hurry it up?

Additionally, Sovereign was docked so he could take control once Saren finished the override. Obviously this required a physical connection.

He could have undocked, wiped the fleet out, and re-docked once Saren transfered control. Was there any REAL need to stay and wait?

The fleet didn't seem to be doing much damage to Sovereign. It was only when he was stunned that the shields dropped and he was killed.

Again, the game makes it clear there was a huge risk in possessing Sovereign's body. There would be no need to take that risk is Sovereign already had control.

[Swampthing500]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Before Saren and Shepard had their final showdown, control was being transferred to Sovereign (took "a few minutes" to transfer).  According to your squadmate, Sovereign had control of the station at one time (to some capacity).  Saren had already accessed the computer before Shepard arrived.

The virus introduced by Vigil momentarily prevented Saren from taking control (which can be seen with the arms of Citadel station not fully closing). So when Shephard approached Saren was still in the process of trying to regain control and transfer it to Sovereign.

No, Shepard uploaded Vigil's the data file after Saren was dead.  Sovereign was the one gaining/having control.  That's why once Shep declared that "Vigil's data file worked" your squadmate yells at you to hurry and "open the stations arms" to attack Sovereign "before he regains control of the station."

Most DA savers I talk too seem to skip over this line and wonder why that squadmate was yelling at Shepard.  Heard the urgency and not the message I guess...

I did get the progression of events mixed up a bit. I watched the ending again here:



There is no mention of regaining control of the station FROM Sovereign.

Saren was in the process of transfering control, but Shepard interrupted him. The Prothean virus allowed them to assume direct control (heh) and open the station arms to attack Sovereign.

As I said before, there would be no need for Sovereign to possess Saren's body unless control had not yet been transfered.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:05 .