529 réponses à ce sujet

[Yezdigerd]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When you grasp the edges of a void, it begins to take shape. Inference is a wonderful ability to have.

Wow you really are to smart for me. I bow to your superior inference.

[AlexXIV]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When you grasp the edges of a void, it begins to take shape. Inference is a wonderful ability to have.

Wow you really are to smart for me. I bow to your superior inference.

Don't worry, he is probably too smart for his own good.

[Yezdigerd]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That's just DN's. What about Carriers? Cruisers? Frigates?
Humans are said to have a farely powerfull military.[/quote]

Well it wasn't stated to my knowledge, Given that the council races span far more stars they should have a greater need for patrols and escort ships then the system alliance. In particular the Asari, with the galaxies largest economy based on trade I would expect to have a dispropotionate large numbers of smaller ships to their capital ships. but in general I thought the dreadnoughts would be a pretty accurate gauge of naval strength, since no efforts were made to limit the builds of frigates and cruisers or carriers, I guess I kinda assumed it worked like the real life counterpart.

I guess it comes down to how much of "humans are special" you believe in.

[quote]Also, it wasn't stupid. You forget, that one one anticipated the 5th Fleet. Sovereign was safe inside the Citadel. So what's the Geth fleet to do?[/quote]

I expected them to fight in such a manner that they could always interpose themselves between a hostile force and Sovereign. They have nothing of significance to gain by the battle itself.


[quote]
the DA or the council won't matter when the relay to dark space is opened. [/quote]

[quote]The Council and the Citadel fleet don't know about it.[/quote]

[/quote]

Yes and? What I'm talking about is the way Sovereign conducts the battle, just let every ship who wants run away.

[Dean_the_Young]

double post

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...
I think saving the Council was the smartest move since uncontested, unified and coherent leadership of galactic government would be a huge asset in co-ordinating defences and fighting against the Reapers.

Had Sovereign suceeded, all of that would be irrelevant.

Good thing I killed Saren before he could transfer control. The destruction of the Geth ships achieved when saving the Council also allowed the Alliance to attack Sovereign without worried about being outflanked.

And, again, apparently Vigil's own description of his own data file doesn't matter.

But hey, what does Vigil know! Hell, what do the story designers know about their own lore, about the capabilities of their own created space ships, in their own situational context they created?

Reject their reality and substitute your own!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...
I think saving the Council was the smartest move since uncontested, unified and coherent leadership of galactic government would be a huge asset in co-ordinating defences and fighting against the Reapers.

Had Sovereign suceeded, all of that would be irrelevant.

Good thing I killed Saren before he could transfer control. The destruction of the Geth ships achieved when saving the Council also allowed the Alliance to attack Sovereign without worried about being outflanked.

Except they couldn't be outflanked since the Geth fleet was busy.
And except everything else.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...
I think saving the Council was the smartest move since uncontested, unified and coherent leadership of galactic government would be a huge asset in co-ordinating defences and fighting against the Reapers.

Had Sovereign suceeded, all of that would be irrelevant.

If at this point sovereign succeeding would have been the scale I'd agree. But it wasn't Shepard had already defeated Saren, Sovereigns plan started failing. Sovereign didn't want the citadel wings closed for no reason. He wanted it because he knew he couldn't survive the attacks from the fleet forever. So closing the citadel and shutting out the enemies was crucial. When that failed as Shepard managed to stop Saren, Sovereign probably already knew things don't go well for him. Why else would he divert energy to fight Shepard instead of for example fighting the Alliance fleet? He wanted to at least kill Shepard before he goes down. That way he had maybe a chance to still open the relay for the Reaper fleet. If he could have taken on the Alliance fleet he could actually have destroyed them first and then taken the Citadel.

Sovereign wasn't already defeated.
Sovereign was confident enough in his voctory that he didn't bother to engage the Alliance fleet proper.

Why would he divert energy to Saren? Because Sheppard is a nusiance and might try to interfere again. So best to eliminate that eventuality.
Time. Time is always the issue. He propobably could have undocked and fought the fleet, but as he was still overriding, that was the priority.

Did he have to stay docked to control Saren? No, why would he? So why did he stay docked? Because he was attempting to activate the relay.

So at this point there wasn't a question that Sovereign would lose. The question was how much damage he could do before he can go down. So it is valid to say that saving the DA was probably a sacrifice. But it was not unnecessary or foolish. It may gain you more than centuries of politicians trying to talk their way into the place Shepard can bring them in the blink of an eye, with one decision. And the key to beating the reapers has always been galactic unity. Logically only the Reapers profit from different species leading petty wars instead of preparing for them.

No, Sovereign still had a very good shot at victory.

And different races having petty wars = strong military. Conflict drives the military-industrial complex.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Except they couldn't be outflanked since the Geth fleet was busy.
And except everything else.

And what would have stopped the geth fleet if Sovereign had told them to assist him later while the Alliance ships are shooting at him?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yezdigerd wrote...
Well it wasn't stated to my knowledge, Given that the council races span far more stars they should have a greater need for patrols and escort ships then the system alliance. In particular the Asari, with the galaxies largest economy based on trade I would expect to have a dispropotionate large numbers of smaller ships to their capital ships. but in general I thought the dreadnoughts would be a pretty accurate gauge of naval strength, since no efforts were made to limit the builds of frigates and cruisers or carriers, I guess I kinda assumed it worked like the real life counterpart.

I guess it comes down to how much of "humans are special" you believe in.

Carriers are a human ivention and not limited by any treaty. So yes..humans are special in a sense.

Also, it wasn't stupid. You forget, that one one anticipated the 5th Fleet. Sovereign was safe inside the Citadel. So what's the Geth fleet to do?

I expected them to fight in such a manner that they could always interpose themselves between a hostile force and Sovereign. They have nothing of significance to gain by the battle itself.

Sovereign was behind a closed relay AND the thick shielding of the Citadel.
The only force hostile to Sovereign was hte Citadel fleet and hte Geth moved to engage.

You're suffering from a severe case of "general after the battle"

Yes and? What I'm talking about is the way Sovereign conducts the battle, just let every ship who wants run away.

Eh? Clarification pls.
Geth are handling the outside battle, nto Sovereign.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Except they couldn't be outflanked since the Geth fleet was busy.
And except everything else.

And what would have stopped the geth fleet if Sovereign had told them to assist him later while the Alliance ships are shooting at him?

The Citadel Fleet..which was still there.


Also, time and distance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Except they couldn't be outflanked since the Geth fleet was busy.
And except everything else.

And what would have stopped the geth fleet if Sovereign had told them to assist him later while the Alliance ships are shooting at him?

The Citadel Fleet they were still fighting.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...The Citadel Fleet they were still fighting.

They could just pull out of there and go for the Alliance ships. It's not like the Citadel ships have them in a lock or something.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...The Citadel Fleet they were still fighting.

They could just pull out of there and go for the Alliance ships.

Not really. The joys of tactically bad positioning in space-naval combat.

It's not like the Citadel ships have them in a lock or something.

Pysically? No. Tactically? Yes.

The Geth fleet can't fly forward because the Citadel fleet is there. They can't simply zoom backwards or laterally because their propulsion is on their back end of the ship, not the front. If they try and reorient by turning around, it will mean dropping their fire at the Citadel forces in the slow turn-around of reorienting, during which the Citadel forces will massacre them.

The Geth aren't in a position to disengage because, well, the Citadel fleet is there to destroy them if they try.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...The Citadel Fleet they were still fighting.

They could just pull out of there and go for the Alliance ships. It's not like the Citadel ships have them in a lock or something.

Disengaging in space is NOT easy. Also, that means exposing your rear to the Citadel fleet.
Forward fixed guns, rmember?

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Sovereign wasn't already defeated.
Sovereign was confident enough in his voctory that he didn't bother to engage the Alliance fleet proper.

Why would he divert energy to Saren? Because Sheppard is a nusiance and might try to interfere again. So best to eliminate that eventuality.
Time. Time is always the issue. He propobably could have undocked and fought the fleet, but as he was still overriding, that was the priority.

Did he have to stay docked to control Saren? No, why would he? So why did he stay docked? Because he was attempting to activate the relay.

No, Sovereign still had a very good shot at victory.

And different races having petty wars = strong military. Conflict drives the military-industrial complex.

If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost. No matter what Shepard commanded the fleet to do btw. Shepard was more than a nuisance. When Shepard killed Saren-Sovereign the thing fell apart. Obviously killing Shepard was a priority for Sovereign at this point or why would he risk a critical weakness to fight Shep? I couldn't say if he needed to stay docked to control Saren. But obviously it stayed docked and couldn't active the relay in time. That it is, before it was shot to pieces. I don't even know what is to argue there because we all saw what happened. The only chance for Sovereign to succeed was Saren. Saren could have closed the Citadel long enough to prefent anyone to shoot him down before he opens the relay.
 
Shep crossed this plan opened the citadel so the alliance fleet could destroy him. The whole video sequence shows how Sovereign directly heads towards the Citadel ignoring all fire and enemies because the plan was to get in there quickly and close it. And for no lesser reason than that Sovereign could not have lasted long enough in enemy fire. We don't even know how exactly Sovereign managed to push through like he did. Maybe his shields were low already, maybe his energy was, maybe his armor was penetrated already. We don't know Sovereign's status at any point. Neither before, nor in the middle of battle. All we know that at the end for some reason it 'fell' from the Citadel and was an easy prey for the alliance right after Shep killed Saren-Sovereign.

So anyway, saving the DA wasn't a risk to lose. Not to mention it could still be of use to shoot Sovereign down after he docked at the citadel and Shep opened the wings again.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...The Citadel Fleet they were still fighting.

They could just pull out of there and go for the Alliance ships.

Not really. The joys of tactically bad positioning in space-naval combat.

It's not like the Citadel ships have them in a lock or something.

Pysically? No. Tactically? Yes.

The Geth fleet can't fly forward because the Citadel fleet is there. They can't simply zoom backwards or laterally because their propulsion is on their back end of the ship, not the front. If they try and reorient by turning around, it will mean dropping their fire at the Citadel forces in the slow turn-around of reorienting, during which the Citadel forces will massacre them.

The Geth aren't in a position to disengage because, well, the Citadel fleet is there to destroy them if they try.

What he said - also, see about changing direction in space. It kinda takes more time the faster you go. Combine it with the Citadels arms doing a wonderfull job of blocking various approach and fire avenues....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Calinstel wrote...

Forgive me if I missed this in an earlier post but...

Vigil stated that 'the file would give temporary control' to Shepard.

Vigils file corrupts the security protocols. It's there to BUY TIME.

[Yezdigerd]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
Well it wasn't stated to my knowledge, Given that the council races span far more stars they should have a greater need for patrols and escort ships then the system alliance. In particular the Asari, with the galaxies largest economy based on trade I would expect to have a dispropotionate large numbers of smaller ships to their capital ships. but in general I thought the dreadnoughts would be a pretty accurate gauge of naval strength, since no efforts were made to limit the builds of frigates and cruisers or carriers, I guess I kinda assumed it worked like the real life counterpart.

I guess it comes down to how much of "humans are special" you believe in.[/quote]

[quote]Carriers are a human ivention and not limited by any treaty. So yes..humans are special in a sense.[/quote]

Still, the point is that the Council naval forces are much, much larger, I didn't see any npc exclaim, "it's cool, carriers are superior to dreadnoughts anyway so we will kick their asses. (In fact I don't think I even saw a carrier.)


[quote]
[quote]Also, it wasn't stupid. You forget, that one one anticipated the 5th Fleet. Sovereign was safe inside the Citadel. So what's the Geth fleet to do?[/quote]

I expected them to fight in such a manner that they could always interpose themselves between a hostile force and Sovereign. They have nothing of significance to gain by the battle itself.[/quote]


[quote]Sovereign was behind a closed relay AND the thick shielding of the Citadel.
The only force hostile to Sovereign was hte Citadel fleet and hte Geth moved to engage.

[quote]You're suffering from a severe case of "general after the battle"[/quote][/quote]

Nah, all I expect are straight prioritizes. the Citadel is extremelly small 10th of kilometers, I find it incomprehensible that Geth both managed and chose to conduct the battle in such a way that they couldn't intercept attacks against the arms open or not. The 5th fleet didn't arrive by magic, which means this contingency could have been anticipated.



[quote]
Yes and? What I'm talking about is the way Sovereign conducts the battle, just let every ship who wants run away.
[/quote]

[quote]Eh? Clarification pls.
Geth are handling the outside battle, nto Sovereign.[/quote]


I mean that the Geth should fight defensivily and I assumed are directed by Sovereign , it's their god afterall.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:15 .

[Swampthing500]

Calinstel wrote...

Forgive me if I missed this in an earlier post but...

Vigil stated that 'the file would give temporary control' to Shepard.

The Citadel is controlled by either a shackled AI or a very complex VI. The file from Vigil does not wrest control of the Citadel from Sovereign or Saren but from the Citadel itself.

Saren had not yet completed the transfer of control so the Citadel was still controlling itself. All Vigils file did was hack the Citadel systems. In this, Vigil and it's statements are still true. Had Saren recovered the file from Vigil, then he could have given control to Sovereign quickly, as is, he had to work through the normal system protocols.

Damn straight!

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

Most pointless post ever. Being confident when you have every reason to be confident does not make one an idiot.

No matter what Shepard commanded the fleet to do btw. Shepard was more than a nuisance. When Shepard killed Saren-Sovereign the thing fell apart. Obviously killing Shepard was a priority for Sovereign at this point or why would he risk a critical weakness to fight Shep? I couldn't say if he needed to stay docked to control Saren. But obviously it stayed docked and couldn't active the relay in time. That it is, before it was shot to pieces. I don't even know what is to argue there because we all saw what happened. The only chance for Sovereign to succeed was Saren. Saren could have closed the Citadel long enough to prefent anyone to shoot him down before he opens the relay.

No. Saren is not part of the citadel and is controled by implants. There is no need to stay conected to the Citadel.
Hence, there is no need for Sovereign to stay there and take fire.
The only explanation for whay it does stay there is if there is somethnig keeping it. It can't be Saren. So it has to be the corrupted security protocols, trough which Sovereign is attempting to break trough (and for that he has to stay docked).

Shep crossed this plan opened the citadel so the alliance fleet could destroy him. The whole video sequence shows how Sovereign directly heads towards the Citadel ignoring all fire and enemies because the plan was to get in there quickly and close it. And for no lesser reason than that Sovereign could not have lasted long enough in enemy fire. We don't even know how exactly Sovereign managed to push through like he did. Maybe his shields were low already, maybe his energy was, maybe his armor was penetrated already. We don't know Sovereign's status at any point. Neither before, nor in the middle of battle. All we know that at the end for some reason it 'fell' from the Citadel and was an easy prey for the alliance right after Shep killed Saren-Sovereign.

Yes, because a ship with damaged shields is capable of taking the firepower of an entire fleet and scaring that fleet into fleeing<_<...evne togh it's immobile and os cannot evade OR bring all of it's weapons to bear.


And let's ignore the devs stating wihout Shep destroying the Avatar, Sovereign would have lasted A LOT longer.

So anyway, saving the DA wasn't a risk to lose. Not to mention it could still be of use to shoot Sovereign down after he docked at the citadel and Shep opened the wings again.

It was damaged and running away.
And IIRC, it was dead in the water. It's not shooting at anything, especially not at Sovereign who is inside the Citadel.

[Swampthing500]

Calinstel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Forgive me if I missed this in an earlier post but...

Vigil stated that 'the file would give temporary control' to Shepard.

Vigils file corrupts the security protocols. It's there to BUY TIME.

I agree.  But from the posts before, it seemed as if some believed Sovereign had control already and Shepard took it away.  False assumption but it did seem to be running around in the thread.

I've been referencing the ME wiki and videos of the ending and people still believe Sovereign had control, and that the file stops that control.

The file gave Shepard control of the Citadel so he could open the arms, but Saren had not transfered control to Sovereign before he was killed.

[DarthCaine]

Not in BioWare games they don't

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Carriers are a human ivention and not limited by any treaty. So yes..humans are special in a sense.[/quote]

Still, the point is that the Council naval forces are much, much larger, I didn't see any npc exclaim, "it's cool, carriers are superior to dreadnoughts anyway so we will kick their asses. (In fact I don't think I even saw a carrier.)[/quote]

Combined naval force of hte 3 races? Sure tehy are bigger. Did I ever say otherwise?

But, for their size, humantiy has a very powerfull navy.




[quote][quote]
Sovereign was behind a closed relay AND the thick shielding of the Citadel.
The only force hostile to Sovereign was hte Citadel fleet and hte Geth moved to engage.
[/quote]

Nah, all expect is straight prioritizes. the Citadel is extremelly small 10th of kilometers, I find it incomprehensible that Geth both managed and chose to conduct the battle in such a way that they couldn't intercept attacks against the arms open or not. The 5th fleet didn't arrive by magic, which means this contingency could have been anticipated.[/qutoe]

Citadel is no small station and the battle takes place in the space around it. Space is big. Why do you assume all ships are hugging the Citadels hull?

How many contingencies does one plan for anyway? Everything possible and impossible? Sovereign was safe and the turn of events was highly unlikely. Effectively engaging the Citadel forces was a priority- it was a clear danger, and changing your deployment to something less effective just to account for a highly unliekly possible danger is opposite of smart.

As I said - general after the battle.



[quote]
I mean that the Geth should fight defensivily and I assumed are directed by Sovereign , it's their god afterall.
[/quote]

I don't think he's the micro-managing type. Besides, he's busy with by-passing hte Citadel security protocols.