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[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

Most pointless post ever. Being confident when you have every reason to be confident does not make one an idiot.

No matter what Shepard commanded the fleet to do btw. Shepard was more than a nuisance. When Shepard killed Saren-Sovereign the thing fell apart. Obviously killing Shepard was a priority for Sovereign at this point or why would he risk a critical weakness to fight Shep? I couldn't say if he needed to stay docked to control Saren. But obviously it stayed docked and couldn't active the relay in time. That it is, before it was shot to pieces. I don't even know what is to argue there because we all saw what happened. The only chance for Sovereign to succeed was Saren. Saren could have closed the Citadel long enough to prefent anyone to shoot him down before he opens the relay.

No. Saren is not part of the citadel and is controled by implants. There is no need to stay conected to the Citadel.
Hence, there is no need for Sovereign to stay there and take fire.
The only explanation for whay it does stay there is if there is somethnig keeping it. It can't be Saren. So it has to be the corrupted security protocols, trough which Sovereign is attempting to break trough (and for that he has to stay docked).

Shep crossed this plan opened the citadel so the alliance fleet could destroy him. The whole video sequence shows how Sovereign directly heads towards the Citadel ignoring all fire and enemies because the plan was to get in there quickly and close it. And for no lesser reason than that Sovereign could not have lasted long enough in enemy fire. We don't even know how exactly Sovereign managed to push through like he did. Maybe his shields were low already, maybe his energy was, maybe his armor was penetrated already. We don't know Sovereign's status at any point. Neither before, nor in the middle of battle. All we know that at the end for some reason it 'fell' from the Citadel and was an easy prey for the alliance right after Shep killed Saren-Sovereign.

Yes, because a ship with damaged shields is capable of taking the firepower of an entire fleet and scaring that fleet into fleeing<_<...evne togh it's immobile and os cannot evade OR bring all of it's weapons to bear.


And let's ignore the devs stating wihout Shep destroying the Avatar, Sovereign would have lasted A LOT longer.

So anyway, saving the DA wasn't a risk to lose. Not to mention it could still be of use to shoot Sovereign down after he docked at the citadel and Shep opened the wings again.

It was damaged and running away.
And IIRC, it was dead in the water. It's not shooting at anything, especially not at Sovereign who is inside the Citadel.

Sovereign didn't have every reason to be confident. The attack on the citadel was a desperate act and he probably knew that Shepard was on Saren's tail since Saren saw him landing on Ilos. I don't know where you get this confidence crap from.

Also devs confirming that Sovereign would have lasted much longer doesn't say how long. If someone as genius as Sovereign or you (sarcasm) comes up with a plan like that, which basically consists of ruthlessly breaking through enemy lines to get into safety, then it isn't all too confident into it's defenses.

Do we know how much the DA was damaged? Running away is no evidence for anything. It is called tactical retreat to regroup. If the gun was still operating and they still could move, why not use it? Maybe getting the Council to safety was an issue, however I didn't see anything hinting that they could not fight anymore if they had to.

I don't see anyone fleeing as well. Getting the DA into safety may have to do with protecting the Council more than running from battle. I didn't think you of all people would let heroism get in the way of a reasonable strategy.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

I really have to ask.

Are you involved in any sort of competitive occupation?

[Dean_the_Young]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Forgive me if I missed this in an earlier post but...

Vigil stated that 'the file would give temporary control' to Shepard.

Vigils file corrupts the security protocols. It's there to BUY TIME.

I agree.  But from the posts before, it seemed as if some believed Sovereign had control already and Shepard took it away.  False assumption but it did seem to be running around in the thread.

I've been referencing the ME wiki and videos of the ending and people still believe Sovereign had control, and that the file stops that control.

The file gave Shepard control of the Citadel so he could open the arms, but Saren had not transfered control to Sovereign before he was killed.

Perhaps if you referenced Vigil, rather than parts of the wiki that don't actually reflect what is said was going on...

Considering, you know, that Vigil is the one that tells you what his data file does, and it's limitations.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Sovereign didn't have every reason to be confident. The attack on the citadel was a desperate act and he probably knew that Shepard was on Saren's tail since Saren saw him landing on Ilos. I don't know where you get this confidence crap from.

Indeed. Sovereign is just a super-sentient-starships with an army. And indoctrination. And a way to summon more of his kind.
Clearly Sheppard is a massive threat.

<_<

Whre are the rolleyes smileys?

Also devs confirming that Sovereign would have lasted much longer doesn't say how long. If someone as genius as Sovereign or you (sarcasm) comes up with a plan like that, which basically consists of ruthlessly breaking through enemy lines to get into safety, then it isn't all too confident into it's defenses.

Or he jsut doesn't give a damn about those insects.
Seriously, you're using Sovereign ramming trough a cruiser without taking a scratch as a sign of weakness????

And devs said a LOT longer. Emphasis.
He would have wiped out the 5th Fleet.

Do we know how much the DA was damaged? Running away is no evidence for anything. It is called tactical retreat to regroup. If the gun was still operating and they still could move, why not use it? Maybe getting the Council to savety was an issue, however I didn't see anything hinting that they could not fight anymore if they had to.

1) "Dead in the water" = not moving.
2) It gets destroyed several moments later....yeah. I'd say it wasn't in good shape.
3) Does the Council want the DA to fight? Shep can't overrule the Council.
4) Can the DA even take a shot at Sovereign from where it is? Those Citadel arms are friggin big and in the way.

I don't see anyone fleeing as well. Getting the DA into safety may have to do with protecting the Council more than running from battle. I didn't think you of all people would let heroism get in the way of a reasonable strategy.

Since when is the Council reasonable?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:25 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

I really have to ask.

Are you involved in any sort of competitive occupation?

You mean something in the scale of galactic extinction? Currently not. If you think this situation is comparable with a soccer match ... then I have nothing to add.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

I really have to ask.

Are you involved in any sort of competitive occupation?

Why are you asking him?
He will just reply and you will have to do more headdesking.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

I really have to ask.

Are you involved in any sort of competitive occupation?

You mean something in the scale of galatic extinction? Currently not. If you think this situation is comparable with a soccer match ... then I have nothing to add.

The scale doesn't matter: it's actually irrelevant. You could take an in-depth look at anything from chess, to warfare, to gambling for pennies. 

You could take just about any competitive activity in the world and understand the fatal flaw in your argument.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

I really have to ask.

Are you involved in any sort of competitive occupation?

Why are you asking him?
He will just reply and you will have to do more headdesking.

I rather have the feeling you have done too much head desking already. Better cut it.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

I really have to ask.

Are you involved in any sort of competitive occupation?

You mean something in the scale of galatic extinction? Currently not. If you think this situation is comparable with a soccer match ... then I have nothing to add.

The scale doesn't matter: it's actually irrelevant. You could take an in-depth look at anything from chess, to warfare, to gambling for pennies. 

You could take just about any competitive activity in the world and understand the fatal flaw in your argument.

Oh the scale doesn't matter. Thanks then for the enlightenment. I don't really think you know what you are talking about right now. But don't worry, there are topics you can excell again.

[Lotion Soronarr]

With all the posts of yours I read, I developed especially thick skin on my forehead. I can crack open rocks now. Tomorrow - diamonds!

[AlexXIV]

That's good for you really. I don't know what to say other than that I am usually rather reasonable and understanding, but I have no clue what you are talking about in most of your posts. It just seems to be a bunch of preaching, paired with whining and obsession. But hey, as long as you are having fun it is all fine.

[Swampthing500]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Forgive me if I missed this in an earlier post but...

Vigil stated that 'the file would give temporary control' to Shepard.

Vigils file corrupts the security protocols. It's there to BUY TIME.

I agree.  But from the posts before, it seemed as if some believed Sovereign had control already and Shepard took it away.  False assumption but it did seem to be running around in the thread.

I've been referencing the ME wiki and videos of the ending and people still believe Sovereign had control, and that the file stops that control.

The file gave Shepard control of the Citadel so he could open the arms, but Saren had not transfered control to Sovereign before he was killed.

Perhaps if you referenced Vigil, rather than parts of the wiki that don't actually reflect what is said was going on...

Considering, you know, that Vigil is the one that tells you what his data file does, and it's limitations.

Parts of the Wiki I referenced:

Main storyline of ME1

Bio of Saren

Videos I referenced:

Mass Effect ending

Conversation with Vigil.

Vigil mentions temporary control. Yes, temporary control that bypasses the normal safe-guards and protocols of the station. Saren took control to close the arms, but had not transfered control to Sovereign when he was killed.

The temporary control allowed Shepard to bypass the normal defences of the station and open the arms, not stop Sovereign from opening the relay.

Remember, if Saren had control, he just needed to wait the program out. Possessing Saren's body was risky, and the fact that Sovereign did so communicated that he still needed to transfer control.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Disengaging in space is NOT easy. Also, that means exposing your rear to the Citadel fleet.
Forward fixed guns, rmember?

Not stuck on a two dimensional grid, remember? Just fly over the guns.

I also never said that it's easy, I said that it's possible.

They could have went for a suicide run if Sovereign told them to. He was their god, after all.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Someone With Mass]

Calinstel wrote...
Pulling a Captain Kirk here? 

His pattern indicates...two-dimensional thinking. 

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.

I really have to ask.

Are you involved in any sort of competitive occupation?

You mean something in the scale of galatic extinction? Currently not. If you think this situation is comparable with a soccer match ... then I have nothing to add.

The scale doesn't matter: it's actually irrelevant. You could take an in-depth look at anything from chess, to warfare, to gambling for pennies. 

You could take just about any competitive activity in the world and understand the fatal flaw in your argument.

Oh the scale doesn't matter. Thanks then for the enlightenment. I don't really think you know what you are talking about right now. But don't worry, there are topics you can excell again.

Where's the eye roll when you need it?

Losing is not a conditional for someone being an idiot. In every zero-sum competitive activity, someone is going to win, and someone is going to lose. There is not a meaningful correlation simply between 'you lose = you idiot' after a point, because even when two capable parties oppose eachother one is still going to lose.

The two best chess masters in the world will still have one winner, and one loser after long enough. The two best boxers will have only one champion. Two contestants on a game show will have a tie breaker to determine a winner.

Good people also lose. Great people lose. It is inherent in any win-lose setting. Losing does not make you a loser. Idiocy comes from why people lose. Not all failures are evidence of failing: upsets do happen, gambles beyond your control can succede, and changes beyond reasonable consideration do sometimes occur. It's a fact of strategy that you have to balance competing demands with limited resources.


Sovereign's defeat does not mark him as an idiot because Sovereign's fall wasn't a result of idiocy. It was a result of an extensive number of incredibly unlikely occurances that Sovereign did make appropriate measures against and did have reasonable reason to believe would work. Shepard had to achieve a long series of unlikely successes in order to make Sovereign vulnerable.

If any one of a large number of events had occured, Sovereign's plan would have succeded: if Vigil had not been able to endure for 50,000 years, if Joker hadn't been able to put the Mako in a landing zone far smaller than anyone thought, if the Geth army had slowed Shepard for another twenty seconds before the conduit, if Shepard had been stalled long enough on the ascent up the tower and by an improved Saren, if the Avatar had been able to kill Shepard... and even before that, if Ashley/Kaiden hadn't triggered the beacon for Shepard to interface, if Benezia hadn't been able to resist indoctrination to give the Mu Relay location, if the Geth had succeded in overruning Feros and destroying the cipher, if the Geth had reached Liara first.


'If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.' is idiocy. Sovereign had every reason to be confident in his victory, and he lost for reasons entirely separate from idiocy.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:53 .

[Yezdigerd]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Carriers are a human ivention and not limited by any treaty. So yes..humans are special in a sense.

Still, the point is that the Council naval forces are much, much larger, I didn't see any npc exclaim, "it's cool, carriers are superior to dreadnoughts anyway so we will kick their asses. (In fact I don't think I even saw a carrier.)

Combined naval force of hte 3 races? Sure tehy are bigger. Did I ever say otherwise?

But, for their size, humantiy has a very powerfull navy.Combined naval force of hte 3 races? Sure tehy are bigger. Did I ever say otherwise?

But, for their size, humantiy has a very powerfull navy.

Right, my point was that I didn't even occur to me that 5th fleet could defeat Sovereign alone by brute force, when the "entire citadel fleet" failed to do so. Hence holding the 5th fleet back would supply no military advantage, and letting Council die was a political decision. Once you disposed of them, I expected the fleets to join forces and defeat Sovereign and his Geth in concert.

Sovereign was behind a closed relay AND the thick shielding of the Citadel.
The only force hostile to Sovereign was hte Citadel fleet and hte Geth moved to engage.

Nah, all expect is straight prioritizes. the Citadel is extremelly small 10th of kilometers, I find it incomprehensible that Geth both managed and chose to conduct the battle in such a way that they couldn't intercept attacks against the arms open or not. The 5th fleet didn't arrive by magic, which means this contingency could have been anticipated.[/qutoe]

Citadel is no small station and the battle takes place in the space around it. Space is big. Why do you assume all ships are hugging the Citadels hull?

The citadel is 80 kilometers long(IIRC), surely you agree thats a small area for a space battle? It's like 45 minutes in a car. To FTL capable spaceship it should be a calculating error. The geth's objective is to take the station and protect Sovereign. Which suggests they would stay close to the station.

How many contingencies does one plan for anyway? Everything possible and impossible? Sovereign was safe and the turn of events was highly unlikely. Effectively engaging the Citadel forces was a priority- it was a clear danger, and changing your deployment to something less effective just to account for a highly unliekly possible danger is opposite of smart.

A clear danger that you claim is trying to run away.

I mean that the Geth should fight defensivily and I assumed are directed by Sovereign , it's their god afterall.

I don't think he's the micro-managing type. Besides, he's busy with by-passing hte Citadel security protocols.

Given that even todays computers can manage thousands of processes simulantanously, I' doubt it would tax a demigod. but even if it doesn't the geth are supposed to be suprageniuses as well.

[Yezdigerd]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
As I said - general after the battle.

Strange that I was wrong then, in hindsight it was possible to engage the Sovereign and his Geth separately and the Citadel fleet didn't seem to add anything of significance to the battle with Sovereign.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:14 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Where's the eye roll when you need it?

Losing is not a conditional for someone being an idiot. In every zero-sum competitive activity, someone is going to win, and someone is going to lose. There is not a meaningful correlation simply between 'you lose = you idiot' after a point, because even when two capable parties oppose eachother one is still going to lose.

The two best chess masters in the world will still have one winner, and one loser after long enough. The two best boxers will have only one champion. Two contestants on a game show will have a tie breaker to determine a winner.

Good people also lose. Great people lose. It is inherent in any win-lose setting. Losing does not make you a loser. Idiocy comes from why people lose. Not all failures are evidence of failing: upsets do happen, gambles beyond your control can succede, and changes beyond reasonable consideration do sometimes occur. It's a fact of strategy that you have to balance competing demands with limited resources.


Sovereign's defeat does not mark him as an idiot because Sovereign's fall wasn't a result of idiocy. It was a result of an extensive number of incredibly unlikely occurances that Sovereign did make appropriate measures against and did have reasonable reason to believe would work. Shepard had to achieve a long series of unlikely successes in order to make Sovereign vulnerable.

If any one of a large number of events had occured, Sovereign's plan would have succeded: if Vigil had not been able to endure for 50,000 years, if Joker hadn't been able to put the Mako in a landing zone far smaller than anyone thought, if the Geth army had slowed Shepard for another twenty seconds before the conduit, if Shepard had been stalled long enough on the ascent up the tower and by an improved Saren, if the Avatar had been able to kill Shepard... and even before that, if Ashley/Kaiden hadn't triggered the beacon for Shepard to interface, if Benezia hadn't been able to resist indoctrination to give the Mu Relay location, if the Geth had succeded in overruning Feros and destroying the cipher, if the Geth had reached Liara first.


'If Sovereign was confident in his victory then he was probably an idiot. Because he lost.' is idiocy. Sovereign had every reason to be confident in his victory, and he lost for reasons entirely separate from idiocy.

Ok I'll try to explain that. Sovereign wasn't confident. He was already plan B. He was desperate already because the Reapers' plan A had failed because of the Protheans. And the galaxy had been warned of the Reapers which also shouldn't have happened. There was no reason to be confident. Shepard found the beacon, the cipher, survived Virmire and he was obviously on Saren's tail on Ilos.

If you are confident to defeat an enemy that is already tearing apart your plan piece by piece then you are an idiot. Sovereign can have done everything possible to prevent Shepard from crossing his plans, but how can he be sure? Confidence would suggest to me sure you win. And that even though you have an enemy that you just can't stop? Remember Saren's reaction when he learned that Shepard found the beacon on Eden Prime and used it? Is raging a sign of confidence?

And the scale matters because of simple psychology. The more is at stake the more nervous you get. Even if your only job is to press a button as at the right moment. If you lose a match of chess or tennis, then you can win another day. If the future of galaxy depends on it then your knees get soft. Especially at the points where you are in danger of losing the match.

I am not saying that Sovereign is not confident in his skills. I am saying he is not confident to win. Because as you said yourself nobody is safe from losing. I am saying IF he was confident to win he WOULD BE an idiot. I don't think Sovereign was confident, he knew his chances of win and loss. And I don't think that after Shepard made it to Ilos despite the odds Sovereign thought he would be neglectable from there. Because on Ilos is the conduit and the conduit leads to Saren and if Shepard stops Saren then Sovereign has a problem. I don't think he was completely ignorant of that possibility.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok I'll try to explain that. Sovereign wasn't confident. He was already plan B. He was desperate already because the Reapers' plan A had failed because of the Protheans. And the galaxy had been warned of the Reapers which also shouldn't have happened. There was no reason to be confident. Shepard found the beacon, the cipher, survived Virmire and he was obviously on Saren's tail on Ilos.

And, again, you're projecting motivations onto Sovereign. The Reapers don't do desperation: they believe their victory is inevitable even if they do have to fly in themselves.

If you are confident to defeat an enemy that is already tearing apart your plan piece by piece then you are an idiot.

Shepard was not tearing the plan into pieces, because Shepard did not even know what the plan was until Vigil explained what the Conduit actually was.

Shepard was a step behind Saren until the very end: Shepard's successes simply allowed Shepard to trail Saren.

Sovereign can have done everything possible to prevent Shepard from crossing his plans, but how can he be sure? Confidence would suggest to me sure you win. And that even though you have an enemy that you just can't stop? Remember Saren's reaction when he learned that Shepard found the beacon on Eden Prime and used it? Is raging a sign of confidence?

Besides the pointless of exageration of 'everything possible' into unreasonable extremes, Sovereign and Saren did take acceptable steps to throw Shepard off. Without the Beacon, without the Mu Relay coordinates, without the cipher, without Liara, without access to the Conduit, Shepard never would have been able to get in any position to do anything. Saren and Sovereign had forces to cut Shepard's leads off at every opportunity, and an entire fortress when Shepard went on the offensive at Virmire.

And the scale matters because of simple psychology. The more is at stake the more nervous you get. Even if your only job is to press a button as at the right moment. If you lose a match of chess or tennis, then you can win another day. If the future of galaxy depends on it then your knees get soft. Especially at the points where you are in danger of losing the match.

Projecting on everyone, actually, because everyone reacts to stress differently. Some people can walk to their deaths with perfect calm, and some people sob for losing a chess match. Hell, I know a guy who is terrified of heights above four feet, but is perfectly calm jumping out of airplanes. There is no uniform response, even if the galaxy is at stake: some people actually are calmer on big things than little things.

I am not saying that Sovereign is not confident in his skills. I am saying he is not confident to win. Because as you said yourself nobody is safe from losing. I am saying IF he was confident to win he WOULD BE an idiot.

And now you don't understand competitive advantage, but I will accept the reversal of my prior understanding of what you meant.

I don't think Sovereign was confident, he knew his chances of win and loss. And I don't think that after Shepard made it to Ilos despite the odds Sovereign thought he would be neglectable from there. Because on Ilos is the conduit and the conduit leads to Saren and if Shepard stops Saren then Sovereign has a problem. I don't think he was completely ignorant of that possibility.

Sovereign didn't know his chances of win and loss, because Sovereign didn't know about Vigil... who was a total unknown, and the only reason Shepard succeded. Without Vigil, Shepard could never have delayed Sovereign longer, opened up the relays for reinforcements, or opened up the Citadel to expose Sovereign.


Without Vigil, who no one knew about, Shepard's pursuit of Saren was meaningless. Shepard could have shot Saren on the Praesidium, but all that would have followed next was that Shepard would have the best seat in the galaxy for once Sovereign manually overrides the Citadel Relay.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:35 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Without Vigil, who no one knew about, Shepard's pursuit of Saren was meaningless. Shepard could have shot Saren on the Praesidium, but all that would have followed next was that Shepard would have the best seat in the galaxy for once Sovereign manually overrides the Citadel Relay.

I'd assume that a race of ancient machines who lived for millions if not billions of years have seen alot. That's a lot of time to evaluate different scenarios, hell even to experience them. How many times did they wipe out the sentient species of the galaxy? 50? 500? They knew of Ilos, they knew of Protheans surviving, they knew of the conduit. So they had pretty much a clue that there was something going wrong. They maybe didn't exactly know what the Protheans were up to but I doubt they just assumed there would not be something. Which is enough reason to start worrying imo. Hell the Reapers BUILT the citadel. Who would know the chances and options to delay Sovereign with his task if not Sovereign. He is at least half a machine. I giant computer. If he can't calculate chances how to stop him then how could Shepard? Well granted, Shep's not calculating. He is just jumping into the fray and fighting until nobody is left to fight. Sorry but if the Protheans outsmart the Reapers (which they obviously did) then I see two possibilities. The Reapers are stupid. Or the Reapers have alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of which cause them to make mistakes.

Also please, no Reaper proganda to prove how strong the Reapers are. Almost every dictatorship since early last century uses this tactic. 'You lose, you have no chance, give up'. I don't buy it. Why would anyone even trust any word that comes from a Reaper? They have no reason to be honest with us. Even less to tell us their secrets.