529 réponses à ce sujet

[Gabey5]

i would not sacrifice the species and would be hesitant to sacrifice myself

[Get Magna Carter]

Calinstel wrote...

To be fair, Sovereign was not on plan B.
Signal Citadel...........Fail
Use the rachni..........Fail
Use the scientist......Fail. (Saren and Anderson mission)
Use Saren and geth...
And there may be other failures we know nothing about.
Sovereign was working down the alphabet and missing the mark repeatedly.

I would exclude the rachni as that was more likely normal reaper testing or restricting of species rather than an attempt to bring in the fleet (and may have been done by Harbinger).
Of course, there were the events in the "evolution" comic which may count

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Disengaging in space is NOT easy. Also, that means exposing your rear to the Citadel fleet.
Forward fixed guns, rmember?

Not stuck on a two dimensional grid, remember? Just fly over the guns.

I also never said that it's easy, I said that it's possible.

They could have went for a suicide run if Sovereign told them to. He was their god, after all.

Ya, won't work. Those "guns" can move in 3D too, and unless your forward is pointing at the enemy ( and if you want to by-pass them, it won't), you cna't hit htem, they can hit you.
Even if the Geth wanted to move to help Sovereign, that really wasn't feasable - at least in any meaningfull time frame. That pesky Delta-V again.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yezdigerd wrote...
Right, my point was that I didn't even occur to me that 5th fleet could defeat Sovereign alone by brute force, when the "entire citadel fleet" failed to do so. Hence holding the 5th fleet back would supply no military advantage, and letting Council die was a political decision. Once you disposed of them, I expected the fleets to join forces and defeat Sovereign and his Geth in concert.

5th Fleet is neither small nor weak. It's a very powerfull fleet.
I doubt the Council fleet present was stronger - since we know they dispersed their ships to blockade other mass relays.

Also, saying the 5th Fleet cannot take on Sovereign is silly given that before that there was nothing to gauge Sovereigns strength. How would you know - prior to fighting Sovereign - how tough it is and how many ships you'll need?

Citadel is no small station and the battle takes place in the space around it. Space is big. Why do you assume all ships are hugging the Citadels hull?

The citadel is 80 kilometers long(IIRC), surely you agree thats a small area for a space battle? It's like 45 minutes in a car. To FTL capable spaceship it should be a calculating error. The geth's objective is to take the station and protect Sovereign. Which suggests they would stay close to the station[/qutoe]

Except they are not fighting inside the citadel, they are fighting around it. And that includes huderds of thousands of kilometers of space around it.
Space is big. Ship are spaced apart. Geth have to move to engage Citadel ships.

How many contingencies does one plan for anyway? Everything possible and impossible? Sovereign was safe and the turn of events was highly unlikely. Effectively engaging the Citadel forces was a priority- it was a clear danger, and changing your deployment to something less effective just to account for a highly unliekly possible danger is opposite of smart.

A clear danger that you claim is trying to run away.

What clear danger? You are talking about hte 5th fleet coming in and the Citadel opening - both unlikely/upredictable events.

I don't think he's the micro-managing type. Besides, he's busy with by-passing hte Citadel security protocols.

Given that even todays computers can manage thousands of processes simulantanously, I' doubt it would tax a demigod. but even if it doesn't the geth are supposed to be suprageniuses as well.

They were going after the Citadel fleet. there's nothing stupid about it.

[AlexXIV]

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Also devs confirming that Sovereign would have lasted much longer doesn't say how long. If someone as genius as Sovereign or you (sarcasm) comes up with a plan like that, which basically consists of ruthlessly breaking through enemy lines to get into safety, then it isn't all too confident into it's defenses.

Off the mark with that theory of yours.

I swear I love if people do this. If you tell me I am wrong at least tell me why? It's just a theory I can get over it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Without Vigil, who no one knew about, Shepard's pursuit of Saren was meaningless. Shepard could have shot Saren on the Praesidium, but all that would have followed next was that Shepard would have the best seat in the galaxy for once Sovereign manually overrides the Citadel Relay.

I'd assume that a race of ancient machines who lived for millions if not billions of years have seen alot. That's a lot of time to evaluate different scenarios, hell even to experience them. How many times did they wipe out the sentient species of the galaxy? 50? 500? They knew of Ilos, they knew of Protheans surviving, they knew of the conduit. So they had pretty much a clue that there was something going wrong. They maybe didn't exactly know what the Protheans were up to but I doubt they just assumed there would not be something. Which is enough reason to start worrying imo. Hell the Reapers BUILT the citadel. Who would know the chances and options to delay Sovereign with his task if not Sovereign. He is at least half a machine. I giant computer. If he can't calculate chances how to stop him then how could Shepard? Well granted, Shep's not calculating. He is just jumping into the fray and fighting until nobody is left to fight. Sorry but if the Protheans outsmart the Reapers (which they obviously did) then I see two possibilities. The Reapers are stupid. Or the Reapers have alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of which cause them to make mistakes.

Yeah, computers calculating chances of sucess in scenarios wiht unknowns? That's utter BS that you only see in really bad movies.
You can't calculate things like that.

Sovereign had every reason to be confident since he had every advantage - and the only advantage Sheppard had (the Data File) is not something Sovereign was aware of.
Or do you postulate we should be worried about things we don't know exist?

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Also devs confirming that Sovereign would have lasted much longer doesn't say how long. If someone as genius as Sovereign or you (sarcasm) comes up with a plan like that, which basically consists of ruthlessly breaking through enemy lines to get into safety, then it isn't all too confident into it's defenses.

Off the mark with that theory of yours.

I swear I love if people do this. If you tell me I am wrong at least tell me why? It's just a theory I can get over it.

Waht's wrong? Let's start with everything.

Jesus dude...with your theories you're becoming a laughing stock. And I am being 100% serious here. For your sake, you should try to save face.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 décembre 2011 - 06:05 .

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Sorry but if the Protheans outsmart the Reapers (which they obviously did) then I see two possibilities. The Reapers are stupid. Or the Reapers have alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of which cause them to make mistakes.

Are you stupid? Are these really the only 2 possiblities you see? Or are these the only 2 possibilities you want to see?


The protheans being able to outsmart the reaper cycle =/= "alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of"


Seriously, can you explain to me how you jump from "the protheans managed to outsmart the reaper cycle" to "the reapers havae alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of"? Because that's pretty much the biggest leap of faith I've ever seen.

Well being outsmarted by a race that they wanted to harvest like vegetables does look like a critical weakness to me. Even more so if it can lead to their doom. And it will, no?

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Also devs confirming that Sovereign would have lasted much longer doesn't say how long. If someone as genius as Sovereign or you (sarcasm) comes up with a plan like that, which basically consists of ruthlessly breaking through enemy lines to get into safety, then it isn't all too confident into it's defenses.

Off the mark with that theory of yours.

I swear I love if people do this. If you tell me I am wrong at least tell me why? It's just a theory I can get over it.

Waht's wrong? Let's start with everything.

Jesus dude...with your theories you're becoming a laughing stock. And I am being 100% serious here. For your sake, you should try to save face.

I can't stay serious with you. That's not possible really.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well being outsmarted by a race that they wanted to harvest like vegetables does look like a critical weakness to me. Even more so if it can lead to their doom. And it will, no?

Every move/book/game vilain ever = stupid? Because you know..they were all defeated eventually.<_<

And since you're being defeated in these debates..what does that make you?

[Yezdigerd]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
Right, my point was that I didn't even occur to me that 5th fleet could defeat Sovereign alone by brute force, when the "entire citadel fleet" failed to do so. Hence holding the 5th fleet back would supply no military advantage, and letting Council die was a political decision. Once you disposed of them, I expected the fleets to join forces and defeat Sovereign and his Geth in concert.[/quote]

[quote]5th Fleet is neither small nor weak. It's a very powerfull fleet.
I doubt the Council fleet present was stronger - since we know they dispersed their ships to blockade other mass relays.[/quote]

Yet the DA alone, is supposed to have the firepower equal to the rest of the Asari fleet, which have 3 times the capital ships of the alliance. I still don't get what you base their power level on, must be something out of game.
Since the Asari councilor says that "if Saren is foolish enough to attack the Citadel, as you believe- we will be ready for him". It suggest heightened readiness rather then depletion. Vessels assigned to patrol generally aren't primarly intended for combat.

[quote]Also, saying the 5th Fleet cannot take on Sovereign is silly given that before that there was nothing to gauge Sovereigns strength. How would you know - prior to fighting Sovereign - how tough it is and how many ships you'll need? [/quote]

I just saw him plow through the Citadel fleet without any noticeable damage? A fleet the game gives me every reason to believe is more formidable then the 5th fleet.


[quote]

[quote]Citadel is no small station and the battle takes place in the space around it. Space is big. Why do you assume all ships are hugging the Citadels hull?[/quote]

The citadel is 80 kilometers long(IIRC), surely you agree thats a small area for a space battle? It's like 45 minutes in a car. To FTL capable spaceship it should be a calculating error. The geth's objective is to take the station and protect Sovereign. Which suggests they would stay close to the station[/qutoe]

[quote]Except they are not fighting inside the citadel, they are fighting around it. And that includes huderds of thousands of kilometers of space around it.
Space is big. Ship are spaced apart. Geth have to move to engage Citadel ships.[/quote]

It seems its more the Citadel ships that have to move engage the geth if they want to defend the Citadel, I can't see why the geth ships would spread when they have every reason to stay in range of the station and wins the war if they keep Sovereign clear.
Well except for "friction in space" which for some reason put every ship(except the system alliance ones) outside the weapons range of the citadel arms.



[quote]
[quote]How many contingencies does one plan for anyway? Everything possible and impossible? Sovereign was safe and the turn of events was highly unlikely. Effectively engaging the Citadel forces was a priority- it was a clear danger, and changing your deployment to something less effective just to account for a highly unliekly possible danger is opposite of smart.[/quote]

A clear danger that you claim is trying to run away.[/quote]

[quote]What clear danger? You are talking about hte 5th fleet coming in and the Citadel opening - both unlikely/upredictable events.[/quote]

You said the Geth chose to engage the DA and their support even though it tried to hightail out.



[quote]
I don't think he's the micro-managing type. Besides, he's busy with by-passing hte Citadel security protocols.[/quote]

Given that even todays computers can manage thousands of processes simulantanously, I' doubt it would tax a demigod. but even if it doesn't the geth are supposed to be suprageniuses as well.
[/quote]

[quote]They were going after the Citadel fleet. there's nothing stupid about it.[/quote]


[/quote]

Since it rendered them unable to come to Sovereigns aid, I guess this somehow could be unavoidable,since the game doesn't explicitly say otherwise,  I just find it quite unbelievable given the size of the citadel, the forces and known factors involved.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 27 décembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Without Vigil, who no one knew about, Shepard's pursuit of Saren was meaningless. Shepard could have shot Saren on the Praesidium, but all that would have followed next was that Shepard would have the best seat in the galaxy for once Sovereign manually overrides the Citadel Relay.

I'd assume that a race of ancient machines who lived for millions if not billions of years have seen alot. That's a lot of time to evaluate different scenarios, hell even to experience them. How many times did they wipe out the sentient species of the galaxy? 50? 500? They knew of Ilos, they knew of Protheans surviving, they knew of the conduit. So they had pretty much a clue that there was something going wrong. They maybe didn't exactly know what the Protheans were up to but I doubt they just assumed there would not be something. Which is enough reason to start worrying imo. Hell the Reapers BUILT the citadel. Who would know the chances and options to delay Sovereign with his task if not Sovereign. He is at least half a machine. I giant computer. If he can't calculate chances how to stop him then how could Shepard? Well granted, Shep's not calculating. He is just jumping into the fray and fighting until nobody is left to fight. Sorry but if the Protheans outsmart the Reapers (which they obviously did) then I see two possibilities. The Reapers are stupid. Or the Reapers have alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of which cause them to make mistakes.

Yeah, computers calculating chances of sucess in scenarios wiht unknowns? That's utter BS that you only see in really bad movies.
You can't calculate things like that.

Sovereign had every reason to be confident since he had every advantage - and the only advantage Sheppard had (the Data File) is not something Sovereign was aware of.
Or do you postulate we should be worried about things we don't know exist?

Clearly if a wormhole to the Mass Effect 40k universe opens and Tyranids descend upon the Galaxy, the Reapers should have seen that coming as well. Because they're like, computers and ****.

(Where as good eye roll when you need one?)

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Sorry but if the Protheans outsmart the Reapers (which they obviously did) then I see two possibilities. The Reapers are stupid. Or the Reapers have alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of which cause them to make mistakes.

Are you stupid? Are these really the only 2 possiblities you see? Or are these the only 2 possibilities you want to see?


The protheans being able to outsmart the reaper cycle =/= "alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of"


Seriously, can you explain to me how you jump from "the protheans managed to outsmart the reaper cycle" to "the reapers havae alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of"? Because that's pretty much the biggest leap of faith I've ever seen.

Well being outsmarted by a race that they wanted to harvest like vegetables does look like a critical weakness to me. Even more so if it can lead to their doom. And it will, no?

It's not a critical weakness on the reaper's side, more like super luck on the prothean's side.


The fact that Ilos was not discovered and thus was able to create the conduit and delay the reaper cycle is 100% pure lucky for us and nothing else.

If the reapers found out about Ilos, than the Conduit wouldn't exist, the keepers wouldn't have been altered and the cycle would have continued normally, which means "we" wouldn't even exist right now.


So, again, Sovereign losing is nothing more than simple BAD LUCK on Sovereign's side. He's not an idiot. He's not dumb and he's not weak.

You know what's cool. I just found out how the Reapers are defeated. With super luck. Obviously that's their critical weakness, they are really unlucky. Probably bad karma, you know, from all the bad things they do.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well being outsmarted by a race that they wanted to harvest like vegetables does look like a critical weakness to me. Even more so if it can lead to their doom. And it will, no?

Every move/book/game vilain ever = stupid? Because you know..they were all defeated eventually.<_<

And since you're being defeated in these debates..what does that make you?

You can't stop declaring yourself winner of something that never happened right?

It's obvious you need that. Really you're so obvious I can read you like a book. Not a good book mind you.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Without Vigil, who no one knew about, Shepard's pursuit of Saren was meaningless. Shepard could have shot Saren on the Praesidium, but all that would have followed next was that Shepard would have the best seat in the galaxy for once Sovereign manually overrides the Citadel Relay.

I'd assume that a race of ancient machines who lived for millions if not billions of years have seen alot. That's a lot of time to evaluate different scenarios, hell even to experience them. How many times did they wipe out the sentient species of the galaxy? 50? 500? They knew of Ilos, they knew of Protheans surviving, they knew of the conduit. So they had pretty much a clue that there was something going wrong. They maybe didn't exactly know what the Protheans were up to but I doubt they just assumed there would not be something. Which is enough reason to start worrying imo. Hell the Reapers BUILT the citadel. Who would know the chances and options to delay Sovereign with his task if not Sovereign. He is at least half a machine. I giant computer. If he can't calculate chances how to stop him then how could Shepard? Well granted, Shep's not calculating. He is just jumping into the fray and fighting until nobody is left to fight. Sorry but if the Protheans outsmart the Reapers (which they obviously did) then I see two possibilities. The Reapers are stupid. Or the Reapers have alot of critical weaknesses we don't know of which cause them to make mistakes.

Yeah, computers calculating chances of sucess in scenarios wiht unknowns? That's utter BS that you only see in really bad movies.
You can't calculate things like that.

Sovereign had every reason to be confident since he had every advantage - and the only advantage Sheppard had (the Data File) is not something Sovereign was aware of.
Or do you postulate we should be worried about things we don't know exist?

Clearly if a wormhole to the Mass Effect 40k universe opens and Tyranids descend upon the Galaxy, the Reapers should have seen that coming as well. Because they're like, computers and ****.

(Where as good eye roll when you need one?)

Ah come on are you telling me if some company creates computers and their own software they don't know how it works? Hell the Protheans figured out how to block out Sovereign so Shepard can keep the control of the citadel and the Reapers never thought something like that can happen? As I said before, it is not even necessary that the Reapers know exactly what the Protheans are up to. They only need to know their own soft- and hardware. If you can't understand that then I am sorry again. If you want to get a billion years old you need to be smarter than this.

[Medhia Nox]

It's fascinating how "real" some of you treat this. I suppose talking about works of fiction as if they were real could be fun - but I doubt anyone who tried to write a story that way would ever achieve anything resembling a successful work.

Shepard is put into the path of Sovereign by fate. Fate, in this case, are the developers of the game. Third person Creators who have total control over all events - the only possible analogue would be a "God" in our own universe - as of yet, unproven.

Shepard's uselessness if X event had not happened - is pointless to discuss. All events are preordained in the ME universe (as they are in all works of art).

Roleplaying Shepard as unsure of his "fate" would be fine - "in his shoes" he would be unaware of any such Creators - but discussing on these boards the concept of an unscripted ME universe is - well, futile (along with being ludicrous).

Shepard is destined to defeat the Reapers - the only thing that might be different is how that victory is achieved.

=========

To answer the OP - no, to me, the ends never justify the means. It is the means which define the end result.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah come on are you telling me if some company creates computers and their own software they don't know how it works?

I can actually field this one.

No.

Zero-day attacks are effective because the creators of the computers and the software are unaware of the exploits. The very field of hacking relies on the truth that, in fact, no one knows everything about how their own system works and how to enforce it. That's a large part of how the stuxworm virus managed to wreck Iranian centrifuges: the creators knew more about the systems involved than the creators.

Likewise, most electronics companies accept the nature of the infinite potential for improvement dynamic. You can always refine an electronics product, but there's very little reason to do so past a point. Most groups never do, or just make improvements on the go after production. It's cheaper to fix what you didn't realize was broke after the fact than remove all errors. That's why new electronics sytems are notoriously buggy.

In fact, the entire multi-billion economic field of electronic espionage is based upon the fact that creators are not all-knowing of their creations, nor all-capable of preventing subversion.

Hell the Protheans figured out how to block out Sovereign so Shepard can keep the control of the citadel and the Reapers never thought something like that can happen?

There's no reason to believe a data file to do just that will last 50,000 years (and yet fall apart shortly thereafter) and find its way to Shepard in his pursuit. Any more than there's any reason to believe an asteroid will randomly collide with the conduit in the last 50,000 years and destroy it.

I realize many people are bad with the concept of probabilities, but weighing likelihoods is important. Not all possibilities are relevantly probable. It's possible for all life as we know it to end tomorrow. It isn't something to start throwing money at, however.


And, technically, the Protheans only showed that they could sabotage
the keepers of the Citadel, and the systems that controlled them. Nothing about taking control of the station itself from Sovereign as the data file did was implied by the Prothean sabotage.

As I said before, it is not even necessary that the Reapers know exactly what the Protheans are up to. They only need to know their own soft- and hardware. If you can't understand that then I am sorry again. If you want to get a billion years old you need to be smarter than this.

Son, I'm an electrical engineer. Now, I might not have been the top of my class, but I think I might understand a little something about how software and hardware works together, as well as such concerns as 'reliability of systems over time.' And if an ancient facility is breaking down with time and lack of power and fifty thousand years without so much as a janitor, maybe people and sentient-machines could be excused for seeing the probability of any deus ex machina just lying around as 'minute.'

Just maybe. Then again, maybe that degree on the table is all for show. Maybe you've years more on the subject of engineering and reliability of systems and power systems, in which case I'll gladly defer to your argument of expertise.

Do you?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 10:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Disengaging in space is NOT easy. Also, that means exposing your rear to the Citadel fleet.
Forward fixed guns, rmember?

Not stuck on a two dimensional grid, remember? Just fly over the guns.

I also never said that it's easy, I said that it's possible.

They could have went for a suicide run if Sovereign told them to. He was their god, after all.

Ya, won't work. Those "guns" can move in 3D too, and unless your forward is pointing at the enemy ( and if you want to by-pass them, it won't), you cna't hit htem, they can hit you.
Even if the Geth wanted to move to help Sovereign, that really wasn't feasable - at least in any meaningfull time frame. That pesky Delta-V again.

Wait. So it takes more time for the geth to attack the Destiny Ascension and fly into the Citadel than it takes the Arcturus fleet to arrive through the mass relay, fly right into the Citadel while ignoring the geth and destroy Sovereign? What?



That's about as close as the geth fleet was to the Citadel. Are you honestly trying to make me believe that not a single one of those ships could have disengaged from the battle to assist Sovereign?

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah come on are you telling me if some company creates computers and their own software they don't know how it works?

I can actually field this one.

No.

Zero-day attacks are effective because the creators of the computers and the software are unaware of the exploits. The very field of hacking relies on the truth that, in fact, no one knows everything about how their own system works and how to enforce it.

Likewise, most electronics companies accept the nature of the infinite potential for improvement dynamic. You can always refine an electronics product, but there's very little reason to do so past a point. Most groups never do, or just make improvements on the go after production. It's cheaper to fix what you didn't realize was broke after the fact than remove all errors. That's why new electronics sytems are notoriously buggy.

Hell the Protheans figured out how to block out Sovereign so Shepard can keep the control of the citadel and the Reapers never thought something like that can happen?

There's no reason to believe a data file to do just that will last 50,000 years (and yet fall apart shortly thereafter) and find its way to Shepard in his pursuit. Any more than there's any reason to believe an asteroid will randomly collide with the conduit in the last 50,000 years and destroy it.

I realize many people are bad with the concept of probabilities, but weighing likelihoods is important.

As I said before, it is not even necessary that the Reapers know exactly what the Protheans are up to. They only need to know their own soft- and hardware. If you can't understand that then I am sorry again. If you want to get a billion years old you need to be smarter than this.

Son, I'm an electrical engineer. Now, I might not have been the top of my class, but I think I might understand a little something about how software and hardware works together, as well as such concerns as 'reliability of systems over time.'

Just maybe. Then again, maybe that degree on the table is all for show. Maybe you've years more on the subject of engineering, in which case I'll gladly defer to your argument of expertise.

Do you?

So you'd say if you used the same tech and software for million years you still couldn't prevent people from hacking it? Especially if you control the tech progress of these people like the Reapers do? No I am not a tech expert (and neither your son btw.) but that shouldn't keep you from explaining me why.

Also I know the last large asteroid of the size you mention hit earth many millions of years ago, so I wouldn't think this probability is high. Storing data for 50.000 years though is more likely considering the available tech in ME. Especially if it was the Protheans plan to give this data to the next species facing the Reapers. That's how smart Protheans are. But probably you are in the same boat with certain other people and just say they got lucky. So ... whatever. Probalby we should be singing and dancing all day about how lucky we were which had nothing to do with someone being smarter than someone else.

So to shorten this you could just explain me why billions or even only millions of years were not enough time for the Reapers to prevent 'lesser' races to hack their citadel and delay them long enough to make their 'Sovereign bullrushes Citadel' plan fail. And no, I don't accept 'pure luck' as an answer. You will have to do better.

[AlexXIV]

jreezy wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's fascinating how "real" some of you treat this. I suppose talking about works of fiction as if they were real could be fun - but I doubt anyone who tried to write a story that way would ever achieve anything resembling a successful work.

Shepard is put into the path of Sovereign by fate. Fate, in this case, are the developers of the game. Third person Creators who have total control over all events - the only possible analogue would be a "God" in our own universe - as of yet, unproven.

Shepard's uselessness if X event had not happened - is pointless to discuss. All events are preordained in the ME universe (as they are in all works of art).

Roleplaying Shepard as unsure of his "fate" would be fine - "in his shoes" he would be unaware of any such Creators - but discussing on these boards the concept of an unscripted ME universe is - well, futile (along with being ludicrous).

Shepard is destined to defeat the Reapers - the only thing that might be different is how that victory is achieved.

=========

To answer the OP - no, to me, the ends never justify the means. It is the means which define the end result.

Ends this and a whole bunch of other threads.

Wanna bet?

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

It's not a critical weakness on the reaper's side, more like super luck on the prothean's side.


The fact that Ilos was not discovered and thus was able to create the conduit and delay the reaper cycle is 100% pure lucky for us and nothing else.

If the reapers found out about Ilos, than the Conduit wouldn't exist, the keepers wouldn't have been altered and the cycle would have continued normally, which means "we" wouldn't even exist right now.


So, again, Sovereign losing is nothing more than simple BAD LUCK on Sovereign's side. He's not an idiot. He's not dumb and he's not weak.

You know what's cool. I just found out how the Reapers are defeated. With super luck. Obviously that's their critical weakness, they are really unlucky. Probably bad karma, you know, from all the bad things they do.

You can be sarcastic all you want, but you know it's true.

Shepard has been incredibly lucky more than a few times. If luck wasn't on Shepard's side, Sovereign and Saren would have won.

Same with the reapers v.s the protheans. If the protheans didn't have the luck of Ilos never being discovered due to the fact that Ilos was pretty isolated, than the whole Conduit would never have been build.

I dispute that it was just luck. You could reduce everything to luck if you wanted. But actually they were people with a plan and it worked. A bit of luck is always a good thing. But a good plan isn't dependend on luck in any rate.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 10:09 .