529 réponses à ce sujet

[Swampthing500]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Soverign needed Saren to start the process of bringing in the Reapers.. Without Saren, Soverign could do nothing. Shephard cannot hurt Soverign, but he sure as hell can stop his plans.

Incorrect. As Vigil tells you, the data file is a temporary delay

And the Citadel fleet was in fact attacking Soverign. It was the Destiny Ascension which had to retreat.

No, it wasn't. The force that moves inside the arms after they open is the Alliance fleet. The Citadel fleet is doing what it does regardless, fighting the Geth, as well as protecting the Destiny Ascension which at that point can't retreat.

From the ME Wiki:

"After killing the operators of Citadel Control, Saren made his way toward the Citadel's master control unit, intending to transfer control of the Citadel to Sovereign to activate the latent mass relay, paving the way for the rest of the Reapers to enter through from dark space. Saren was interrupted, however, when Shepard and the Ilos ground team rushed in. "

Additionally, sending the fleet to save the Destiny Ascension was not a zero-sum choice. It was a momentary diversion, and then the fleet would get back to hammering Sovereign.

[MarchWaltz]

On my "main" character I don't choose para or rene and stick with it, each choice I make I make it as if I would make it; it just happens to be I was majority paragon at for ME1 or ME2....I have no idea what I will be for ME3.

Losses are acceptable, but failure is not.

[Swampthing500]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Alpha relay however is a certainty. There´s no gamble there, the Reapers are arriving for sure,

...the Reapers are arriving for sure at the Battle of the Citadel too (if you don't stop Sovereign). The "gamble" at the Alpha Relay is whether or not you can defeat the Reapers if they are able to use the relay.

You don't need to stop Soverign, just stop Saren.

[Dean_the_Young]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Soverign needed Saren to start the process of bringing in the Reapers.. Without Saren, Soverign could do nothing. Shephard cannot hurt Soverign, but he sure as hell can stop his plans.

Incorrect. As Vigil tells you, the data file is a temporary delay

And the Citadel fleet was in fact attacking Soverign. It was the Destiny Ascension which had to retreat.

No, it wasn't. The force that moves inside the arms after they open is the Alliance fleet. The Citadel fleet is doing what it does regardless, fighting the Geth, as well as protecting the Destiny Ascension which at that point can't retreat.

From the ME Wiki:

"After killing the operators of Citadel Control, Saren made his way toward the Citadel's master control unit, intending to transfer control of the Citadel to Sovereign to activate the latent mass relay, paving the way for the rest of the Reapers to enter through from dark space. Saren was interrupted, however, when Shepard and the Ilos ground team rushed in. "

You realize that doesn't counter what I said, don't you?

No, of course not.


The reason Shepard was able to interrupt Saren was by applying Vigil's data file after Saren's death and regaining control of the Mass Relays, thus opening up the way for reinforcements to take out Sovereign. But the Vigil data file, as Vigil tells us in the game, was a temporary measure: Sovereign would overcome it as well, and go on to manually open the Citadel Relay.

Additionally, sending the fleet to save the Destiny Ascension was not a zero-sum choice. It was a momentary diversion, and then the fleet would get back to hammering Sovereign.

No, it wasn't a zero-sum choice. It was a negative-sum choice. You took away forces that would otherwise be attacking Sovereign, and gained none in return.

[Dean_the_Young]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Alpha relay however is a certainty. There´s no gamble there, the Reapers are arriving for sure,

...the Reapers are arriving for sure at the Battle of the Citadel too (if you don't stop Sovereign). The "gamble" at the Alpha Relay is whether or not you can defeat the Reapers if they are able to use the relay.

You don't need to stop Soverign, just stop Saren.

Vigil disagrees.

[Dean_the_Young]

SykoWolf wrote...

Seriously guys (Dean_the_young and swampthing) it is so much fun listening to you guys. everything is possible, but most aren"t probable leading us to stick to assumptions of the most likely thing to occur. However all that is thrown out the door when u have an ancient race of machines leading a genocidal rampage through our back door.

Cost-benefit doesn't get thrown out the door even then.

[Swampthing500]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Alpha relay however is a certainty. There´s no gamble there, the Reapers are arriving for sure,

...the Reapers are arriving for sure at the Battle of the Citadel too (if you don't stop Sovereign). The "gamble" at the Alpha Relay is whether or not you can defeat the Reapers if they are able to use the relay.

You don't need to stop Soverign, just stop Saren.

Vigil disagrees.

From the ME wiki:

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Keepers

"The Protheans succeeded in altering this reaction to the signal, though too late to save the Protheans themselves from extinction at the hands of the Reapers. The keepers have changed and evolved so they only respond to the Citadel itself; they are now no longer under Reaper control and pose no threat to anyone."
 
and

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Saren

"After killing the operators of Citadel Control, Saren made his way toward the Citadel's master control unit, intending to transfer control of the Citadel to Sovereign to activate the latent mass relay, paving the way for the rest of the Reapers to enter through from dark space. Saren was interrupted, however, when Shepard and the Ilos ground team rushed in"

Sovereign needed Saren to transfer to him, otherwise the Reapers could not appear. Without Saren, Sovereign could do nothing because the Keepers no longer responded.

[SykoWolf]

Wait are the reapers using the citadel to get into the galaxy or do they use a different means, and if they do use the citadel there first target would be those inhabiting it. And let's say they use a different means, why do they choose to attack earth first? Are they targeting shepard or the alliance?

[Swampthing500]

SykoWolf wrote...

Wait are the reapers using the citadel to get into the galaxy or do they use a different means, and if they do use the citadel there first target would be those inhabiting it. And let's say they use a different means, why do they choose to attack earth first? Are they targeting shepard or the alliance?

Citadel was the primary means of entering the galaxy. They could also use the Citadel to prevent other races from using the Mass Relay system.

Usually a Reaper would activate a signal, and the Keepers would respond and summon the Reaper fleet. The Keepers evolved and now Sovereign could not access the Citadel at all. He needed an agent to do it. Saren was that agent. If you kill Saren, Soverign cannot do anything and there is no massive decapitation attack.

This forces the Reapers to enter the Galaxy normally and scatter their forces, which makes them vulnerable.

Because Shepard killed Sovereign and stopped the Collectors, the Reapers think "Okay, these Humans are the most troublesome, we need to take them out first!"

Hence the attack on Earth.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 24 décembre 2011 - 05:56 .

[SykoWolf]

Technically sovereign killed himself by uploading himself into saren thus making him slightly more flesh and blood.an easier target for shepard. I believe the reapers attack earth by coincidence. Because remember the reapers think themselves gods, they wouldn't be particularly worried about humans any more then the turians or asari. They would just be doing what they planned to do, kill all living beings.

[BatmanPWNS]

If some must die to save a million then it must be done. (Well, my opinion anyway)

[Arkitekt]

The whole ME3 reaper plan is bad. They should have sticked to the original idea of overwhelming and taking out the citadel first. Then they would go after Earth.

[Aumata]

jreezy wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

The whole ME3 reaper plan is bad. They should have sticked to the original idea of overwhelming and taking out the citadel first. Then they would go after Earth.

That plan failed twice. I'm not too sure they were thinking "third time's a charm".

Up till they realize we can't fight them using conventional means then they can just aim for the Citadel and go for a sweep less they close the damn arms and the Citadel can tank an extended reapers dreadnought blast.  But this would mean that the Citadel can't be used as a hub world, or it would have to be moved somewhere else.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Now you are just repeating yourself and you are quoting the wiki which is fan-made.

Sovereign was attached to the control tower, it was only a matter of time until it gained complete control, even after you uploaded the file from Vigil.

Hypocrite scum!

If that was true, then why did Sovereign need the Saren avatar?  Why bother trying to kill Shepard if the file used was only temporary and it would have overwritten it?  If Saren's job was complete, then Sovereign needlessly exposed itself by taking control of Saren's body.  I can't believe that it would assess anything that Shepard could do from within in the tower to be any great threat to it's plans if it was already connected to the citadel.  The only conclsion I can come to is that it still needed an agent within the tower to finish it's plans -- that would be the only reason it would risk itself in such a manner.

And to answer the OP, no.  The ends do not ALWAYS justify the means.  To get a more thorough answer would require context, which of course always spirals downward into an argument over ethics and morals.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Why? Because of writing.
In Vigils own words, the data file will only buy you some time.

So why did it need Saren? I guess to open and close the relay trough which Sovy came.
Why did it need the avatar? I have no clue.

[Arkitekt]

Perhaps Sovvy was not aware of the timing limitation of the device.

[Volus Warlord]

Yes. /thread

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nothing is true, everything is permitted. Remember these words.

[HiroVoid]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Now you are just repeating yourself and you are quoting the wiki which is fan-made.

Sovereign was attached to the control tower, it was only a matter of time until it gained complete control, even after you uploaded the file from Vigil.

Hypocrite scum!

If that was true, then why did Sovereign need the Saren avatar?  Why bother trying to kill Shepard if the file used was only temporary and it would have overwritten it?  If Saren's job was complete, then Sovereign needlessly exposed itself by taking control of Saren's body.  I can't believe that it would assess anything that Shepard could do from within in the tower to be any great threat to it's plans if it was already connected to the citadel.  The only conclsion I can come to is that it still needed an agent within the tower to finish it's plans -- that would be the only reason it would risk itself in such a manner.

And to answer the OP, no.  The ends do not ALWAYS justify the means.  To get a more thorough answer would require context, which of course always spirals downward into an argument over ethics and morals.

Meta-gaming.  Here's what's implied in the scene when you make the choice.  Pay attention to what your companions say.  To what the devs are trying to communicate in this scene. 

[Labrev]

 I think it's a sound idea as long as the means don't cross the line, and the ends are truly preferrable.