529 réponses à ce sujet

[RowanCF]

PM me your response, I have to go to bed.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, and I'm telling you that by the time you reach Saren his job may already be done.

Then why possess Saren?

He possesses Saren after you make the decision.  Without metagaming, Shepard has no knowledge of this.  Therefore you cannot use it to justify the real-time decision.

The claim was that Sovereign may already have had control of the Citadel. I said that if Sovereign already had control transfered to him, why bother possessing Saren's body?

We were not discussing the decision to save the council in that context.

Before Saren and Shepard had their final showdown, control was being transferred to Sovereign (took "a few minutes" to transfer).  According to your squadmate, Sovereign had control of the station at one time (to some capacity).  Saren had already accessed the computer before Shepard arrived.

[Bleachrude]

The outcome of the decision is my biggest problem with the ME1 choice at the end.

No matter how you slice it, why would the humans come to dominate the council even if the entire citadel fleet gets wiped out especially given the population of the citadel itself and the various races population in the wider galaxy. At most, they lost one DN and that's it

Did they have no contingency plan for it a councillor died? Especially the hierarchy with its citizenship tier....more importantly, I never understood WHY the humans insist on being part of the council given the fact that the council races are obligated to provide protection from pirates et al. Especially given the trillions of sentients that the council has to provide protection for...Hell, wasn't it mentioned in one of the books/comics that if pirates were attacking both an elcor and a salarian colony in citadel controlled space, the council races were obligated to protect the elcor colony even if the salarian colony was bigger?

The council itself doesn't have that much power (indeed, the volus are the ones who have the galaxy by the balls if anything )

Dumb writing is dumb.

[Swampthing500]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, and I'm telling you that by the time you reach Saren his job may already be done.

Then why possess Saren?

He possesses Saren after you make the decision.  Without metagaming, Shepard has no knowledge of this.  Therefore you cannot use it to justify the real-time decision.

The claim was that Sovereign may already have had control of the Citadel. I said that if Sovereign already had control transfered to him, why bother possessing Saren's body?

We were not discussing the decision to save the council in that context.

Well in that case I'm not disagreeing with you.  Sovereign would not have bothered if indeed he already had control transferred to him.  However, isn't it a moot point unless you are using it to shed light on the decision to save the council?

The other poster had been arguing against the idea that killing Saren was all that was needed to stop Sovereigns plan.

This is distinct from killing Sovereign itself.

In the context of the decision to save the Council, I thought that momentarily diverting the fleet to save the Council was necessary since:

It would show that Humans could but other priorities above their own needs, showing they could be responsible members of the Galactic community.

The Council would be indebted to Humanity.

The undisputed leaders of Galactic government would still be in power, maintaining unity and cohesion in terms of command and allowing the Citdael military to remain coordinated and intact.

Additionally, because killing Saren was the vital goal, we could afford to momentarily divert attention from Sovereign.

[Swampthing500]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, and I'm telling you that by the time you reach Saren his job may already be done.

Then why possess Saren?

He possesses Saren after you make the decision.  Without metagaming, Shepard has no knowledge of this.  Therefore you cannot use it to justify the real-time decision.

The claim was that Sovereign may already have had control of the Citadel. I said that if Sovereign already had control transfered to him, why bother possessing Saren's body?

We were not discussing the decision to save the council in that context.

Before Saren and Shepard had their final showdown, control was being transferred to Sovereign (took "a few minutes" to transfer).  According to your squadmate, Sovereign had control of the station at one time (to some capacity).  Saren had already accessed the computer before Shepard arrived.

The virus introduced by Vigil momentarily prevented Saren from taking control (which can be seen with the arms of Citadel station not fully closing). So when Shephard approached Saren was still in the process of trying to regain control and transfer it to Sovereign.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:29 .

[Aimi]

Swampthing500 wrote...

The virus introduced by Vigil momentarily prevented Saren from taking control (which can be seen with the arms of Citadel station not fully closing). So when Shephard approached Saren was still in the process of trying to regain control and transfer it to Sovereign,

Technically, you don't actually know that, and squad dialogue implies that it's only a matter of time before Sovereign gets control anyway. Of course, how, say, Ashley would come up with this revelation out of nowhere is unclear, but whatever, it's the information the game gives you.

[Swampthing500]

daqs wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

The virus introduced by Vigil momentarily prevented Saren from taking control (which can be seen with the arms of Citadel station not fully closing). So when Shephard approached Saren was still in the process of trying to regain control and transfer it to Sovereign,

Technically, you don't actually know that, and squad dialogue implies that it's only a matter of time before Sovereign gets control anyway. Of course, how, say, Ashley would come up with this revelation out of nowhere is unclear, but whatever, it's the information the game gives you.

Vigil actually says to you "This virus will temporarily give you control of the Citadel so you will have time to stop Saren".

Vigil also says that the Keepers no longer respond to signals from Sovereign, meaning the Reapers cannot get control of the station without Saren. That was why it was so critical to find the Conduit.

[Bleachrude]

Another thing I have trouble understanding...

How does "save your forces" actually result in GREATER forces to attack sovereign?

Let's say there is the Citadel fleet (DA plus protection of cruisers/frigates) fighting geth. The 5th fleet comes in and decides to wait...This means that the DA and more citadel crusiers/frigates get destroyed but the geth are taken care of.

5th fleet attack Sovereign now but it will be JUST the 5th fleet.

Conversely, the 5th fleet attacks to provide manoeuvering room for the DA. The 5th fleet loses ships but not as many citadel cruisers/frigates and the DA are saved. Once the geth are destroyed, everyone attacks Sovereign...

5th fleet isn't as big but it would now have the DA and the other citadel fleet units that were not destroyed...Why would the former be a significantly larger force?

Bioware really doesn't understand military tactics/cutscenes very well...not sure which is worse..this or ostagar?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, and I'm telling you that by the time you reach Saren his job may already be done.

Then why possess Saren?

Maybe he wanted Sheppard dead?
Maybe he wanted to close the citadel again?
Maybe with Saren Avatar he could hack it faster?

[Swampthing500]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, and I'm telling you that by the time you reach Saren his job may already be done.

Then why possess Saren?

Maybe he wanted Sheppard dead?
Maybe he wanted to close the citadel again?
Maybe with Saren Avatar he could hack it faster?

1: No, his only goal is to bring the rest of the Reapers into the galaxy. Once that is done, Shepard will die easily enough.  Since he was trying to kill Shepard, he was obviously trying to remove a barrier to transfer manual control.

2: The fleet was already inside with him. Closing it would change nothing, and the fleet wasn't exactly hurting him much.

3: If he is still hacking it then he has not got manual control, which proves my point.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 25 décembre 2011 - 10:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Swampthing500 wrote...



What from 9.50 onwards and Vigil tells you why Saren is needed.

If Sovereign had already taken control of the station, he does not need to possess Saren's body to kill you. All he needs to do is to wait and bypass the program given by Vigil and bring the Reapers in.

Since he takes control of Saren, it means that control as not been manually transfered. He needs to kill Shepard and use the body to transfer control.

That video clearly states that Saren will transfer control to Sovereign, who will override the current protocols.
Vigil also said that that his file will corrupt the security protocols and give Shep TEMPORARY control of the station.

Saren already transfered control (he was alkreadydone with the console) and Sovy was overriding. When Shep put in vigils file, he TEMPORARILY halted Sovereign.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, and I'm telling you that by the time you reach Saren his job may already be done.

Then why possess Saren?

Maybe he wanted Sheppard dead?
Maybe he wanted to close the citadel again?
Maybe with Saren Avatar he could hack it faster?

1: No, his only goal is to bring the rest of the Reapers into the galaxy. Once that is done, Shepard will die easily enough.  Since he was trying to kill Shepard, he was obviously trying to remove a barrier to transfer manual control.

2: The fleet was already inside with him. Closing it would change nothing, and the fleet wasn't exactly hurting him much.

3: If he is still hacking it then he has not got manual control, which proves my point.

1. Can you prove he doesn't want Shep dead? Reapers might be aliens, but I see nothing that prevents them from being vindictive or obsessive

2. Was the whole fleet in? I don't think so. Certanly the DN's weren't. They are long-range artillery, they wouldn't come in close - and they'd be the biggest threat to Sovy.

3. Overriding, not hacking.

And if Sovereign didn't have control, then why was he standing there docked? Moving around so he can bring more gunsto bear would have been better if allhewas doing was waiting for Saren.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bleachrude wrote...

Another thing I have trouble understanding...

How does "save your forces" actually result in GREATER forces to attack sovereign?

Let's say there is the Citadel fleet (DA plus protection of cruisers/frigates) fighting geth. The 5th fleet comes in and decides to wait...This means that the DA and more citadel crusiers/frigates get destroyed but the geth are taken care of.

5th fleet attack Sovereign now but it will be JUST the 5th fleet.

Conversely, the 5th fleet attacks to provide manoeuvering room for the DA. The 5th fleet loses ships but not as many citadel cruisers/frigates and the DA are saved. Once the geth are destroyed, everyone attacks Sovereign...

5th fleet isn't as big but it would now have the DA and the other citadel fleet units that were not destroyed...Why would the former be a significantly larger force?

Bioware really doesn't understand military tactics/cutscenes very well...not sure which is worse..this or ostagar?

The Alliance fleet movesinto save JUST the DA. Not the rest of the citadel fleet. the battle is stil lgoingwhen they attack the Sovereign.
So no. You don't really have the time to go around gathering more ships.

[Darth_Trethon]

It depends really....but generally speaking a certain amount sacrifices are acceptable. Would it be OK to have the batarians or krogans or volus or hannar or drell all of these wiped out if it means the reapers are destroyed....absolutely yes. Would it be OK to have humanity or quarians or geth or asari or turians or salarians destroyed to defeat the reapers....absolutely not.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 25 décembre 2011 - 10:28 .

[turian councilor Knockout]

Depends, take Arrival for instance sacrifice 300.000 batarians to save the whole universe, yes than it's worth it it's still terrible and almost unthinkable but what choice did he have but more than not i'm against it so to speak it's only worth it if you do more good than bad.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 25 décembre 2011 - 10:26 .

[Biotic Sage]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

It depends really....but generally speaking a certain amount sacrifices are acceptable. Would it be OK to have the batarians or krogans or volus or hannar or drell all of these wiped out if it means the reapers are destroyed....absolutely yes. Would it be OK to have humanity or quarians or geth or asari or turians or asari destroyed to defeat the reapers....absolutely not.

????????????

[Darth_Trethon]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

It depends really....but generally speaking a certain amount sacrifices are acceptable. Would it be OK to have the batarians or krogans or volus or hannar or drell all of these wiped out if it means the reapers are destroyed....absolutely yes. Would it be OK to have humanity or quarians or geth or asari or turians or salarians destroyed to defeat the reapers....absolutely not.

????????????

I know just what you're thinking...but that was a mistake though. I didn't mean to write asari twice, I meant to write salarians in there as well. Fixed now though.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

It depends really....but generally speaking a certain amount sacrifices are acceptable. Would it be OK to have the batarians or krogans or volus or hannar or drell all of these wiped out if it means the reapers are destroyed....absolutely yes. Would it be OK to have humanity or quarians or geth or asari or turians or salarians destroyed to defeat the reapers....absolutely not.

????????????

I know just what you're thinking...but that was a mistake though. I didn't mean to write asari twice, I meant to write salarians in there as well. Fixed now though.

So universal wipe out is better than sacrifice some species and some not make up your mind.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 25 décembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Swampthing500]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...



What from 9.50 onwards and Vigil tells you why Saren is needed.

If Sovereign had already taken control of the station, he does not need to possess Saren's body to kill you. All he needs to do is to wait and bypass the program given by Vigil and bring the Reapers in.

Since he takes control of Saren, it means that control as not been manually transfered. He needs to kill Shepard and use the body to transfer control.

That video clearly states that Saren will transfer control to Sovereign, who will override the current protocols.
Vigil also said that that his file will corrupt the security protocols and give Shep TEMPORARY control of the station.

Saren already transfered control (he was alkreadydone with the console) and Sovy was overriding. When Shep put in vigils file, he TEMPORARILY halted Sovereign.

If that were the case, then there would be no need for Sovereign to take over Saren's body.

We saw what happened once Shepard killed it. Sovereign was stunned and lost it's shields, which allowed the Alliance fleet to destroy it.

Obviously taking control of Saren's body was risky. Why do such a thing unless there was a need to complete the transfer.

Otherwise, just continue activating the Relay, bring in the Reaper fleet, which gaurantees the destruction of all sentient life, including Shepard.

Additionally, Sovereign was docked so he could take control once Saren finished the override. Obviously this required a physical connection.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 25 décembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Biotic Sage]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

It depends really....but generally speaking a certain amount sacrifices are acceptable. Would it be OK to have the batarians or krogans or volus or hannar or drell all of these wiped out if it means the reapers are destroyed....absolutely yes. Would it be OK to have humanity or quarians or geth or asari or turians or salarians destroyed to defeat the reapers....absolutely not.

????????????

I know just what you're thinking...but that was a mistake though. I didn't mean to write asari twice, I meant to write salarians in there as well. Fixed now though.

Well that, but mostly I was thinking why you chose some races as acceptable sacrifices and some as unacceptable.  I mean, isn't that a bit arbitrary?  And I'm guessing you will say that the races like Batarians and Krogans are not as "deserving" of life because they are more violent, but you are using a human value system to make that judgment, so in the context of the universe as a whole it still seems arbitrary to me.

[Darth_Trethon]

The merits of each species could lead to a long, drawn out discussion which I don not want but the general idea behind why I qualified certain races as expandable should be obvious....you may not agree but it should be obvious.

[Yezdigerd]

[quote]Bleachrude wrote...

Another thing I have trouble understanding...

How does "save your forces" actually result in GREATER forces to attack sovereign?

Let's say there is the Citadel fleet (DA plus protection of cruisers/frigates) fighting geth. The 5th fleet comes in and decides to wait...This means that the DA and more citadel crusiers/frigates get destroyed but the geth are taken care of.

5th fleet attack Sovereign now but it will be JUST the 5th fleet.

Conversely, the 5th fleet attacks to provide manoeuvering room for the DA. The 5th fleet loses ships but not as many citadel cruisers/frigates and the DA are saved. Once the geth are destroyed, everyone attacks Sovereign...

5th fleet isn't as big but it would now have the DA and the other citadel fleet units that were not destroyed...Why would the former be a significantly larger force?

Bioware really doesn't understand military tactics/cutscenes very well...not sure which is worse..this or ostagar?[/quote]
[/quote]

I agree, also the notion that you could fight Sovereign while avoiding the Geth. All the Geth need to do is keeping other ships of Sovereign's back, so they can win. For genius level machines they aint that smart. Also a reason I thought  saving the Council was the sensible choice, obviously engaging the Geth was unavoidable.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 25 décembre 2011 - 11:57 .

[Arkitekt]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

The merits of each species could lead to a long, drawn out discussion which I don not want but the general idea behind why I qualified certain races as expandable should be obvious....you may not agree but it should be obvious.

Well, just take out the "absolutely" from your comment, and all will be fine. We end up learning that you have deep prejudices against certain races, that is all.

[Dean_the_Young]

Swampthing500 wrote...

I finished ME 1 again the other day. Usually the Keepers responded to a signal from Sovereign and summoned the other Reapers. Since the Keepers no longer respond, he needed someone else to do it: Saren.

Incorrect.

The Keepers role is to open the relay. Because the Keepers did not, it's up to Sovereign to manually open it. This is why Sovereign has to be at the Citadel at all and expose itself.

Saren's role was twofold: to facilitate the closing of the Citadel to protect Sovereign while it worked, and to make Sovereign's job faster by helping overcome the Prothean sabatoge.  Saren's role was not to open the relay to darkspace in lieu of the Keepers, and Sovereign was not incapable of taking control without Saren.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 décembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

I think the fact that Sovereign feels it's necessary to assume direct control and deal with you lends a hell a lot of credence to the idea.

Which one: that a manual override by a walking person was necessary, or that Sovereign was being worn down by the Alliance fleet and made a guess that accelerating the override with a person was the better option?