529 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Another thing I have trouble understanding...

How does "save your forces" actually result in GREATER forces to attack sovereign?

Let's say there is the Citadel fleet (DA plus protection of cruisers/frigates) fighting geth. The 5th fleet comes in and decides to wait...This means that the DA and more citadel crusiers/frigates get destroyed but the geth are taken care of.

5th fleet attack Sovereign now but it will be JUST the 5th fleet.

Conversely, the 5th fleet attacks to provide manoeuvering room for the DA. The 5th fleet loses ships but not as many citadel cruisers/frigates and the DA are saved. Once the geth are destroyed, everyone attacks Sovereign...

5th fleet isn't as big but it would now have the DA and the other citadel fleet units that were not destroyed...Why would the former be a significantly larger force?

Bioware really doesn't understand military tactics/cutscenes very well...not sure which is worse..this or ostagar?

I agree, also the notion that you could fight Sovereign while avoiding the Geth. All the Geth need to do is keeping other ships of Sovereign's back, so they can win. For genius level machines they aint that smart. Also a reason I thought  saving the Council was the sensible choice, obviously engaging the Geth was unavoidable.

Alas, ships are not like infantry able to turn around at will, the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension are not the only Geth, and it was only the Alliance both in position and understanding the need to destroy Sovereign.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 décembre 2011 - 01:10 .

[Arkitekt]

RowanCF wrote...

Lol. Of course I value my own personal happiness. But I don't value it more than others, when I can help it. That's why I would kill my wife to save three people. There are more of them than me, so overall I have to go with them, even if I still value my own happiness.

Your ethics are abominable and you are a de facto monster if you behave like this. Revaluate your beliefs ASAP because what I've seen you writing about this subject is psychopathic.

Modifié par Arkitekt, 25 décembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Bad Arkitekt! Bad!

That was uncalled for.

[Arkitekt]

Uncalled for? People who do not value their happiness above others and actually believe in these sorts of ethics... you have no idea.

[Bleachrude]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...


[quote]Alas, ships are not like infantry able to turn around at will, the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension are not the only Geth, and it was only the Alliance both in position and understanding the need to destroy Sovereign.
[/quote]

Huh?

This isn't sea ships at all...Of course they can turn around at will...Similarly, why wouldn't the citadel fleet attack the huge ass geth/reaper ship once the smaller geth are dealt with. ..You DO have to deal with the geth in either scenario since they arent goingt o simply move aside and simply let you attack sovereign...

Furthermore, if the geth are exclusively attacking the DA, that would mean they consider it a priority target and I would figure, letting the geth destroy such a target would make no sense...

Usually your arguments are stronger than that Dean...


Bad cutscene/dialog/writing is bad cutscene/dialog/writing

Modifié par Bleachrude, 25 décembre 2011 - 01:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Arkitekt wrote...

Uncalled for? People who do not value their happiness above others and actually believe in these sorts of ethics... you have no idea.

It's a concept called 'sacrifice', which also has to do with such values as 'duty', 'honor', 'integrity', 'selfless service,' IE some of the key virtues for anyone in any military service, and even if you are not.

There are those who place themselves before others, but there are also those who do NOT place themselves before others. To not be the first does not mean you are an uncarring monster, any more than not being the second implying that you are a self-absorbed narcisist and hedonist.


Calling someone who would put the happiness of others before their own 'monsters' is certainly an uncalled for insult.

[Bleachrude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


The Alliance fleet movesinto save JUST the DA. Not the rest of the citadel fleet. the battle is stil lgoingwhen they attack the Sovereign.
So no. You don't really have the time to go around gathering more ships.

Time to gather more ships? Um, they are right there, it's not like they're coming in from a relay...The DA was broadcasting for help meaning that citadel ships would ALREADY be trying to fight their way there anyway so it's not like we're talking the distance of the earth to the moon here...(and for mass effect ships, that's what a 30s burn?)

There's also the geth...This is the big one that I don't get..you have to fight the geth ANYWAY since if sovereign comes under attack, their whole job is to save/protect sovereign so why would they let themselves be far away from it. It's not like the geth dont know that the 5th fleet isn't right there at all...

[Dean_the_Young]

Bleachrude wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Alas, ships are not like infantry able to turn around at will, the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension are not the only Geth, and it was only the Alliance both in position and understanding the need to destroy Sovereign.

Huh?

This isn't sea ships at all...Of course they can turn around at will...

No, the sea ship metaphor is appropriate, though 'large plane' also works. Reversing the course of a ship is a drawn out process. Only small ships (like fighters) or those with special cores (the Normandy) are capable of reversing direction quickly. Even the Normandy SR-2 maneuvers closer to a bomber than a modern day fighter, and even fighters can't simply reverse course at will. Trajectories and paths are required.

Similarly, why wouldn't the citadel fleet attack the huge ass geth/reaper ship once the smaller geth are dealt with. ..

Because there are other smaller geth to deal with, the Destiny Ascension still needs to be guarded, and no one on the Citadel side recognizes why the Geth dreadnaught needs to be a priority.

You DO have to deal with the geth in either scenario since they arent goingt o simply move aside and simply let you attack sovereign...

And hence you demonstrate your lack of understanding.

The Geth are not going to be free to move if the Destiny Ascension is destroyed. The Citadel Fleet they are engaging will still be engaging them, because the Citadel Fleet isn't synonymous with 'the Destiny Ascension.' Not only do the Geth forces suffer the same 'can't turn around at will' problems of all major ships in the Mass Effect universe, but they are engaged with the Citadel fleet in what is known in military parlance as a 'holding action.'

Furthermore, if the geth are exclusively attacking the DA, that would mean they consider it a priority target and I would figure, letting the geth destroy such a target would make no sense...

Then you would figure wrong. The priority of war is to achieve your own priorities, not to deny the enemy theirs*. If you do not achieve yours, you will still lose. Your priority is to stop Sovereign... who, if he succedes, will still kill the Council in the Reaper invasion.

*Which, since that is the Geth priority, does make your primary objective equivalent to denying them theirs. A situational example, not an intrensic relationship.

The Geth aren't 'only' fighting the DA: the Geth are elsewhere in the cluster as well, and fighting the Citadel Fleet as well. The DA is a target of opportunity: more valuable than other dreadnaughts, perhaps, but far beloy your pr

Usually your arguments are stronger than that Dean...

That's flattering, considering this one is actually stronger than yours. That must mean you find my arguments very strong indeed in general.

Bad cutscene/dialog/writing is bad cutscene/dialog/writing

And armchair officers are armchair officers.

Cutscenes can always be improved, but they gave you enough to know the context and their intended setup.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 décembre 2011 - 01:39 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Alright so here's your dilemma: You know for a fact, with 100% certainty that killing your wife will save 3 other people who were going to die if you otherwise did nothing.  Killing your wife would be a bigger "net happiness" gain overall.  You gonna kill her?

Dear boy, you are completely ignoring the net happiness gain from living in a society where men do not murder their wives.

My wife or three strangers is a no-brainer.  Sorry dudes: I love the girl.  This is not really a dilemma for a utilitarian since it's also better for society that we do not compromise our standards of societal decency over three guys.  (See also: "we do not negotiate with terrorists".  Sacrificing the hostages is the utilitarian approach; saving them is the deontological one.)

Now...my wife or the nuclear launch codes?  Sorry baby.  I'll meet you in hell, near the bar.

Oh and Merry Christmas, everybody!

[goofyomnivore]

Saren was dead as far as Shep knows in game. Saren's only purpose to Sovereign was to unlock the stuff or he wouldn't of gone through all the trouble pimping Saren out. So at the time Shepard makes the choice the battle has already significantly turned. I don't think saving the DA is irrational, nor is going for Sovereign when you had it on the ropes. Personally, I don't really save the Council, I save the DA because in the future it could be really useful. It is our largest and most powerful ship. Also keeping the Council alive boosts overall morale and political aspects IMO.

Modifié par strive, 25 décembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Yezdigerd]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Alas, ships are not like infantry able to turn around at will, the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension are not the only Geth, and it was only the Alliance both in position and understanding the need to destroy Sovereign.

And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it. Since the Alliance fleet is capable of engaging and destroying both the Geth and Sovereign, it's strange if the the Geth ships would technically unable to reach Sovereign. And again, it doesn't change the fact that even if it would be so, why engage the Citadel forces outside support range of Sovereign? Destroying the DA or anything else is irrelevant. All they have to do is keep Sovereign clear and they win.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 25 décembre 2011 - 02:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Alas, ships are not like infantry able to turn around at will, the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension are not the only Geth, and it was only the Alliance both in position and understanding the need to destroy Sovereign.

And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it.

Perhaps you should watch cutscenes.

Since the Alliance fleet is capable of engaging and destroying both the Geth and Sovereign, it's strange if the the Geth ships would technically unable to reach Sovereign.

How much do you understand the concept of intercept trajectories? 

And again, it doesn't change the fact that even if it would be so, why engage the Citadel forces outside support range of Sovereign?

Because the station arms were closed at the time, and the relays sealed. They were positioned to stop the Citadel forces from beating Sovereign... but the DA and it's group was not one of those groups.

Destroying the DA or anything else is irrelevant. All they have to do is keep Sovereign clear and they win.

And unfortunately for them, Shepard changed the battlefield, turning their unbeatable position into one of inability to stop the Alliance reinforcements.

[Yezdigerd]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Alas, ships are not like infantry able to turn around at will, the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension are not the only Geth, and it was only the Alliance both in position and understanding the need to destroy Sovereign.

And were in the game is this knowledge of the limitations of Geth naval manuverability?, I certainly missed it.

Perhaps you should watch cutscenes.

I did.

Since the Alliance fleet is capable of engaging and destroying both the Geth and Sovereign, it's strange if the the Geth ships would technically unable to reach Sovereign.

How much do you understand the concept of intercept trajectories?

I know what the words means, I don't have degree in physics if that is what you mean. Not that I think the game designers intented for it to be required. I also find it amusing that you assume that mass effect physics is the same as ordinary physics and that the Geth's ship relative speed and trajectories renders them unable to come to Sovereigns assistance. I certainly wouldn't have put the fate of the galaxy on that blindly.

And again, it doesn't change the fact that even if it would be so, why engage the Citadel forces outside support range of Sovereign?

Because the station arms were closed at the time, and the relays sealed. They were positioned to stop the Citadel forces from beating Sovereign... but the DA and it's group was not one of those groups.

Then it shouldn't have been engaged, or fought down in concert. I can't see how spreading out the fighting serves any purpose. Also isn't the renegade version that the DA is incapable of fighting and not worth saving?

Destroying the DA or anything else is irrelevant. All they have to do is keep Sovereign clear and they win.

And unfortunately for them, Shepard changed the battlefield, turning their unbeatable position into one of inability to stop the Alliance reinforcements.

Yeah and he could save the council too! A great thing in all.

[Fishy]

ediskrad327 wrote...

at the cost of loosing everything we know. yes, some sacrifices would be hard, some will be hard. i will avoid sacrificing lives if possible, but i will if it is necessary to win this war

And how do you know it's neccessary? Shepard Killed 100 000 batarians and did that change anything?
The difference between a hero and a monster can be very tin and I would never have jeopardized what make me a human being. The Shepard that murdered 100K batarians was not my Shepard. Anyway.

Maybe the galaxies will be wiped than be it . i will do everything to stop it but I won't Kill millions of innocent to do it.

Modifié par Suprez30, 25 décembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[Spectreshadow]

 To be completely honest if I was in a position of power where the fate of the galaxy is at stake I would be willing to do whatever it took to survive.  This is how I plan on playing the first round of ME3.

[AgitatedLemon]

Suprez30 wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

at the cost of loosing everything we know. yes, some sacrifices would be hard, some will be hard. i will avoid sacrificing lives if possible, but i will if it is necessary to win this war

And how do you know it's neccessary? Shepard Killed 100 000 batarians and did that change anything?
The difference between a hero and a monster can be very tin and I would never have jeopardized what make me a human being. The Shepard that murdered 100K batarians was not my Shepard. Anyway.

Maybe the galaxies will be wiped than be it . i will do everything to stop it but I won't Kill millions of innocent to do it.

So you'd rather the entire galaxy go extinct than sacrifice the 300,000 batarians?

Remind me to never select you as a squadmate.

[Spectreshadow]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

at the cost of loosing everything we know. yes, some sacrifices would be hard, some will be hard. i will avoid sacrificing lives if possible, but i will if it is necessary to win this war

And how do you know it's neccessary? Shepard Killed 100 000 batarians and did that change anything?
The difference between a hero and a monster can be very tin and I would never have jeopardized what make me a human being. The Shepard that murdered 100K batarians was not my Shepard. Anyway.

Maybe the galaxies will be wiped than be it . i will do everything to stop it but I won't Kill millions of innocent to do it.

So you'd rather the entire galaxy go extinct than sacrifice the 300,000 batarians?

Remind me to never select you as a squadmate.

This is exactly my thought process.  Sacrifice a few to save the many.  If the Reapers aren't stopped everyone is going to die.  If you are afraid to make sacrifices for the greater good you are going to end up with a pretty empty galaxy.

[DonutsDealer]

Suprez30 wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

at the cost of loosing everything we know. yes, some sacrifices would be hard, some will be hard. i will avoid sacrificing lives if possible, but i will if it is necessary to win this war

And how do you know it's neccessary? Shepard Killed 100 000 batarians and did that change anything?
The difference between a hero and a monster can be very tin and I would never have jeopardized what make me a human being. The Shepard that murdered 100K batarians was not my Shepard. Anyway.

Maybe the galaxies will be wiped than be it . i will do everything to stop it but I won't Kill millions of innocent to do it.

It was 300 000 batarians actually. And no matter what those batarians were dead. By Shepard or by the reapers, who would arrive in the Bahak system in 2 days. Also, you won't sacrifice millions. That is a shortsighted point of view. If you don't kill them, the reapers will with the difference that you screwed the whole galaxy. So you wouldn't have saved those millions of people but you killed all sapient-civilization in the galaxy.

[GreenDragon37]

Depends. I may kill ten to save one hundred, but I won't deny that it was an evil act.

In terms of Mass Effect: Come ME3 a lot of my main-Shep's Paragon-ish attitudes might be thrown out of the window because of the Reaper invasion. **** has hit the fan, and if I have to sacriice millions to end the genocidal cycle of the Reapers... than so be it.

[AlexXIV]

Arrival was indeed useless from a storytelling point of view. It was for once foreshadowing of the Reaper invasion and a sort of teaser. Also Bioware meant to give an idea what sacrifice means. If you sacrifice everything to win, you also may have to sacrifice your virtues, your reputation, etc.

The 300.000 people would have died anyway. If not by Shepard, then by the incomming Reaper fleet. Shepard bought the galaxy time. Not much, mind you. But I guess delaying the invasion even only a couple of months is justified when the sacrifice is 300.000 people who die anyway. The only thing Shepard really sacrifices is his reputation.

Also to answer the OP. The end does not always justify the means. Especially not if the same or a better end can be possible by using more civilised means. It is always a question of judgement what means you are going to use to reach your goal. I personally don't think that the phrase 'sacrifice everything if needed' means that you should sacrifice as much as possible. Imo it is the good judgement of a proper hero that makes him reach the goal with fewer sacrifices than expected.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...



What from 9.50 onwards and Vigil tells you why Saren is needed.

If Sovereign had already taken control of the station, he does not need to possess Saren's body to kill you. All he needs to do is to wait and bypass the program given by Vigil and bring the Reapers in.

Since he takes control of Saren, it means that control as not been manually transfered. He needs to kill Shepard and use the body to transfer control.

That video clearly states that Saren will transfer control to Sovereign, who will override the current protocols.
Vigil also said that that his file will corrupt the security protocols and give Shep TEMPORARY control of the station.

Saren already transfered control (he was alkreadydone with the console) and Sovy was overriding. When Shep put in vigils file, he TEMPORARILY halted Sovereign.

If that were the case, then there would be no need for Sovereign to take over Saren's body.

We saw what happened once Shepard killed it. Sovereign was stunned and lost it's shields, which allowed the Alliance fleet to destroy it.

Obviously taking control of Saren's body was risky. Why do such a thing unless there was a need to complete the transfer.

TIME. That's why.

Sovereing might regain control in several minutes, but with a whole 5th fleet attacking him, and what's left of the Citadel fleet soon to join, wouldn't it be smart to hurry it up?

Additionally, Sovereign was docked so he could take control once Saren finished the override. Obviously this required a physical connection.

He could have undocked, wiped the fleet out, and re-docked once Saren transfered control. Was there any REAL need to stay and wait?

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...

[quote]Bleachrude wrote...

Another thing I have trouble understanding...

How does "save your forces" actually result in GREATER forces to attack sovereign?

Let's say there is the Citadel fleet (DA plus protection of cruisers/frigates) fighting geth. The 5th fleet comes in and decides to wait...This means that the DA and more citadel crusiers/frigates get destroyed but the geth are taken care of.

5th fleet attack Sovereign now but it will be JUST the 5th fleet.

Conversely, the 5th fleet attacks to provide manoeuvering room for the DA. The 5th fleet loses ships but not as many citadel cruisers/frigates and the DA are saved. Once the geth are destroyed, everyone attacks Sovereign...

5th fleet isn't as big but it would now have the DA and the other citadel fleet units that were not destroyed...Why would the former be a significantly larger force?

Bioware really doesn't understand military tactics/cutscenes very well...not sure which is worse..this or ostagar?[/quote]
[/quote]

I agree, also the notion that you could fight Sovereign while avoiding the Geth. All the Geth need to do is keeping other ships of Sovereign's back, so they can win. For genius level machines they aint that smart. Also a reason I thought  saving the Council was the sensible choice, obviously engaging the Geth was unavoidable.
[/quote]


Damaged and crippled ships would be of little use, when traded wiht fresh ones. And 5th fleet is powerfull enouhg - it had dreadnoughts.
Why are you assuming the fight is over? Why are you assuming the rest of the citadel fleet will fall in line? They don't take orders from Shep and hteir orders are to evacuate the council.
Haver you seen ANY citadel fleet ship join the 5th fleet in the attack? no.
Because you are saving the DA.
That's the order - save the DA. NOT the rest of the citadel fleet. Just the crippled dreadnought.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bleachrude wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


The Alliance fleet movesinto save JUST the DA. Not the rest of the citadel fleet. the battle is stil lgoingwhen they attack the Sovereign.
So no. You don't really have the time to go around gathering more ships.

Time to gather more ships? Um, they are right there, it's not like they're coming in from a relay...The DA was broadcasting for help meaning that citadel ships would ALREADY be trying to fight their way there anyway so it's not like we're talking the distance of the earth to the moon here...(and for mass effect ships, that's what a 30s burn?)

Canonical distances are bigger than cutscenes, keep that in mind. In a normal battle you wouldn't be able to see ships at all, given that they would be 10 000 kilometers away at least.

So yes, you don't have time. You don't risk fully operation and working ships to rescue a few damaged ones that will nott be in any use on the battle (andthat dont' join the battle in the first place)

There's also the geth...This is the big one that I don't get..you have to fight the geth ANYWAY since if sovereign comes under attack, their whole job is to save/protect sovereign so why would they let themselves be far away from it. It's not like the geth dont know that the 5th fleet isn't right there at all...

The geth are already engaged. Aslo distances in space. Mind you, that changing your heading in space is FAR more difficult and time consuming than on Earth. It also makes you a sitting duck, since you first have to cancel your delta-v.