22 réponses à ce sujet

[davidabm1]

 Ok, I recently installed Sword Cost Stratagems II for a new play through, including the component that gives appropriate enemies High Level Abilities in SoA and ToB.  I assumed though, perhaps foolishly, that with the possible exception of Tolgarias or whoever it is that you face at the end of the Planar Sphere (which I therefore decided to do last in ch.3) quest that I wouldn't have to face anyone who uses them until after I came back from the Underdark. To my surprise however, the Prison Warden in the Astral Prison where you go to rescure Haer'Daelis and the other actors seems to have both mage and cleric HLAs (i.e. when I run into him he both casts Blade Barrier and drops a Dark Planetar on my head...). Now, I suppose I really shouldn't have been surprised by this. The Warden is clear a pretty powerful being if this really is 'one of the worst prisons in the planes' and all that, and so storywise it makes total sense for him to have HLAs. I also understand that most people who've installed SCSII are very, very good players who can beat almost anything in the vanilla game with any level of party, even without extreme cheese. But whilst I love the game dearly, i'm not especially good at it (it's been plenty enough challenge just dealing with the fact that almost all mages now have the sense to cast spell immunity: divination and shadow door combos), and so I'd like some advice on how to defeat a HLA casting demon surrounded by Yuan-Ti mages with a bunch of L11 NPCs. (Party is a Sorceror, Keldorn, Minsc, Mazzy and Aerie). I don't care how cheesy the tactic is (though it can't involve traps as I have no thief right now-no locks in the astral prison), I just don't want to have to go back to before entering the prison, since I've already worked my way through several fights. About the only useful item I have is the wand of cloudkill. I have tried the 'cast cloudkill and run away tactic' but I get chased by a Dark Planetar, which is frankly a bit much for my party already, never mind someone who can summon one(!). Bear in mind I also have no scrolls etc. 

Thanks to anyone who helps

[morbidest2]

Does Keldorn have Carsomyr yet? In any case, I would load up your Sorc with Summons and Aerie with Breach and MMMs and pray a lot. If after a number of futile reloads, I would even consider dropping to Easy for this final battle as an alternate to doing other quests first and coming back later.

[amanasleep]

Please post your Sorc spell list.

Aside from that, you should know that the warden sees through invisibility via script, which means that if you send one invisible character into range, the warden will see you while the Yuan-ti mages won't, so you can then have you character run pack to the party and the warden will follow by himself.

I believe he will have Globe of Invulnerability up, along with SI Div, Improved Invis, Mislead, and various Weapon, elemental damage, and spell protections up. The best response to this is to spam Chaos at him. However this will be a problem if your Sorc doesn't know the spell.

To get past Mislead, you need to have True Seeing active before the fight starts (Aerie should be the invisible mage who leads him away). Then you can cast Pierce Magic near his real position to bring down his Globe (you will need multiple castings if he also has Spell Deflection/Turning up), after which you can cast breach. This is why Chaos is easier.

[Grond0]

You might be better off being patient. The one character that leads him away could be a potential sacrifice, with the others waiting well away until his various buffs have worn off.

[ussnorway]

One of the easiest sure-fire ways to kill him is with a scroll of ‘Death Fog’... you get one for free whilst wiping out the slum district slavers. The timing isn’t that hard as long as you destroy the control collar first then the thrulls should keep his interest long enough to deliver the artillery... remember that it is an AOE so you don’t actually need to see the master before you drop the bomb on him but it's normaly a good idea to retreat a bit.

[Incantatar]

Why don't you just uninstall the HLA component? Afaik every enemy with lvl 9 spells will have HLAs. You say you are not an expert in the game but you install components even many experts find unappealing.

@ussnorway
You should post that in the SCS2 forums as it's obviously a bad ai script.

[polytope]

Incantatar wrote...

@ussnorway
You should post that in the SCS2 forums as it's obviously a bad ai script.

It's not easily fixed, SCS creatures are instructed to flee from clouds (if they don't have a target), but the RunAwayFrom() command runs them into walls (and not out of the range of the area of effect) quite frequently. Seems to be a pathfinding problem.

Modifié par polytope, 26 décembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[polytope]

amanasleep wrote...

 The best response to this is to spam Chaos at him. However this will be a problem if your Sorc doesn't know the spell. 

I prefer not to use Chaos against the highest level mages, especially magic resistant ones like drow and the warden. Once you consider improved invisibility and blur, the odds of it taking hold are rather poor.

A dark planetar moves fast (much more so than the warden), so they can be separated quite easily. Dark planetars regenerate quickly as well, so the slow effect of the flail of ages is useful. Mazzy probably has the best save vs death and AC, so should tank the planetar with Ilbratha. He'll also use insect plague, so protect your mages with fire-shield (blocks insect spells with SCS).

That said, I don't like SoA mages with HLA's, I don't like to use HLA's in SoA either, they weren't designed for that stage of the game.

[Incantatar]

polytope wrote...

That said, I don't like SoA mages with HLA's, I don't like to use HLA's in SoA either, they weren't designed for that stage of the game.

Me too. I recommend the G3 Tweakpack component where HLA's get delayed.

[silenceall]

davidabm1 wrote...

 ...surrounded by Yuan-Ti mages with a bunch of L11 NPCs...

I don't know what changes SCSII makes, but in a vanilla game, if you destroy the orb (retrieved by killing the Master of Thralls) these "extras" will turn on the Warden and be dead by the time you get there.  I would think that would help at least a little.  Then you just have to deal with the Warden and his HLAs.

[Incantatar]

silenceall wrote...

I don't know what changes SCSII makes, but in a vanilla game, if you destroy the orb (retrieved by killing the Master of Thralls) these "extras" will turn on the Warden and be dead by the time you get there.  I would think that would help at least a little.  Then you just have to deal with the Warden and his HLAs.

In SCS you won't really see much of a fight. It's over after a few seconds and the Warden and 2 of his Yuan-Ti mages wait for you. To the right is a random spawn point where several other Yuan-Ti (mages) appear.

[Carinna]

Actually, the yuan-ti mages are still there in the vanilla game as well.

[Alesia_BH]

I've gotten in the habit of doing the SCS Planar Prison early with my solo No Reload characters. And while the Warden does not drop a Planetar in my install, you may be able to adapt the general approach. Here's an outline of how it works.

1) Equip the Boots of Speed. Have an Oil of Speed at the ready. Buff saves into the highly negative range using potions and spells. Buff spell damage resistance to further mitigate risk. Have a Potion of Magic Shielding and Invisibility options amongst others at the ready to counter debuffing.

2) Approach invisible. Draw the Warden far, far away from the Yuan-Ti (being sure not to break invisibility with an offensive action). Reserve aura for defensive counters. Counter buff removal immediately.

3) Using Invisibility+Specific Protections to foil his ranged avenues and a movement rate advantage to lock out the melee option, evade the Warden until his Abjuration schol weapons protections wear off.

4) Once he is not longer protected from weaponry, activate Ring of Air Control Improved Invisibility and then use Dispelling Arrows (if available) followed by Elemental Arrows to disrupt his spells. Each round- as soon as he has been disrupted- switch to Darts of Stunning. Rinse and repeat. He'll fail his save against Stun eventually and can be finished (NW: If he is running anti-Stun Specific Protections in your install, you'll have to knock those out first of course. Also, if you have the ToBex No Disruption When Immune to Damage tweak installed, be sure he is vulnerable to the elemental damage on your arrows. Elemental Arrows and Darts of Stunning can both be found in the Prison if you haven't brought your own. Don't use Fire Arrows to disrupt since they offer a save.)

With a party, I would likely use one character as above, and leave the rest far out of the way in phases 1-3. The Warden would be lead to the party in Phase 4 with the PC comprehensively protected.

Best of luck!

A.

Btw: Were the Warden to use a Planetar against one of my characters, that would change little: the duration on Summon Planetar is commensurate with that of the sum of his Abjuration school weapons defenses. The Planetar would simply float around during the evasion phase until unsummoned. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 29 décembre 2011 - 04:03 .

[Incantatar]

Carinna wrote...

Actually, the yuan-ti mages are still there in the vanilla game as well.

I just saw Umber Hulks in Vanilla. So it's random/level dependent. And Yuan-Ti mages are far far more dangerous in SCSII.

[Alesia_BH]

The creatures that spawn are the same as in vanilla though the Spawn Difficulty component can effect which ones you get at a given experience level (In my setup, with Significantly Improved Spawn Difficulty installed, the Yuan-Ti kick in at 400k.). Aside from that, it's the scripts that differ and I agree with Incantatar that the SCS Yuan-Ti are much more of a threat.

Best,

A.

Btw. The Spawn in Mekrath's bedroom will mirror the one you'll get in the Planar Prison assuming you don't cross the threshold between there and the Prison. If you aren't sure what the exp cutoffs are in your setup and are worried about spawn difficulty it can make sense to note the ones in the bedroom before committing to the Prison lock-in.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 29 décembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[Carinna]

Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't trying to imply that SCS was no more difficult than vanilla (I know it's more difficult which is why I don't play it). I was actually replying to the poster who said he didn't believe there was anything except the warden to confront in vanilla if you free the thralls. I was just trying to say that there were more things there than the warden, even after the thralls had been freed. Should have quoted the post.

[Alesia_BH]

Understood.

My suspicion is that in Silencall's experience, the Thralls nixed the Warden's support in vanilla leaving naught but the Warden. Incantatar then noted that in SCS, the Thralls get thrashed and the Warden remains well supported by the time you get there.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 29 décembre 2011 - 11:01 .

[Carinna]

Alesia_BH wrote...
My suspicion is that in Silencall's experience, the Thralls nixed the Warden's support in vanilla leaving naught but the Warden. Incantatar then noted that in SCS, the Thralls get thrashed and the Warden remains well supported by the time you get there.

It's possible the level of support received from the thralls is set by game difficulty.  Every time I've played, there are indeed the remnant of bodies around the warden (thralls and maybe some of his supporters?) but there is also a good number of yuan-ti and/or umber hulks.  I was not speaking of trying to fight him without freeing the thralls first - I've always freed the thralls.

Alternatively, I suppose that since the level of the party determines who will be fighting with the warden (umber hulks and/or yuan-ti or a combination) if he's faced very very early on, possibly he has no support (assuming the thralls are freed)?  In vanilla.

[Alesia_BH]

Makes sense.

[silenceall]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Understood.

My suspicion is that in Silencall's experience, the Thralls nixed the Warden's support in vanilla leaving naught but the Warden. Incantatar then noted that in SCS, the Thralls get thrashed and the Warden remains well supported by the time you get there.

Yes, that's right. In vanilla you just have to wait a few moments to make sure they take each other out.  I should have known that SCS would have limited the damage done by the thralls.

[silenceall]

Carinna wrote...

Alesia_BH wrote...
My suspicion is that in Silencall's experience, the Thralls nixed the Warden's support in vanilla leaving naught but the Warden. Incantatar then noted that in SCS, the Thralls get thrashed and the Warden remains well supported by the time you get there.

It's possible the level of support received from the thralls is set by game difficulty.  Every time I've played, there are indeed the remnant of bodies around the warden (thralls and maybe some of his supporters?) but there is also a good number of yuan-ti and/or umber hulks.  I was not speaking of trying to fight him without freeing the thralls first - I've always freed the thralls.

Alternatively, I suppose that since the level of the party determines who will be fighting with the warden (umber hulks and/or yuan-ti or a combination) if he's faced very very early on, possibly he has no support (assuming the thralls are freed)?  In vanilla.

Sorry, missed this post.  Lately I've been doing the Planar Prison rather late (level 15+) with a solo sorcerer so I would think the Warden would have the highest level support possible.  It is still my experience that all supporters and thralls are carcasses.

[Carinna]

silenceall wrote...

Sorry, missed this post.  Lately I've been doing the Planar Prison rather late (level 15+) with a solo sorcerer so I would think the Warden would have the highest level support possible.  It is still my experience that all supporters and thralls are carcasses.

Interesting.  Maybe we can figure out what sets up the difficulty in this battle, as I also play this late, although I've never done it solo (it's one of the hardest battles available in chapter 2, IMO, especially since you're stuck in the planar prison until you complete it).  Here are the mechanics of my game:

play level "normal" (I only play on core if I am competing in a challenge that requires it)
Mods used:
Fixpack
Tweakpack, for conveniences, removal of xp cap, and to set the game to pnp rules
I've swapped other mods in and out (romance mods, rogue rebalancing, etc., but never use any difficulty-enhancing mods or mod components)
Usually use a full party for the planar prison (or if not, at least a party of 5).  I tried once with a party of 2 and failed miserably.  I've never done it solo.
I have always freed the thralls before confronting the warden (so I've never seen what happens if you don't)

I can't say at exactly what level I do this quest, since I've played it many times with different classes, and I really don't pay attention to that unless I'm looking for it.  But I usually reserve it until last (tie between this and Firkraag) in Chapter 2 or 3.  And I try to do all the available quests before heading off to Spellhold (though many times this one and Firkraag get left until I get back).

As I said, when I fight the warden, the least I have ever faced is the warden plus two yuan-ti mages.  There are bodies all over the place around him - they look like thralls and some lizardmen (not the the graphics of dead bodies are really clear).

If you could post some more mechanics of your game (and maybe have others do so too, maybe we can determine where the break lines are; although I realize this takes the thread way off topic as it has nothing to do with SCS.

[DMWW]

It's based on the protagonist's XP. The bands are

<400K: Salamanders
400K-1M: Salamanders and one yuan-ti mage
1M-2M: Minotaur and five umber hulks
2M+: 3 yuan-ti, 3 yuan-ti mages

SCSII leaves the bands alone but moves the monsters down one band for "slightly increase difficulty", two bands for "significantly increase difficulty", and three bands for "maximum difficulty".