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How to avoid an **** pull or deus ex machina for defeating the Reapers?


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#151
Swampthing500

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Rovay wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Some people could really stand the common courtesy of discussing major spoilers in a group specifically for discussing spoilers, rather than dump them out here for people trying to avoid them.


Minor spoilers are one thing, but damn people. Have the sense god gave to a gerbil.


So the blatant message saying SPOILERS BELOW! isn't enough for some people to skip the post? I don't know how we can make it any more clear.


Ever tried greying out the spoilered part of your post? Works wonders I heard.


If people are too stupid to read the "SPOILERS!" warning then there is no point making our posts idiot-friendly.

#152
Dean_the_Young

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I have particular views on Humanity, and I can always thank the Bioware forums for validating them.

Carry on, you champions of... whatever you think you champion.

#153
BiO

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Ahem, I'd just like to say that the Cypher is probably going to play a part in all of this.

/has not read the leak

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:32 .


#154
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Nashiktal wrote...

@100k

Lets never assume that we can pull something the old machines won't expect at least combat wise. They have been at this for a long time and have bound to... Well seen some ****.


That's the point though. You CAN'T beat the reapers via a conventional fleet conflict. The idea that you could would be ridiculous. You need to combine fleet strength (as a distraction) witih other means, all of which involve striking the reapers with less conventional means.

#155
Gabey5

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The time window is too small for study

the rapers invade a few months after me 2, even if we could pull something out of our ass in that time frame how could we get out to the fleets doing battle across the galaxy

#156
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[quote]Someone With Mass wrote...
1) Prepare to be surprised.[/quote]

Haven't read all of the leak.

[quote]2) What says that we aren't picking those?[/quote]

I'm not saying we haven't

[quote]3) The Reapers are using quantum entanglement communications at the speed of light. Unless you can place those jammers exactly everywhere in Reaper space and let them be operational at all times without the risk of the Reapers blowing them up, it won't be that effective. It's not even guaranteed that it's possible to negate indoctrination without introducing another mind control agent.[/quote]

Well, we know that some form of quantum entanglement was aboard the collector base, as Harbinger used it to command the collectors. Could that perhaps be manipulated to give away reaper locations (the idea being that the base can contact reapers)? I doubt Harbinger would suspect that Shepard would keep the base, so he might not see that coming.  What about the other things on my list?

[quote]4)
-Giant objects we know little to nothing about.[/quote]

I'm not saying that I know anything about them, I'm saying that a dev, given liberties, could tailor them to meet the needs of the story/war effort.

[quote]-The batarians were pretty much wiped out by the Reapers long before the attack on Earth and the stragglers probably won't put up that much of a fight.
-Is probably located in the batarian systems. Not a good idea to challenge the Reapers that way.[/quote]

We know that part of the batarians were wiped out, but I doubt that the entire species, home world, etc was completely wiped out. Especially since the batarians have been space capable longer than humans.

[quote]-There is no Reaper homeworld. That would defeat the purpose of having a mobile fleet to retreat with into dark space and conceal the evidence of their existence.[/quote]

I'm not pulling stuff out of my ass here. There was a *cut dialogue/text file for ME2 (I think) that referred tot the reapers as "monsters from the id", on an abandoned world. Now, whether cut becaue it may have been a bad idea, or cut so as to not spoil ME3, I don't know. But it seemed likely to me that this was at least a glimpse into reaper history-- as well as a Farscape reference. 

[quote]-Yeah, the worst they can do there is to strike the Reapers with lightning. I think they're grounded and safe from that if they can discharge their cores.[/quote]

Funny. I was actually thinking something more along the lines of using weather cover to hide species populations, technological experiments, and possibly assisting the quarians in re-development. 


[quote]-The race that gets pissed off the second you talk bad about them and the fact that they killed the representatives of the last community that tried to raise them? Not to mention that the krogans had some pretty major consequences? Yeah, no...[/quote]

There are two reasons I thought this plan.

1) Because, regardless of whether the council helps the Yahg, the reapers WILL try to wipe them out. They won't risk a near space flight prepared species to come to power right after they take out the existing interstellar civilizations and leave the galaxy for another 50,000 years. That could be catastrophic for their next cycle.

2) Because, in a war against the reapers, the allied races don't get the privilege of weighing the pros and cons of uplifting certain *near space flight prepared* species. There are really only pros. You either get everyone together to fight this threat which comes every 50,000 years to wipe out all life in the galaxy, or you don't. Worrying about the aftermath of such a conflict is useless. You have to take the reasoning that if you can defeat the reapers, you can defeat anything. 

On top of that it would leave, even a pefect ending in ME3, with a message: the galaxy continues to have problems. But hopefully they'll be able to work together to solve them. Hell, the Terminus is practically founded on that principle.

[quote]-You mean the same race that was easily influenced by indoctrination? Good plan.[/quote]

No, you're right. We better be prepared to cut out all races that can be easily manipulated by 50 million year old machines. I'll start by cutting out the races with the potential for the most damage...

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Yeeouch. Geth, krogan, asari, turians, and *le gasp* humans! ME3 is gonna be one innovative experience. Shepard'll probably retire at the beginning of the game to avoid his race getting indoctrinated quickly like Kenson. No asari or turian aid, as they'll likely go into a mode of isolation. Krogan will probably just stay on their rock, and the geth will probably just hide behind the Veil. 

But don't worry, salarians, krell, and quarians. At least your alliance is safe.

(would you like to wake up, Mass?)

[quote]-What about them?[/quote] 

Other sapient species? Oh, I dunno. Maybe they would like to fight for their survival against the reapers, possibly even give us their own insight into the old machines? Naaaaaaaaaaaah, that sounds like a stretch.

[quote]-That's what we're doing. Checking those artifacts for valuables.[/quote]

Great.

[quote]5) Again, who says that we don't have information networks?[/quote]

I'm not saying we don't, Mass. Sheesh. I'm saying that we need to combine and reform them for the purpose of this war. You think Cerberus is gonna want to work with the SB? Or STG? Besides, thats secondary to the amount of knowledge each of these has respectively.

[quote]6) We've just slightly leveled the play field. They also know very much about us too, thanks to the Collectors and possibly Sovereign.[/quote]

Very true. However, without Nazara to activate the citadel conduit, or the Collectors to act as spies, OR their bae to create a reaper or collector army, OR the relay controls to limit transportation, the reapers aren't exactly in a comfortable position. Millions-- possibly billions of years of cycle tactics disrupted because they under estimated the bacteria that is Shepard.

[quote]That's why they're attacking fast in a large group to ensure that the major military factions like the humans or the turians won't oppose them.[/quote]

Also true. Brute force as their last (and easily  strongest) resort. Nobody can hope to defeat a reaper fleet in combat.

#157
Random citizen

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Random citizen wrote...

Some general thoughts will contain me2 spoliers for those of you that has not yet finished it:

If I would have been lead designer (or whatever you want to call it) I would probably have stuck with the consequences of having to face god-like foes.No cop-outs or deus ex machina.
Except for the real "deus ex machinas" namely the reapers and.... the Geth.

My spontaneous thought is that I would have designed the story so that you can not defeat the reapers without the Geth. The Geths own "ascension-project" (their mega structure) is what will allow victory. How much this victory would cost would be determined by how united the rest of the galaxy is (basically how much you can slow down the reapers without loosing everyone) and how well Sheps team preforms in their precision strikes against reaper forces and so on.
That ending would involve the Geth super structure either being destroyed (killing of 99%) of the Geth (heretics not re-written, so they have to rebuild and start over) or survive (and function as a sentry and guardian of the galaxy as a few reapers escape back into dark space). In this end, the home worlds of the galactic community survives although marred and the cost of victory would be heavy in lives.

Without the Geth, there would be no victory, but there would be the possibility to hide and survive. The functions of the military might of the united races of the galaxy would ultimately turn out to be about buying time for safeguarding the legacy of the galactic community, similar to the protheans of Ilos, but a more prepared version. When the reapers leave, the survivors live in hiding on a planet, building for the future.


Roughly, thats pretty much how I would have done it.


Shamelessly bumping my own post in order to get some feedbeack. Thoughts?

#158
DRACO1130

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Paula Deen wrote...

If you think about it, the only good way to avoid it is to use something hinted at or introduced in the first two games, especially when you consider that the Reapers are supposed to be individually capable of engaging entire fleets by themselves--and winning.

So a superweapon of some kind (or some achillies heel that was hinted at in ME1/2) is the only option.

I sincerely hope that it won't be something entirely new to ME3, because it kind of renders ME2 pointless and just feels like being cheated. ME1 and ME2 repeatedly established the Reapers as being far too strong for even a united galaxy to defeat (otherwise, some kind of defense would have been at least hinted at, right?), so ME3's plot just feels a lot more like "find a superweapon out of nowhere" than a culmination of your efforts in ME1 and ME2.


uhmmm Flawed from the get go.

Individual reapers are NOT capable of taking on entire fleets by themselves and winning - Vigil said as much on Ilos and Soveriegn did not simply go take on the fleet and win - Even hadn't Soveriegn gone insane when Saren's husk was destroyed, the reaper would have fallen in battle. 
you do nto require a Superwweapon nor any kind of dues ex machina - you need the intestinal fortitude to make the truly HARD choices - the good of the many must outweigh the needs of the few.

#159
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#160
PnXMarcin1PL

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DRACO1130 wrote...

Paula Deen wrote...

If you think about it, the only good way to avoid it is to use something hinted at or introduced in the first two games, especially when you consider that the Reapers are supposed to be individually capable of engaging entire fleets by themselves--and winning.

So a superweapon of some kind (or some achillies heel that was hinted at in ME1/2) is the only option.

I sincerely hope that it won't be something entirely new to ME3, because it kind of renders ME2 pointless and just feels like being cheated. ME1 and ME2 repeatedly established the Reapers as being far too strong for even a united galaxy to defeat (otherwise, some kind of defense would have been at least hinted at, right?), so ME3's plot just feels a lot more like "find a superweapon out of nowhere" than a culmination of your efforts in ME1 and ME2.


uhmmm Flawed from the get go.

Individual reapers are NOT capable of taking on entire fleets by themselves and winning - Vigil said as much on Ilos and Soveriegn did not simply go take on the fleet and win - Even hadn't Soveriegn gone insane when Saren's husk was destroyed, the reaper would have fallen in battle. 
you do nto require a Superwweapon nor any kind of dues ex machina - you need the intestinal fortitude to make the truly HARD choices - the good of the many must outweigh the needs of the few.


OK, but the Reapers are not that stupid to travel alone. Especially during cycles.

#161
DRACO1130

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it does seem ODD

the Reapers didn't 'collect' the derelict from the Brown Dwarf to avoid its tech being harvested.

Sovereign was the Caretaker Reaper alone

BUT

too many times to count - Reaper tech or prothean tech found and recovered with bad results - arrival episode.

Are the Reapers so overwhelmingly arrogant that they simply CANNOT see the inherent risks in such cavalier disdain for anything non reaper ?

#162
Random citizen

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DRACO1130 wrote...

Paula Deen wrote...

If you think about it, the only good way to avoid it is to use something hinted at or introduced in the first two games, especially when you consider that the Reapers are supposed to be individually capable of engaging entire fleets by themselves--and winning.

So a superweapon of some kind (or some achillies heel that was hinted at in ME1/2) is the only option.

I sincerely hope that it won't be something entirely new to ME3, because it kind of renders ME2 pointless and just feels like being cheated. ME1 and ME2 repeatedly established the Reapers as being far too strong for even a united galaxy to defeat (otherwise, some kind of defense would have been at least hinted at, right?), so ME3's plot just feels a lot more like "find a superweapon out of nowhere" than a culmination of your efforts in ME1 and ME2.


uhmmm Flawed from the get go.

Individual reapers are NOT capable of taking on entire fleets by themselves and winning - Vigil said as much on Ilos and Soveriegn did not simply go take on the fleet and win - Even hadn't Soveriegn gone insane when Saren's husk was destroyed, the reaper would have fallen in battle. 
you do nto require a Superwweapon nor any kind of dues ex machina - you need the intestinal fortitude to make the truly HARD choices - the good of the many must outweigh the needs of the few.


Vigil states that Soverign would not survived the united forces of every spieces. Thats not what happened at the citadel though. But we dont know what would have happened to soverign if Sarens husk would not have been destroyed and the Reaper got BSoD. What we do know is that if Soverign would not had been busy trying to open the citadel relay, it had probably been much better at surviving and dealing death.


#163
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DRACO1130 wrote...

it does seem ODD

the Reapers didn't 'collect' the derelict from the Brown Dwarf to avoid its tech being harvested.

Sovereign was the Caretaker Reaper alone

BUT

too many times to count - Reaper tech or prothean tech found and recovered with bad results - arrival episode.

Are the Reapers so overwhelmingly arrogant that they simply CANNOT see the inherent risks in such cavalier disdain for anything non reaper ?


Its either weak writing or there are more trojan horses there then the younger races expects. 

#164
krossbow

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DRACO1130 wrote...

it does seem ODD

the Reapers didn't 'collect' the derelict from the Brown Dwarf to avoid its tech being harvested.

Sovereign was the Caretaker Reaper alone

BUT

too many times to count - Reaper tech or prothean tech found and recovered with bad results - arrival episode.

Are the Reapers so overwhelmingly arrogant that they simply CANNOT see the inherent risks in such cavalier disdain for anything non reaper ?



I don't see why they can't be; Their minds could be messed up from their design. After all, forming your core from the paste of millions of screaming sapient beings can't be healthy for one's mental health.

#165
Random citizen

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krossbow wrote...

DRACO1130 wrote...

it does seem ODD

the Reapers didn't 'collect' the derelict from the Brown Dwarf to avoid its tech being harvested.

Sovereign was the Caretaker Reaper alone

BUT

too many times to count - Reaper tech or prothean tech found and recovered with bad results - arrival episode.

Are the Reapers so overwhelmingly arrogant that they simply CANNOT see the inherent risks in such cavalier disdain for anything non reaper ?



I don't see why they can't be; Their minds could be messed up from their design. After all, forming your core from the paste of millions of screaming sapient beings can't be healthy for one's mental health.


Somehow I doubt the reapers conform to human notions of mental health. ;)

Modifié par Random citizen, 29 décembre 2011 - 08:10 .


#166
Lotion Soronarr

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Swampthing500 wrote...
There is a substantial difference between finding technology that will make the Reapers vulnerable to conventional weapons or will weaken them in some way, versus an automatic "You win, now decide what to do button".

The idea of locating technology that would expose the Reapers to defeat by conventional means would be more satisfying because then the entire galaxy is taking an equal part in killing them, rather than just Shepard playing the magical savior.


Also, it is a poorly executes and though of DEM...or Ass Pull.. doesn't really matters how oyu call it.

A solution out of nowhere that pops up EXACTLY when you need it.
You didn't hear about it or done anything related to it prior to reapers arriving and buttf****** everyone. So jsut after Shep leaves Earth, jsut when they need it and have no clue - *BAM* - here's your magical plot device.

And no, some news snippet about some scientists doing excavations is NOT forshadowing. It's not a proper setup when it's so subtle it's indestinguishible from other news and things. It's background noise.

#167
Lotion Soronarr

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Random citizen wrote...
Vigil states that Soverign would not survived the united forces of every spieces. Thats not what happened at the citadel though. But we dont know what would have happened to soverign if Sarens husk would not have been destroyed and the Reaper got BSoD. What we do know is that if Soverign would not had been busy trying to open the citadel relay, it had probably been much better at surviving and dealing death.


We do actually. Via Twitter.

Sovereign would have done a LOT more damage. EVENTUALLY, he would be stopped, but not before taking a heavy toll on the galaxy.
Sovereign CAN take on a fleet and win. Dont' forget he was immobile during the battle of the citadel and didn't even fire all of it's weapons.

#168
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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Random citizen wrote...
Vigil states that Soverign would not survived the united forces of every spieces. Thats not what happened at the citadel though. But we dont know what would have happened to soverign if Sarens husk would not have been destroyed and the Reaper got BSoD. What we do know is that if Soverign would not had been busy trying to open the citadel relay, it had probably been much better at surviving and dealing death.


We do actually. Via Twitter.

Sovereign would have done a LOT more damage. EVENTUALLY, he would be stopped, but not before taking a heavy toll on the galaxy.
Sovereign CAN take on a fleet and win. Dont' forget he was immobile during the battle of the citadel and didn't even fire all of it's weapons.


As expected. Its also the reason why I think a small army of reapers should be unstoppable without an unified galaxy assisted by the Geth and their mega structure.

#169
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Dean_the_Young wrote...

I have particular views on Humanity, and I can always thank the Bioware forums for validating them.

Carry on, you champions of... whatever you think you champion.


I have heard that humans are the most diverse race of sapent beings in the galaxy...
:whistle:

#170
RyuujinZERO

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Random citizen wrote...
Somehow I doubt the reapers conform to human notions of mental health. ;)


That's what I would've thought before I started reading video game forums... the convulted logic people go through to try justify commiting heinous acts in a game to get something as simple as a unique weapon and still claim their character is "good" is amazing.

The idea of pulping an entire species into a screaming goo suddenly seems like the sort've thing people might consider a good idea, if it meant they got a pimping squid-dreadnaught out of it.

#171
Lotion Soronarr

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Who ever said anything about turning people into goo and making a squid DN?

And even assuming you are right - if that pimping squid DN is the only thing that can save the galaxy, was it truly evil?

#172
ODST 5723

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Considering that good and evil are subjective and highly based on perception and signicant sociological and cultural norms... it could be.