85 réponses à ce sujet

[OdanUrr]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

The problem I had with the civil war storyline in Skyrim was the fact that neither side made a real good case on why I should support them. Sure there was General Tullis' and Stormcloak's speeches in their respective castles, but I never had a real understanding of the difference between each side other than that the Stormcloaks and a good portion of the Imperials don't like the banning of the worship of Talos . It seems that both sides hate the treaty with the Dominion.

 At least in DA2 the mages and templars each side made their cases on why should I support them or not.   

It's funny because my thoughts are the exact reverse of yours. Let me explain.

First, I agree that the Civil War storyline in Skyrim was weak and it needed to be explored further. What I mean by this is that there should have been more quests regarding this conflict: large-scale battles, assassinations, intrigue, etc. The PC should have been able to rise through the ranks of the Legion or the Stormcloaks and maybe thus influence policy. There's at least one ocassion where it is suggested that joining the Legion and rising through the ranks might offer a peaceful solution to a certain prisoner dilemma. Needless to say, that is not the case.

However, I had no problem understanding the motivations of the Legion/Empire and the Stormcloaks. I see the Talos incident as merely an excuse for the Nords (some, as usual) to try and break free from the Empire's grasp. Ulfric's motives are less than noble, he doesn't want to simply free the Nords (some of which probably don't want freeing) for freedom's sake, but also wants to be High King himself. He won't allow for a more worthy candidate and is prepared to eliminate all who oppose him, whether they in turn support the Empire or not.

On the other hand, the Empire worries about the Dominion. Civil strife would be a unique opportunity for the Thalmor to attack, or at least covertly support the Stormcloaks in order to debilitate the Empire first, and then attack. Ulfric's mind is not on the Thalmor problem and dismisses them as a later concern. For the Empire, later can become now. The Talos ban was a form of appeasement to keep the Dominion happy. Perhaps it would be nice to learn whether the Empire has some plan to free itself from the Dominion's grasp, but no man, not even the Dragonborn (or perhaps especially the Dragonborn, considering the political implications of his persona, which the game doesn't really do justice to), can be privy to the musings of both Ulfric and Tullius.

What Skyrim might do is leave some room for interpretation. There's nothing wrong with that, we're smart people, we can figure it out. DA2, on the other hand, beats you over the head with the Mages vs. Templars issue. The Templars' point of view is simple: magic is evil, mages can manipulate magic, ergo mages are evil. Indeed, DA2 goes out of its way to depict all mages as deranged and borderline psychotic, which should have strengthened the Templars' case. Instead, it only served to ridicule the issue. On the other hand, the Mages' point of view is this: a person's freedom should not be limited because of their origin, in this case, because they can manipulate magic. It is a far more sensible point of view than that of the Templars' and even DA2 itself shows that some Templars tend to agree, while others stay true to their fanaticism. I don't think I need to give examples here.

Both Skyrim and DA2 make their cases on why you should support either side, be it Mages vs. Templars or Empire vs. Stormcloaks. It's simply that Skyrim tends to be neutral about it while DA2 leans heavily on the Templar side (name all the mages in DA2 who are good and stay good throughout the game... and who aren't drunkards XD).

Remember, we're smart people. Depict each side fairly, with arguments and counter-arguments for both parties, and let the player balance those arguments against his or her own moral compass. If this is done properly, the player should have to ponder the matter carefully before leaning for one side of the other, if he chooses either side at all. Like Asimov said, "Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right."

Smart man.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 27 décembre 2011 - 12:56 .

[Yrkoon]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think every single response to the OP's post did not even read what he said.

He didn't say there was no racial tension in Skyrim. That's obvious.

He said that REGARDLESS OF WHICH RACE HE CHOSE no one treated him different. Sure, Khajit are viewed as thieves, and Argonians as little more than servants, and Bosmer as untrustworthy, and Dunmer as second class, and Altmer as evil... but regardless of which race YOU chose, the game doesn't react differently. As a person who has played over 100 hours as an Argonian and Khajit, while the world treats the different races differently, everyone treats YOU the same, aside from the occassional guard comment, as the OP said.

Geez people, read before over reacting.

And what point exactly is he trying to make by arguing such a thing?  That  UNLIKE Skyrim, where you're treated the same regardless of your race,  DA2 treats you differently depending on your race?

No wait.  That can't be the point, since you can only be one race (Human) in DA2.

And he's wrong anyway.  Play an Orc in Skyrim, and  watch how *whole*  Orc villages welcome you into their gates as family right off the bat.  Then play a nord and notice how they *don't*, until you prove yourself to them.

Also, even enemies in Skyrim comment about what you are, race-wise when you're fighting them.   That doesn't happen at all in DA2  (or DA:O, or any Bioware game)

Thothistox wrote...

So, Bioware, if you're listening and you're looking towards Skyrim for a model on how to make an RPG, please do this: make DA3 as big as Skyrim, but with DAO's storytelling and writing quality.

Right.  Don't hold your breath.  It would take them 20 years to  complete such an undertaking, and with Bioware's fetish for Voice actors and cinimatics, the game would probably be 300 gigs in size and not marketable to consoles.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:26 .

[LinksOcarina]

And yet, when your an elf or a mage you can join the Stormcloaks so easily...even though they openly say you are the next group they will be driving out of skyrim. You must really hate being a High Elf Illusionist if you help the guys bragging about killing you.

Sometimes that immersion works,most of the time its pointless, or just plain broken

[The dead fish]

They said that all foreigners are welcome to help Skyrim to be free;

Magic is useful, and some nords are desperate to become independent, even if they proclaim their distaste for magic. They have also some mages in their side, stormcloak aren't stupid.

The thalmor are a faction, not a race, who have also taken action against valenwood,Wood Elves and High Elves.

It is possible to be a High Elf and to be against the thalmor. The thalmors first destroyed their enemy on their island before taking power. It is a political and religious group that has seized power, it does not mean they are approved by all the High Elves. A High Elf can totally hate Thalmors, their beliefs, and use Skyrim as a stepping stone to destroy them.  Besides, they are so powerful, it is better to consider helping a group ready to destroy them, when the empire does not act at all.

Anyways, in DAO, origins weren't really useful either, so I don't know what are you really complaining about. In DA2, ( the game suposed to focus on the story and character )

To be a mage for example, or a blood mage with hawk doesn't make sense at all in Kirkwall. Nobody sees that he is a dangerous mage. Even if he is fighting with his power. Hawk was only human and we saw that finally, it didn't bring more sense.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 décembre 2011 - 10:41 .

[LinksOcarina]

Sylvianus wrote...

They said that all foreigners are welcome to help Skyrim to be free;


Magic is useful, and some nords are desperate to become independent, even if they proclaim their distaste for magic. They have also some mages in their side, stormcloak aren't stupid.

The thalmor are a faction, not a race, who have also taken action against valenwood,Wood Elves and High Elves.

It is possible to be a High Elf and to be against the thalmor. The thalmors first destroyed their enemy on their island before taking power. It is a political and religious group that has seized power, it does not mean they are approved by all the High Elves. A High Elf can totally hate Thalmors, their beliefs, and use Skyrim as a stepping stone to destroy them. Besides, they are so powerful, it is better to consider helping a group ready to destroy them, when the empire does not act at all.

Anyways, in DAO, origins weren't really useful either, so I don't know what are you really complaining about. In DA2, ( the game suposed to focus on the story and character )

To be a mage for example, or a blood mage with hawk doesn't make sense at all in Kirkwall. Nobody sees that he is a dangerous mage. Even if he is fighting with his power. Hawk was only human and we saw that finally, it didn't bring more sense.

First off, they have to accept you to help because the storylines demand it, despite the fact it contradicts the dialouge you hear and the attitudes of several Nords all over Skyrim. Even Ulfric is a bit indifferent on it too. And yeah, using mages on the Stormcloak side is also stupid since it again, contradicts what Ulfric preaches.

I also never even mentioned the Thalmor...but since you brought that up my problem with them is that they have no true presance in Skyrim; despite the fact that the whole White-Gold Concordt they forced the Imperial Empire to sign is a significant event that happens 25 years before the game begins should demand they do have one, or at least be a lot more active in fighting the Stormcloaks, but thats me.

They are also an alliance between most Wood and High Elves. Of course you don't have to agree with them, I don't mind that. But unlike the Stormcloaks that makes sense. But since there presence is Skyrim is, at best, minimal, it has nothing to do with the Stormcloak Rebellion other than starting it by banning the worship of Talos and pissing off Ulfric enough to make a grab for a throne he doesnt deserve.

As for the Blood Mage thing, yeah I know. It's a huge oversight. Also an oversight in Dragon Age: Origins. My point though is that Skyrim is no better though. Origins had this problem too, but it worked in a better way than Skyrim ever did due to it being an Origin story: that introduced the world in a way that made things interactive and informative; a tutorial that serves a dual purpose of storyline and prologue exposition along with learning the ropes.

and to answer the question you proposed Alain, Gasgard, Merrill, Bethany, Feynriel, and Marethari. Gasgard is a bit iffy but his intentions are technically good.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 27 décembre 2011 - 11:47 .

[The dead fish]

First off, they have to accept you to help because the storylines demand it,
despite the fact it contradicts the dialouge you hear and the attitudes of several Nords all over Skyrim.
Even Ulfric is a bit indifferent on it too. And yeah, using mages on the Stormcloak side is also stupid since it again, contradicts what Ulfric preaches.

They can accept you, because you have fought with one of them. Because that stormcloak saw how you were good in action and how you could serve really their cause. You a mage. ( also several nords =/ all nords, that's only because of oblivion that some of them don't trust mages anymore )

Ulfric killed the High King Torryg, contrary to the traditions. It is the symbol that  stormcloak are ready to do everything to win. They don't like foreigners and mages, but they accept their help if they want to, because that is the only thing that counts, the victory and to win by all the means. Despite their " pride. "

Distrust does not necessarily condemn cooperation. Nationalists and Communists who have hated so much each other, worked in many countries together for the patriotic cause or against a common enemy during war. I think on the contrary it's a good show of how it is more complicate, than " I don't trust you, I don't wanna hear something about you. "

I also never even mentioned the Thalmor...but since you brought that up my problem with them is that they have no true presance in Skyrim; despite the fact that the whole White-Gold Concordt they forced the Imperial Empire to sign is a significant event that happens 25 years before the game begins  should demand they do have one, or at least be a lot more active in fighting the Stormcloaks, but thats me.

I do not follow you here. Did you read the note of the secret services of thalmors ?

Their interest is to see precisely that stormcloak fight against imperials to weaken the empire. Why they would act against the stormcloaks when they serve their interest ? Thalmors act against those who preach Talos, and actively. Several times in the game, aud during your explorations in this huge country, you see many companies of Thalmors that took prisoners ( those who preached talos ) and they lead them somewhere in their fortressses.

And they are present throughout Skyrim, you see many companies crossing the country ( some even fighting with agressive stormcloak who  attack them )  if you explore the country as well. They also have secret fortresses, An embassy. Their presence is significant enough for me, for what there are doing. So I don't really know what you mean. At the same time it does not need to be significant as the peace treaty with the empire authorizes them only to monitor their territory and control the treaty, monitoring about the prohibition to pray Talos in all the empire.. Skyrim is not a colony or territory of thalmors

Skyrim is still a territory of the empire, and that is still the Empire that is the master of its land. Its purpose is to serve peace, with the Treaty, (to avoid war) not be under the yoke of thalmors. The thalmor don't want the war, unless The Empire doesn't respect the point about Talos, so why would they invade Skyrim  with many troops ? That doesn't make sense. This leads straight to war.

They are also an alliance between most Wood and High Elves. Of course you don't have to agree with them, I don't mind that. But unlike the Stormcloaks that makes sense. But since there presence is Skyrim is, at best, minimal, it has nothing to do with the Stormcloak Rebellion other than starting it by banning the worship of Talos and pissing off Ulfric enough to make a grab for a throne he doesnt deserve.

We are talking about continent conflict, not just a war in a country in which we are. It it obvious for me that an empire without the nords, would be good for Thalmors, the Alliance between Elves.

 A High Elf or a wood elf may decide to support the rebellion to weaken the empire, AND Skyrim which is also alone. Good for thalmors. That's the motivation of my wood elf. But I see what you mean. It isn't perfect, but I don't see at this level why it would break immersion when you can find reasons to fight for a side. ( I would say, that it is just  your own feelings, it just doesn't appeal you )

Origins are always complicated, especially when there are many races, and that, you won't see many people
complaining about origins. Everybody knows that it is difficult to implement.

Otherwise, yes bioware " in general " gives a better work on their story because their focus their attention on it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 28 décembre 2011 - 03:55 .

[LinksOcarina]

The biggest problem with the Thalmor is yeah, you see them roaming, you see them at their embassy, and one guy at the college of Magic. Thats all really.

Since they are technically in control of the Empire now, then the Thalmor should be more prolific in the quest lines, not a somewhat invisible presence that becomes another faction you can fight with little consequence. I feel Bethesda missed a golden opportunity here in making them a bigger boogeyman than they claimed to be, especially considering that most of the people you talk to view them negatively.

But I don't want to get into another pointless debate over the shortcomings in Skyrim. In the end, that is Skyrim's weakness, and Elder Scrolls Weaknesses as a series.

[Sowtaaw]

i smell a dlc or a expansion to adress the thalmor  situation maybe the dragonborn will start a new generation of dragon emperors just like Tiber Septim did.

Modifié par Sowtaaw, 28 décembre 2011 - 02:12 .

[The dead fish]

LinksOcarina wrote...

The biggest problem with the Thalmor is yeah, you see them roaming, you see them at their embassy, and one guy at the college of Magic. Thats all really.

I don't know what you did expect, that doesn't seem clear at all, unless you didn't really understand the context..That's perfect for me. It isn't a war against them, and the Thalmors do not control Skyrim, that distant land rebel on the contrary.  It is a political situation that is complicated, it is mostly that, that must be understood.

Since they are technically in control of the Empire now,

No, they don't, even technically. The empire works with them for a while, that's the fact...But that doesn't mean, it let them to do all what they want, like a thalmor said,  if the Empire requires to any troop to leave the country, they obey immediately. As long as Talos is forbidden, Thalmor don't want war with the Empire.

 They spy, they act secretly ( And the empire surely do the same in Thalmor lands as well ) but that doesn't mean they control the Empire at all. The empire is sovereign in the facts and tries to save times, working secretly against his ennemy. 

I think you didn't understand the story and the context, they don't need to be the bad guys, we don't need to fight them in skyrim. The point about them is to discover the new context after Oblivion, their power, their strengh, and the new situation in the empire, related to them after oblivion 's crisis in the last game, 200 years ago.

not a somewhat invisible presence that becomes another faction you can fight with little consequence.

They aren't invisible at all, and the fight against the thalmor isn't the story of Skyrim, it is that of the universe that moves. Morrowind, oblivion, now skyrim. In skyrim, that's because of their presence, that Nords decide to fight the Empire. And what we learn from Thalmors shows how it is complicated about the true story : the fight between imperials and Nords,and why some Nords, the best friends of imperials, those who funded the First Empire want to leave their allies. It is obvious for me that the story of thalmors will be concerned in the next game or the future DLC.

I feel Bethesda missed a golden opportunity here in making them a bigger boogeyman than they claimed to be, especially considering that most of the people you talk to view them negatively.

But I don't want to get into another pointless debate over the shortcomings in Skyrim. In the end, that is Skyrim's weakness, and Elder Scrolls Weaknesses as a series.

To each his opinion, for me despite its weakness ( the story and characters ), Skyrim did a good job in this area. A good surprise. The point about the Thalmor is among its best success.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 28 décembre 2011 - 02:40 .

[jcainhaze]

I like the idea of DA3 having a much larger scope than DA2 but I'm not sure I want it to be so massive as Skyrim. It would be sweet if the main locations/cities/castles/etc were huge but I don't really need all the space in between. It wouldn't be bad to have a large immediate explorable area around the main locations. Even having some of the explorable roads is ok. I wouldn't mind just having a fast travel map like DAO. Some areas in between would be great like a hand full of large story important explorable forests, mountains, etc. I don't really wan't to explore every possible nook and cranny of a huge world. That's Bathesda's thing. Bioware should really focus more on crafting a story that's epic in scale than a world that's overly ambitions. Definitely want a bigger world again but one that's full of detail, creats an interesting environment, and tells a very good story.

[Yrkoon]

LinksOcarina wrote...
 And yeah, using mages on the Stormcloak side is also stupid since it again, contradicts what Ulfric preaches.

Refresh my memory.  What does Ulfric preach again that has to do with mages?       Doesn't he have his own Mage  as an advisor?  And isn't Winterhold a Stormcloak town?

I also never even mentioned the Thalmor...but since you brought that up my problem with them is that they have no true presance in Skyrim; despite the fact that the whole White-Gold Concordt they forced the Imperial Empire to sign is a significant event that happens 25 years before the game begins should demand they do have one, or at least be a lot more active in fighting the Stormcloaks, but thats me.

Well, I don't know what you mean by " No true presense".  They've got a gigantic Embassy in the capital.  They have occasional patrols  on the roads.  They have Ambassadors working directly with the  Jarl in  Solitude and the Arch-mage in  the  College.    That's way more than enough, I'd say.  The White-Gold Concordat doesn't  make them an occupying force, just a political  influence.

And if I was the Thalmor,  I most certainly wouldn't step in and  try to bring down the stormcloaks.  I'd be doing the opposite.  I'd be fueling the conflict, since a divided empire is in the thalmor's best interests.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 28 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .