55 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

If the PC is going to be silent, I would prefer if everyone was silent. Then you have plenty of spare resources for other stuff.

But really, I prefer a voiced protagonist. Silent worked in Skyrim because the PC isn't really a character to begin with. The Dragonborn is just an avatar for the player to screw around with. Bioware tends to use much more established PCs.

[Plaintiff]

"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred. They may genuinely feel that a silent protagonist allows them to interpret the dialogue in their own way, but this is false, because authorial intent will come through in the way other characters respond. In Origins, I repeatedly found myself being hit on by Morrigan despite never indicating an interest in her, and Leliana apparently has a tendency to automatically assume that she's in a serious relationship with anyone who compliments her on anything ever. Despite how I choose to roleplay my characters and interpret the dialogue, it's clear that the lines I was choosing were intended to indicate a romantic interest that my character did not feel.

People take it for granted that being able to create their own character from scratch is a necessary and defining part of a "role-play", and it actually isn't. There's no rule saying that a GM can't provide pre-made characters, and as much as you might not like it, it's perfectly possible  to play a role that has not been specifically tailored by and for you. Actors do it all the time.

Personally, I prefer a voiced protagonist, and I don't think there's any way to implement a silent one "creatively", short of actually making it a plot point, which would require the character to be acknowledged by other characters as mute, or deaf or both, and would require the developers to come up with a new game mechanic to represent the non-verbal communication. As I type this, it actually sound like an awesome idea, if difficult to pull off, but it would undoubtedly ****** off the users who don't particularly want to roleplay someone with a disability, which would probably consist mostly of the same people who didn't want the protagonist to have a voice in the first place.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:53 .

[hideo_sakaguchi]

I enjoyed both Warden and the Hawke greatly. I don't really have a preference of which is better though. In Origins it felt like I was the Warden whereas in DA 2 it felt like I was living as Hawke, if that makes any sense.

Having a voiced hero seems easier on the marketing side though. Hawke and Shepard made pretty kick ass poster boys honestly. I'm not that much into the 'role-playing' side as both styles are ultimately the same. If your Warden was going to be a cold-hearted bastard the experience (to me) wasn't all that different than making Hawke a hard ass in Dragon Age 2.

I do kind of hope they keep the centralized character and companion armor sets (although each should have more than one and you should be able to switch between them freely) in Dragon Age 3 though. I understand people wanting to tweak their party to perfection, but I really liked how individual everyone looked in DA 2 over Origins (for instance I felt Morrigan and Wynne looked like every other mage throughout the game after getting them out of their starting gear and Leliana looked like every other rogue).

But that's getting a bit off-topic, so I'll reel it back. Maybe they can give you an option of muting the main character. That way people who like voice actors can listen to Hawke/whoever and everyone else can pick their responses and act it out in their head.

[Jonp382]

Just offer more role-playing options without forcing the player character to say anything. Allow him/her to choose whether to assassinate a diplomat personally, or fund a political opponent, without so much as an opinionated word.

[TEWR]

There's not much I can really add. I'm not too savvy on the inner workings of RPG making, but I will say that I prefer the voiced protagonist over the silent.

It enables me to roleplay my characters more. However, I wasn't able to roleplay my Hawke the way I wanted due to things that the game did and didn't do, but that's neither here nor there.

Ultimately, I think Zanallen hit the nail on the head. A silent protagonist is fine in a silent world, but in a voiced world a voiced protagonist makes the most sense.

Also, to me the Warden was never silent. Fred Tatasciore as my Dwarf Noble Warden made the most sense to me. I can still imagine that he's my character, as the voice of the character is irrelevant to my roleplaying.

Granted, I tend to view Heaven as a "Make your own heaven" type of thing, and if I were to make Thedas a reality then I wouldn't care if I was using Fred Tatasciore's voice or Nicholas Boulton's voice to be my character in a newly created reality. I could still be my character, even if I couldn't sound like myself.

And while it may seem strange that I consider making a Thedosian reality -- trust me, I see it as strange too -- I'm just using it as an example of why I really like the voiced protagonist.

That and I feel the "make your own Heaven" thing that What Dreams May Come did -- which is where I got the idea -- makes the most sense on what the afterlife is.

EDIT: Though I highly doubt I would make a world like that, because that would mean subjecting a newly created reality to the Darkspawn. That would just be very... dick-like to do.

But Pokemon would be a reality I'd be comfortable making when I die!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 décembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Why, after 30 years of non-voiced protagonists in RPG video gaming is a voice protagonist all of a sudden required? If I named off my top ten RPGs of all time, NONE of them would have a voiced main character. The only one that would come close is maybe FFX, but I don't feel that is in my top ten.

While it doesn't HURT roleplaying to have a voice PC, I can imagine it could be extremely hard to make changes on the fly to the story, dialogue or plot. For instance, if in DAO, they wanted to add a conversation piece about Sten liking cookies, it would have been a just adding some lines to a VA. If they wanted to add a similar conversation in DA2 about Varric liking ice cream, it would require Varric's VA to record the part, but it would also require the Hawke VA to record the lines, but in three different tones (diplomatic, aggressive and sarcastic).. So you are talking about possibly doubling, tripling or even quadrupling (depending on how long it would take Hawke to record the various other lines three times) the VA budget for the scene to make a minor edit.

Now, if this was something substantial, such as making Meredith and Orsino more fleshed out and realistic in some of their interactions, you aren't just talking about Orsino and Meredith's VA's coming in, but Hawke's as well. Essentially doubling the cost  of the scene for every change or edit. Which puts the writing team in a bit of a bind. If an interaction looks good on paper, but then when its implemented in game, some glaring problems show up and you have to either A) chuck a segment of already-paid-for VA and spend double or more what it would have cost to make an edit previously or leave it and hope no one notices, then what do you think a game that is already over-budget would say?

Games have been able to do voiced protagonists for over a decade. The reason most don't is that it is prohibitively expensive except in the most linear of story telling. And I would sacrifice a voiced PC over non-linear, branching story telling any day of the week.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 25 décembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[Zanallen]

@ Fast Jimmy

My top five favorite RPGs also lack a voiced protagonist. However, they also lack voice for every character. A voiced PC isn't necessary, but I do enjoy the consistency of having a voiced PC if every other character is going to be voiced. Hell, if a random worthless NPC has a voice, I want the hero of the game to have a voice as well.

[CuriousArtemis]

If DA3 has an unvoiced protagonist, I won't buy it. But the point is moot because they said the protagonist would definitely be voiced.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
So you are talking about possibly doubling, tripling or even quadrupling (depending on how long it would take Hawke to record the various other lines three times) the VA budget for the scene to make a minor edit.

I don't know that this necessarily follows. I don't know how most voice actors operate, but there are a lot of of possibilites for payment. The studio may well negotiate a fixed commission beforehand.  Mo' lines doesn't necessarily equate to mo' money.

Voice acting may not be essential to RPGs, or any videogames at all. But if you started cutting things out on the basis of them not being "required", you wouldn't have much of a game left.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 décembre 2011 - 02:12 .

[Ponendus]

This subject is a strange one, as it really is dependant on the individual's way of roleplaying. Myself, I prefer a silent protagonist that I can lend my own voice to (not literally, it's just easier to imagine the character is 'me' and to speak the line in my head) and voiced NPC's. In real life, my voice is my own and everyone else has their own, I like my games to be no different where possible as I am all about the 'immersion' as a gamer.

Ideally for me the next installment would have a 'toggle' (I know, everytime a fan asks for a toggle a developer loses their wings... sorry about that) so we can choose a voice or non-voiced protagonist. Failing that, I at least would very much like to know the full line my character is about to say rather than an abbreviation - this is essential in my way of roleplaying. DA2 wen't from a roleplaying game to closer to an interactive film for me simply because of this.

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't know that this necessarily follows. I don't know how most voice actors operate, but there are a lot of of possibilites for payment. The studio may well negotiate a fixed commission beforehand.  Mo' lines doesn't necessarily equate to mo' money.

Voice acting may not be essential to RPGs, or any videogames at all. But if you started cutting things out on the basis of them not being "required", you wouldn't have much of a game left.

While I will admit that I am definitely not familiar with the in's and out's of VA work, even if they had a contract setup similar to what you describe, they would still need a sound technician(s?), studio time rent (if its an outside studio) or studio time booked (which may involve wrestling with other Bioware projects for sound time, such as ME or TOR) and animation changes that would better match the new words spoken. While there may not be a direct 1:1 correlation between mo' lines and mo' money for the VA, I can't imagine that this whole production comes as cheap as editting text in the conversation box.

And I agree that cutting features is a slippery slope... but adding features can't magically happen, either. Especially expensive features. So by adding a voiced PC to the game, is Bioware being forced to cut corners elsewhere, with say, dungeon design? Companion armor options? Branching story lines? Face rendering software to make the conversion from DAO to DA2 better?

I can't say for sure. But DAO cost $60 when it came out, with no voiced PC. DA2 cost $60 when it came out just 18 months later, WITH a voiced PC. So unless the cost of voiced acting in video games dropped signifcantly, Bioware would, in my mind, have to make a cut somewhere else to pay for the feature.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:22 .

[staindgrey]

Each has its appeal. With a silent PC, more emphasis is put on the character with whom you're speaking, and with a talking PC, the emphasis is shared. To me, it's not a matter of me "being in the game", so to speak. I see that thrown around a lot when describing Bethesda styles or DA:O's Warden. I still feel as though Hawke, The Witcher and Shepard are "me", just as I feel, in that moment, that Samus Aran is "me" or Link is "me". The voice or lack thereof isn't a factor in that regard.

But it's easy to tell that DA:O's characters got a bigger spotlight due to the Warden's silence. VA's didn't have to worry about responding to a certain tone or delivery; they responded to written dialogue, and thus had more freedom in their character. They had more lines, which paved the way for more characterization and simple lines (think of Sten's curt lines, or Morrigan's) that would just feel out of place with a dialogue wheel. It also provided greater variables because dialogue was less limited by what the PC said, because our expectations are different when reading words (using our imagination) compared to hearing them (digesting pre-made information).

All that being said, I'm far more attached to my Hawke than I am my Warden. Hawke had a personality that came out in my decisions. One's a smartass with a quick wit and a stupid smirk, one's a cold-hearted individual who cares but has the hardest time showing it, and one is simply a boyscout who thinks he can save the world. The comedic moments of my sarcastic Hawke are more memorable to me than any funny moments in DA:O, and the heated confrontations with my ruthless Hawke were the same. The rivalries I had with Fenris and Carver felt so much more "real" than my Warden's with Alistair and Sten. Maybe it's just me, but having an actual voice on the other side of the conversation makes a world of difference in the delivery.

Each style has its flaws and strengths. I will say now that I'm very glad SWTOR has VAs, as both my smuggler and inquisitor have distinct personalities to which I'm becoming quickly attached. If I had to pick one for DAIII, I'd go with voiced, but I wouldn't be turned away from the game by a silent PC either.

To each his own.

[alex90c]

Plaintiff wrote...

"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred.

lol.

[nightscrawl]

Zanallen wrote...

If the PC is going to be silent, I would prefer if everyone was silent. Then you have plenty of spare resources for other stuff.

But really, I prefer a voiced protagonist. Silent worked in Skyrim because the PC isn't really a character to begin with. The Dragonborn is just an avatar for the player to screw around with. Bioware tends to use much more established PCs.

Well here is one thing about that... it can get tedious reading a lot of dialogue after a time. I am the type of person who wants to know all of the lore and also make my role-play decisions based on conversations with NPCs. I recently installed Neverwinter Nights to play it again after many years, in that game only less than a handful of the main NPCs you interact with are fully voiced (Aribeth and Aarin Gend are the only ones I can recall now). It does get tedious reading all of that material after a while. Also, it eventually feels like it's a reading game, rather than a game, sprinkled with bouts of combat. One clear benefit of the voiced NPC as in Origins is that you feel a stronger sense of interaction with the NPC.

There were a few NWN modules (fan made) that had full voice acting, and the difference from the main campaign was remarkable. I felt more sympathy with those NPCs, as well as a greater sense of them actually talking to me, rather than my just passively reading dialogue.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't know that this necessarily follows. I don't know how most voice actors operate, but there are a lot of of possibilites for payment. The studio may well negotiate a fixed commission beforehand.  Mo' lines doesn't necessarily equate to mo' money.

Voice acting may not be essential to RPGs, or any videogames at all. But if you started cutting things out on the basis of them not being "required", you wouldn't have much of a game left.

While I will admit that I am definitely not familiar with the in's and out's of VA work, even if they had a contract setup similar to what you describe, they would still need a sound technician(s?), studio time rent (if its an outside studio) or studio time booked (which may involve wrestling with other Bioware projects for sound time, such as ME or TOR) and animation changes that would better match the new words spoken. While there may not be a direct 1:1 correlation between mo' lines and mo' money for the VA, I can't imagine that this whole production comes as cheap as editting text in the conversation box.

And I agree that cutting features is a slippery slope... but adding features can't magically happen, either. Especially expensive features. So by adding a voiced PC to the game, is Bioware being forced to cut corners elsewhere, with say, dungeon design? Companion armor options? Branching story lines? Face rendering software to make the conversion from DAO to DA2 better?

I can't say for sure. But DAO cost $60 when it came out, with no voiced PC. DA2 cost $60 when it came out just 18 months later, WITH a voiced PC. So unless the cost of voiced acting in video games dropped signifcantly, Bioware would, in my mind, have to make a cut somewhere else to pay for the feature.

I guess that depends on whether or not cost is a reliable indicator of game quality or budget to begin with? Where I am (Australia), video games are prohibitively expensive either way, with new releases costing up to and sometimes over a hundred dollars, and sticker price is rarely a good indicator of quality. Two of the most expensive games I ever bought; Enchanted Arms and Star Ocean: The Last Hope, were deeply, deeply disappointing (some people might say that they suck by virtue of being JRPGs, but I actually like JRPGs generally, and Star Ocean is from Square Enix, who I had a pretty good track record with previously).

Without more details, I guess it's hard to say. Other forum users cite the short development cycle as the excuse for cutting corners in some areas, or maybe Bioware just thought people wouldn't notice (I actually didn't until someone pointed it out to me).

[Plaintiff]

alex90c wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred.

lol.

Gosh, what a powerful argument. You have swayed me.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred.

Clearly you haven't put much thought behind it then.

Silent protaganists allow for more dialogue options/freedom. With a voiced protaganist you're limited to what has been voiced, with silent you can have many more flavour options that, although have the same reaction, allow you to further personalize how your PC reacts to something. Then there's the fact that you can decide yourself how PC voiced the line of dialogue, did he shout, mutter, say it sarcasticly, it's up to you.
Then there's the freedom to decide what your PC sounds like. I wanted my Hawke to be a gruff voiced stoic, as soon as he spoke that image was ruined and my roleplaying opportunities were lessened.

Ultimately it comes down to, do you want more roleplaying freedom, or do you want a more cinematic game with a more defined protaganist?

Modifié par GodWood, 26 décembre 2011 - 09:59 .

[bleetman]

I'm not really sure that folk wanting completely silent characters and complete flexibility to create their own characters are barking up the right tree. Bioware have been all about (relatively) pre-defined main characters and interactive driven narratives for... what, around decade now? Your character is never of your creation, they all have various unyielding attributes you can't ever change. Which isn't to say you can't roleplay them, obviously, but any backstory/personality/so on and so forth the player conjures up is going to have to work around whatever the game establishes about them. Main characters being silent isn't going to change much when the games are fairly rigid down to their very core.

I'd probably make some other point about one of Bioware's biggest strengths being character to character interaction, and having one or more of those being fully voiced contributes to that, but it's still technically morning and my brain refuses to work. Derp.

Modifié par bleetman, 26 décembre 2011 - 10:31 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred.

lol.

Gosh, what a powerful argument. You have swayed me.

Nothing will ever sway you from your opinion. A well thought out argument has as much effect on you as "lol".

On-topic: Anyway, Bioware will never bring back a silent protag. They have taken the cinematic route with Dragon Age, and that's just how it is. If you want your silent protag fix with as much creative freedom as you desire, look for other game companies. Many RPG's in the future will deliver a silent protag, just not from Bioware. Only thing we can hope for is the next Dragon Age to feature the actual ability to roleplay.

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred.

lol.

Gosh, what a powerful argument. You have swayed me.

Nothing will ever sway you from your opinion. A well thought out argument has as much effect on you as "lol".

And you'd know, having provided so many?

All I see is people focussing solely an opening statement and going "NO UR WRONG BECUZ I SAY SO". They don't actually even attempt to refute my supporting points, and never cite any examples to bolster their own argument.

But it's pretty obvious that in your world, an argument earns the distinction of being "well thought out" by lining up with your preconceived ideas.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 décembre 2011 - 11:47 .

[alex90c]

Plaintiff wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred.

lol.

Gosh, what a powerful argument. You have swayed me.

Seeing you go crazy like this is hilarious when you just called a bunch of people "over-sensitive".

[Ponendus]

I don't think anyone needs to be 'over-sensitive' to have their own playstyle preference. The 'best way to roleplay' will always be subjective, it is a matter of opinion and a bit pointless to argue about. At best it is worth discussing to learn other ways to roleplay from other players, but presenting an 'argument' or 'convincing reason' as you suggest Plaintiff is thoroughly futile.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Role-playing" is a pretty broad gaming genre, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason why a voiced PC would harm roleplaying characteristics. I think it's just an excuse made up by over-sensitive, self-entitled individuals who feel that their "head-canon" is sacred.

lol.

Gosh, what a powerful argument. You have swayed me.

Nothing will ever sway you from your opinion. A well thought out argument has as much effect on you as "lol".

And you'd know, having provided so many?

All I see is people focussing solely an opening statement and going "NO UR WRONG BECUZ I SAY SO". They don't actually even attempt to refute my supporting points, and never cite any examples to bolster their own argument.

But it's pretty obvious that in your world, an argument earns the distinction of being "well thought out" by lining up with your preconceived ideas.

So many have provided answers for why they believe a silent PC is superior. You do understand why people prefer a silent protagonist, but your own preference corrupts your ability to give credit to these justifications.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 26 décembre 2011 - 01:34 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Back on to the OP topic of how to improve vocing the PC...


...I will keep iterating and re-iterating until the day I die my concept of having a semi-voiced PC. For all conversation options where a dialogue choice is required, do a full text, non-voiced response. Then, if a response is needed that would not require a choice, like saying "Go on", "I'm listening", "What now?" or "that tree is really far away", then a voiced PC could be used, as well as during cinematics.

This would cut down on the number of lines the PC VA would need to record and could cut down the VA budget and give more flexibility to the story team, but also give the character a voice and give them a way to respond in cinematic scenes, so they don't just look like a robo-tronic battle bot.

Plantiff says...

I guess that depends on whether or not cost is a reliable indicator of game quality or budget to begin with? Where I am (Australia), video games are prohibitively expensive either way, with new releases costing up to and sometimes over a hundred dollars, and sticker price is rarely a good indicator of quality. Two of the most expensive games I ever bought; Enchanted Arms and Star Ocean: The Last Hope, were deeply, deeply disappointing (some people might say that they suck by virtue of being JRPGs, but I actually like JRPGs generally, and Star Ocean is from Square Enix, who I had a pretty good track record with previously).

Without more details, I guess it's hard to say. Other forum users cite the short development cycle as the excuse for cutting corners in some areas, or maybe Bioware just thought people wouldn't notice (I actually didn't until someone pointed it out to me).

The JRPG industry is on the decline, unfortunately. When I was younger, they were one of my favorite brand of games. But the majority have now just become an overly cinematic hodge-podge of cliche anime-like characters.

However, back on topic of DA2, I agree that price is never a good indicator of quality in video games, but if after reading the responses and consumer demand of what people want to see out of DA3, the Bioware team came out and said "Okay, we know everyone wants menu items A,B,C, not D, and W... your total for these things come to $70 per game." then I think people would be willing to pay for it, if we were guaranteed all the things fans want from the series.

Instead of Bioware feeling like they have to either do a time crunch to get all the features in under budget, or have to cut various features or reuse other resources due to a lack of zots, then I think it would be better for us as the fans to come out and say "We'll buy the game for more than you previously charged, but just make sure its worth the extra money."

Just a thought, I guess.