125 réponses à ce sujet

[JohnnyTheWolf]

They could have done it with Miranda, though: until the very end, she is depicted as extremely loyal to TIM, and it doesn't seem as if she's going to be a major character in ME3.

But then again I could be wrong...

Modifié par JohnnyTheWolf, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:58 .

[SnakeStrike8]

JohnnyTheWolf wrote...

They could have done it with Miranda, though: until the very end, she is depicted as extremely loyal to TIM, and it doesn't seem as if she's going to be a major character in ME3.

But then again I could be wrong...

We could all be wrong, mate.
Still, let's see what ME 3 beings. You might even get your wish: Leng may turn out to be a joiner who stands for everything Cerberus ought to be: Devoted to humanity and the progression of it. Maybe his 'quest' will involve you defeating Cerberus and installing him as the new Illusive Man so Cerberus can follow you against the Reapers- and when the war ends, it's stay as renegade as it always was!

[JohnnyTheWolf]

I don't think Kai Leng will be a recruitable squadmate... at least, nothing so far seems to suggest it. But then again, I wasn't there when BioWare started teasing Mass Effect 2. How did they handle Legion back then? Did they let the fans know there would be a recruitable Geth teammate prior to release, or did they keep that fact hidden until the end?

Modifié par JohnnyTheWolf, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[1136342t54_]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Thane took out an Asari commando merc and other well trained Eclipse mercs in hand to hand not even giving them a chance to shoot. He also walked into a shadow and disappeared from the enemy's sight. A second later he dropped down behind him and broke his neck. Thane also made another magic disappearing act at some point in ME2. Also Thane has a perfect memory allowing him to learn from every single mistake he has made and even memorize many skills easily.

1. Thane is an assassin. He's be a pretty terrible assassin if he got caught. His perfect memory also plays into this.

2. You can chalk that disappearing act up to just trying to be "Cool". At least that's how I see it.

3. His perfect memory is a trait to his entire species, not just him.

Whats your point? He is a well trained Assassin who is equal to or possibly better than Kai Leng. I don't see where your getting at. Also the perfect memory is a added trait that helps him be a even better Assassin.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 26 décembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Labrev]

Arcian wrote...

Words that the BSN have no idea what they mean:

Mary Sue.
Deus Ex Machina.
Plot Hole.
Retcon.
Consequence.
Morality.
Opinion.
Fact.
Right.
Wrong.
Limits.
Budget.
Deadline.
Constraints.
Crunchtime.
Separate.
Studio.
Multiplayer.
Cooperation.
Competative.
Xenophobe.
Racist.
Whiner.
Boring.
Ugly.
Inconsistent.
Sexist.
Fanservice.
Butch.
Strong (context: women).
Feminine.
Bimbo.

I could go on all night.

HYR likes this.

[CARL_DF90]

I just want to kill Kai Leng, ASAP. His actions in Retribution pi**ed ne off to no end. One action in particular which I will not spoil for those who have read it yet.

[BatmanPWNS]

Arcian wrote...

Words that the BSN have no idea what they mean:

Mary Sue.
Deus Ex Machina.
Plot Hole.
Retcon.
Consequence.
Morality.
Opinion.
Fact.
Right.
Wrong.
Limits.
Budget.
Deadline.
Constraints.
Crunchtime.
Separate.
Studio.
Multiplayer.
Cooperation.
Competative.
Xenophobe.
Racist.
Whiner.
Boring.
Ugly.
Inconsistent.
Sexist.
Fanservice.
Butch.
Strong (context: women).
Feminine.
Bimbo.

I could go on all night.

I am Commander Shepard and this is my favourite post on BSN.

[Someone With Mass]

Arcian wrote...

Words that the BSN have no idea what they mean:

Mary Sue.
Deus Ex Machina.
Plot Hole.
Retcon.
Consequence.
Morality.
Opinion.
Fact.
Right.
Wrong.
Limits.
Budget.
Deadline.
Constraints.
Crunchtime.
Separate.
Studio.
Multiplayer.
Cooperation.
Competative.
Xenophobe.
Racist.
Whiner.
Boring.
Ugly.
Inconsistent.
Sexist.
Fanservice.
Butch.
Strong (context: women).
Feminine.
Bimbo.

I could go on all night.

Too true.

[CC-Tron]

JohnnyTheWolf wrote...

Miranda drops her Ice Queen attitude as soon as we leave Lazarus Station, so her role ends up sort of redundant with Jacob as a Paragon Cerberus operative. Therefore, Jacob could have easily been rewritten into a more Renegade character such as Kai Leng. I mean, why not? Both Jacob and Kai Leng served in the Alliance, and ME2 already features plenty of badasses such as a century-old Justicar, an unstoppable biotic freak, a pure Krogan and even a wannabe Spectre as potential squadmates. Kai Leng would have fitted in just fine, I think.

By the way, make no mistake: I'm perfectly fine with ME2 as it is. I'm just wondering about the possibilities, that's all.

I think they should have kept Miranda as a cold person. She had no good reason to turn on TIM given how strong her belief and loyalty in Cerberus was. Shep helps her rescue her sister and she loses all her loyalty to Cerberus? It should have came down to choosing to keep the base or kill Miranda.

The game didn't need 2 Jacobs. Paragon Jacob is fine as he is. It's Miranda who should not have switched over
to Paragon as abruptly as she did (maybe by the end of ME3 would've been better).

Modifié par CC-Tron, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The main thing I don't like about Kai Leng as a character is that he really isn't an effective foil to Shepard. He is, at best, an equal in combat... except that Shepard also has two teammates. Kai Leng would just be a Human Vasir, or Saren.

What Shepard needs/needed as a rival was a rival leader. Someone with his or her own squad, which as a squad could thwart Shepard's own. After all, it's not just Shepard on his or her own that gives Shepard strength: it's the teammates as well.

By the nature of a action-shooter game, the player (Shepard) is always going to win the fights, except in scripted to lose circumstances (like Arrival). Combat-equal rivals just mean harder boss fights, but the fight outcome itself is set. You will win, unless you are scripted to lose.

If the player is always going to be the better combatant in practice, it's not a meaningful rivalry.

A rival who is a leader/planner, who can lose the firefight but still win the battle, that's a better rival character. Their strength comes from writing how they manipulate events, not combat prowess: they never need to overcome the player in fixed combat to seem like a threat.

[Someone With Mass]

Well, there will be moments when Shepard is all by himself. I'd guess Kai Leng jumps him then.

[Bleachrude]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The main thing I don't like about Kai Leng as a character is that he really isn't an effective foil to Shepard. He is, at best, an equal in combat... except that Shepard also has two teammates. Kai Leng would just be a Human Vasir, or Saren.

What Shepard needs/needed as a rival was a rival leader. Someone with his or her own squad, which as a squad could thwart Shepard's own. After all, it's not just Shepard on his or her own that gives Shepard strength: it's the teammates as well.

By the nature of a action-shooter game, the player (Shepard) is always going to win the fights, except in scripted to lose circumstances (like Arrival). Combat-equal rivals just mean harder boss fights, but the fight outcome itself is set. You will win, unless you are scripted to lose.

If the player is always going to be the better combatant in practice, it's not a meaningful rivalry.

A rival who is a leader/planner, who can lose the firefight but still win the battle, that's a better rival character. Their strength comes from writing how they manipulate events, not combat prowess: they never need to overcome the player in fixed combat to seem like a threat.

This is true.

One of the hardest fights on Nightmare is the mirror match you face in DA:O during the Sacred ashes of Andraste quest..

That took some reloading on my part and serious thinking to get through...

Given that your companions are nowhere near as powerful as Shep, I'd e happy with 2 on 3. Combine say Tela Vasir (now that was a fun fight) with Kai Leng and now we're talking..

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Well, there will be moments when Shepard is all by himself. I'd guess Kai Leng jumps him then.

Ah, but Shepard still wins. Combat exploits the player can use, staggering effects, etc.

[AgitatedLemon]

CC-Tron wrote...

JohnnyTheWolf wrote...

Miranda drops her Ice Queen attitude as soon as we leave Lazarus Station, so her role ends up sort of redundant with Jacob as a Paragon Cerberus operative. Therefore, Jacob could have easily been rewritten into a more Renegade character such as Kai Leng. I mean, why not? Both Jacob and Kai Leng served in the Alliance, and ME2 already features plenty of badasses such as a century-old Justicar, an unstoppable biotic freak, a pure Krogan and even a wannabe Spectre as potential squadmates. Kai Leng would have fitted in just fine, I think.

By the way, make no mistake: I'm perfectly fine with ME2 as it is. I'm just wondering about the possibilities, that's all.

I think they should have kept Miranda as a cold person. She had no good reason to turn on TIM given how strong her belief and loyalty in Cerberus was. Shep helps her rescue her sister and she loses all her loyalty to Cerberus? It should have came down to choosing to keep the base or kill Miranda.

The game didn't need 2 Jacobs. Paragon Jacob is fine as he is. It's Miranda who should not have switched over
to Paragon as abruptly as she did (maybe by the end of ME3 would've been better).

Or you could just not interact with Miranda at all. She's still the same old Ice Queen. 

At least with her it's over the course of the game (Not just after her loyalty mission, don't exaggerate), instead of almost immediately with Jacob.

Last thing, the Paragon switch was mostly enacted as quick as it did because of the romance and the continuation into ME3.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Bleachrude wrote...

This is true.

One of the hardest fights on Nightmare is the mirror match you face in DA:O during the Sacred ashes of Andraste quest..

That took some reloading on my part and serious thinking to get through...

Given that your companions are nowhere near as powerful as Shep, I'd e happy with 2 on 3. Combine say Tela Vasir (now that was a fun fight) with Kai Leng and now we're talking..

But you'll still win every fight, since fight-deaths are non-canonical except in failure-is-scripted sequences like Arrival.

Shepard will (after enough times) win every fight he or she isn't scripted to lose, simply because of game play agency. Being a tough fight doesn't change that: Praetorians are tough, but hardly rivals of Shepard's caliber.

Rivals need to be more than capable of fighting. They need other skills as well, to establish them as a credible equivalent. Shepard's non-combat skills are supposed to be leadership, but Kai Leng is a lone wolf at this point.

[Bleachrude]

Really? Shepard's leadership skills _ARE_ also game agency if you think about it..Unlike say DA:O, there's no approval system for your teammates (and even there, in DA, you could have the maximum min penalty and still succeed)...

You can do the SM with I think a minimum of 2 LM under your belt and still have no deaths so it's not like the game absolutely requires team leader skills (which in of itself is a nebulous concept...)

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Could the Illusive Man be considered as Shepard's rival in terms of leadership? Because, aside from Miranda's contrived defection, he is portrayed as an exceptional tactician as well as a charismatic leader.

Modifié par JohnnyTheWolf, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Bleachrude wrote...

Really? Shepard's leadership skills _ARE_ also game agency if you think about it..Unlike say DA:O, there's no approval system for your teammates (and even there, in DA, you could have the maximum min penalty and still succeed)...

Game play agency.

Literally everything in the game is game agency. That isn't what we're referring to. We're referring to the aspects of what it means to play a game like this, ie except in scripted-to-lose situations, Shepard winning the fights is a prerequisite to continuing the story.

[Dean_the_Young]

JohnnyTheWolf wrote...

Could the Illusive Man be considered as Shepard's rival in terms of leadership? Because, aside from Miranda's contrived defection, he is portrayed as an exceptional tactician as well as a charismatic leader.

No. He's a strategist, certainly, and certainly a manipulator, but he's neither shown as a tactician or a personal leader. The only times we see him in the games, after all, are our conferences with him.

Rivals by and large have to be in the same or similar schools of comparison. Shepard is a leader and fighter, but the Illusive Man is an organizer and manipulator. They don't have sufficient cross-competencies.

Someone to be called Shepard's rival needs to be able to lead AND fight.

[Gunderic]

Slidell505 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

I don't know, he's sort of a mary sue. I mean he took out an entire fully armed highly, trained turian assault squad with a toothbrush wearing nothing but a tubesock.

He's more of an anti-Shepard. Shepard's opposite.

Shepard's a Mary Sue too.

I do so dislike how that term is used so liberally.

[Gunderic]

Broodriguez wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

You folks need to learn to recognize a mary sue. Kai Leng isn't one.

kai leng is a mary sue ese, who beats a squad of highly trained turians with a pocket knife?

Batman. Except replace 'turians' with 'gangsters sporting submachine guns', and replace 'pocket knife' with his fists. :happy:

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JohnnyTheWolf wrote...

Could the Illusive Man be considered as Shepard's rival in terms of leadership? Because, aside from Miranda's contrived defection, he is portrayed as an exceptional tactician as well as a charismatic leader.

No. He's a strategist, certainly, and certainly a manipulator, but he's neither shown as a tactician or a personal leader. The only times we see him in the games, after all, are our conferences with him.

Rivals by and large have to be in the same or similar schools of comparison. Shepard is a leader and fighter, but the Illusive Man is an organizer and manipulator. They don't have sufficient cross-competencies.

Someone to be called Shepard's rival needs to be able to lead AND fight.

Good point.

Technically, Miranda could have been just that: she's a strong fighter and also an exceptional tactician. Sure, the game doesn't do a very good job at showing that, but yeah...

[Bleachrude]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JohnnyTheWolf wrote...

Could the Illusive Man be considered as Shepard's rival in terms of leadership? Because, aside from Miranda's contrived defection, he is portrayed as an exceptional tactician as well as a charismatic leader.

No. He's a strategist, certainly, and certainly a manipulator, but he's neither shown as a tactician or a personal leader. The only times we see him in the games, after all, are our conferences with him.

Rivals by and large have to be in the same or similar schools of comparison. Shepard is a leader and fighter, but the Illusive Man is an organizer and manipulator. They don't have sufficient cross-competencies.

Someone to be called Shepard's rival needs to be able to lead AND fight.

I'm really trying to understand, but this makes no sense...

There is literally no way Shepard's rival can be a rival since outside of scripted combats, antagonists in video games are designed to lose...

[SpiderFan1217]

Arcian wrote...

Words that the BSN have no idea what they mean:

Mary Sue.
Deus Ex Machina.
Plot Hole.
Retcon.
Consequence.
Morality.
Opinion.
Fact.
Right.
Wrong.
Limits.
Budget.
Deadline.
Constraints.
Crunchtime.
Separate.
Studio.
Multiplayer.
Cooperation.
Competative.
Xenophobe.
Racist.
Whiner.
Boring.
Ugly.
Inconsistent.
Sexist.
Fanservice.
Butch.
Strong (context: women).
Feminine.
Bimbo.

I could go on all night.

Ominous Approves  +10