108 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamwareStudio]

You cannot compare them point for point, that is for sure. You can only come away with the experience of playing either. For some, that's positive. For others, it's negative.

I really like what I've seen thus far of Skyrim.

[Huntress]

Hmm everywere I read about skyrim they said: immerse, addictive??
I found that feeling playing DA universe and not skyrim. Tell me this: what quest in Skyrim got you immerse in the world? wich character help you to or tryed to get you immerse into that world? My answer: None.
You can walk in a open world!! but you're hero don't need anyone.... , and the world don't need you. So why even try to help them?

Skyrim world is not asking for a hero just for a cave cleanner and after that is done, not one ever recognize you as a hero, you are just one more of them, the names of the character's that people remember from that game is because of a bug and can't compleate a quest, other than that is just one more npc...very forgettable.
If you ask me for the name of my very first companion I can only tell you this.. she can carry alot of items and she clear her throat all the time. name? lol.. be serious.

Some people found da2 very short/bad, you named! still.. am sure they will remember 90% of the names from any if not all of the characters they have meet in that game, even if is lasted 1-2 minutes. And thats a good thing I say!, even if they didn't finish da2, and they meet any of this character in da3 they WILL remember.. can you say the same with skyrim?

I don't buy games to watch salmon's jumping in a river or when I go in the cave start admiring the spiders webs.. pff! Is nice BUT am not there just for that! am there to get my hands durty and save the world!

All I want from a game is to pull me in and make it hate it or love it for as long as am playing it, skyrim do not offer  this, when I look upon Skyrim is like looking to a painting in art gallery: is a "pretty" painting.. thats all and in less than a minute I'll move away from it without ever looking back.

Modifié par Huntress, 28 décembre 2011 - 03:50 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wynne didn't just object to you romancing Allistair, she pretty much objected to any romance option across the board. And her converns were quite valid, being in the middle of a struggle for survival with a small, tight knit group of people can create some strife if romance problems arise. [/quote]

That doesn't change the fact that Wynne is trying to shape The Warden based on her assumptions about what a Grey Warden should be.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

And she voiced concerns about the Chantry's involvement with mages, but honestly? I'm not a pro-Chantry/Templar sort, but NONE of the free mages we've seen are any indication that the Chantry/Tower solution isn't the best.[/quote]

People have their own opinions about the Chantry, the Order of Templars, the Circles of Magi, and the mages. I think the narrative invites people to shape their own opinions about the schism between the two sides. My Surana Warden chose the Magi boon.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

We've got Jowan, a blood mage who winds up poisoning an Arl. [/quote]

Who becomes Master Levyn, protecting refugees, if The Warden tells him to leave the dungeon.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

You've got Morrigan, who will get snooty if you actually try to help anyone and will wind up wanting to absorb an arch demon into her uterus. [/quote]

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth, and has little respect for people who can't defend themselves because she was raised in a survival of the fittest type of mindset. The Warden can challenge this, though, such as when he can persuade her to consider that she may have been raised as a Circle mage, if things were different. Morrigan can be persuaded to see it as a possibility.

And as for preserving the soul of an Old God, I don't see why you think it's bad. It would be the soul of an Old God, untainted by the darkspawn corruption. I don't see what's bad about wanting to preserve one of the last mysteries of the world when we are completely ignorant about this. My Surana Warden trusted Morrigan.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

The crazy old man in the Brecillian Forest, who tries to kill you if you don't play his crazy riddle game. [/quote]

You already addressed that the man who is insane... I don't think insane people make rational choices.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

Anders who does REALLY bad things at the end of DA2. [/quote]

People are divided on Anders' actions at the end of Dragon Age II, and its mired in the dichotomy between mages and templars. It's the result of a man who is acting in response to the Chantry controlled Circles across Thedas.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

Merril, who seems intent on repairing a corrupted artifact with blood magic and demons and makes everyone pay for her choices. [/quote]

Marethari let a demon loose through her own volition. Merrill and Hawke have to stop her. And are you seriously arguing that it's all Merrill's fault that a group of Dalish hunters try to commit cold-blooded murder? How does that argument make any sense?

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

A host of NPC bad guys/villains from both DAO and DA2 who Abominate and Blood Mage at the slightest hint of nothing. [/quote]

All but one of the mage antagonists in Dragon Age II were insane and stupid.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

A Dream Walker who can't control his powers worth squat. [/quote]

Feynriel saves the life of a woman who was about to be raped through his Dreamer abilities.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

And anyone from Tevinter, who are either slavers, blood mages or a combination of both. [/quote]

Who have their own Circle of Magi and Order of Templars.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

The only people in the entire DA franchise who had been apostates (or at least non-Circle members) and HAVEN'T done extremely horrifying things are Bethany, Ethan and Mage Hawke. So, apparently, the Hawke's are the only legitimate argument for anything outside of Templar control of mages.[/quote]

Hawke? I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here, and leave it at that.

[Agamo45]

No one ever really said that DA2 was bad because it wasn't open ended. They said it was bad because of the absurdly low level of quality that is apparent throughout the game. It's clear that the devs didn't put much effort or heart into it at all. They quickly threw the game together to meet EA's deadline and capitalize on the success of DA:O. It's a shame too, because the potential was there.

[billy the squid]

Huntress wrote...

All I want from a game is to pull me in and make it hate it or love it for as long as am playing it, skyrim do not offer  this, when I look upon Skyrim is like looking to a painting in art gallery: is a "pretty" painting.. thats all and in less than a minute I'll move away from it without ever looking back.

Really? Hate it? Playing something I hated is more likely to ensure one avoids it next time. DA2 was like food from a restaurant, somthing I remembered fondly when I had visited previously, only to be left with a bad taste in my mouth and disatisfied. Somthing to be thrown in the bin and best left forgotten unless it is to be avoided in the future.

Modifié par billy the squid, 28 décembre 2011 - 06:39 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm going to start out by saying I DESPISE answering nitpicked quoting in response to each argument. I also am Pro-Mage in my mindset, whose canon character was a mage in both DAO and DA2, who asked for the Circle boon from King Allistair, who participated in the DR, who sided with the mages in DA2 and who helped Merril try and repair the Eluvian, and practically every other mage-friendly choice the game offered.

That said, let's get this started.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Who becomes Master Levyn, protecting refugees, if The Warden tells him to leave the dungeon.

La-dee-da. That just shows people can reform, not that blood mages aren't dangerous. We've seen Templars who are just and blameless, have we seen an apostate?

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth, and has little respect for people who can't defend themselves because she was raised in a survival of the fittest type of mindset. The Warden can challenge this, though, such as when he can persuade her to consider that she may have been raised as a Circle mage, if things were different. Morrigan can be persuaded to see it as a possibility.

And as for preserving the soul of an Old God, I don't see why you think it's bad. It would be the soul of an Old God, untainted by the darkspawn corruption. I don't see what's bad about wanting to preserve one of the last mysteries of the world when we are completely ignorant about this. My Surana Warden trusted Morrigan.

None of that means that its not extremely dangerous behavior. What if Morrigan had been lied to by Flemeth, and the OGB would combine with the power of a mage and do something EVEN WORSE? Morrigan is smart, but she can't possibly comprehend the powers she was messing with, nor can she trust that everything Flemeth told or taught her was the truth.

You already addressed that the man who is insane... I don't think insane people make rational choices.

True, he was insane. Why not give us a sane apostate then?

People are divided on Anders' actions at the end of Dragon Age II, and its mired in the dichotomy between mages and templars. It's the result of a man who is acting in response to the Chantry controlled Circles across Thedas.

Whether he was right or wrong, ultimately, is debatable, you're right. But he still killed many people using magic, making him, in his own words, exactly what the Templars are afraid of and the reason why the Circle concept was presented.

Marethari let a demon loose through her own volition. Merrill and Hawke have to stop her. And are you seriously arguing that it's all Merrill's fault that a group of Dalish hunters try to commit cold-blooded murder? How does that argument make any sense?

Because people died. And they would not have died if Merril was not obsessed with forbidden knowledge. Knowledge she would not have been allowed to pursue if she was in the circle. The choices of others are of consequence, but Merril's actions still resulted in the death of others. That makes her dangerous and isn't a case for allowing mages to run about all willy nilly.

All but one of the mage antagonists in Dragon Age II were insane and stupid.

Good. I'm glad you noticed that.

Feynriel saves the life of a woman who was about to be raped through his Dreamer abilities.

Assuming he's not possessed by a demon. If he is, then he haunts the dreams of people all over Kirkwall. Again... the potential for doing good does NOT predicate the reality of the danger posed.

Who have their own Circle of Magi and Order of Templars.

And who doesn't abide by the normal Circle/Chantry strictures or guidelines.

Hawke? I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here, and leave it at that.

I don't mind if you aren't respectful, but if you disagree, I would like a bit more of an argument. Hawke doesn't do much good and is surely not the best hero around (insert the whole reactive-hero-only argument here) but as a mage, he doesn't go about hurting innocents, creating chaos and, all in all, being a destructive influence. Almost every other mage in the series does.

And that's my point. Not that mages should be locked in a tower with their Templar prison guards... far from it! I WANT the mages to be free. But for the love of all that is holy, Bioware... give us an apostate that isn't either evil incarnate or isn't messing with incredibly dangerous powers that could/do kill the people around them. I realize this is dark fantasy, but not every mage character needs to destroy everything around them in order to have an epiphany that magic can be dangerous.

[TEWR]

technically all Jowan shows the players is that bumbling, well-meaning fools can seriously mess up. Jowan doesn't show anything about blood magic being dangerous because it wasn't blood magic that caused anything in Redcliffe.

The Mage Origin however has him using it on Templars to escape, but I don't really see this as his fault. I think Uldred gave Jowan a blood magic tome with the promise that he'd "be able to pass his Harrowing" and then sold him out to further his standing amongst his peers.

If Jowan was a normal mage apostate everything still would've been the same. Eamon would be poisoned, a desire demon would've been drawn to Connor because he has access to the halls of power, and the Warden would solve everything.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 08:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

True. I'm not saying anything about the actions of Jowan, I'm just saying that Bioware should attempt to give us an apostate mage that is sane, reasonable and not inclined to do insanely risky behavior using magic.

In essence, give us a Lawful Good or Neutral Good mage who isn't manipulated into using their magic in a destructive or tragic way. You know... a normal person who just happens to be a mage.

[Andy379]

If DA 2 had actual choice through out the story I would have been happy.

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

True. I'm not saying anything about the actions of Jowan, I'm just saying that Bioware should attempt to give us an apostate mage that is sane, reasonable and not inclined to do insanely risky behavior using magic.

In essence, give us a Lawful Good or Neutral Good mage who isn't manipulated into using their magic in a destructive or tragic way. You know... a normal person who just happens to be a mage.

Well, we got Bethany, Wynne, and Irving. And for me personally Merrill falls into that group as well.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

True. I'm not saying anything about the actions of Jowan, I'm just saying that Bioware should attempt to give us an apostate mage that is sane, reasonable and not inclined to do insanely risky behavior using magic.

In essence, give us a Lawful Good or Neutral Good mage who isn't manipulated into using their magic in a destructive or tragic way. You know... a normal person who just happens to be a mage.

Well, we got Bethany, Wynne, and Irving. And for me personally Merrill falls into that group as well.

Merrill

lawful good

hahahahahahahaha

chantry say - don't do blood magic cos its evil nd stuff nd we obviously dont do it with phylacteries

"RIGHT K ILL JUST USE SOME OF MY BLOOD TO GET THRU THIS BARRIER YO"

Modifié par alex90c, 28 décembre 2011 - 09:23 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, we got Bethany, Wynne, and Irving. And for me personally Merrill falls into that group as well.

Sorry, I meant to say give us an APOSTATE mage that is Lawful/Neutral Good.

If they want to give the argument that a mage can be an Apostate and not be an incredible danger to the world, that's what they need to show - an apostate mage that is not a danger to anyone who happens to live nearby.

[TEWR]

She's neutral good, not lawful good.

The Character Alignment of sweetness and light. A Neutral Good character will usually comply with laws if doing so benefits the greater good, but rebel against those they consider unjust or which conflict with the greater good.

[jlb524]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
In essence, give us a Lawful Good or Neutral Good mage who isn't manipulated into using their magic in a destructive or tragic way. You know... a normal person who just happens to be a mage.

I don't think any mage can be 'normal' by definition.  In the DA world, they are very much not the norm.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sorry, I meant to say give us an APOSTATE mage that is Lawful/Neutral Good.

If they want to give the argument that a mage can be an Apostate and not be an incredible danger to the world, that's what they need to show - an apostate mage that is not a danger to anyone who happens to live nearby.

Bethany is an apostate (unless she joins the Cicle...but she was an apostate many years before).

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, we got Bethany, Wynne, and Irving. And for me personally Merrill falls into that group as well.

Sorry, I meant to say give us an APOSTATE mage that is Lawful/Neutral Good.

If they want to give the argument that a mage can be an Apostate and not be an incredible danger to the world, that's what they need to show - an apostate mage that is not a danger to anyone who happens to live nearby.

I still consider Merrill to be in that group because Sundermount is miles and miles away from Kirkwall and she wasn't a threat to them when she left the clan.

[Sidney]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

True. I'm not saying anything about the actions of Jowan, I'm just saying that Bioware should attempt to give us an apostate mage that is sane, reasonable and not inclined to do insanely risky behavior using magic.

In essence, give us a Lawful Good or Neutral Good mage who isn't manipulated into using their magic in a destructive or tragic way. You know... a normal person who just happens to be a mage.

There are plenty of them but why would you Mr Adventurer run into them? The guys who are not mucking things up are at home, baking cookies or something not getting slaughtered by do gooders looking to save the world. Put another way, there might be a lot of nice people wearing clown makeup in Arkham but Batman doesn't see them because thjey're not out breaking the law.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, we got Bethany, Wynne, and Irving. And for me personally Merrill falls into that group as well.

Sorry, I meant to say give us an APOSTATE mage that is Lawful/Neutral Good.

If they want to give the argument that a mage can be an Apostate and not be an incredible danger to the world, that's what they need to show - an apostate mage that is not a danger to anyone who happens to live nearby.

I still consider Merrill to be in that group because Sundermount is miles and miles away from Kirkwall and she wasn't a threat to them when she left the clan.

because mages have never negotiated and been possessed by demons and gone on a rampage after going abomination

never

not at all

not like an example is mentioned in the DA:O codex or anything

Modifié par alex90c, 28 décembre 2011 - 10:29 .

[TEWR]

She's only met with Audacity 3 times total. The first with Marethari, the second to learn blood magic, and the third when Marethari freed the thing.

She was never negotiating with him.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She's only met with Audacity 3 times total. The first with Marethari, the second to learn blood magic, and the third when Marethari freed the thing.

She was never negotiating with him.

Well, to be fair, she learned Blood Magic from it. I mean, I doubt its as easy as "See? Just ****** yourself and... bam! Instant magic!" Otherwise, any mage with a skinned knee would figure it out.

I imagine being taught blood magic from a demon involves either a long-term study period, or for the demon to magically implant the knowledge in your mind. Which, when you think about it... what else could they implant in your mind at the same time, hmmm?


But back to my point... I'm not saying all apostates are bad in DA. But they do seem to muck around in some dangerous things that ultimately wind up causing the deaths of people around them. Good intentions being the mother of all... somethings, I can't remember.

The point I was trying to make is... why haven't DA introduced an apostate, blood mage or non-circle magic user who wasn't evil, dangerous or inherently off their rocker? Aside from Bethany, who I mentioned in my first post on the subject is part of the Hawke family, who seems to be the only example in the history of Thedas.

Slight exageration there.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She's only met with Audacity 3 times total. The first with Marethari, the second to learn blood magic, and the third when Marethari freed the thing.

She was never negotiating with him.

just casually "to learn blood magic", like there's absolutely zero ramifications of that at all

though to be honest, i don't think either of us will budge on our views

i think merrill's an immature wanker and you <3 her so i don't think we'll be getting anywhere with this 

[TEWR]

Or you know, he could've just conjured up images of what the Tevinter Magisters of old did and Merrill retained that knowledge herself.

And would Morrigan count? I think she would.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She's only met with Audacity 3 times total. The first with Marethari, the second to learn blood magic, and the third when Marethari freed the thing.

She was never negotiating with him.

just casually "to learn blood magic", like there's absolutely zero ramifications of that at all

though to be honest, i don't think either of us will budge on our views

i think merrill's an immature wanker and you <3 her so i don't think we'll be getting anywhere with this 

True. I've argued the "Merrill was in the right and not dumb" topic so much lately that I think everyday I post in a thread that has it come up.

[PSUHammer]

Well this thread veered off topic...

RE: OP,
I think you did a good job of putting words to my take on each franchise. I am about 75% through my first Skyrim play-through and loving it. It's a sheer joy to play. More so than DA2 was for me. But, there are many instances where I wish Beth. could take queues from Bioware on conveying emotion, cinematics and story. Every character is bland and forgettable to me. And other story elements, like marriage, feel tacked on in an attempt to appease the Bioware crowd ("Hi, I have this amulet so let's get married. Great, now make me a sandwich!").

That being said, if Bioware would have invested even 10% of the effort in dungeon design that Skyrim has, it would have gone a long way to answering my gripes of its game play.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Or you know, he could've just conjured up images of what the Tevinter Magisters of old did and Merrill retained that knowledge herself.

And would Morrigan count? I think she would.

I actually addressed Morrigan in my original post. I did the DR with her and think she's got the right intentions... but she is extremely dangerous. As I said earlier, what if Flemeth had lied to her about the OGB and the DR and instead of purifying the unborn baby, it instead turned her into an Uber Broodmother or something? I mean, there is no way to know or test something like that. If things had not worked out as she expected, then doing magic forbidden by the Circle/Chantry would have resulted in DEVASTATING results.

Again... not saying all mages in DA are bad. But NONE of them are good and care about the good of otheres, I don't think. They all chase after power, for reasons good or bad. Bioware has only given us a view of non-Circle mages as being an insanely large liability. Even the Keepers, who are supposed to be wiser and better, are examples of this.

So let's see an apostate who doesn't chase after ancient, dangerous magic, doesn't resort to consoritng with demons, doesn't poison arls and leave unprotected demonic knowledge for kids to find... you know, someone who is responsible.

I'd be fine if we had an apostate Wynne, I guess. Not the exact character model, but someone who understood magic and who realized the dangers of forbidden arts WITHOUT having an incident that cost the lives of others before learning the hard way.

If we are to really fight for mage freedom, we have to have some view of mages who, while free of the Chantry collar, are not going to wind up getting people killed or becoming Abominations running around the countryside.

[Sidney]

Hammer6767 wrote...
That being said, if Bioware would have invested even 10% of the effort in dungeon design that Skyrim has, it would have gone a long way to answering my gripes of its game play.

Dungeon design is a place I really disagree. Massive re-use of assets (all Draugar tombs look the same, not similar the same) - now in fairness doing however many dungeons they do all of each type will look the same.  Almost all spaces are the same layout - linear hall->room-->hall-->room layout.  They camoflauge that by making things twist and turn but it is basically one long line. The "deeper" dungeons are just terrible crawls through a mass of all look same foes. The encounter design is really not good. There are too many one dude alone in a  room type fights and not many interesting tactical situations.

Now, none of that is to say DA2 was better (or even close to good) but what Skyrim does isn't a highlight of the game for me.

The world  design, the enemy design, armor and weapons look are all things I love. I just got to Markath and was blown away by that city and how it felt - it was what I wanted Orzammar to feel like. I also like the "not on the map" stuff that you trip over. I like not everything being tied to a quest and something are just "there".