77 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

And the banter you copy/pasted is the moment I decided I really didn't care for Sebastian that much, but even that didn't inspire hatred in me. Though it certainly made me love Fenris more. There is a line Fenris won't cross, and I respect that. DG did an excellent job writing him. Really, Choir Boy is too boring to inspire much more from me than just..."meh" is the only sound I can think of to describe it.

I admit, that's one of those lines that made me at least respect Fenris. Certainly I respect him more than the templars; in an odd twist, he has both more reasons to hate mages and is somewhat more tolerant than many templars still.

[Melca36]

Huntress wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I just don't recruit Sebastian anymore. Its that simple.

You think so?then How are you going to kill him in the future? Thats why I recruit him to be able to kill him later! yes everyone wants something and expect to get it sooner or later. Gay armors.. well now...thats something.. I want a gay dress in real life!, maybe it will make me happier!

Note: I am a very happy woman but.. I can't say NO to more happiness.

I have some saved games where he is recruited and some where he isn't.

I am sure the developer have worked it out that the DLC will be playable even if you don't recruit him.

I only do his one quest in ACT One. I ignore him in ACT 2 and 3 that way I don't have to hear self righteous prophetizing.  

And hopefuly we will get his wish.

[Melca36]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Huntress wrote...

ladyshamen wrote...

motomotogirl, must be left over from the days when he was fun!


Seb bothers me. He's really wishy-washy. His character had promise that was never played out. IMO

I am with you, Sebastian is the only character I do not like.. at all, can't wait to be able to kill the idiot, that would be the day all my mages turn to blood-magic to force the maker to watch over Sebastian's blood drained body.

Wow, Huntress, you shouldn't hold back.  Tell us how you really feel?

To be honest I'm astonished Sebastian inspires this much antipathy from a player.  Aside from his quests and some minor flirtation with a female Hawke, I felt his execution in the game was poorly done.  He gets a badass intro, which held so much promise...then...nothing.  I find him very 'meh'.

I'd much prefered to have Nathaniel Howe instead of the Starkhaven Prince/Choir Boy.

Although I do enjoy his Act 2 quest immensely, especially if you've done Night Terrors with Isabela first and bring her along for her commentary in Redemption.  Comedy gold!

My Cousland Warden would yell at Sebastian for not helping Hawke kill those mercanaries. She would tell that way she was sworn to protect the land from the Blight, revenge was never far from her mind.

Sebastian is the type who would ask my Warden if she had any regrets killing Howe and she would say....

"My nephew was only nine years old. I saw his lifeless body next to his mother's. I fought my way through Howe's men and knelt in my father's blood as he begged Duncan to take my mother and me away before it was too late. My last memory is my mother remaining with my dying father as Duncan pulled me away to escape.  Howe's last words to me were, 'Maker spit on you, I deserved more.'  I plunged the family sword in him over and over until Alistair pulled me away. So no Sebastian, I have no regrets except for one....my brother should have been there to help me kill him. He's remarried now to a wonderful woman but that loss will always be with him as it is with me."

[Thiefy]

motomotogirl wrote...

I find it really hard to like Sebastian. He is the only companion who, even at 100% friendship (and even in a romance!) will refuse to support Hawke. His ideals are more important than his friendships and loyalties. In my opinion, that's a dangerous person and a cold person.

However, it's really more about the consequences of who you choose. If the choice were kill Sebastian or side with Anders, well, I would not KILL Sebastian, even though I like him less. But since the alternative to keeping Sebastian is killing a companion in cold blood, I just can't do it.

Tha'ts not entirely true. There's also Anders, and on two points:
1)Both characters will insist upon one certain action - Anders will always blow up the chantry and nothing, not even Hawke romance will stop him. Sebastian will insist on Anders' death, and nothing will stop his thirst for that, either.
2)Both can be convince of either pro-mage OR pro-templar side once you get past their moments of derpness.

So there are two NPCs that will hold their views more important than a person (i dont think that's a bad trait either), unless you just play "the right way" around certain events and they will side with you - at a cost.

[CuriousArtemis]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

So there are two NPCs that will hold their views more important than a person (i dont think that's a bad trait either), unless you just play "the right way" around certain events and they will side with you - at a cost.

Yeah, good point, that is true   

And *tiny voice* if Fenris told my romanced Hawke that Sebastian had to go, Hawke's dagger would be out faster than Isabela's panties in a battle.

Oh my gosh that felt good to finally admit  Sebastian fans, I ask your sincere forgiveness.  I'm done logicking my way out of this LOL *meep*

[Xilizhra]

Tha'ts not entirely true. There's also Anders, and on two points:
1)Both characters will insist upon one certain action - Anders will always blow up the chantry and nothing, not even Hawke romance will stop him. Sebastian will insist on Anders' death, and nothing will stop his thirst for that, either.
2)Both can be convince of either pro-mage OR pro-templar side once you get past their moments of derpness.

Anders is really more psychologically tortured into siding with the templars if that happens, not convinced as such.

[Thiefy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tha'ts not entirely true. There's also Anders, and on two points:
1)Both characters will insist upon one certain action - Anders will always blow up the chantry and nothing, not even Hawke romance will stop him. Sebastian will insist on Anders' death, and nothing will stop his thirst for that, either.
2)Both can be convince of either pro-mage OR pro-templar side once you get past their moments of derpness.

Anders is really more psychologically tortured into siding with the templars if that happens, not convinced as such.

That's not how I would interpret the situation (don't really see who is torturing him in that point in the time, other than himself; the PC's motivation COULD be to antagonize him more but it could also be that they want to look out for Anders since he can't even trust himself - as he has been saying for quite sometime, and at that point in time he actually trusts Hawke's judgement more than his own. OR they want him to bear the responsibilities of his actions instead of letting him skip free and making Hawke do all the dirty work), but either way it's still possible to convince him of the otherside.

[esper]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Tha'ts not entirely true. There's also Anders, and on two points:
1)Both characters will insist upon one certain action - Anders will always blow up the chantry and nothing, not even Hawke romance will stop him. Sebastian will insist on Anders' death, and nothing will stop his thirst for that, either.
2)Both can be convince of either pro-mage OR pro-templar side once you get past their moments of derpness.

Anders is really more psychologically tortured into siding with the templars if that happens, not convinced as such.

That's not how I would interpret the situation (don't really see who is torturing him in that point in the time, other than himself; the PC's motivation COULD be to antagonize him more but it could also be that they want to look out for Anders since he can't even trust himself - as he has been saying for quite sometime, and at that point in time he actually trusts Hawke's judgement more than his own. OR they want him to bear the responsibilities of his actions instead of letting him skip free and making Hawke do all the dirty work), but either way it's still possible to convince him of the otherside.

if you force him to side with the templars, he is so broken that he hints at suicide. He has no faith whatsoever left in himself and is blindly clingly to Hawke's judgment. That is also why you can only do it on rival-path where Hawke has repeatly pointed out he is a monster and made a mistake with fusing with Justice. On frienship path he has enough faith in himself to be sure that he did a necessary thing. Anders is not pro-templar in this scenerio, he is anti-anders -  if I had explained it proberly enough.

[Thiefy]

esper wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Tha'ts not entirely true. There's also Anders, and on two points:
1)Both characters will insist upon one certain action - Anders will always blow up the chantry and nothing, not even Hawke romance will stop him. Sebastian will insist on Anders' death, and nothing will stop his thirst for that, either.
2)Both can be convince of either pro-mage OR pro-templar side once you get past their moments of derpness.

Anders is really more psychologically tortured into siding with the templars if that happens, not convinced as such.

That's not how I would interpret the situation (don't really see who is torturing him in that point in the time, other than himself; the PC's motivation COULD be to antagonize him more but it could also be that they want to look out for Anders since he can't even trust himself - as he has been saying for quite sometime, and at that point in time he actually trusts Hawke's judgement more than his own. OR they want him to bear the responsibilities of his actions instead of letting him skip free and making Hawke do all the dirty work), but either way it's still possible to convince him of the otherside.

if you force him to side with the templars, he is so broken that he hints at suicide. He has no faith whatsoever left in himself and is blindly clingly to Hawke's judgment. That is also why you can only do it on rival-path where Hawke has repeatly pointed out he is a monster and made a mistake with fusing with Justice. On frienship path he has enough faith in himself to be sure that he did a necessary thing. Anders is not pro-templar in this scenerio, he is anti-anders -  if I had explained it proberly enough.

I know tha Anders has never doubted "the cause" but he has contineously doubted himself - obviously for the right reason in the case of the rivalmance. He saw it coming, Hawke saw it coming and yet neither of them could prevent it from happening, and that's why he chooses to just follow Hawke's advice no matter what. He'll never think his cause is wrong, but that doesn't mean you don't convince him that his actions were wrong.

And yes, you explained it well. I do understand what you mean and agree also. I am just trying to clarify myself from the earlier post as well. :happy:

[Malanu]

I liked Anders back in Origins. He's to, "whine whine Justice got ruined cause of me & Whine whine Templars *Rar*!"

Sebastian I liked, cause of his drama. Prince turned Paladin... yet wondering if he should be prince again! Is there a way to get him to go back home and rule... without turning him against you? Cause he loves him some Chantry far as I can tell! Not to mention He seems to be a good influence on Fenris in my game. His dialogue when they are together seems to be helpful advice from the noble. Even if it is heavily laced with religious propaganda.

Modifié par Malanu, 19 janvier 2012 - 06:12 .

[sylvanaerie]

Malanu wrote...

I liked Anders back in Origins. He's to, "whine whine Justice got ruined cause of me & Whine whine Templars *Rar*!"

Sebastian I liked, cause of his drama. Prince turned Paladin... yet wondering if he should be prince again! Is there a way to get him to go back home and rule... without turning him against you? Cause he loves him some Chantry far as I can tell! Not to mention He seems to be a good influence on Fenris in my game. His dialogue when they are together seems to be helpful advice from the noble. Even if it is heavily laced with religious propaganda.

If you "Rival" him, it's all encouraging him to go back to Starkhaven and rule instead of staying in the Chantry.  The only time I rivaled him was when I tried the rivalmance (which was even more unsatisfying than his friendship romance).  He stays with Hawke till the Last Straw, and if you kill Anders will help in the Gallows.  If you don't, he leaves (presumably to return to Starkhaven, Varric doesn't say in the epilogue).

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 19 janvier 2012 - 06:44 .

[Gervaise]

Sebastian is actually quite a reasonable person with regard to his faith. He tells Isabella that he prefers to convert by example rather than just preaching, which she approves of, and he is the only person who actually reflects in MoA that if elves are converting to the Qunari that perhaps they have reason to. I really had high hopes of him becoming a good ruler and hope that something may develop in a DLC or DA3. I never had any problem persuading him to help me save the Circle Mages but then I do always execute Anders when Sebastian was there.

[Chun Hei]

I like Sebastian and cannot wait for him to keep his promise to return for Templar Hawke once he is officially Prince of Starkhaven. It will give somewhere for Vicount Hawke to go when she leaves Kirkwall. I like his friendship with Fenris almost as much as I like Isabela's and Merrill's. And if I do not romance him I have him hang out with Bethany during the DLCs. They would make a cute couple.

As for Anders I did not like him but I LIKE the fact that I did not like him if you understand what I am saying. I understood why he did what he did but he usually winds up as an adversary for my Hawkes and is usually executed.

[Melca36]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Sebastian is actually quite a reasonable person with regard to his faith. He tells Isabella that he prefers to convert by example rather than just preaching, which she approves of, and he is the only person who actually reflects in MoA that if elves are converting to the Qunari that perhaps they have reason to. I really had high hopes of him becoming a good ruler and hope that something may develop in a DLC or DA3.

I agree, that is how I feel about Sebastian. I didn't find him to be preachy, flighty definitely, but not preachy. He's a decent sort and I think his expectation of Anders being executed is perfectly reasonable. RP-ing aside, I'd execute Anders every single time whether Sebastian demanded it or not because Anders deserves death for his actions and he knows it. In fact killing Anders is almost a mercy considering how much his "self" control deteriorates over the span of the game.

I only execute Anders with my rogues.

My mages do not care for the chantry. They lived their life hiding who they are and would rather die fighting to make a better life for mages.  So they ran off with him.  

[Ryzaki]

Gervaise wrote...

Sebastian is actually quite a reasonable person with regard to his faith. He tells Isabella that he prefers to convert by example rather than just preaching, which she approves of, and he is the only person who actually reflects in MoA that if elves are converting to the Qunari that perhaps they have reason to. I really had high hopes of him becoming a good ruler and hope that something may develop in a DLC or DA3. I never had any problem persuading him to help me save the Circle Mages but then I do always execute Anders when Sebastian was there.

Agreed.

After dragging him around he grew on me a smidge.

[Xilizhra]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Sebastian is actually quite a reasonable person with regard to his faith. He tells Isabella that he prefers to convert by example rather than just preaching, which she approves of, and he is the only person who actually reflects in MoA that if elves are converting to the Qunari that perhaps they have reason to. I really had high hopes of him becoming a good ruler and hope that something may develop in a DLC or DA3.

I agree, that is how I feel about Sebastian. I didn't find him to be preachy, flighty definitely, but not preachy. He's a decent sort and I think his expectation of Anders being executed is perfectly reasonable. RP-ing aside, I'd execute Anders every single time whether Sebastian demanded it or not because Anders deserves death for his actions and he knows it. In fact killing Anders is almost a mercy considering how much his "self" control deteriorates over the span of the game.

If he survives, Anders recovers his self-control considerably. Unless you go evil, of course.
Sebastian isn't... preachy as such, but being a nigh-traitor and frequent Chantry apologist don't endear me to him that much.

[Xilizhra]

Um, no. He never says that in the final battle; he's far more optimistic and controlled during that.

[AnniLau]

I didn't hate Sebastian, but I found him vaguely annoying whenever I had him in my party. And that question he asks towards the end, about whether you'd hesitate to execute Anders if he (Sebastian) had been in the Chantry when it blew up just always seems...presumptuous. It makes me want to murder-knife him and skip away with Anders, regardless of what my original intentions had been for that particular PC.

[dragonflight288]

Personally, Sebastian isn't that annoying to me...except when it comes to Elthina. He's a decent guy who goes out of his way to understand Fenris and tries to help Anders...and when Anders tries to pick a fight in banter, Sebastian ignores him by imagining shapes in the clouds. Merrill makes a nice comment in that banter.

Personally, I don't see that as Anders vs Sebastian, but a man who desperately wanted to free mages and a man who lost the only thing that gave him a foundation in his life and lost his mother-figure who practically raised him. Their interests would come into conflict eventually.

I didn't like how Sebastian threatened all of Kirkwall if we spare Anders, but I also don't like how Anders felt like he could speak for every mage throughout Thedas either.

[Thiefy]

Xilizhra wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Sebastian is actually quite a reasonable person with regard to his faith. He tells Isabella that he prefers to convert by example rather than just preaching, which she approves of, and he is the only person who actually reflects in MoA that if elves are converting to the Qunari that perhaps they have reason to. I really had high hopes of him becoming a good ruler and hope that something may develop in a DLC or DA3.

I agree, that is how I feel about Sebastian. I didn't find him to be preachy, flighty definitely, but not preachy. He's a decent sort and I think his expectation of Anders being executed is perfectly reasonable. RP-ing aside, I'd execute Anders every single time whether Sebastian demanded it or not because Anders deserves death for his actions and he knows it. In fact killing Anders is almost a mercy considering how much his "self" control deteriorates over the span of the game.

If he survives, Anders recovers his self-control considerably. Unless you go evil, of course.
Sebastian isn't... preachy as such, but being a nigh-traitor and frequent Chantry apologist don't endear me to him that much.

A frequent Chantry apologist? Don't really see that unless you mean the same 'apologizing' way you are defending Anders, right?

You can understand and rationalize how someone thinks or acts without agreeing with them OR demonizing them. I happen to like ALL of the male LIs but they all have their faults and strength. Sebastian is a man that is steadfast in his faith but that hardly makes him a zealot.

Think about it - his main gripe was that his surrogate mother was killed, NOT the holy establishment of the chantry or it's devout followers. His main course of action is to (try) to take things into his own hands if you deny him 'justice' (very ironic), not to follow the proper protocol and get the rest of the faithful involved to exterminate those who would oppose the word of the maker or defile his sacred temple/church/building/whatever.

i actually think that had Elthina not died, he could have been talked down. It would have been like a "hardening" experience for him but he probably could have been convinced of mercy, though he would only grudingly do so and have a pretty big chip on his shoulder. the Elthina/Seb/Anders conflicts is clearly a shadow or echo of the Duncan/Alistair/Loghain conflict.

Up until his moment of crisis, Sebastian has a lot of humility - something his haters seem to over look or purposefully ignore. He's well aware of the faults of indivduals and certain groups of people within the chantry and doesn't make an excuse for them; he acknowledges that there are things that should be changed or improved, but it would be a little OOC to expect he just drop everything he has learned and believed after a handful of quests with someone who is more or less a stranger.

[sylvanaerie]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If he survives, Anders recovers his self-control considerably. Unless you go evil, of course.
Sebastian isn't... preachy as such, but being a nigh-traitor and frequent Chantry apologist don't endear me to him that much.

Hmm, that's not the impression I got. In fact doesn't he flat out tell you that he's losing to Justice at the end battle and in the dlc. 

He does if you rival him.

*Edit* you have to rival him, do his final quest (where he plants the bomb in the chantry and you distract the Grand Cleric).  Then you have to try to convince him in his final Questioning Beliefs quest that there must be a peaceful solution he hasn't tried yet.  I am unsure if this conversation happens if you refuse to help him with the Grand Cleric distraction.
In the final moments before you go to stop the templars (or join them in the RoA), the conversation is different.  He says Justice took him over and he can't stop it anymore.  He actually begs you to kill him.  And there is a line to forgive him--"I know you would have changed it if you could."
Since I am kind of a 'completist fanatic' I have tried to refuse to do that final step, but then I had to reload because I didn't get his final QB quest/convo.  I only found out by serendipity the first time it happened when I rivaled him and did all the quests that game.  I am unsure if he says something different in the Gallows after this conversation.  I've never been able to NOT murderknife him in Lowtown.

I take copious snapshots and have written a short, four chapter fanfic with a rivaled Anders.  I have a 'transcript' of his conversations from both of these in my story (chapters 2 and 3) on the boards here, if you are curious about them.
http://social.biowar...7/index/8198092

There is only one small embellishment in the tale, where Hawke points out the church was packed for Mass and Anders delays going.  I wanted to illustrate that he would have stalled Justice at least that much.  All too many fics seem to have the joint packed like a nightclub with widows, orphans and recently rescued slaves, demonizing Anders' action beyond belief.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 janvier 2012 - 09:31 .