114 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyAvenger]

I always choose that convo option, frankly its hilarious, and I still ship Joker/EDI. One main reason? AI's in the ME'verse are thinking, feeling, sentient beings. That means EDI can develop feelings and fall for Joker and vice-versa.

[NamiraWilhelm]

Sofia Lamb wrote...

EDIT: No name calling! 

I sort of love you.


Anyway plenty of people have already made wonderful points. The disabled guy getting shafted with the fake lady is laughable, and he deserves better.

As a side note, the majority of joker fans are hot young and career driven, much like the man himself.

Modifié par Jessica Merizan, 30 décembre 2011 - 06:07 .

[CrutchCricket]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...
As for EDI, she is an artificial intelligence...comprised solely of simulated emotions and reactions. She was never meant to operate as an autonomous being like some other sci-fi characters like Data from Star Trek: The Next Generation, or the Doctor of Star Trek: Voyager. In a lot of ways, she is similar to the Doctor, but she wasn't programmed to be anyone's companion, or even to be in an autonomous form. Myself and other Joker/Shepard shippers believe that she's also not mature enough a personality (really, she's only a year old in terms of experience by the events of ME3), so she's not ready for such a relationship. Joker also refers to her as "mom" on several occasions, and I don't think that's a good thing for a relationship if someone reminds a guy of their mother. But maybe that's just me.

Also, it sends a bit of an insensitive message when you pair the disabled guy with a robot...it also seems to imply that people who withdraw from most situations emotionally can only handle relationships with their computers and not with human beings. Like that creepy guy who never talks to anyone, but only sits on his computer all day.

Couple of counterpoints to consider:

AIs are essentially sentient beings and as such they can and do grow beyond their programming. The fact that EDI was just programmed to be a ship AI doesn't really matter, especially now that she's unshackled.
AIs process far faster than organics. So saying "she's only a year old" or even three isn't really accurate. Hell even in modern computing a year is ancient history.
You seem to emphasize "simulated" a lot. I think that's incorrect. VIs have simulated emotions because VIs are just programs with a personality interface. AIs on the other hand are sentient consciousnesses. Why are their emotions any less valid than ours?

I also don't believe the Joker/EDI pairing implies Joker is unworthy of a human because of his condition. Certainly it's a conclusion that can be drawn. But it's not necessarily so. In fact you can even dispell it outright by having Joker reference previous relationships (like you said we don't know that much about him)

I think the pairing is just as valid as any other in Mass Effect though it may take more work than some to make it believable. And if people's Sheps want Joker for themselves, what's EDI gonna do about it?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 29 décembre 2011 - 06:46 .

[Spoiledrotten]

CrutchCricket beat me to it.

Seriously, I approve.

+10

[shepskisaac]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

it also seems to imply that people who withdraw from most situations emotionally can only handle relationships with their computers and not with human beings. Like that creepy guy who never talks to anyone, but only sits on his computer all day.

Except no one would every think like that since Joker's outspoken and no one sees him as a person who would have any problem asking out a real girl if he was interested. He's definitely not viewed as the 'creepy antisocial nerd'

[HolyAvenger]

BTW whoever is carping about JokerMancers, I argued for Joker/EDI in their thread and they didn't rage at me or anything so feel free to stop stereotyping them and stuff.

[Eclipse_9990]

Fleshdress wrote...

I think it's cute. *shrug* Probably cause I don't want to romance him though. If Shep can date and alien Joker can date a hot AI. The only thing that would make it a little weird is that at this point Joker refers to Edi as his mother more then once.

"Hot"? She's a holographic sphere. 

[JoeLaTurkey]

I support; for their name is JEDI

[Ryzaki]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

I think it's cute. *shrug* Probably cause I don't want to romance him though. If Shep can date and alien Joker can date a hot AI. The only thing that would make it a little weird is that at this point Joker refers to Edi as his mother more then once.

"Hot"? She's a holographic sphere. 

EDIT REMOVED SPOILERS

Either way I'm not fond of the ship but I'm kind of worn out from ranting about it. I'll just nip it in the bud and call it a day.

Modifié par Jessica Merizan, 30 décembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[naledgeborn]

EDI getting EDITED SPOILERS is the worst kind of fan pandering this series has seen so far. My opinion. Don't like it, don't respond.

Modifié par Jessica Merizan, 30 décembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[android654]

Might wanna edit that, that's still a "spoiler."

*SPOILER*



Could be me, but banging a robot seems a bit odd. It seems odd everytime its been done. The only time it had some kind of relevance was... Blade Runner? TSCC? In those instances the robots were "human," either they were ignorant of their robot origins or everyone else was. But to willfully have sex with a machine is weird to say the least, especially since this robot was previously a piece of software.


*SPOILER*

Modifié par android654, 29 décembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[CDRSkyShepard]

IsaacShep wrote...

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

it also seems to imply that people who withdraw from most situations emotionally can only handle relationships with their computers and not with human beings. Like that creepy guy who never talks to anyone, but only sits on his computer all day.

Except no one would every think like that since Joker's outspoken and no one sees him as a person who would have any problem asking out a real girl if he was interested. He's definitely not viewed as the 'creepy antisocial nerd'

Joker is outspoken, but not when it comes to his personal life. I don't see him as putting himself out there to get rejected on a whim. I do see him going after someone if he feels like there is a very good chance of success. He's outspoken, but he's snarky and is the master at evading the real heart of matters: he has this sarcastic facade that most definitely has to hide some insecurities. He didn't sail through life, and he's probably built up a lot of barriers to keep people from getting too close.

I don't think he'd be the creepy guy in the corner. That's why I don't think he should be romancing a robot. I also don't want him turning into Gaius Baltar.

Sure, if EDI can be given a chance to outgrow her programming, I'm all for it. I am a huge fan of Star Trek, and I absolutely adore Data and the Doctor because they aspire to become something better than themselves. But, if you look at both characters...they are chronically single. Again, if anyone has Netflix, I highly encourage you check out the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "In Theory." Data manages to simulate emotions, but they aren't real...they're just a file in his positronic brain. I'd imagine EDI's would be similar.

I also say "simulated," because that's what it is. Mordin specifically refers to EDI's speech as having, "Simulated emotional inflections." AI's do not have limbic systems, or any other way to process emotions, they only have the capacity to simulate them so that we organics percieve them as having emotion...if that makes sense to anyone. Then we can get into a whole philosophical debate on perception vs. reality, but that would be tiresome. Just because we percieve them to have emotion, doesn't mean they actually do. EDI doesn't have emotions written into her subroutines like the Doctor does, and unless someone writes them in, I don't buy it. And if someone writes them in for the sake of writing them in and no other compelling reason, I still won't buy it.

At risk of sounding like a broken record, if BioWare wants to make Joker/EDI happen, I'm alright with it. I don't think it's the best idea, but it's not the worst, either. However, I am not alright with it if they do it at the expense of the Joker/Shepard fan base, which - I will say again - has existed since 2007. More than two years before we knew EDI existed. And no one can say that we haven't been noticed...we have one thread that's 300+ pages long, and another that's darn close to breaking 300. Honestly, what would we have to do to get what we've been (politely, I might add) asking for since ME1 came out? Sorry, but putting Joker with the darn ship's computer seems like a bit of insult added to injury when we've come so far, and gathered so much support.

Let me put it in perspective for y'all...it would be like if BioWare had told the Tali and Garrus fans, "Sorry guys, but we thought these two would just be too cute together...so they don't get to be LIs for you!" I think the whole BSN might have exploded.

[CDRSkyShepard]

HolyAvenger wrote...

BTW whoever is carping about JokerMancers, I argued for Joker/EDI in their thread and they didn't rage at me or anything so feel free to stop stereotyping them and stuff.

Oh yeah, and I thought I should add that the other Jokermancers and I are in full favor of parading this guy around the forums as an example of how one should behave when posting a dissenting argument in a thread.

HolyAvenger, keep doing your awesome thing, even if I don't completely agree with you all the time.

Modifié par CDRSkyShepard, 30 décembre 2011 - 04:55 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Vanguardforwin wrote...

Let's try to save this thread. Joker doesn't have a personality befitting of Shepard. Every person Shepard can romance idolize him.

Jack doesn't idolise him.

[The_Other_M]

I can see it happening.
All EDI needs is a cute and/or sexy female avatar, and Joker would be set.

[The_Other_M]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

I think it's cute. *shrug* Probably cause I don't want to romance him though. If Shep can date and alien Joker can date a hot AI. The only thing that would make it a little weird is that at this point Joker refers to Edi as his mother more then once.

"Hot"? She's a holographic sphere. 

EDIT REMOVED SPOILERS

Either way I'm not fond of the ship but I'm kind of worn out from ranting about it. I'll just nip it in the bud and call it a day.

What? Really!
NICE.

Modifié par Jessica Merizan, 30 décembre 2011 - 06:11 .

[TheKillerAngel]

Ticktank's politically incorrect quips never cease to amuse me.

[Random citizen]

CrutchCricket wrote...

CDRSkyShepard wrote...
As for EDI, she is an artificial intelligence...comprised solely of simulated emotions and reactions. She was never meant to operate as an autonomous being like some other sci-fi characters like Data from Star Trek: The Next Generation, or the Doctor of Star Trek: Voyager. In a lot of ways, she is similar to the Doctor, but she wasn't programmed to be anyone's companion, or even to be in an autonomous form. Myself and other Joker/Shepard shippers believe that she's also not mature enough a personality (really, she's only a year old in terms of experience by the events of ME3), so she's not ready for such a relationship. Joker also refers to her as "mom" on several occasions, and I don't think that's a good thing for a relationship if someone reminds a guy of their mother. But maybe that's just me.

Also, it sends a bit of an insensitive message when you pair the disabled guy with a robot...it also seems to imply that people who withdraw from most situations emotionally can only handle relationships with their computers and not with human beings. Like that creepy guy who never talks to anyone, but only sits on his computer all day.

Couple of counterpoints to consider:

AIs are essentially sentient beings and as such they can and do grow beyond their programming. The fact that EDI was just programmed to be a ship AI doesn't really matter, especially now that she's unshackled.
AIs process far faster than organics. So saying "she's only a year old" or even three isn't really accurate. Hell even in modern computing a year is ancient history.
You seem to emphasize "simulated" a lot. I think that's incorrect. VIs have simulated emotions because VIs are just programs with a personality interface. AIs on the other hand are sentient consciousnesses. Why are their emotions any less valid than ours?

I also don't believe the Joker/EDI pairing implies Joker is unworthy of a human because of his condition. Certainly it's a conclusion that can be drawn. But it's not necessarily so. In fact you can even dispell it outright by having Joker reference previous relationships (like you said we don't know that much about him)

I think the pairing is just as valid as any other in Mass Effect though it may take more work than some to make it believable. And if people's Sheps want Joker for themselves, what's EDI gonna do about it?

Yes, it is important to understand the differences between VIs and AIs in mass effect.
Placing to much focus on things being simulations and program is a problem if we don't know where some things end and where others begin. Its not only based on the assumption on the status of the experience of the "other" but also assume that one self is not "programmed".

Modifié par Random citizen, 30 décembre 2011 - 05:45 .

[Jessica Merizan]

Guys, please remember not to quote people who are trolling or name calling. It makes it incredibly time-consuming to edit later. If people are causing problems in a thread please PM me or tweet at me (Twitter will get my attention quicker since it goes to my phone) and ignore them until a moderator can take care of it.

Also, I don't want to see rumors from the leaked beta distributed on our public forums, even if they are behind a cut or a warning. That material is incomplete and full of inaccurate information.

Modifié par Jessica Merizan, 30 décembre 2011 - 06:15 .

[Homebound]

The real question is, if EDI became the Normandy at the end of the game after taking her ai-dogleash off, does that mean Joker has been inside her already?

[ediskrad327]

^oh yeah!

[Vanguardforwin]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Vanguardforwin wrote...

Let's try to save this thread. Joker doesn't have a personality befitting of Shepard. Every person Shepard can romance idolize him.

Jack doesn't idolise him.

if he romances her all the way she does. 

[HolyAvenger]

Hellbound555 wrote...

The real question is, if EDI became the Normandy at the end of the game after taking her ai-dogleash off, does that mean Joker has been inside her already?

So has Shepard and everybody else, the naughty little minx.

Thanks Sky! I always appreciate being paraded:D

[CrutchCricket]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...
I also say "simulated," because that's what it is. Mordin specifically refers to EDI's speech as having, "Simulated emotional inflections." AI's do not have limbic systems, or any other way to process emotions, they only have the capacity to simulate them so that we organics percieve them as having emotion...if that makes sense to anyone. Then we can get into a whole philosophical debate on perception vs. reality, but that would be tiresome. Just because we percieve them to have emotion, doesn't mean they actually do. EDI doesn't have emotions written into her subroutines like the Doctor does, and unless someone writes them in, I don't buy it. And if someone writes them in for the sake of writing them in and no other compelling reason, I still won't buy it.

I think your definitions are still being too exacting and not giving enough credit to AI development. AIs are more than just machines or software, they are actual lifeforms albeit synthetic ones. Obvious examples besides EDI ares the geth (though they would be a more interesting case to study in a debate like this due to how they function). No way to process emotions? Organic life forms are largely mechanical in the sense that most of what comprises us is a physical system, subject to physical laws. AIs are nothing but processing power. The ability to feel, to think is done with only what 20-30% of our being? An entity that is purely mind, or purely software could potentially process emotions with the entirety of its being- really AIs should be able to experience emotions much deeper than any organics. See Legion's speech about hardware vs software. There are many routes I could argue this (including a philosophical examination of perception- Berkeley anyone?) but I don't have the time right now for all of them.

I also wouldn't take Mordin's quote too literally. Remember he Sherlock-scans everything and does it out loud.  "Simulated emotional inflections"- is only a inference in the middle of his train of thought- it's not his conclusion. He has no reason to presuppose an AI but more reason to assume a VI. And recall Maelon: "You always had trouble dealing with facts that didn't fit with your theories". Mordin it seems sometimes makes the cardinal mistake Holmes always warns against- constructing a theory before you have all the facts. Even all this aside, Mordin may not think much of AI and he might carry a biological bias- which many people do.

[snfonseka]

Don't like the idea.