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[Aldora92]

 The first time I seen "The Mother" in DA:O Awakenings I instantly thought of Morrigan, she has a slight resemblance. After learning that The Hero of ferelden/warden commander disappeared that he may be The Architect, also called the father. I know that this would only fit if the warden was male, and it doesn't fit with the whole magister theory on The architect/corypheus, though this still is only theory, it has been hinted at but not confirmed. Either that or the ritual child was the architect, and when he was born, he had the spirit of the god in him, then he himself was somehow transported back to when the magisters invaded the golden city and was corrupted.
In Origins and witch hunt we find out that the mirror of arlathan is tainted, it turned tamlen and could have turned the warden/duncan in the dalish elf origin. We go after the mirror in witch hunt so it is possible that if you go with morrigan into the mirror that you are tainted (i believe playing a male/doing the ritual and going into the mirror are cannon) I think that some sort of space/time thing went on here where morrigan and the warden are transported to some place and time different to their own, where the corruption takes place.
We hear from morrigan that flemeth was loved by two men, one of them was jealous so gave her to the other, this is similar to what happened to Andraste, being that maferath gave her to the imperium. We also hear that one end of the bargain was not kept, the coin promised was not given, this is also similar to what happened with Maferath, he was promised a kingdom, it crumbled before him. Then morrigan says that flemeth did not turn to the spirit until much later, now because of these similarities i believe that Flemeth IS Andraste, and though we are told Andraste was killed, i believe that a thing similar to flemeth and the locket happened, where it was only part of her, not a whole. I also think that with the theories on the tevinter magisters and the darkspawn and old gods, that it would fit for Flemeth to be Andraste, being against the "false deities" and helping our DA heroes against darkspawn. IT is also said that Andraste was believed to have been reborn in the form of a dragon, this is a form that we all know Flemeth possesses. It is also hinted in "The Search for the True Prophet" that Andraste was simply a powerful mage.

Modifié par Aldora92, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:16 .

[Aldora92]

I should also say, in case somebody comments on it, I do not have a theory on what she does with Children, being what she would have done with the ritual baby or with children she possibly steals. Also if people mention about sending Morrigan(possibly a vessel) away, its the greater good, the world is more important to her then her own life, though she does value herself very much.

[RampantAndroid]

Aldora92 wrote...

 The first time I seen "The Mother" in DA:O Awakenings I instantly thought of Morrigan, she has a slight resemblance. After learning that The Hero of ferelden/warden commander disappeared that he may be The Architect, also called the father. I know that this would only fit if the warden was male, and it doesn't fit with the whole magister theory on The architect/corypheus, though this still is only theory, it has been hinted at but not confirmed.

It doesn't fit the timeline. Hawke's father redid the bindings on the Architect, right? Hawke's father died just before DA2 began...and DA2 began shortly after DAO did. And Hawke's mother was pregnant with the protagonist (the Hawke that you play as, not Bethany or Carver) while Hawke's father was doing said work on the prison (and also note that the Warden was likely not yet born then...or was only a year or two old.)

When does Morrigan say this about Flemeth? Better, why would Andraste who seemingly was for controlling magic...be so for it?

Modifié par RampantAndroid, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I suspect that Flemeth would be older than Andraste and her timeline. Now, perhaps Andraste was a daughter of Flemeth's or an avatar or hers...?

I lean toward Flemeth being an entity separate from the Chantry and its evolution though. She doesn't seem to hearken to matters of the Maker. There are numerous theories floating about though - old god, elven god, etc and so forth.

Your theory about the OGB being transported back to the time of the magisters to become the Architect is interesting though. But...(if I understood the theory correctly), if a male warden was the architect (via Eluvian time travel) and Morrigan was the Mother, wouldn't the Architect have some recognition of his past-present self? And could two versions of the same person/entity exist in the same time/plane?

[Aldora92]

@RampantAndroid I was under the impression that Papa Hawke sealed Corypheus and NOT tthe Architect, i may be wrong.

And we get the Flemeth story from Morrigan in Origins, i always get it when i romance her, but not sure if this is a must to get the speech. It is about flemeths husband selling her to another man who was jealous of their love or something...

@whykikyouwhy My theory was in some way, the OGB was transported (likely to do with the Eluvian, though i'm sure Morrigan has this sort of power) back to the Tevinter, when the old gods were making the Magisters invade the Golden City, he already had the Old God spirit, and was corrupted and became The Architect.

I have a more complicated theory too, where there is a loop in time, and Morrigan/Flemeth are trying to break it. This theory being that the Old Gods spirit is always sent back to the invasion, CAUSES the corruption of the Golden City and all of the blights, and now Flemeth/Morrigan are trying to stop the loop by taking the tain away from the darkspawn, an idea that a corrupted Morrign no longer likes now that she is a broodmother, but i think this would be too complicated to explain, it is one of my theories and even i dont fully understand it

I have also considered Flemeth being an Elven god, old god or something and each time i have considered it i have also dismissed it.

[whykikyouwhy]

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around what about/within the Architect evokes "old god" - unless it's his focus on matters of the blight and the taint.

But, if Morrigan is actively and consciously working to stop a time loop, why would she willingly send the OGB back to the moment of invasion (of rotten twinkie city)? Is it in the hopes that he won't be corrupted? Or is a corrupted OGB preferable because he will have insight into how the taint works?

Not saying that your theory doesn't have validity...just trying to understand it more, if possible.

[Aldora92]

Well, i have only been reading up on the facts for a whole day so sorry if i get anything wrong. My understanding of the Architect being an old god relies on me thinking that the old gods were buried, and spoke to the magisters to find a way to free them, thus the invasion of the golden city occurred. Not knowing that the corruption would occur, and that the gods would become corrupt and the darkspawn born, the old gods want to find a way to be free of the corruption, yet because of it, they cannot act on their wishes. Flemeth somehow found a ritual where sending an old god, in place of a magister into the golden city during the invasion, would somehow negate the effect of the corruption, or, if the OGB was corrupt, would reverse the corruption on "The architect". The Architect tells us that he was simply "born this way", so that would fit into my theory, i think :S

And again on Flemeth (in this theory, not the andraste one, unless the two can collide) She has always been a powerful witch, god, prophet, an original magister who wants to correct a wrong or whatever gives her power, and has always known of this loop, and has dedicated her life to finding a way to avoid it, taking the lives of her daughters or kidnapped children to prolong her life so that she can insure this loop be broken.

[Aldora92]

And sorry if i am being unclear at all, i aspire to be an author but have yet to start writing because i only come up with the bigger picture, i struggle with the little details that make the ending

I have not given it much thought untill you asked about it

[whykikyouwhy]

The tricky thing is the City itself. What it is, what it was, whether or not it was "black" before the invasion, or if the invasion itself triggered the blackened state (and thus, Corypheus did not find anything plush and wonderful and golden). So too, did Corypheus and the other magisters actually breach the City, or did they just *think* that they did?

So, going on your theory, if the Old Gods were imprisoned and in the City but were already corrupted, then the OGB, in place of a magister, would somehow cleanse the taint? (Or at least the original manner in which the corruption appeared, if different from the current darkspawn taint) Thus, a sort of matter/anti-matter reaction maybe? Or rather, opposing aspects of the same type of power colliding and canceling each other out? If so, this would make the OGB a sort of sacrifice, I suppose.

However, the Architect, whether he is an OGB or not, always struck me as being somewhat focused on his own survival. He talks a good game about fixing the blights (more or less), but he doesn't seem willing to forego his own existence in order to do so. Of course, it's been awhile since I played Awakening or read 'The Calling' so I may not be attributing the proper qualities to him.

No need to apologize for any fuzziness in theories, though. Speculation is all about talking things out, putting the ideas on paper (or post) and seeing what works when measured against various sources of info. It's fascinating stuff, really.

[Aldora92]

Sorry, i was unclear, in my theory the old gods were buried but not corrupted yet, the corruption i mentioned was from the spirit of the arch demon moving into the body of the OGB if it was corrupt upon transferring bodies and had not been cleansed by whatever magic morrigan performed.
By saying cleansing the corruption i should have made it clear that the only thing being cleansed of the corruption was OGB, this is because i seen the outbreak as a surge of power that caused a completely random effect rather then a specific act in which the corruption was the goal.
With the surge, the magisters would have been affected in the same way they originally were, and turned into darkspawn, or the "generals" and the OGB, who may have already been corrupt upon entering the city, was affected in the opposite way, with the corruption being cleansed.

[Aldora92]

but this all relies on the understanding that what we are told about the Golden city by the chantry is correct.

[RampantAndroid]

Aldora92 wrote...

@RampantAndroid I was under the impression that Papa Hawke sealed Corypheus and NOT tthe Architect, i may be wrong.

Yes, you're right, I mixed them up. But then you have to realize that when you play DAO, and import into DAOA...you as the warden fight the architect.

I'm lost as to your theory...you think the warden became the architect, yes? I don't see how that can be.

Modifié par RampantAndroid, 29 décembre 2011 - 10:09 .

[Aldora92]

Well, 2 theories, one were the warden is the architect (most unlikely) the other where his ritual child is, if it were the warden it would be the same as what happened to Morrigan, in my theory of her becoming the mother... this all comes from them going through the Eluvian, which has been known to carry the darkspawn corruption.

[whykikyouwhy]

Been mulling on this a bit (because I love speculation). With regard to:

Aldora92 wrote...

Flemeth somehow found a ritual where sending an old god, in place of a magister into the golden city during the invasion, would somehow negate the effect of the corruption, or, if the OGB was corrupt, would reverse the corruption on "The architect". The Architect tells us that he was simply "born this way", so that would fit into my theory, i think :S

So, is the OGB sent back in time & space via an Eluvian, or some other means? If an Eluvian, wouldn't it have to be a different Eluvian than the one Morrigan uses in Witch Hunt? (since that seems to portal to another realm, or so her conversation seems to indicate - and in said other realm, the child awaits) And, if an Eluvian, that begs the question of where it is, where the other one happens to be (the receiver or transmitter). 

At what point did Morrigan become a ghoul and broodmother? Was it from contact with a corrupted OGB? And does that then wipe her out of her memories? (Again, as The Mother confronting the Warden, there doesn't seem to be recognition.)

For all intents and purposes, it seems as though the Architect defines himself as darkspawn or darkspawn-kin - "I do not seek to rule my brethren. I only seek to release them from their chains." There are a few other references to "my people" etc. So did the travelling back the time of the City invasion wipe him of all his memories and awareness of his OGB nature? Or is that all just pretense?

Just wondering what your take on all of that is. 

[Aldora92]

All Eluvians are portal devices used in the times of Arlathan, though they were used to communicate and travel from city to city. We know that magic used in the times of Arlathan was different to the magic used in Tevinter, and modern day circles so who knows what powers they really hold. It was my understanding that if they can carry and transmit the taint, they are somehow linked to the fade, this would fit in with Tamlen saying he can hear voices through the Eluvian in the D-elf origin, this would lead me to believe that its true powers could be limitless int he right - or wrong hands.

As for morrigan becoming a broodmother, perhaps she took the child to the city, as he was too young to go by himself, and was corrupted along with the magisters, and the child became free of the taint, as we know, females infected with the taint become broodmothers. The morrigan-being-the-mother theory popped into my head because of the resemblance and after played Witch Hunt, i decided that the settings for the morrigan/eluvian encounter was too similar to the location for fighting The Mother. As to her losing her memory, this could have come from the taint,

[Knight of Dane]

Broodmothers are created by Darkspawn, froce feeding human/dwarven/elven and possibly Qunari females.

And we don't *know* anything about Arlathan, the point to the forgotten elves is that it's a whole lot of useless relics and a lot of guesswork.

[Aldora92]

Darkspawn are not needed to create a Broodmother, they are created by females being tainted, darkspawn CAN make them, but it is not always the case.

And we DO KNOW that magic in Arlathan was different then magic used in the imperium and magic used now, because elves are still trying to reclaim it, if it were not different then the elves would have no quest, they would simply rebuild. Besides, the Tevinter magisters tried to recreate the Arlathan magics, they tried to use the Eluvians in the same way that the Elves of old did, and they could not... this leads me to beleieve that Flemeth was in someway linked to the elves back then, as she taught morrigan how to use them, and the elves revere here.

[whykikyouwhy]

Aldora92 wrote...

Darkspawn are not needed to create a Broodmother, they are created by females being tainted, darkspawn CAN make them, but it is not always the case.

And we DO KNOW that magic in Arlathan was different then magic used in the imperium and magic used now, because elves are still trying to reclaim it, if it were not different then the elves would have no quest, they would simply rebuild. Besides, the Tevinter magisters tried to recreate the Arlathan magics, they tried to use the Eluvians in the same way that the Elves of old did, and they could not... this leads me to beleieve that Flemeth was in someway linked to the elves back then, as she taught morrigan how to use them, and the elves revere here.

I do agree with that bolded bit, considering the exchange between Flemeth and Merrill on Sundermount. I'm not sure that the elves revere her so much as have a fearful respect of her. Fine lines there.

[Aldora92]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'm not sure that the elves revere her so much as have a fearful respect of her. Fine lines there.

Or this

[jlb524]

Aldora92 wrote...

And we DO KNOW that magic in Arlathan was different then magic used in the imperium and magic used now, because elves are still trying to reclaim it, if it were not different then the elves would have no quest, they would simply rebuild. Besides, the Tevinter magisters tried to recreate the Arlathan magics, they tried to use the Eluvians in the same way that the Elves of old did, and they could not... this leads me to beleieve that Flemeth was in someway linked to the elves back then, as she taught morrigan how to use them, and the elves revere here.

Are you saying that elven magic was inherently different or that they just knew more about the 'normal' magic we are familiar with?

[Aldora92]

jlb524 wrote...

Are you saying that elven magic was inherently different or that they just knew more about the 'normal' magic we are familiar with?

I am not saying either, just that it was different, i don't know how.

Using the DA-wikia on the page about Eluvians it says that its magic was different to that used in tevinter or by any circle.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Eluvian 

[jlb524]

Do you think Sandal's prophecy: "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide."

could be referring to that specific type of ancient magic perhaps?

[Aldora92]

Not encountered that speech yet But it sounds like it, i think Dwarves may even get a bit, going of what the game makes us think sandal has, The series really will rely on Flemeth though, i think that she has that power, the one we know nothing about.

There are 3 main things that the warden and hawke have in common that SHOULD effect where the story goes, they are Flemeth, Sandal and the Eluvian.

[jlb524]

Why the eluvian? That seems like a weak connection.

They both know of them because of Morrigan/Merrill but that's about it.

[Aldora92]

It has a strong part in the story for in witch hunt.
Besides, we know that it has a strong magic, Morrigan/Flemmeth, Merril and the magisters all want to use them. I think it will be cannon that the warden goes through, thus disappearing, which we know happened to both the warden and hawke...

This is how i have interpreted the story anyhow