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[Dean_the_Young]

AlphaDormante wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, but it may be necessary.

This is my take as well.

Out of curiosity, is this "necessity" in the form of the Reapers? Because if so, I can't say I agree.

Like asari, the average krogan lifespan is about 1000 years, right? It can probably be assumed that they'd mature at about the same rate. Liara says she's barely an adult at around age 100, and I distinctly remember an asari mentioning somewhere that she was in her 60s/70s/around that range and ready to get out of the house, which can be presumed as the late teens age. Meaning it takes them a while to mature.

Now consider this: krogan aren't born with an assault rifle in hand, ready to mow down their enemies. They need to be carried to term (a length of time that's also unknown), then they need to mature, and then they need training. If we're assuming that they develop along the same path as asari...that's looking at several decades. And I really don't think the Reapers are going to sit around for decades, twiddling their Cthulu-tentacles and waiting for an army of krogan to be raised.

If we're looking at a bunch of krogan for our forces, I think we'd actually be better off taking a page from Jedore's book. Clone a bunch and let them loose. Maybe they won't be quite as good as regular krogan, but throw them at ground forces like husks and Cerberus troops and that's already a load off of our back.

It might be necessary as the political cost for convincing the Krogan to join the unified war effort. Not necessary in terms of birthing more Krogan to overwhelm the Reapers.


The Krogan are one of the few species capable and able to fight the groundwar against the Reapers. Most other species are woefully underprepared for a total war. In so much as a ground war is decisive, the Krogan that exist are going to be important. They're able to fight the Council's ground war.

Whether they're willing, however, is what may necessitate the genophage cure.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, but it may be necessary.

This is my take as well.

Out of curiosity, is this "necessity" in the form of the Reapers? Because if so, I can't say I agree.

Like asari, the average krogan lifespan is about 1000 years, right? It can probably be assumed that they'd mature at about the same rate. Liara says she's barely an adult at around age 100, and I distinctly remember an asari mentioning somewhere that she was in her 60s/70s/around that range and ready to get out of the house, which can be presumed as the late teens age. Meaning it takes them a while to mature.

Now consider this: krogan aren't born with an assault rifle in hand, ready to mow down their enemies. They need to be carried to term (a length of time that's also unknown), then they need to mature, and then they need training. If we're assuming that they develop along the same path as asari...that's looking at several decades. And I really don't think the Reapers are going to sit around for decades, twiddling their Cthulu-tentacles and waiting for an army of krogan to be raised.

If we're looking at a bunch of krogan for our forces, I think we'd actually be better off taking a page from Jedore's book. Clone a bunch and let them loose. Maybe they won't be quite as good as regular krogan, but throw them at ground forces like husks and Cerberus troops and that's already a load off of our back.

It might be necessary as the political cost for convincing the Krogan to join the unified war effort. Not necessary in terms of birthing more Krogan to overwhelm the Reapers.


The Krogan are one of the few species capable and able to fight the groundwar against the Reapers. Most other species are woefully underprepared for a total war. In so much as a ground war is decisive, the Krogan that exist are going to be important. They're able to fight the Council's ground war.

Whether they're willing, however, is what may necessitate the genophage cure.

Well yeah I would also say one problem after the other. Primary target are the Reapers. If the Krogans get the cure afterwards you can still keep an eye open on their population and direction as a race and probably develop a new genophage if necessary. Or just make a military intervention before their numbers are overwhelming. However, better risking a war with the Krogans after the defeat of the Reapers than getting harvested by them.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Not for War against reapers purpose. But for the sake of Krogans, at least make chances of birth-rate a bit higher for less conflicts about females on Tuchanka.

[Dirgegun]

Late to the debate and I haven’t read all the pages just yet, but I just wanted to add my humble thoughts if ya’ll don’t mind. :3

Doesn’t Okeer say something about “1000 in a clutch”? That is a lot of Krogan if their birth rate isn’t checked, and seeing they were thrust into ‘upliftment’ before they were ready as a culture for such things, I think that has the potential to equal another Krogan Rebellions... and given how some of them talk I fear they would target the Turians and Salarians. Especially the Turians. There would be a lot of revenge killing, as is the Krogan way. Even Grunt decides he hates Turians while previously having no connection or care for such things.

I don’t agree with how the genophage works (still born children are not call, dear Salarians) but I do agree that the population has to be checked if what Okeer says is true. This is just for the safety of the other races and the galaxy...

I will admit I’m somewhat biased, though. Turians are my favourite race while Krogan are my second favourite, and I would much rather a galaxy with Turians AND Krogan than one with no Turians and a lot of Krogan.

[AlexXIV]

Tbh the only reasonable Turian I ever met is Garrus and even he has a mean streak. I don't think Turians are 'better' species than Krogan. Krogan, despite all the odds, seem to be doing pretty well (you have to give them credit for their history). So if I had to make a choice I'd rather get rid of the Turians than the Krogans. Of the Council species I only really respect the Salarians and Asari.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 décembre 2011 - 04:34 .

[Dirgegun]

I neversaid they were better, I just personally like the Turian. I especially love Garrus, Lorik and so many other NPC Turians. That's just my personal preference just as others like the Asari best or the Salarian best. I equate it to "I am more interested in Scotish history/culture than I am Australian history/culture." Is one better than the other? Of course not. I just have more interest in one over the other.

Turians are my favourite, but I stil love Krogan too.

I wouldn't be okay with... anything that made me choose Turian while the Krogan get eradicated either, just to clarify. I would rather avoid a situation that can result in the potential genocide of any race, actually.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 30 décembre 2011 - 04:52 .

[Saedius Asicus]

 Yes because there's no way Mordin and his STG team appropriately calibrated for the number of Krogon Shepard kills.  It is possible that all they need to do is clone Sheppard... maybe only twice... to achieve the same effect.

[Eclipse_9990]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You mean the retarded turians who utterly abused the genophage - since the genophage was supposed to be used as a warning to Krogans - yet the turans decided to use it on every krogan world.

 

The genophage wasn't a warning it was a solution.  Where did you get the idea that it was supposed to be a warning? 

Lotion Soronnar wrote... 
Krogan overly agressive? Turian turds are just as bad.

Also the Turians aren't a threat to galactic peace. The Krogan were/are. 

AlexXIV wrote...

Tbh the only reasonable Turian I ever met is Garrus and even he has a mean streak. I don't think Turians are 'better' species than Krogan. Krogan, despite all the odds, seem to be doing pretty well (you have to give them credit for their history). So if I had to make a choice I'd rather get rid of the Turians than the Krogans. Of the Council species I only really respect the Salarians and Asari.

To be honest the only races I really care about are Turians, Asari, and Salarians. Humans are close to them, but only because I am one. If I wasn't human I wouldn't give a ****, hell; I barely even care already.  

But even so; I'll still work just as hard to save humans, Batarians, and even vorcha, as I would to save Asari, Turians, and Salarians. Because its the right thing to do. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 30 décembre 2011 - 10:08 .

[chaosomegas]

we need krogans deal if the husks when we go back to earth they're shocktroops

[Kekkis]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

To be honest the only races I really care about are Turians, Asari, and Salarians. Humans are close to them, but only because I am one. If I wasn't human I wouldn't give a ****, hell; I barely even care already.  

But even so; I'll still work just as hard to save humans, Batarians, and even vorcha, as I would to save Asari, Turians, and Salarians. Because its the right thing to do. 

Until Me3 comes out I´m in vain hope, that it will take combined effort of all races of the galaxy to barely beat those oversized squids. It does not matter who I like or hate.

[Eclipse_9990]

chaosomegas wrote...

we need krogans deal if the husks when we go back to earth they're shocktroops

Yes they are. They are shock troops because of the genophage. If they had been cured all they would be is canon fodder. 

Kekkis wrote...

Until Me3 comes out I´m in vain hope, that it will take combined effort of all races of the galaxy to barely beat those oversized squids. It does not matter who I like or hate.

This is exactly how I see it. 

[chaosomegas]

everyone saying it go take too long breed a new generation krogans but the cure is reward for fighting in reaper war it will help replace lost krogan who died in the war it will give them a future to fight for all krogan right now think the krogans have no future so they do what ever they like it would same on earth if governments came out told everyone world will be destroyed 7 days.

[Slayer299]

chaosomegas wrote...

everyone saying it go take too long breed a new generation krogans but the cure is reward for fighting in reaper war it will help replace lost krogan who died in the war it will give them a future to fight for all krogan right now think the krogans have no future so they do what ever they like it would same on earth if governments came out told everyone world will be destroyed 7 days.

The problem with your comparison with Earth being destroyed in 7 days is that the population of Earth is that the Krogan have been raised fighting from Day 1 their born, Humanity doesn'[t have anything even close to that on Earth. I can see the Krogan being pissed off and wanting to kill something even more than usual, Humans woujld probably be a cross between running around like chickens with their heads cut off while the rest tried to figure out how to get off Earth with as much as possible.

Curing the Genophage willy-nilly is just asking for another war within the present generation, this time with the Krogan.

[AlphaDormante]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It might be necessary as the political cost for convincing the Krogan to join the unified war effort. Not necessary in terms of birthing more Krogan to overwhelm the Reapers.


The Krogan are one of the few species capable and able to fight the groundwar against the Reapers. Most other species are woefully underprepared for a total war. In so much as a ground war is decisive, the Krogan that exist are going to be important. They're able to fight the Council's ground war.

Whether they're willing, however, is what may necessitate the genophage cure.

Ah, gotcha.

Still, frankly...I find it would be incredibly foolish and petty of the krogan to withold help unless we hand them a cure. I can't see in any way how sitting in a corner and refusing to fight would be a viable strategy when the threat of all sentient life ending is looming overhead. Especially when the desire to fight strong, worthy enemies is a staple for their culture.

I can see them demanding the genophage cure as part of post-war negotiations, as compensation for their effort and lost numbers. But demanding it as a pre-requisite to joining the war seems poor form.

[Epic777]

AlphaDormante wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It might be necessary as the political cost for convincing the Krogan to join the unified war effort. Not necessary in terms of birthing more Krogan to overwhelm the Reapers.


The Krogan are one of the few species capable and able to fight the groundwar against the Reapers. Most other species are woefully underprepared for a total war. In so much as a ground war is decisive, the Krogan that exist are going to be important. They're able to fight the Council's ground war.

Whether they're willing, however, is what may necessitate the genophage cure.

Ah, gotcha.

Still, frankly...I find it would be incredibly foolish and petty of the krogan to withold help unless we hand them a cure. I can't see in any way how sitting in a corner and refusing to fight would be a viable strategy when the threat of all sentient life ending is looming overhead. Especially when the desire to fight strong, worthy enemies is a staple for their culture.

I can see them demanding the genophage cure as part of post-war negotiations, as compensation for their effort and lost numbers. But demanding it as a pre-requisite to joining the war seems poor form.

For me, the question is not whether the krogan will fight but will they fight with at the councils side. I am postive despite their warrior culture, the krogan would not be dying to save either Turian or Salarian worlds even if it was the 'end of the world as we know it'.

[Kekkis]

AlphaDormante wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It might be necessary as the political cost for convincing the Krogan to join the unified war effort. Not necessary in terms of birthing more Krogan to overwhelm the Reapers.


The Krogan are one of the few species capable and able to fight the groundwar against the Reapers. Most other species are woefully underprepared for a total war. In so much as a ground war is decisive, the Krogan that exist are going to be important. They're able to fight the Council's ground war.

Whether they're willing, however, is what may necessitate the genophage cure.

Ah, gotcha.

Still, frankly...I find it would be incredibly foolish and petty of the krogan to withold help unless we hand them a cure. I can't see in any way how sitting in a corner and refusing to fight would be a viable strategy when the threat of all sentient life ending is looming overhead. Especially when the desire to fight strong, worthy enemies is a staple for their culture.

I can see them demanding the genophage cure as part of post-war negotiations, as compensation for their effort and lost numbers. But demanding it as a pre-requisite to joining the war seems poor form.

You could use their pride, if you saved Rachni queen. "You didn´t kill all the Rachni and now they are fighting against Reapers, while you are whining". Blue/Red button works too, but Rachni and Krogans are just perfect combination against husks.

[AlphaDormante]

Epic777 wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It might be necessary as the political cost for convincing the Krogan to join the unified war effort. Not necessary in terms of birthing more Krogan to overwhelm the Reapers.


The Krogan are one of the few species capable and able to fight the groundwar against the Reapers. Most other species are woefully underprepared for a total war. In so much as a ground war is decisive, the Krogan that exist are going to be important. They're able to fight the Council's ground war.

Whether they're willing, however, is what may necessitate the genophage cure.

Ah, gotcha.

Still, frankly...I find it would be incredibly foolish and petty of the krogan to withold help unless we hand them a cure. I can't see in any way how sitting in a corner and refusing to fight would be a viable strategy when the threat of all sentient life ending is looming overhead. Especially when the desire to fight strong, worthy enemies is a staple for their culture.

I can see them demanding the genophage cure as part of post-war negotiations, as compensation for their effort and lost numbers. But demanding it as a pre-requisite to joining the war seems poor form.

For me, the question is not whether the krogan will fight but will they fight with at the councils side. I am postive despite their warrior culture, the krogan would not be dying to save either Turian or Salarian worlds even if it was the 'end of the world as we know it'.

If Wreav is leading around the krogans' sorry asses, I agree with you. Wrex...I'm not so sure. He's shown himself capable of working with aliens before, and can even be amiable towards them. He thinks highly of Shepard, seems to have warmed to Garrus, and never withheld any information about Maelon. Whatever grudge he has against the turians and salarians as a whole, it doesn't seem to reach to genocidal levels. I'm very certain that he's capable of seeing the bigger picture.

Of course, then the question becomes: Would he have become enough of a powerful figure among the krogan to command their loyalty?

[KadianK]

No one really considered that it would takes years for them to perfect a cure for the genophage.

Mordin: "Best years of my life."
Mordin: "Still years away from the cure, but closer then starting from scratch."

Considering it took many years to create the genophage in the first place.
The cure that Maelon is working on is worse then doing nothing, so copying the data is basically a miss fire in the first place.

It causes tumors and all that milarky.

We also have to take note that Mordin is on his last decade, meaning he hasn't got long to live anyway.

If we want to cure anything, freaking cure Thane... I support Thane.

[Edit] - Krogan's declined the peace treaty by the way, so it was the only option at the time... Just saying. 

Modifié par KadianK, 31 décembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[AlphaDormante]

KadianK wrote...

No one really considered that it would takes years for them to perfect a cure for the genophage.

Mordin: "Best years of my life."
Mordin: "Still years away from the cure, but closer then starting from scratch."

Considering it took many years to create the genophage in the first place.
The cure that Maelon is working on is worse then doing nothing, so copying the data is basically a miss fire in the first place.

Actually, Mordin helped modify the genophage, which was in his own words much more difficult than simply making it. So reversing the process shouldn't take quite as long.

Your point still stands, though. However much time has been shaved off the process, Mordin DID say "years". And we don't have years.

[Palidane]

There seems to be a bunch of simultaeneous arguements going on here, so I'll try to adress them individually.

No, I don't believe the Genophage was a war crime. What else were they supposed to do? It was Genophage or roll over and die. However, I do think that making them stillborn was the absolute worst way of doing it, and I expect a damn good reason why they couldn't have done it some other way.

I don't think the Krogan deserve to get cured. People say "Oh, it was the Genophage that made them so mercenary, and if it was cured, they'd all cool off," Sorry, I don't buy it. The codex basically says that the psychology of the krogan went from "Hey, I'm gonna knock some heads, raise an army, and then go invade somewhere and rule it for the lulz" to "I'm gonna find some guy who needs heads knocked, knock some heads, and then get paid!" I don't think magically giving them a super birth rate is going to result in any thing but war.

No one seems to remember this, but Mordin says the the STG Simulations all showed that if the krogan overcame the Genophage, the Krogan would get out of hand and start bullying people, and the Hierarchy and Systems Alliance would band together and kill them all. The updated Genophage was protecting the krogan from themselves.

So what should we do?

AlphaDormante wrote...

I think introducing the genophage cure as it is would completely unravel all of the work Wrex is doing to unify the krogan. Clans would have much less need for protection, cooperation, diplomacy - given their nature, I can't imagine them having much incentive for unification if they have the means to endlessly bolster their numbers on their own. Maybe later down the line, if the krogan ever develop into a less violent culture, a cure could be dispatched. I believe doing so now would be a recipe for disaster. Let Wrex handle his own people for now.

Unless Wreav is in charge...in which case everything's going to ****** anyway.

This. So much this. I think the best thing to do is to pass along money and materials to Wrex and try to give him a leg up over all the other clans. And hey, they're still evolving. If Wrex takes over and the krogan behave themselves, maybe it won't be neccessary to update the Genophage in a few hundred years.

I also don't think any we should make any hasty action for fear of the reapers. For one, reapers are gigantic floating space ships, and no amount of ground troops are going to bring one down. Yes, they're sending down all their abominations, but the real fight is in space, and I will take the Hierarchy's Navy over the Krogan anyday. For two, even if we did cure it, we wouldn't instantly get a ready made army of krogan, just a lot of babies. And if "You and every person you have ever met, seen, or heard of is GOING TO DIE!" doesn't work, then I don't see why "You can have kids," would do anything.

Modifié par Palidane, 31 décembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

 No, but they shouldn't be left living like this either. A more permanent solution would be better.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 31 décembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[ediskrad327]

curing could have long term problems, more like adapting it would be better

[Bleachrude]

 The only question I have is, "do the krogans feel ANY responsibility for what happened?"

I never get the impression that krogans think their ancesotrs were in the wrong for being well dicks to everyone else so I'm a little leery about giving a cure to a people who think they were totally innocent in what happened to them...

I mean, when the turians actually attacked legitimate military krogan warbands, the krogans responded by literally wiping out the biospere of 3 entire turian planets and attacks against others..Do the krogans thing this was right?

Modifié par Bleachrude, 31 décembre 2011 - 05:11 .

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

The best thing I can think of doing is reworking the genophage to allow an increased birth rate, that way they don't die off as a species but they don't overtake the galaxy either.

[Eclipse_9990]

Bleachrude wrote...

 The only question I have is, "do the krogans feel ANY responsibility for what happened?"

I never get the impression that krogans think their ancesotrs were in the wrong for being well dicks to everyone else so I'm a little leery about giving a cure to a people who think they were totally innocent in what happened to them...

I mean, when the turians actually attacked legitimate military krogan warbands, the krogans responded by literally wiping out the biospere of 3 entire turian planets and attacks against others..Do the krogans thing this was right?

Woah! Woah! This happened!? Source? If this is so then I feel even less pity for the Krogans. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 31 décembre 2011 - 05:47 .