905 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Ravensword wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Andorfiend wrote..

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that evolution is poor science?

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that most of the advanced species in the ME universe have evolved towards, out of SHEER AND UTTER CHANCE, a general humanoid form.  That's a pretty daft thing.

Every piece of sci-fi space opera out there.

Long ago, in a galaxy far far far away.....

[MELTOR13]

AwesomeName wrote...

Andorfiend wrote..

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that evolution is poor science?

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that most of the advanced species in the ME universe have evolved towards, out of SHEER AND UTTER CHANCE, a general humanoid form.  That's a pretty daft thing.

It took humans roughly a couple MILLION years to achieve what we are now. In the MEverse, it takes species 50,000 years to achieve sentience and gain access to space flight, FTL, the Citadel, etc. That IS poor science.

[Phaedon]

@Andorfield

If I was a moron who didn't belive in evolution, do you think that I would specifically point out the bastardization of it that is the evolution of the ME's species?

[hawat333]

I like them both, it's completely situational.
When it's only the air that needs filtering, a breathing mask is nice and easy, and it doesn't impair your vision as much.
When it's pressure or when it's something in the air that irritates your skin, then use the helmets.
It would be my approach if I had a call in this specific matter.

[mineralica]

Phaedon wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

It's not just the breathing masks. They're merely a symptom of another issue and not directly the problem at all. Breathing masks are merely a wound on Mass Effect, but they're not the cause of the damage.

And it doesn't matter how good the writing, charaterisation, romances or any other such factors are if the setting you're using doesn't even hold water in the first place. You can have a masterpiece from a technical standpoint, but if it's filled with massive logic holes that crack at the very fabric of the heart of the story itself, it's all for nought.

Simply put: it doesn't matter how well made the rest of the table is if the legs can't hold it up.

To me I got into Mass Effect originally because it was an experience more than a game and because it was a well thought out, tight, sci-fi universe I could really sink my teeth into.

Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)



If you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

In my headcanon Eezo is more exotic and more stable version of positronium. Depending on how exotic it is, it may possibly affect gravitation field.

[Andorfiend]

AwesomeName wrote...

Andorfiend wrote..

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that evolution is poor science?

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that most of the advanced species in the ME universe have evolved towards, out of SHEER AND UTTER CHANCE, a general humanoid form.  That's a pretty daft thing.

Elcor. Hanar. Shifty-looking cow.

*shrug* I've seen some pretty good arguments that any technical species will be humanoid. You need hands. You need eyes. You need to be large enough to work with usefull amounts of materials. You need to be small enough to be capable of fine manipulation. Your eyes need to be able to see, and focus on what your hands are doing.

Could you have all that and be centauroid? Sure. In fact the cow that picked your pocket was. Could you have all that and have radial symetry? Probably? Radial symetry doesn't seem to have worked all that well in the evolutionary arms race here, but maybe somewhere else it could. But from our one sample planet with advanced life bilateral symetry with 4 primary limbs seems to be the winning format.

Even if Dolphins were a thousand times smarter than us they could never become a technical species without evolving in a humanoid direction.

So yeah, having technical species as different as the Krogan and the Asari still having the same general body structure works for me. Even if I do like to give Star Trek grief for the 'aliens with lumpy foreheads' thing.

[Phaedon]

Positronium or neutronium are definitely not elements.

[Xeranx]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yeah unfortunetly I did  but I would say I wasn't dissappoint that was more just analaysis after the fact  and seeing would could be done better...  Like after your team wins... winning is good but you go back the film watch tape  and see what needs improvement. .. to make a sport analogy.


I think  one has to take  the medium which the story is being told into account.   Mass Effect is a video game as visiual medium and there  are sublty things  in  communcation between to two characters, facial epressions etc that  hold more wieght  and create more impact that would  you lose when everyone face is covered with a helmet.

That's really not an excuse or reason since television and movies are a visual medium as well.  There are many instances where a character or characters are covered up and the acting (through voice) has to come through. 

Jennifer Hale is a prime example.  She gave an interview where she was asked about her craft.  She keeps in mind various attributes to a voice she's doing.  When someone asks her to voice Shepard getting hit she asks for specifcs such as where on the body is Shepard taking damage because there's a sound for everything.

In ME2, remembering the scene with Miranda after saving her sister, she stands with her back to the camera (her back not her posterior) and says something.  I'm sure her face must be contorting into some form for the emotion that her VA is conveying, but we don't need to see it because the scene takes precedence to whatever facial expression might be there. The same should be exhibited in any part of the game that requires a helmet because it lends credibility to the world.  If you're going to disregard that aspect then it's much better to reconstruct the scene so that face masks are believable or reconstruct the scene so that face masks are unneeded.

Anytime you decide to do something contrary to what you've previously established without a sound reason, you undermine your credibility and that of the subject you want to show.  If you present yourself as a steadfast individual people will assume such until you do something out of character with your initial portrayal. If you have a good reason for that OOC action and can explain it people can understand and move on.  Same thing goes with anything put out for public consumption.  It's called being true to your work.

[goofyomnivore]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm personally far more annoyed by the Mary Sue genes the humans have in Mass Effect. Being more diverse and all that crap.

I bet you lose sleep over the Asari then.

[Garrus Mmkay]

Phaedon pwning as usual

[nitefyre410]

Xeranx wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yeah unfortunetly I did  but I would say I wasn't dissappoint that was more just analaysis after the fact  and seeing would could be done better...  Like after your team wins... winning is good but you go back the film watch tape  and see what needs improvement. .. to make a sport analogy.


I think  one has to take  the medium which the story is being told into account.   Mass Effect is a video game as visiual medium and there  are sublty things  in  communcation between to two characters, facial epressions etc that  hold more wieght  and create more impact that would  you lose when everyone face is covered with a helmet.

That's really not an excuse or reason since television and movies are a visual medium as well.  There are many instances where a character or characters are covered up and the acting (through voice) has to come through. 

Jennifer Hale is a prime example.  She gave an interview where she was asked about her craft.  She keeps in mind various attributes to a voice she's doing.  When someone asks her to voice Shepard getting hit she asks for specifcs such as where on the body is Shepard taking damage because there's a sound for everything.

In ME2, remembering the scene with Miranda after saving her sister, she stands with her back to the camera (her back not her posterior) and says something.  I'm sure her face must be contorting into some form for the emotion that her VA is conveying, but we don't need to see it because the scene takes precedence to whatever facial expression might be there. The same should be exhibited in any part of the game that requires a helmet because it lends credibility to the world.  If you're going to disregard that aspect then it's much better to reconstruct the scene so that face masks are believable or reconstruct the scene so that face masks are unneeded.

Anytime you decide to do something contrary to what you've previously established without a sound reason, you undermine your credibility and that of the subject you want to show.  If you present yourself as a steadfast individual people will assume such until you do something out of character with your initial portrayal. If you have a good reason for that OOC action and can explain it people can understand and move on.  Same thing goes with anything put out for public consumption.  It's called being true to your work.

Contrary to reason  and not being true  and when Bioware ever say that in the creation of mass effect that it was to be anything but a Space Opera. They said nothing about hard scifi story from the start. I can accept that you just don't like the breathing mask  that fine but this whole  notion that  Bioware is something not being true to their visions between ME 1 and ME 2 is for a lack of a better term... bull****.. Though I have to say that is some well thought out BS and nicely put but still I have to throw down the BS card on that.   Just in the context of this discussion- over all  you do have a point but Biowere has not even come close too that... especially not  with breathing masks topic.

The reason is Bioware has never set out to make  something that nothing more  more than Space Opera Scifi. This was never meant to be something along the lines of a 2001  which i get the feeling that alot people(Not you) but a lot poeple are trying to make Mass Effect to be the  2001 of Videos Games and not something along the lines of say Star Wars which is what Bioware set to make from the start.   Now if all of suddenly they went and wanted  to go  what we call serious scifi(the serious being completely subjective) from what they did in  Mass Effect 1 then your  point is valid but  that kind of Shift involves more than a  cosmetic change and the removely of helmets. 


One to the other point... of we taking in the  condisration sound but then scene losses almost its impact if you don't scene the tears and the fient smile on her face because those things are what drive it.  Could mute  the voice acting and just have the music  and facail expressions with the text dialogue and still have a impacting scene.  Not as impacting with you have both but more impacting  than if you just have sound.

[The Spamming Troll]

can i go a little off topic and complain about how dumb i think enemy protections are?

or is that a bad idea?

[JaegerBane]

MELTOR13 wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Andorfiend wrote..

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that evolution is poor science?

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that most of the advanced species in the ME universe have evolved towards, out of SHEER AND UTTER CHANCE, a general humanoid form.  That's a pretty daft thing.

It took humans roughly a couple MILLION years to achieve what we are now. In the MEverse, it takes species 50,000 years to achieve sentience and gain access to space flight, FTL, the Citadel, etc. That IS poor science.

I think you need to check your facts. The 50,000 year figure is to do with the cycles the Reapers go through, periodically waking up and checking up on the rough advancement of organics. It has nothing to do with the specific amount of time needed for a species to go from being single-celled to piloting starships. That amount of time is different for all species and is irrelevant to the Reaper's MO, since they don't care about organics that aren't advanced enough to be of concern.

Hell, according to the background ME lore, the Reapers have been trying to kick into motion the current cycle of extinction since the 1800s - the Rachni War etc.

[Candidate 88766]

Terror_K wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

In theory, could a mass effect field hold an atmosphere?

I know kinetic barriers can't, but an atmosphere is made up of mass and so in theory could be held in place by mass effect fields. this would explain why the crew can breath on the Derelict Reaper, and why the atmosphere on the Citadel extends only a short way above the wards - if it was just centrifugal force then the atmosphere would 'spill' over the sides of the ward arms, so something must be holding it.

I should add that I know a suit is too weak to keep an atmosphere around itself, I'm just suggesting why it is unlikely that either the Derelict Reaper or the Collector Base were devoid of atmosphere.

Regarding The Citadel, from the Codex:-

The Wards are open-topped, with skyscrapers rising from the superstructure. Towers are sealed against vacuum, as the breathable atmosphere envelope is only maintained to a height of about seven meters. The atmosphere is contained by the centrifugal force of rotation and a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields.

So essentially the mass effect fields keep in the dense gas, and it's the gas along with the rotation that maintain the consistency of the atmosphere within, not the mass effect fields themselves directly.

Oh okay, that makes sense. Didn't notice that last couple of lines when I looked it up.

[Bleachrude]

 re: Mohs scale of science fiction

I hate using tvtropes but frankly, it DOES have its uses...Science fiction is a scale ranging from the "Hard" to the "Jello". On the Mohs scale, I've always seen Mass Effect ranging from a high 3 to a mid 4.

What trips people up I think is that, especially with EEZO, Bioware went with Minovsky Physics whereas most other space opera uses the Green Rock approach (what exactly can't naquadria do?) to tech....

[nitefyre410]

Bleachrude wrote...

 re: Mohs scale of science fiction

I hate using tvtropes but frankly, it DOES have its uses...Science fiction is a scale ranging from the "Hard" to the "Jello". On the Mohs scale, I've always seen Mass Effect ranging from a high 3 to a mid 4.

What trips people up I think is that, especially with EEZO, Bioware went with Minovsky Physics whereas most other space opera uses the Green Rock approach (what exactly can't naquadria do?) to tech....

Tropes are good things when used properly  and in the right does.... I have seen  Tvtropes miss used alot ... this is one of the  instance where it was not. 

[Il Divo]

Andorfiend wrote...

Why exactly is being unable to completely disconnect our brains "pathetic?"

If you were fighting Saren and suddenly Peter Pan flew out of freaking nowhere on a rocket powered Armadillo and blew up Soverign with Stormbringer and the One Ring, you woud be kind of pissed, right? This is Mass Effect, not Kingdom Hearts.

Some of us have a slightly lower threshold for having our Suspension of Disbelief revoked. It comes from knowing things, and thinking about them.

Very true, but also a bit of an overexaggeration. People can enjoy a  series for any number of reasons, which means that any time the developers attempt to change something, it may or may not affect what you consider "crucial" to the setting. I personally don't place hardsuits under the crucial category for Mass Effect. I see it as much closer to Star Wars, with fake science thrown on top for fun. On the other hand, Peter Pan swooping in to kill Saren would unravel the plot a great deal. The two comparisons aren't really equivalent in terms of how they affect the series. Deux Ex Machina is far worse, in my opinion.  

[Xeranx]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Contrary to reason  and not being true  and when Bioware ever say that in the creation of mass effect that it was to be anything but a Space Opera. They said nothing about hard scifi story from the start. I can accept that you just don't like the breathing mask  that fine but this whole  notion that  Bioware is something not being true to their visions between ME 1 and ME 2 is for a lack of a better term... bull****.. Though I have to say that is some well thought out BS and nicely put but still I have to throw down the BS card on that.   Just in the context of this discussion- over all  you do have a point but Biowere has not even come close too that... especially not  with breathing masks topic.

The reason is Bioware has never set out to make  something that nothing more  more than Space Opera Scifi. This was never meant to be something along the lines of a 2001  which i get the feeling that alot people(Not you) but a lot poeple are trying to make Mass Effect to be the  2001 of Videos Games and not something along the lines of say Star Wars which is what Bioware set to make from the start.   Now if all of suddenly they went and wanted  to go  what we call serious scifi(the serious being completely subjective) from what they did in  Mass Effect 1 then your  point is valid but  that kind of Shift involves more than a  cosmetic change and the removely of helmets. 


One to the other point... of we taking in the  condisration sound but then scene losses almost its impact if you don't scene the tears and the fient smile on her face because those things are what drive it.  Could mute  the voice acting and just have the music  and facail expressions with the text dialogue and still have a impacting scene.  Not as impacting with you have both but more impacting  than if you just have sound.

If Bioware never setting out to make more than a space opera means that it shouldn't be taken seriously (I don't mean like a heart attack, but as a piece of fiction) then I have to wonder what I spent money on.  It's kind of like buying a pet rock when a chia pet can give you more bang for your buck.

If Bioware never set out to put out a world where you could imagine the relations among the people that live there then they shouldn't have name dropped to try to give it some sort of credibility.  You don't say ME2 is our ESB because then you're offering a direct comparison to something that is critically acclaimed.  That would be like me saying I could give a similar performance to Don Cheadle or Denzel Washington, but at the same time expecting people to not judge me if I miss the mark in their eyes.  It's ridiculous.  If I have no intention of being serious about what I'm doing, then I have no business comparing my work to other things or myself to other people who have received praise in the past and still get talked up at various times.  I shouldn't even be able to think along that line.  I may as well be like M. Night Shyamalan after his head swelled.

I should certainly not even talk about taking over the world when I get nary a mention in anything that's mainstream which is something WoW does even to this day.  I mean think about the fact that Blizzard adopted the Chuck Norris meme and actually got him in a commercial giving that meme credence.  "There are 10 million people in World of Warcraft, because Chuck Norris allows them to live."  It's completely cheesy, but ask yourself why they feel they can do that.

[Einz360]

ME1 had a much better sense of space and epicness than ME2... but oh well...

[outlaw1109]

Phaedon wrote...
Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)



If you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

Fire/explosions in space.....I mean, if you have enough sense to say that ME fields can't protect against vacuum, you probably have enough sense to realize that some of the cinematic explosions in this game series are highly unrealistic.  Yet, I haven't seen anyone complain about that.....(google it, I don't feel like providing a source).

Personally, seeing a breathing mask on biotic squaddies just made me assume that there was some sort of ME field there.....Kasumi was the only immersion breaker for me, but her head is mostly covered, so I just dealt with it. 

[nitefyre410]

Il Divo wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Why exactly is being unable to completely disconnect our brains "pathetic?"

If you were fighting Saren and suddenly Peter Pan flew out of freaking nowhere on a rocket powered Armadillo and blew up Soverign with Stormbringer and the One Ring, you woud be kind of pissed, right? This is Mass Effect, not Kingdom Hearts.

Some of us have a slightly lower threshold for having our Suspension of Disbelief revoked. It comes from knowing things, and thinking about them.

Very true, but also a bit of an overexaggeration. People can enjoy a  series for any number of reasons, which means that any time the developers attempt to change something, it may or may not affect what you consider "crucial" to the setting. I personally don't place hardsuits under the crucial category for Mass Effect. I see it as much closer to Star Wars, with fake science thrown on top for fun. On the other hand, Peter Pan swooping in to kill Saren would unravel the plot a great deal. The two comparisons aren't really equivalent in terms of how they affect the series. Deux Ex Machina is far worse, in my opinion.  

Though in some case if used properly you can get away with a Deus Ex Machina but  Diablo Ex Machine is usually the greater of the two evils. 

Mass Effect far more like Star Wars than anything and thats fine... that what is was meant to be. 

Now to the bold... knowing things and thinking is good thing  and believe me of us  that oppose the hysteria of breathe mask   both know things and think about more than what  you make think and many always may  know enough to know  when they are thinking too much.

[argonian persona]

Space Helmets = corny

[Stalker]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)



If you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

Fire/explosions in space.....I mean, if you have enough sense to say that ME fields can't protect against vacuum, you probably have enough sense to realize that some of the cinematic explosions in this game series are highly unrealistic.  Yet, I haven't seen anyone complain about that.....(google it, I don't feel like providing a source).

Personally, seeing a breathing mask on biotic squaddies just made me assume that there was some sort of ME field there.....Kasumi was the only immersion breaker for me, but her head is mostly covered, so I just dealt with it. 

Actually,explosions are possible in space, the same as huge fireballs are. Just not the explosion sound. But let's not bring up that theme, this will probably lead us into 10 more pages of discussion.

Anyway, I don't recognize a single moment in the ME2 campaign where a vacuum protected suit would have been nessesary. Someone may want to give me an example?