905 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...
There was no established reason to wearing armor and helmets. At least, nothing beyond what any person could extrapolate in terms of what purpose armor and helmets serve. The codex entry just outlines exactly what anyone could imagine on their own. And I already covered that under the heading of "plot armor".

That's why I'm emphasizing how consistency is over-rated. Consistency only really matters if you care what the developers are being consistent about. If you don't read the codex, you probably won't care about all the different ways which Mass Efffect (both 1 and 2) go against the lore within cut-scenes. In my case, armor was only ever an aesthetic issue, since characters die only when the narrative wants them to. That's really its only relevance to the series. No narrative or character element really hinges on armor vs. breath masks.

But I do read the codex.  I do care about the lore.  So do others, given how long this thread has gotten in less than a day.   I find world-building to be an incredibly important element in creating a universe for stories.  Both science fiction and fantasy.  To just decide to change it for nothing more than cosmetic reasons is just mind boggling.

Far from it. It's merely a plot hole. Han Solo and Leia inevitably explore an asteroid using only breather masks. I didn't assume that in the Star Wars Universe, vacuums don't exist; I assumed (for whatever reason) the director chose to forget the fact that you can't go wandering through space in normal clothing. Likewise with how Firefly often employs the "silence in space" trope, but then deviates back into rule of cool. 

Likewise with how tv shows like Mythbusters make a living by taking apart all the various misconceptions people have about how "science" works. In any universe where they contradict the laws of physics, I don't assume that's simply how things work, I assume the writers screwed up or are not aware of scientific rules.

But that's just it, these "rules" worked one way in one game, and got tossed out the next.  It's not like Han and Leia investgated an asteroid in Episode IV in a full vacuum suit and just a breather in Episode V.  The rules changed mid stream and we weren't even given a halfhearted "thermal clips" explanation.

That's why I find it so easy to distance myself from ME2 switching over to breath masks; plot-wise, armor had absolutely no function and doesn't change pretty much anything about how I view the story. It's a completely different example than suggesting Peter Pan magically appearing, which require all the breaches of breath masks, in addition to snapping the plot/internal logic in half which are necessary to making the world work.

I'm rather suprised at this attitude.  You're usually a big fan of the "iconic look" yet this changes looks from game to game.

Jarring? Sure. But that actually proves my point regarding how relative consistency is. I care about character consistency much, much more than I care about constant application of heavy armor and helmets, which has only every been a  style issue. It's why I'm still not entirely okay with Ashley's ME3 outfit; it's technically "armor", but substantially different from anything I would have expected her to wear after ME1, far from the heavy armor she often describes.

A bit OT, but have you seen the new screenshot of her?  It's essentially blue N7 armor.  Almost exactly how I'd envision her

[Iakus]

Arcian wrote...

Seriously, do you all have aspergers or something?

Can't help but feel the love here /sarcasm

But to answer your question:  No, I'm just not as easily entertained as some. 

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

But I do read the codex.  I do care about the lore.  So do others, given how long this thread has gotten in less than a day.   I find world-building to be an incredibly important element in creating a universe for stories.  Both science fiction and fantasy.  To just decide to change it for nothing more than cosmetic reasons is just mind boggling.

And I'm not denying that it should be a problem for some. What I am stressing however is that some lore is more important than others, to the point where some changes can be seen as huge, other aspects as entirely flavor-oriented

If Bioware suddenly rewrote how Biotics worked to allow for teleportation, invisibility, and mind control, I'm going to take issue. Why? Well, biotics is a pretty critical aspect in terms of how the world functions, and everything is literally based around it. Likewise if Asari suddenly became human, which would have very bad implications for all the previus plot, character, and setting establishments.

Essentially, I view lore as being "tiered". The most necessary elements are related to plot and character development. Then comes general dialogue. Codex entires always struck me as the "forgettable" lore, the kind of stuff which is fun to read, but doesn't hold much substance in how the setting plays out. Obviously it's not a perfect system, because people consider different aspects of lore "important". I like the lore surrounding eezo, so I'm more particular to changes in how it works (Vanguard charge).

I think consistency is better, only because it means that it's less likely that individuals experiencing a story will notice a gap in the logic train. But since those gaps are inevitable, I'd rather they be small, which is how I conceive of armor and helmets, especially compared to other actual and potential violations of the lore. It didn't change anything I consider critical to my perception of the universe. It was a minor gap in logic that characters like Jack and Miranda didn't realize the importance of armor, but one I've seen so many times before.

But that's just it, these "rules" worked one way in one game, and got tossed out the next.  It's not like Han and Leia investgated an asteroid in Episode IV in a full vacuum suit and just a breather in Episode V.  The rules changed mid stream and we weren't even given a halfhearted "thermal clips" explanation.

Ah, but you've already committed to a certain outlook by saying that the rules changed. When we saw Han and Leia investigating that asteroid, were we supposed to assume in Star Wars that vacuums don't exist? I thought the opposite, that they existed but Lucas had made a momentary oversight.

That's how I view the ME2 breath masks. Vacuums are "selectively deadly", killing characters when the writers decide it's time for them to die. It's similar to my example before of how in any number of stories dozens of mook soldiers wearing heavy armor get slaughtered, while the important characters can take the same deadly blows in stride.

I'm rather suprised at this attitude.  You're usually a big fan of the "iconic look" yet this changes looks from game to game.

I don't view iconic as mutually exclusive from armor. It's just that I take less issue with characters who don't wear armor. I can accept the ME2 cast without armor, since they are original characters. What I'd rather not see is Bioware rewriting ME1 cast members to not wear armor, particularly if armor is a pretty critical aspect of their personality (as in the case of Ashley). Ashley didn't have an iconic look but an iconic personality, of which armor was a necessary part.

A bit OT, but have you seen the new screenshot of her?  It's essentially blue N7 armor.  Almost exactly how I'd envision her

I have, and it works pretty well. Now I'm still holding out hope that I'll be able to give her a ponytail again.

[Mallissin]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Posted this in the last thread posting here too.

I for one, am really greatful that a company can create a game so great that the only thing people have left to ***** about is minor trivial crap like breathing masks.

The silver lining folks, it's always there.

Indeed. Kudos to Bioware.



Although, I'd still prefer to have a completely transparent faceplate for helmets so that we can see the characters' faces underneath, and breathing masks do block too much of their faces, IMHO.




I mean wouldn't it be cool to have Strong, Transparent, Multifunctional, Carbon Nanotube Sheets that are as strong as steel making up that faceplate?

Edit: found a more detailed summary for the link

You know what would be horrible in helmets?

SNEEZING!

[SpiderFan1217]

Mesina2 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Posted this in the last thread posting here too.

I for one, am really greatful that a company can create a game so great that the only thing people have left to ***** about is minor trivial crap like breathing masks.

The silver lining folks, it's always there.

I like you.

I love him.

  I feel so loved. 

EDIT: Typo.

Modifié par SpiderFan1217, 29 décembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[Halfdan The Menace]

It's not that bad...

[BatmanPWNS]

Screw logic and science. Lets just say everything happens in the game because of the Biotic God.

[krossbow]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Screw logic and science. Lets just say everything happens in the game because of the Biotic God.

You rang?

Modifié par krossbow, 29 décembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Andorfiend]

Mallissin wrote...

You know what would be horrible in helmets?

SNEEZING!

Puking is worse. No one has yet built a space suit you can survive puking in.

[TheRealJayDee]

iakus wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Anytime you decide to do something contrary to what you've previously established without a sound reason, you undermine your credibility and that of the subject you want to show.  If you present yourself as a steadfast individual people will assume such until you do something out of character with your initial portrayal. If you have a good reason for that OOC action and can explain it people can understand and move on.  Same thing goes with anything put out for public consumption.  It's called being true to your work.

THis needs to seriously be printed out and distributed to all Bioware staff.  Both Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

[Praetor Knight]

Well I figure that there is much that can be done to allow for characters' faces to be visible and have full helmets, while fitting their personalities.

So here are a few more options I've googled to share here.

[100k]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Although, I'd still prefer to have a completely transparent faceplate for helmets so that we can see the characters' faces underneath, and breathing masks do block too much of their faces, IMHO.




I mean wouldn't it be cool to have Strong, Transparent, Multifunctional, Carbon Nanotube Sheets that are as strong as steel making up that faceplate?

Edit: found a more detailed summary for the link

Words can't describe how logical (and thus probably absent in game) this is.

Modifié par 100k, 29 décembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[JunMadine]

Well I am sure there will be characters that use helmets and others that use masks. Try to work around missions by using helmeted characters for vacuum.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...
And I'm not denying that it should be a problem for some. What I am stressing however is that some lore is more important than others, to the point where some changes can be seen as huge, other aspects as entirely flavor-oriented

If Bioware suddenly rewrote how Biotics worked to allow for teleportation, invisibility, and mind control, I'm going to take issue. Why? Well, biotics is a pretty critical aspect in terms of how the world functions, and everything is literally based around it. Likewise if Asari suddenly became human, which would have very bad implications for all the previus plot, character, and setting establishments.

Essentially, I view lore as being "tiered". The most necessary elements are related to plot and character development. Then comes general dialogue. Codex entires always struck me as the "forgettable" lore, the kind of stuff which is fun to read, but doesn't hold much substance in how the setting plays out. Obviously it's not a perfect system, because people consider different aspects of lore "important". I like the lore surrounding eezo, so I'm more particular to changes in how it works (Vanguard charge).

Lore is lore.  It's what should make a game consistent to begin with.  Lore wise there is no reason why an asari should have a hard time surviving a blizzard on Noveria but can get along fine in a storm on Hagalaz.

I think consistency is better, only because it means that it's less likely that individuals experiencing a story will notice a gap in the logic train. But since those gaps are inevitable, I'd rather they be small, which is how I conceive of armor and helmets, especially compared to other actual and potential violations of the lore. It didn't change anything I consider critical to my perception of the universe. It was a minor gap in logic that characters like Jack and Miranda didn't realize the importance of armor, but one I've seen so many times before.

If a game adhers to its lore then it is consistent.  "Make your rules, then abide by them" Like I said, I'd have less problems with this if they never pretended that armor and helmets mattered.  But they did.  And then ditched it.

And Jack and Miranda's lack of armor and helmets become all the more obvious when wandering around places like the Migrant Fleet, Haestrom, and the Heretic Station because the game draws attention to it being enviromentally unfriendly to humans.  The logic becomes considerably more than a minor gap.

Ah, but you've already committed to a certain outlook by saying that the rules changed. When we saw Han and Leia investigating that asteroid, were we supposed to assume in Star Wars that vacuums don't exist? I thought the opposite, that they existed but Lucas had made a momentary oversight.

That's how I view the ME2 breath masks. Vacuums are "selectively deadly", killing characters when the writers decide it's time for them to die. It's similar to my example before of how in any number of stories dozens of mook soldiers wearing heavy armor get slaughtered, while the important characters can take the same deadly blows in stride.

I don't know what "the rules" were in the Star Wars universe regarding vacuum prior to ESB.  It hadn't been addressed at that point.  

The difference here is that the Mass Effect universe has already acknowledged that vacuum exists.  Remember the walk up the side of the Citadel?  How well do you think that would have gone with Jack and Miranda as teammates? Same with the lunar base.  Noveria, and any number of UNC missions.  Enviromental hazards exist. Shepard died at the start of ME2 due at least in part to a suit rupture.  That's a key moment in the trilogy.  Then they pretty much forget about that danger until Arrival.  

This is not overlooking a detail, or a momentary oversight.  This is is willfull disregard. within its own narrative.  

Modifié par iakus, 29 décembre 2011 - 11:31 .

[ODST 5723]

There is no evidence beyond the use of the breather helmet in that the walk up the CItadel occurred in a vacuum. It occurred in zero or near zero gravity.  Watch the glass bust out and then flow in totally different direction without anything acting on it. The lack of vacuum is made even more clear by the lack of any form of noticeable decompression when that piece of Sovereign breached the tower that elevator led to, yet there are people including Anderson walking around w/out any form of armor, helmet or breathing masks. The gravity remains completely intact.  The air is breathable.  There is fire.  Everything seems stable.

So it is implied on one hand but not on the other?

Where is the consistency there? What's the explanation?  Oh, low oxygen atmosphere... I guess a breather mask would have been sufficient.  Still inconsistent.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 29 décembre 2011 - 11:52 .

[Kakistos_]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

But I do read the codex.  I do care about the lore.  So do others, given how long this thread has gotten in less than a day.   I find world-building to be an incredibly important element in creating a universe for stories.  Both science fiction and fantasy.  To just decide to change it for nothing more than cosmetic reasons is just mind boggling.

And I'm not denying that it should be a problem for some. What I am stressing however is that some lore is more important than others, to the point where some changes can be seen as huge, other aspects as entirely flavor-oriented

If Bioware suddenly rewrote how Biotics worked to allow for teleportation, invisibility, and mind control, I'm going to take issue. Why? Well, biotics is a pretty critical aspect in terms of how the world functions, and everything is literally based around it. Likewise if Asari suddenly became human, which would have very bad implications for all the previus plot, character, and setting establishments.

Essentially, I view lore as being "tiered". The most necessary elements are related to plot and character development. Then comes general dialogue. Codex entires always struck me as the "forgettable" lore, the kind of stuff which is fun to read, but doesn't hold much substance in how the setting plays out. Obviously it's not a perfect system, because people consider different aspects of lore "important". I like the lore surrounding eezo, so I'm more particular to changes in how it works (Vanguard charge).

I think consistency is better, only because it means that it's less likely that individuals experiencing a story will notice a gap in the logic train. But since those gaps are inevitable, I'd rather they be small, which is how I conceive of armor and helmets, especially compared to other actual and potential violations of the lore. It didn't change anything I consider critical to my perception of the universe. It was a minor gap in logic that characters like Jack and Miranda didn't realize the importance of armor, but one I've seen so many times before.

But that's just it, these "rules" worked one way in one game, and got tossed out the next.  It's not like Han and Leia investgated an asteroid in Episode IV in a full vacuum suit and just a breather in Episode V.  The rules changed mid stream and we weren't even given a halfhearted "thermal clips" explanation.

Ah, but you've already committed to a certain outlook by saying that the rules changed. When we saw Han and Leia investigating that asteroid, were we supposed to assume in Star Wars that vacuums don't exist? I thought the opposite, that they existed but Lucas had made a momentary oversight.

That's how I view the ME2 breath masks. Vacuums are "selectively deadly", killing characters when the writers decide it's time for them to die. It's similar to my example before of how in any number of stories dozens of mook soldiers wearing heavy armor get slaughtered, while the important characters can take the same deadly blows in stride.

I'm rather suprised at this attitude.  You're usually a big fan of the "iconic look" yet this changes looks from game to game.

I don't view iconic as mutually exclusive from armor. It's just that I take less issue with characters who don't wear armor. I can accept the ME2 cast without armor, since they are original characters. What I'd rather not see is Bioware rewriting ME1 cast members to not wear armor, particularly if armor is a pretty critical aspect of their personality (as in the case of Ashley). Ashley didn't have an iconic look but an iconic personality, of which armor was a necessary part.

A bit OT, but have you seen the new screenshot of her?  It's essentially blue N7 armor.  Almost exactly how I'd envision her

I have, and it works pretty well. Now I'm still holding out hope that I'll be able to give her a ponytail again.

This is a side note question of curiosity about "If Bioware suddenly rewrote how Biotics worked to allow for
teleportation, invisibility, and mind control, I'm going to take issue." I'm not trolling I'm genuinely curious about your opinion of the Reave and Dominate Powers in ME2 with regards to your post.

[Nightwriter]

ODST 5723 wrote...

There is no evidence beyond the use of the breather helmet in that the walk up the CItadel occurred in a vacuum. It occurred in zero or near zero gravity.  Watch the glass bust out and then flow in totally different direction without anything acting on it. The lack of vacuum is made even more clear by the lack of any form of noticeable decompression when that piece of Sovereign breached the tower that elevator led to, yet there are people including Anderson walking around w/out any form of armor, helmet or breathing masks. The gravity remains completely intact.  The air is breathable.  There is fire.  Everything seems stable.

So it is implied on one hand but not on the other?

Where is the consistency there? What's the explanation?  Oh, low oxygen atmosphere... I guess a breather mask would have been sufficient.  Still inconsistent.

Perhaps barriers automatically activate in the event of such breaches, to keep the environment sealed. Kind of like the barrier that protects the Normandy's cockpit in the opening of ME2.

But yeah, it's hinky. They kind of just ignored the problem of atmosphere breaches in Sovereign's crash scene. In truth, I didn't notice it until you just mentioned it.

[Gabriel S.]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I should start off by saying to Terror K that I am sorry for belittling his concern (in the last thread). While I personally find people who get upset over seemly minor details to be overreacting, that doesn't give me the right to make light of his concern. He is concerned because, for him at least, it is an immersion breaker and anything that breaks our players immersion in the games is taken seriously by the dev team. I only said it in that manner as I know Terror has been here a long time and I thought, from prior conversations, we had a certain raport between us. Obviouly I misjudged the situation and my phrasing was uncalled for.

That being said, the dev team looks at issues like this and makes judgements. They listen to fans and, when possible, work to accomodate as many fans as possible. It is listening to them like this that has created things like helmet toggles to try to accomodate a wide variety of interests. There are reasons to have breathing masks in game. And I don't mean "the team was too lazy to make helmets" or whatever, but some fine story based reasons (like one area where "someone" has vented the atmosphere out of a room you are passing through). The team has spent a lot of time making facial animations and dialogs that we want you to see faces for. Now, as I mentioned, toggles, situations where masks are appropriate, etc so sometimes you will see a breathing mask. Hopefully people will look at it and eitehr accept it, or at worst begrudgingly understand why they were used.

Dear god, is the world ending...

[eye basher]

What's the point of playing a game if the character is constraint by the same stuff i am in real life how's that fun.I play games because in them i can run around the street naked while blowing up tanks with a rocket launcher in real life i'd either get sent to jail or get dead that's why i play games because there not REAL.

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)

If
you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

It's called "pseudoscience" Phaedon. Many sci-fi's use it and that's what gets them by. Star Trek alone is a scientifically inaccurate mess, but it works when it remains consistent with it own rules, even if they break real science as we know it for the most part. The worst episodes of the various series' tended to be the ones where they were inconsistent with previous lore (e.g. the episode where Barclay was seeing sock puppets in the transporter).

It's not about adhering to hard science so much as to being consistent with its own pseudoscience. Beyond that, most sci-fi's acknowledge and respect the basic dangers of space, if only for the fact that these factors make great dramatic and dangerous moments and paint a hazardous, somewhat dark and mysterious universe fraught with danger where being in the wrong place during a distaster could be deadly just beause of where you are. You can't respect this tool and use it one moment (as a main plot point at that) and so cavalierly dismiss it like it doesn't matter the next. That's as absurd as suddenly treating ignoring gravity or having quarians in the third game wandering around without suits with no explanation in every scene they appear in.

aksoileau wrote...

And your metaphors are terrible.  You're saying that a breathing mask just kills the writing, characterization, and romances?  Get a grip!

Funny... you say they're terrible, and yet you don't understand them.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how good something is, if the foundations aren't solid then it makes them meaningless because the universe and setting has been turned into a farce. The whole point of building a setting and universe with rules, boundaries and features is to give it an identity and try and make it come across as believable and engaging, especially if it's trying to be serious and thus taken seriously. If it contradicts itself massively to the point of stupidity, then it completely robs itself of any of this, and thus the universe becomes a sad joke and thus no longer really enjoyable. It's impossible for me to give a damn about Shepard's death at the start of ME2 no matter how good the writing is, no matter how dire and dangerous they make it seem and no matter how emotionally moving it is when the very factors that killed him/her are completely trivialised and treated like a sad joke for the entire rest of the game.

And when it feels like the people making the game don't seem to care about their own universe and setting any more and are so willing to toss consistency and logic aside for a reason that doesn't even improve the gameplay at all in any way shape or form, then I basically ask myself, "then why should I still care about it?"

Modifié par Terror_K, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:03 .

[ediskrad327]

holy Yggdrasil, 3 threads about BREATHING MASKS AND STILL GOING!?
shall i prepare the fourth?

[Gabriel S.]

eye basher wrote...

What's the point of playing a game if the character is constraint by the same stuff i am in real life how's that fun.I play games because in them i can run around the street naked while blowing up tanks with a rocket launcher in real life i'd either get sent to jail or get dead that's why i play games because there not REAL.

Yet I doubt that you do not have a limit to how much unrealism you're willing to accept.

[ODST 5723]

Nightwriter wrote...
Perhaps barriers automatically activate in the event of such breaches, to keep the environment sealed. Kind of like the barrier that protects the Normandy's cockpit in the opening of ME2.

But yeah, it's hinky. They kind of just ignored the problem of atmosphere breaches in Sovereign's crash scene. In truth, I didn't notice it until you just mentioned it.

The problem is, this guy's complaing about the lack of explanation for X because he doesn't like it, but isn't complaing about other stuff that makes even less sense.  Like sound in space.  Something that was added in entirely for rule of cool, since it helps make an epic scene epic.  Meanwhile, the same scenes that get put up as the pinnacle of their position undermine that position.

We didn't see a barrier and it wasn't explained.  If the inference can be made and something's OK here, why not elsewhere?

Modifié par ODST 5723, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:08 .

[Nightwriter]

ODST 5723 wrote...

The problem is, this guy's complaing about the lack of explanation for X because he doesn't like it, but isn't complaing about other stuff that makes even less sense.  Like sound in space.  Something that was added in entirely for rule of cool, since it helps make an epic scene epic.  Meanwhile, the same scenes that get put up as the pinnacle of their position undermine that position.

We didn't see a barrier and it wasn't explained.  If the inference can be made and something OK here, why not elsewhere?

Well, implausibilities come in different levels of tolerance. Sound in space is considered an Acceptable Break From Reality because mute scenes can limit the storytelling experience -- they certainly kill all dialogue that a scene might have. Sovereign's crash into the Citadel might simply be something that was overlooked.

Breathing masks are less easy to overlook, especially when the previous game took a more realistic approach to vacuum space and hazardous environments.

[CARL_DF90]

It is not a question of like and not like. You can suspend disbelief only so much before you say to yourself, "that's stupid". Maintaining believability, credibility, and the integrity of the series is important. Although the issue could have been handled better by both sides it is a valid concern. Don't dismiss the message just because of the messenger. Take a moment to consider the issue. That is what i did and I had to admit that there were some valid points to be made.