905 réponses à ce sujet

[xSTONEYx187x]

Yeah ... they never really bothered me. The only time I stopped and questioned something along the lines of what you guys are discussing is on the outside of the derelict Reaper and the Collector base.

Not even breathing masks!

[Terror_K]

ODST 5723 wrote...

The problem is, this guy's complaing about the lack of explanation for X because he doesn't like it, but isn't complaing about other stuff that makes even less sense.  Like sound in space.  Something that was added in entirely for rule of cool, since it helps make an epic scene epic.  Meanwhile, the same scenes that get put up as the pinnacle of their position undermine that position.

We didn't see a barrier and it wasn't explained.  If the inference can be made and something's OK here, why not elsewhere?

Aside from the fact that "sound in space" is in most television/film sci-fi's and that it was established in Mass Effect as part of the universe from the very opening, I highly doubt that The Council and a group of important Citadel officials would inhabit a building whereby a simple breach of the glass would kill them all. I'd say that basic logic would at least indicate that there's at least something protecting them.

In either case, perhaps it comes down to subtlety as well. For instance, I pesonally never noticed the case you just raised until you just raised it now, and I've never seen it brought up before, even in many of the other similar topics since ME2 came out. A bunch of squaddies constantly running around you on every mission wearing stupid gear on the other hand is like a brick to the face on every mission.

[ODST 5723]

Nightwriter wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

The problem is, this guy's complaing about the lack of explanation for X because he doesn't like it, but isn't complaing about other stuff that makes even less sense.  Like sound in space.  Something that was added in entirely for rule of cool, since it helps make an epic scene epic.  Meanwhile, the same scenes that get put up as the pinnacle of their position undermine that position.

We didn't see a barrier and it wasn't explained.  If the inference can be made and something OK here, why not elsewhere?

Well, implausibilities come in different levels of tolerance. Sound in space is considered an Acceptable Break From Reality because mute scenes can limit the storytelling experience -- they certainly kill all dialogue that a scene might have. Sovereign's crash into the Citadel might simply be something that was overlooked.

Breathing masks are less easy to overlook, especially when the previous game took a more realistic approach to vacuum space and hazardous environments.

It appears to have taken a more realistic approach.  That position is cobbled together by some visual evidence, ignoring certain missing components and holding onto assumptions.

If you're willing to be open to that scene being overlooked, you should also be open to the idea that there was more atmosphere and pressure around the Citadel than you think at first glance.

The Wards only have 7 meters of atmosphere which is maintained w/out much explanation.  There is no explanation here.  Only inference and assumption based on inconsistent evidence.

[ODST 5723]

Terror_K wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

The problem is, this guy's complaing about the lack of explanation for X because he doesn't like it, but isn't complaing about other stuff that makes even less sense.  Like sound in space.  Something that was added in entirely for rule of cool, since it helps make an epic scene epic.  Meanwhile, the same scenes that get put up as the pinnacle of their position undermine that position.

We didn't see a barrier and it wasn't explained.  If the inference can be made and something's OK here, why not elsewhere?

Aside from the fact that "sound in space" is in most television/film sci-fi's and that it was established in Mass Effect as part of the universe from the very opening, I highly doubt that The Council and a group of important Citadel officials would inhabit a building whereby a simple breach of the glass would kill them all. I'd say that basic logic would at least indicate that there's at least something protecting them.

In either case, perhaps it comes down to subtlety as well. For instance, I pesonally never noticed the case you just raised until you just raised it now, and I've never seen it brought up before, even in many of the other similar topics since ME2 came out. A bunch of squaddies constantly running around you on every mission wearing stupid gear on the other hand is like a brick to the face on every mission.

The window frame remained intact. The hole was higher.

[ediskrad327]

TEHY HAS MASKZ!!!11!!ONE1!! BIOWARE HAVZ RUINZ DA W0RLDZ!

[ODST 5723]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

It is not a question of like and not like. You can suspend disbelief only so much before you say to yourself, "that's stupid". Maintaining believability, credibility, and the integrity of the series is important. Although the issue could have been handled better by both sides it is a valid concern. Don't dismiss the message just because of the messenger. Take a moment to consider the issue. That is what i did and I had to admit that there were some valid points to be made.

You can dimiss a message by not liking the facts if you've got facts you like more.  People do it everyday.  That's the very essence behind the concept of suspension of disbelief.  I don't dismiss the message because of who's saying it.  I dimiss it because IMO, it's BS.

[darthnick427]

As long as Garrus, Vega and the VS have helmets I'm fine. Liara doesn't need one.

[Ryzaki]

Yup. As long as Garrus and Vega and a certain spoiler squaddie (that it makes sense for) have helmets? Don't care about the rest cause I'm not using them anyway.

[Someone With Mass]

That's a lot of commotion because of a breather mask Liara used in a place where the air clearly wasn't safe to breathe, because Shep and Vega were doing just fine without helmets.

[ODST 5723]

Someone With Mass wrote...

That's a lot of commotion because of a breather mask Liara used in a place where the air clearly wasn't safe to breathe, because Shep and Vega were doing just fine without helmets.

They've dismissed that claim.  This is ME2 geekrage spillover time.

[Someone With Mass]

ODST 5723 wrote...

They've dismissed that claim.  This is ME2 geekrage spillover time.

I can see that.

By the way, I know at least one mission in ME3 that requires a helmet. 

[Nightwriter]

ODST 5723 wrote...

It appears to have taken a more realistic approach.  That position is cobbled together by some visual evidence, ignoring certain missing components and holding onto assumptions.

If you're willing to be open to that scene being overlooked, you should also be open to the idea that there was more atmosphere and pressure around the Citadel than you think at first glance.

The Wards only have 7 meters of atmosphere which is maintained w/out much explanation.  There is no explanation here.  Only inference and assumption based on inconsistent evidence.

I am open to it. There could indeed have been more atmosphere during the tower walk scene than was implied. I just don't understand how this mitigates the problem of breathing masks.

What you seem to be saying is that we should widen our criticism to apply to every similar implausibility in the series. While I'm sure those implausibilities exist, I don't desire to widen my criticism to encompass every such error, no matter how trivial or unnoticeable. I only wish to address the one that is most immersion breaking for me.

Even then, this is a small issue, a minor annoyance. I'm somewhat disappointed that we won't be getting proper helmet suits for our squaddies, but it's not a "I'm canceling my preorder, the series is ruined" disappointment. It's a "that's too bad but I'll get over it" disappointment.

[ODST 5723]

What I implied was that when you bring up an argument regarding consistency you need to back it up.  That's a mighty gaping hole in the argument about what ME1 did/did not establish from a consistency perspective.

My position on the issue is covered by my suspension of disbelief factoring in the fact that what we see visually in games, not just in ME, is not necessarily indicative of the reality of that universe. Thus a plasma bolt can do X for gameplay purposes and I'm OK with it even though the lore establishes that it would tear through shields and incinerate flesh and bone. The same way that Issac Clarke only canonically took damage in a few instances the same way that Marcus Fenix, John-117 and Shepard do when it's required by the narrative and not by the gameplay.

So when I see a hole and no vacuum effects, I can infer that a barrier likely exists rather easily using what I know abut the universe. Thus, the visual representation of an iconic look isn't necessarily entirely representative of how that person would actually dress in that scenario. The breather mask, thus being a visual cue for theatrical purposes and not because the ME franchise is a hard-science franchise. 

The question is... where does the majority of reasonable, rational, average ME fans draw the line?  I don't think you'll find that answer on BSN because I don't think it's representative of that group.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Reptilian Rob]

didymos1120 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

 That "breathing mask" you thought was going to save your life doesn't work in a vacuum where the temperature and negative pressure kill you almost instantly.

Wrong.  One, there isn't "negative pressure" in a vacuum.  There's zero pressure.  Two, the differential isn't enough to cause instant death. Instant mild discomfort, sure, and you wouldn't want to spend a whole lot of time in such conditions as swelling would get worse over time, but not death.  Three: you also wouldn't insta-freeze, as the only way to shed heat in a vacuum is by radiating, which is quite slow (hence why the Codex makes such a big deal about starships and heat).  Four: it's actually the lack of oxygen which causes death so quickly in vacuum conditions.

That said: a breathing mask would still be a terrible idea.  Without a full suit with a good seal, your lung tissue, which is rather fragile (unlike your skin) would rupture due to the mask effectively forcing you to hold your breath.

Pressure in space is mesured in negative units called "Pascal" or SI for short. Vacuum has zero pressure, but it's measured in negative units. Same with temperature in Space being measured in negative Kelvin (-273 C), so yes you would freeze instantly and your ears and eyes would rupture from the lack of pressure to hold your fluids in place. 

So everytime I step of the Normandy and see Samara with that mask on, I just shake my head. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 30 décembre 2011 - 01:03 .

[ODST 5723]

You clearly want to see Garrus wear nothing at all

[ediskrad327]

jreezy wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

They've dismissed that claim.  This is ME2 geekrage spillover time.

I can see that.

By the way, I know at least one mission in ME3 that requires a helmet. 

I look forward to seeing certain squadmates where a breather mask or nothing at all, and watching the chaos that follows on BSN as a result.

that would have apocalyptical proportions!

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

jreezy wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

They've dismissed that claim.  This is ME2 geekrage spillover time.

I can see that.

By the way, I know at least one mission in ME3 that requires a helmet. 

I look forward to seeing certain squadmates where a breather mask or nothing at all, and watching the chaos that follows on BSN as a result.

Likewise jreezy, likewise. The flamewars will be so brutal that flame retardant clothing will be required before entering the forums.  

[Zanallen]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Pressure in space is mesured in negative units called "Pascal" or SI for short. Vacuum has zero pressure, but it's measured in negative units. Same with temperature in Space being measured in negative Kelvin (-273 C), so yes you would freeze instantly and your ears and eyes would rupture from the lack of pressure to hold your fluids in place. 

So everytime I step of the Normandy and see Samara with that mask on, I just shake my head. 

www.geoffreylandis.com/vacuum.html

You would not instantly freeze, nor would your ears or eyes rupture.

Of course, it doesn't actually matter because at no time is your squad confirmed to be exposed to vacuum for more than perhaps 10 seconds. The only time for certain that you are in vacuum is when Shepard is by himself. During these times, Shepard is fully suited up.

[Reptilian Rob]

Zanallen wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Pressure in space is mesured in negative units called "Pascal" or SI for short. Vacuum has zero pressure, but it's measured in negative units. Same with temperature in Space being measured in negative Kelvin (-273 C), so yes you would freeze instantly and your ears and eyes would rupture from the lack of pressure to hold your fluids in place. 

So everytime I step of the Normandy and see Samara with that mask on, I just shake my head. 

www.geoffreylandis.com/vacuum.html

You would not instantly freeze, nor would your ears or eyes rupture.

Of course, it doesn't actually matter because at no time is your squad confirmed to be exposed to vacuum for more than perhaps 10 seconds. The only time for certain that you are in vacuum is when Shepard is by himself. During these times, Shepard is fully suited up.

Maybe I didn't word that coreectly, the term for your blood boiling away due to vacuum and other factors is called freezing because the pace at which your blood boils is more or less akin to a "dry" freeze. You wouldn't actually "freeze" in space, IE cold, but rather your entire circulatroy system would kill you on it's own due to again, vaccum. 

And just to be sure, Space vacuum is MUCH different that artificial vacuum. 

[Reptilian Rob]

Arg, not "boil" in the sense that it would bubble, but rather it would cause explosive decompression. Not really coherent today, am I?

[Someone With Mass]

jreezy wrote...
I look forward to seeing certain squadmates where a breather mask or nothing at all, and watching the chaos that follows on BSN as a result.

I'll personally be too occupied with playing ME3 to care at that point, but it's indeed bound to happen.

[didymos1120]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Pressure in space is mesured in negative units called "Pascal" or SI for short. Vacuum has zero pressure, but it's measured in negative units.

Wrong.  The symbol for Pascal is 'Pa'.  SI is the abbreviation for the entire system of standardized units.  And they aren't "negative units" either.  Here:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Pascal (unit)

A perfect vacuum would simply be 0 Pa.  For more on how pressure's actually measured:

http://en.wikipedia...._zero_reference

Same with temperature in Space being measured in negative Kelvin (-273 C), so yes you would freeze instantly and your ears and eyes would rupture from the lack of pressure to hold your fluids in place.

-273 C is in Celsius.  Hence the 'C'.  On the Kelvin scale, that's 0.  And you're still wrong about insta-freezing and stuff rupturing.

Modifié par didymos1120, 30 décembre 2011 - 01:26 .

[Zanallen]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Maybe I didn't word that coreectly, the term for your blood boiling away due to vacuum and other factors is called freezing because the pace at which your blood boils is more or less akin to a "dry" freeze. You wouldn't actually "freeze" in space, IE cold, but rather your entire circulatroy system would kill you on it's own due to again, vaccum. 

And just to be sure, Space vacuum is MUCH different that artificial vacuum. 

imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

No.

[didymos1120]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Arg, not "boil" in the sense that it would bubble, but rather it would cause explosive decompression. Not really coherent today, am I?

No, you wouldn't explode.  The pressure differential required for that to happen is much larger than you'd encounter going from 1 atm to vacuum or from a suit breach (suits generally are at lower than atmospheric pressure).