905 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

HiroVoid wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I see people are talking about insta-freezing in space and all that good stuff. Guys, that's wrong. Our bodies store a terrible amount of heat. For that heat to be lost it would take you at least a couple hours regardless of what medium you're in; that's when you start to freeze. The insta-freezing you see in movies is bull and can't happen in real life.

So if I go out naked in a blizzard and lie down, I won't die or suffer from some type of frost-bite?

Note that I'm referring to instant freezing, like that one scene from Mission to Mars if you've seen the movie. This can't happen because our bodies store a LOT of heat which can't be lost within the space of a few seconds.

[HiroVoid]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I see people are talking about insta-freezing in space and all that good stuff. Guys, that's wrong. Our bodies store a terrible amount of heat. For that heat to be lost it would take you at least a couple hours regardless of what medium you're in; that's when you start to freeze. The insta-freezing you see in movies is bull and can't happen in real life.

So if I go out naked in a blizzard and lie down, I won't die or suffer from some type of frost-bite?

Note that I'm referring to instant freezing, like that one scene from Mission to Mars if you've seen the movie. This can't happen because our bodies store a LOT of heat which can't be lost within the space of a few seconds.

Ah.  I thought you were trying to refute people from saying it wouldn't kill us in that moment.  Sorry about that.  My knowledge in that area isn't familiar.  It would still kill us though right?

Modifié par HiroVoid, 30 décembre 2011 - 06:25 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Of course it would, but not instantly like you see in the movies. Like I said earlier, it would typically take a few hours for all that heat to be lost, at which point you start deoxygenating and all hell breaks loose from there.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 30 décembre 2011 - 06:31 .

[Cancer Puppet]

Storm Farron wrote...

they are just people complaining about how their precious "immersion" will get broken because of this.

I agree that it's kind of silly for people to get so worked up over something that honestly has no real impact on the game. That said, it seems equally silly that a suitable work-around for an issue that so many people grumble about hasn't been found.

I understand that the devs don't want all their work on facial animations put to waste, but at that same time some people care about realism. I realise suspention of disbelief is a necessity when it comes to sci-fi, but some things don't always sit right. Not wearing a space suit while in space for example. Multi-stage collapsible helmets (open, breather, and full) could have looked cool and ended the complaints, thus leaving more time for people to complain about other things.

[HiroVoid]

Cancer Puppet wrote...

Storm Farron wrote...

they are just people complaining about how their precious "immersion" will get broken because of this.

I agree that it's kind of silly for people to get so worked up over something that honestly has no real impact on the game. That said, it seems equally silly that a suitable work-around for an issue that so many people grumble about hasn't been found.

I understand that the devs don't want all their work on facial animations put to waste, but at that same time some people care about realism. I realise suspention of disbelief is a necessity when it comes to sci-fi, but some things don't always sit right. Not wearing a space suit while in space for example. Multi-stage collapsible helmets (open, breather, and full) could have looked cool and ended the complaints, thus leaving more time for people to complain about other things.

I'm personally fine with style over realism as long as it doesn't break immerssion too much.  A person who already wears clothing into battles isn't going to have armor suddenly if something happens, so to me, it would be more immersion-breaking to have a helmet suddenly come out from their clothes.  If they can't put up a way to do it without investing too many resources into it, I'm fine with it.  I hate 'We don't have it because we want you to see the facial expressions' reason though because then you're dictating your personal preferences towards someone's playthrough.  If it's possible to have something like helmets with only a small number of resources, I think it should be done though I think the argument's mute as long as characters are already wearing clothing to battle which is style over realism.  Personally, I preferred ME1's system, but I know at this point, it's not coming back.

[shinobi602]

Lol.

"What no helmets!?!!? Breaks my immersionz, so unrealistic!!!!!!"

Later that game...

"OMG sweet I'm traveling at warp speed and can telepathically talk to bugs.I love this game!!!"

[Iakus]

Cancer Puppet wrote...

I understand that the devs don't want all their work on facial animations put to waste, but at that same time some people care about realism. I realise suspention of disbelief is a necessity when it comes to sci-fi, but some things don't always sit right. Not wearing a space suit while in space for example. Multi-stage collapsible helmets (open, breather, and full) could have looked cool and ended the complaints, thus leaving more time for people to complain about other things.

And what's ironic is that work's going to be wasted on a lot of people anyway, because some of us will refuse to bring such characters along on missions that require those stupid breather masks.

At this point I fear the best we can hope for is that Bioware will at least be somewhat intelligent about the masks this time and not put us in completely stupid situations with them, like Jack on the Rayya or something.  

I am not optimistic.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Personally I can't quite understand why people are trashing the 'realism is important' argument. I mean if aesthetics are more important than realism, why doesn't Shepard carry an ice-cream cone that fires snowflakes at the bad guys?

I'd also argue two other points:
1. If realism doesn't matter and we're onlt after aesthetics, why not just ditch the breathing masks and have the squaddies have nothing over their face?

2. again, if breathing masks are so great, why did Bioware create outfits like the Infero and Terminus armours for ME2, or things like the Recon Hood which deliberately covers Shepards entire face?

I also don't get why it has to be a 'one way or the other' approach. Chris mentioned a section where someone decompresses a room you're in - great situation for an emergency facemask. I mean my Shepard runs around with the Sentry visor on in ME2, so a sudden helmet appearing is a bit silly. On the other hand if you know you're going into a hostile environment, a clear-faced visor on a helmet gives realism AND lets you see all of the nice facial animations.

Win win right?

[ediskrad327]

this thread IS STILL GOING!?

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Well thanks for that insight ediskrad. I'm going to now go and re-evaluate my life based on your wonderfully crafted, wise comment.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ohei wrote...

At first I was like, ''Oh, masks are back. I truthfully do not give a flying elcor about this.''

But then I was like, ''Show-off improved facial animations? F* YEAH MASKS FOREVER.''

True story.

Because otherwise you won't see those great facial animations?
Yeah right..Certanly the commnets the squaddies shout out while running and gunning with masks allow me to see their great facial animations.
Surely I forgot how they look and surely there's a clear shortage of facial animations.. I mean, I only see them in EVERY OTEHR LEVEL.

[ediskrad327]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Well thanks for that insight ediskrad. I'm going to now go and re-evaluate my life based on your wonderfully crafted, wise comment.

please do guy who i wasn't telling to directly do so

[Lotion Soronarr]

realguile wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

stuff.

it's a damn video game.  This **** ain't sex nor should it cause pain on par with passing a kidney stone. Before this game releases some of you should make sure all sharp objects and firerarms are out of your damn house cause y'all take this stuff too damn seriously.

IT'S. A. VIDEO. GAME.

IT. IS. ALSO. A. STORY.
An experience that tries to be immersive and serious and fails because it does infantile and juvenile things for no good reason.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
Except that in NO BioWare game, EVER, did you ever fight in space. Unless you don't know what space means either.[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHA...

Your memory is very short-lived apparently.


[quote]
[quote]They don't have to be standardized to be protective. Mercenaries often purchase their own gear - depending on funds available. Tehy might wear different flack/kelvar jackets or use different guns, but they go around naked.[/quote]
ACTUAL Mercenaries, not from HOLLYWOOD:
*SNIP*

That glorious, glorious Juventus outfit. But I guess that they don't go around naked.

Armies barely have money to issue the most basic protection to soldiers in rich western countries, and you think that mercenaries are fully equipped and have protection?[/quote]

Reading comprehension - you fail at it.




[quote]
In that specific part, probably. However, jumping from the derelict reaper to the Normandy trough space..you kinda fly trough space..ya know..[/quote]
You don't, because both ships have ME fields, but, let's play along.[/quote]

You do. But hey, why not follow you magic logic and ME fields magicly doing whatever you want them to.
Because clearly hte ME fields hold air in a gaint bubble around the ship - or do they? Wait...hm...nope, nothing in the codex about that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...
Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)



If you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

Then you must be scientificly illiterate.

Because Dragon Teeth, Thermal Sinks and Indoctriantions are not bad science.

As for element Zero, in a sci-fi epic there are a few liberties one MUST take. If htere is no FTL travel, then you can't have alien species.

There is a difference between Necessary Breaks From Reality - where an element MUST be there for the unvierse/setting to work, and completely unnecessary breaks that serve no real purpose (like spandex suits and breathing masks)

[elitecom]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then you must be scientificly illiterate.

Because Dragon Teeth, Thermal Sinks and Indoctriantions are not bad science.

As for element Zero, in a sci-fi epic there are a few liberties one MUST take. If htere is no FTL travel, then you can't have alien species.

There is a difference between Necessary Breaks From Reality - where an element MUST be there for the unvierse/setting to work, and completely unnecessary breaks that serve no real purpose (like spandex suits and breathing masks)

I agree, Bioware has really put a lot of effort in making the Mass Effect games seem scientifically plausible, and they are compared to a lot of other science fiction franchises. If mass manipulation could be acheived to the same degree as in Mass Effect, then it can definitely yield the same results. You always need some kind of fiction like FTL travel and so on to be able to make your universe work.

[AgitatedLemon]

elitecom wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then you must be scientificly illiterate.

Because Dragon Teeth, Thermal Sinks and Indoctriantions are not bad science.

As for element Zero, in a sci-fi epic there are a few liberties one MUST take. If htere is no FTL travel, then you can't have alien species.

There is a difference between Necessary Breaks From Reality - where an element MUST be there for the unvierse/setting to work, and completely unnecessary breaks that serve no real purpose (like spandex suits and breathing masks)

I agree, Bioware has really put a lot of effort in making the Mass Effect games seem scientifically plausible, and they are compared to a lot of other science fiction franchises. If mass manipulation could be acheived to the same degree as in Mass Effect, then it can definitely yield the same results. You always need some kind of fiction like FTL travel and so on to be able to make your universe work.

This. Well... Both of these.

Even with all the "Bad science" in Mass Effect, we can all agree that it makes more sense than Star Wars.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 30 décembre 2011 - 11:43 .

[nitefyre410]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Personally I can't quite understand why people are trashing the 'realism is important' argument. I mean if aesthetics are more important than realism, why doesn't Shepard carry an ice-cream cone that fires snowflakes at the bad guys?

I'd also argue two other points:
1. If realism doesn't matter and we're onlt after aesthetics, why not just ditch the breathing masks and have the squaddies have nothing over their face?

2. again, if breathing masks are so great, why did Bioware create outfits like the Infero and Terminus armours for ME2, or things like the Recon Hood which deliberately covers Shepards entire face?

I also don't get why it has to be a 'one way or the other' approach. Chris mentioned a section where someone decompresses a room you're in - great situation for an emergency facemask. I mean my Shepard runs around with the Sentry visor on in ME2, so a sudden helmet appearing is a bit silly. On the other hand if you know you're going into a hostile environment, a clear-faced visor on a helmet gives realism AND lets you see all of the nice facial animations.

Win win right?

 


Its not about trashing ... its about prioties and the  Mass Hysteria  and epic 10.000 word  "I cancelling my pre-order cause you broke immersion, Bioware you suck"   temper tanturms that some seem to go on  about  something  at the end of the day  has no real effect  on the story. Meanwhile  others things that could be talked about  - like  development of the plot,  the Red and Blue morality system,  how bad the  squad AI  for instance.   Please  don't sit there and try  convince  me that better character development,  and  fixing some of other miss steps that  ME 2 made are some how less important than... breathing mask. 

Want to know a real immersion breaker for me...

Setting up my squad in nice good positon  and then have  them jump out directly into  fire and get themselves killed and now I'm stuck with my balls dangling in the wind with no team to cover me... because of broke Squad  AI.

Drove me nuts

[elitecom]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Its not about trashing ... its about prioties and the  Mass Hysteria  and epic 10.000 word  "I cancelling my pre-order cause you broke immersion, Bioware you suck"   temper tanturms that some seem to go on  about  something  at the end of the day  has no real effect  on the story. Meanwhile  others things that could be talked about  - like  development of the plot,  the Red and Blue morality system,  how bad the  squad AI  for instance.   Please  don't sit there and try  convince  me that better character development,  and  fixing some of other miss steps that  ME 2 made are some how less important than... breathing mask. 

Want to know a real immersion breaker for me...

Setting up my squad in nice good positon  and then have  them jump out directly into  fire and get themselves killed and now I'm stuck with my balls dangling in the wind with no team to cover me... because of broke Squad  AI.

Drove me nuts

Well believe it or not people have different things they worry about. Some are worried about how breathing masks ruin the immersion for them, while others like yourself have other worries. The best thing is to just respect each others worries or problems, there's no objective feature or detail that is more important than any other. It's all subjective.

What you really should do is start your own thread where you open a discussion for how you consider the squad AI to be flawed and needs fixing instead of going to this thread here and wasting your energy trying to make fun of other peoples' worries or telling them how other features or details are more or less valid to talk about.

Just a suggestion. 
 
Focus on what you consider to be important.

[Bleachrude]

 I would like to point out that there _IS_ the Mohs scale of science fiction hardness so NO, you don't have to classify sci-fi as either hard or soft.

Mass effect is a high 3 to a mid 4 due to the core "physics-breaking" element zero being treated like Minovsky Particle versus say Trek's "subspace fields" or Stargate's Naquadria Green Rock effect

ME1 was clearly in the low to mid 4 (if not an outright 4.5) whereas it seems we're sliding more and more to a mid to hgih 3. Personally, I understand WHY it is happening (in terms of science fiction, the lower the number on Mohs scale, the larger the mass appeal) but that doesn't mean I have to like it and if making comments can encourage bioware to meet halfway, not sure why this is bad to do...

[Someone With Mass]

All this because of a simple breather mask and the distinct lack of environments that requires a helmet.

Wait, why is this such a big problem again?

[GodWood]

I can't say I'm suprised. Bioware has been pissing on their existing lore for two games now in the name of 'rule of cool'. Why would they change now?

What I am suprised at is the people complaining about the fact that people are complaining about it. Especially the ones who criticize them for complaining about something 'so trivial' and then argue with them for ten pages.

Someone With Mass wrote...
Wait, why is this such a big problem again?

Well if you took off your fanboy hat you'd see that prancing around in hostile environments wearing nothing but a breathing mask is pretty silly and contradicts the already established lore.

Modifié par GodWood, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:41 .

[Someone With Mass]

Eh, it doesn't contradict anything if it's used in a environment where it's not safe to breathe because the air is polluted. By the way, I'm talking about ME3. I can't care less about what ME2 did at this point.

Oh, and there's no established lore just because they've showed everyone in helmets up until now.

That's like saying that Shepard is breaking the immersion (that is such a overused word, by the way) just because he's wearing a hoodie instead of that outfit he wears in the Earth demo.

So get some lotion for your sore ass instead.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[AlexXIV]

GodWood wrote...

I can't say I'm suprised. Bioware has been pissing on their existing lore for two games now in the name of 'rule of cool'. Why would they change now?

What I am suprised at is the people complaining about the fact that people are complaining about it. Especially the ones who criticize them for complaining about something 'so trivial' and then argue with them for ten pages.

Someone With Mass wrote...
Wait, why is this such a big problem again?

Well if you took off your fanboy hat you'd see that prancing around in hostile environments wearing nothing but a breathing mask is pretty silly and contradicts the already established lore.

Well you mentioned the rule of cool already. You don't have to think of it as someone running around with only a breathing mask on. Just look at it as if Varric told the story.

[Candidate 88766]

People should be aiming for the top couple of segments, but a lot of people are instead just going for the most basic arguments of insulting the writer instead of the argument they make. In the interest of not getting this thread locked - some of the points being raised are genuinely interesting - everyone, please, try to at least counter people's arguments instead of insulting each other.




Anyway, OT:

If the characters ever enter a vacuum or an atmosphere hazardous to the skin, then obviously a fully-sealed suit is needed. Otherwise, a simple breathing mask would suffice. If the Reapers were able to create a system to hold an atmosphere on the Citadel, then its not a stretch to imagine they could do the same with themselves and with the Collector Base. 

A breather mask is much easier to carry and so is more versatile. Obviously in some situations a mask wouldn't suffice, but in virtually every situation found in ME2 a mask was fine. Shepard was the only one who ever explicitly entered a vacuum - at the start of ME2 and the end of Arrival. There are some areas of debate - there is the chlorine atmosphere planet, and although chlorine is only really hazardous when inhaled it can cause irritation to the eyes in the concentration presumably found on that planet.

There is the bit on the Derelict Reaper when Shepard and co. appear to be outside, but seeing as even Shepard isn't wearing a helmet it seems reasonable to assume that the writers thought there was an atmosphere there, which is hardly beyond the reapers' capabilities. Although I think I'm right in saying that at the end of that level they all suddenly don helmets out of nowhere, which I found quite jarring. 

Finally, there is the bit where the Normandy appears to crash on the outside of the Collector Base, but then seeing as none of the characters are even wearing their breather masks it seems safe to assume the writers felt there was an atmosphere there, which isn't beyond the Reapers' capabilities.

I agree that a full helmet is more realistic - even though this is science fiction, some level of realism is still nice. A transparent helmet would be ideal - I would rather see the characters' faces than have them covered up for the sake of realism. However, I personally didn't mind the masks all that much. The only missions I felt they were inadequate were visiting the Migrant Fleet and that mission on the chlorine planet, but on each of those I took Garrus and either Tali or Legion. 

I get that some people felt it was highly immersion breaking, but I think I'm right in saying that very few of the missions made the characters wear their masks - two N7 missions (the chlorine one and the derelict space station), Tali's LM, Legion's LM and the Collector Ship - and the N7 missions are over in a couple of minutes. For those few missions, using characters like Garrus, Legion, Tali, Grunt, Thane or Zaeed, all of whom have masks that completely cover their faces, sidesteps the problem somewhat.

If the argument is whether a mask provides adequate protection in combat compared to a full helmet, I would argue that most protection comes from shields and barriers. Very few of our squadmates have a head-on style of attack, and those that do Garrus, Zaeed, Grunt - all wear pretty substantial armour. 

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:56 .