905 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nashiktal wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

The Recon Hood is not a helmet

Nope but it is a fully sealed mask that obscures facial features. (Which bioware wants to show off apparently, which again leads into the conflicting ideals)

More like "ram in our faces". Lord know the universe woulkd implode if there's a level or two where we coudln't see the NPC's faces...
I mean, we're only staring at Sheps back for 80% of the game....

[JamieCOTC]

iakus wrote...

bennyjammin79 wrote...

Does anybody know why Liara is wearing the evil breathing mask in the picture that started this latest outburst of sperm-retention fueled nerdrage? She could've for example just come from a room full of CO or countless other scenarios. For all we know, there could still be helmets for places where they're a necessity. Bioware can't have simply ignored how hilarious it would be to wear no eye protection on a planet with say... a chlorine atmosphere. Could they have?

So did Casey Hudson (or anyone else from Bioware for that matter) tweet that Liara and other squadmates will have different types of headgear for different situations?

Did Mass Effect 2 have that?

Get back to me if either of those questions can be answered with a "yes"

Ashley will be able to have armor and a helmet in ME3, as will others. We've only shown very little of the game so far. - Casey Hudson

http://twitter.com/#...945665043636224

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 30 décembre 2011 - 10:03 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Hardsuit and helmet design and coloration may be "stylistic issues" but the fact that they exist and are used is not.  The walk up the Citadel is proof of why they are worn.  Shepard's death shows the price for not having a proper seal.  the Bioware teams go through all the trouble of providing descriptions of planets, including temperature and atmosphere.  You gonna be the one to tell them that's an utter waste of time?

I already have, on several occasions. I actually place the planet descriptions even lower than the hardsuits in terms of lore I'm interested in. Bear in mind that I consider Mass Effect to be the Bioware game that destroyed good side quests. All that time spent writing descriptions for planets I might never visit (and in some cases was not able to visit) could easily have been used for codex entries or lines of dialogue. It certainly didn't add anything that I consider substantial to the experience.

Well, if we're bringing the EU into it, then yes, vacuum exists in the the Star Wars universe.  And the asteroid scene is an early sign of Lucas's insantiy;) 

I don't even think we even need the EU to do it. Any fantasy or science fiction setting is dependent on viewers considering the laws of physics/science to be applicable, except where the setting specifically points out otherwise. That's why I consider the breath masks to be a contradiction, since Lucas did not indicate that vacuums do not exist in Star Wars. I don't think it's a huge deal, but I think it's a huge leap to say that Episode V established that hardsuits are not needed in space.

Someone on the BSN for a while had a sig quote:  "It's one thing to suspend disbelief.  It's another to hang it by the neck until dead"  Is exposed skin dangerous on the Flotilla or not?  Is it a really bad thing to be in the upper atmosphere of a brown dwarf when the barriers go down or not?  Is chlorine gas dangerous to the eyes and skin or not?  Kinda funny how everyone had to suit up on Binthu in ME1, but didn't for Tarith in ME2.

I can't "just go with it" when Bioware insists on being inconsistent with its own rules or simply doesn't care as long as it looks cool.  Artistic license only goes so far.

Indeed, and the suspension of disbelief can differ from person to person, as it does here. I never considered hardsuits to be a big deal, particularly because in ME1 the moments where hardsuits played an important part were almost exclusively related to the Mako and exploration, two of my least favorite aspects of ME1.

You don't have to go with Bioware's direction. This is just where my position on artistic license extends a bit farther than yours.

Modifié par Il Divo, 30 décembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

More like tiers of common sense.

Whatever you want to call it. I value consistency only when they change what I enjoy about the setting. I care very little about hardsuits, compared to other elements of Mass Effect, hence why its alteration was completely lost on me.

Artistic license cango too far and ruin the work too...

Very true. And that's ultimately up to each player to determine when it's been taken too far.

[Iakus]

JamieCOTC wrote...

iakus wrote...

So did Casey Hudson (or anyone else from Bioware for that matter) tweet that Liara and other squadmates will have different types of headgear for different situations?

Did Mass Effect 2 have that?

Get back to me if either of those questions can be answered with a "yes"

Ashley will be able to have armor and a helmet in ME3, as will others. We've only shown very little of the game so far. - Casey Hudson

http://twitter.com/#...945665043636224

All that proves is that Ash and unspecified "others" will get to wear helmets.  While I'm very glad my favorite ME character rates more than an allergen filter, that does not tell us that Liara and others will get a helmet when the situation is appropriate. 

For all we know, the situation is no different than ME2:  Garrus, Grunt, Tali (and kinda Legion) are properly helmeted up and everyone else can wear a breather in any kind of enviroment, regardless of how hostile it is.  That tweet says nothing otherwise save we can add Ash to the helmeted list.

Again:  Will ME3 have different types of headgear for different situations? Or will we just have to "go with it?"

[DiebytheSword]

I personally don't mind the masks so long as they are used in situations where they would work: non-reactive, unbreathable enviroments within tolerable pressures.

The minute conditions become hostile enough for an enviromental suit, the characters should have them, regardless of design. Jack would look awesome in a harsuit that looks like it crawled out of Mad Max.

[crimzontearz]

sorry but until I see this phantomatic headgear ans know exactly how t works I'm gonna have to assume we can see it only once in a token mission

sorry but the sybilline approach to this situation immediately turns me suspicious

[daftPirate]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I personally don't mind the masks so long as they are used in situations where they would work: non-reactive, unbreathable enviroments within tolerable pressures.

The minute conditions become hostile enough for an enviromental suit, the characters should have them, regardless of design. Jack would look awesome in a harsuit that looks like it crawled out of Mad Max.

As cool as that would be though, customized suits for every character don't always fit. Jack's case is perfect: Why would she have armor like that? Sure it fits her character, but she's been on a prison/slaver ship for who knows how long, which was destroyed on her way out. Her weapons are the ones Cerberus gives her. Really, if characters would ever be required to have hardsuits, they'd be standard issue, Cerberus ones(or whichever faction in another, future game).

[DiebytheSword]

daftPirate wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I personally don't mind the masks so long as they are used in situations where they would work: non-reactive, unbreathable enviroments within tolerable pressures.

The minute conditions become hostile enough for an enviromental suit, the characters should have them, regardless of design. Jack would look awesome in a harsuit that looks like it crawled out of Mad Max.

As cool as that would be though, customized suits for every character don't always fit. Jack's case is perfect: Why would she have armor like that? Sure it fits her character, but she's been on a prison/slaver ship for who knows how long, which was destroyed on her way out. Her weapons are the ones Cerberus gives her. Really, if characters would ever be required to have hardsuits, they'd be standard issue, Cerberus ones(or whichever faction in another, future game).

You'd be correct in ME2, but as I understand it, many months have passed in game, more than enough for her to modify her suit.  She's just one example though, there are many characters who would have had time to modify their gear to suit their image should they not be active military or hot off the paddy wagon.

[ODST 5723]

iakus wrote...
So that wasn't a spacewalk up the side of the CItadel?  

Spacewalk in vacuum is debatable due to the result the pieces of Sovereign that punctured the tower leading to the lack of any decompression or the need for breathing equipment, no loss of gravity and there's normal fires burning.  There's no explanation provided (thus creating a lack of consistency you're so fond of) considering that they're exposed to the same conditions as blowing out the window in the elevator.  Perhaps a field protected them and closed up the hole, but there's no visual evidence or narrative explaining it.  Which is your issue, right?  Where's the explanation.

The only mention of atmosphere being maintained on the Citadal is in the Wards up to 7 meters and there's no explanation as to how this is maintained. (we have to take it for granted since it's not explained).  The remaining buildings were sealed against vacuum.  Based on the evidence your favorite examples create an issue in ME1 that's up there with what you dislike about ME2.  Only that one gets a pass.

I don't personally have an issue with it at all, but how your panties aren't getting tied into mutliple knots about that boggles me when you're so anal about other examples.

iakus wrote...
If Shepard wasn't dead by the time he hit the ground, he likely would have been in moments.  So he's doubly dead.

No.  He was just dead.  The suit breach gets combined with him what atmosphere existed on that planet and the impact to ensure that the player knows that Shepard was definitely dead.  Any one of those could have killed him, and in reality we don't know if the vacuum got him before the heat from re-entry.  So you can't just point to the suit breach as if it proves your point.  Whether he was wearing a sealed suit or wouldn't have mattered.  It was nice, but odd, to see remnants of that suit pop up in the game, though.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 30 décembre 2011 - 11:09 .

[Kakistos_]

Il Divo wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

This is a side note question of curiosity about "If Bioware suddenly rewrote how Biotics worked to allow for
teleportation, invisibility, and mind control, I'm going to take issue." I'm not trolling I'm genuinely curious about your opinion of the Reave and Dominate Powers in ME2 with regards to your post.

Great question. And this might sound completely idiotic, but I have three different ways that I typically look at it. Let's consider Vanguard charge as an example.

1)  The satisfaction of watching Shepard clash into a merc headfist is cool enough that I don't mind the breach in logic of how element zero works, especially since it's not really given any lore reference and exists only in gameplay.

2) Charge makes zero sense in the ME universe and the devs screwed up through its inclusion.

3) Try to justify it. "Charge" is really just Shepard lowering his mass to move faster, then dramatically increasing it at the last second to give an ultra punch. The beam of light thing is just for dramatic effect.

My opinion on it is some weird mix-up of the three. Reave kinda has the same problem, but Dominate (as presented) seems to be an Ardat-Yakshi ability more than a natural biotic talent. I think there's a way of giving it to other characters but similar to how you can give a non-biotic Shepard biotic talents in ME1, I try to avoid these little "holes".

I actually don't consider charge to be a retcon/segregation of lore, except the phasing through solid objects part. With respect to how Biotics and Mass Effect fields have been explained it seems perfectly plausable to me, just a full body variation of a biotic punch/with theatrics.
The HUGE issue I had with Dominate is the Mind Control. Yes, Asari have powerful mental abilities and can be seducive but Mind Control is a rather large stretch (and so is an Ardat-Yakshi's ability to gain metaphysical strength/power from their victims, taking the vampire comparison WAY too far.) Anyway, thank you for your input.

[ODST 5723]

To me it's simple... the powers are for gameplay purposes and not for establishing or furthering lore.

Charge is fun.  It wouldn't be as fun if worked 100% like it should in "reality"

Modifié par ODST 5723, 30 décembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Il Divo wrote...
Indeed, and the suspension of disbelief can differ from person to person, as it does here.

Which is why it makes most sense to aim for as little inconsistency as possible.
That way a bigger audience cna enjoy the work.

You said youself - you don't care and didn't notice. Hence why changing it would have no impact on you but it would have on those who prefer more consistency and common sense in the narrative.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...
Spacewalk in vacuum is debatable due to the result the pieces of Sovereign that punctured the tower leading to the lack of any decompression or the need for breathing equipment, no loss of gravity and there's normal fires burning.  There's no explanation provided (thus creating a lack of consistency you're so fond of) considering that they're exposed to the same conditions as blowing out the window in the elevator.  Perhaps a field protected them and closed up the hole, but there's no visual evidence or narrative explaining it.  Which is your issue, right?  Where's the explanation.

Automated mechanisms and devices to close holes should be pretty standard in anything that's built to be in space (like the Citadel).
An aditional buklhead or special field is the most likely explanation. In this case, it's easily explainable, so no specific explanation is required.

Altough I should watch the cutscene again to see if the hole is actually visible.

[ODST 5723]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...
Spacewalk in vacuum is debatable due to the result the pieces of Sovereign that punctured the tower leading to the lack of any decompression or the need for breathing equipment, no loss of gravity and there's normal fires burning.  There's no explanation provided (thus creating a lack of consistency you're so fond of) considering that they're exposed to the same conditions as blowing out the window in the elevator.  Perhaps a field protected them and closed up the hole, but there's no visual evidence or narrative explaining it.  Which is your issue, right?  Where's the explanation.

Automated mechanisms and devices to close holes should be pretty standard in anything that's built to be in space (like the Citadel).
An aditional buklhead or special field is the most likely explanation. In this case, it's easily explainable, so no specific explanation is required.

Altough I should watch the cutscene again to see if the hole is actually visible.

It's above the big window.

Should be standard and are actually used are two different things.  If you can take that on faith/common sense/suspension of disbelief and don't need a narrative explanation or visual evidence, then you can make that same leap of logic in other scenarios as well.  it also undercuts the position about credibility and internal consistency because "BIoware made a rule"

At the end of the day, we're all picking the "facts" we like and ignoring the ones we don't. 

[DarthSliver]

Well I can see how Breather Mask bugs someone, in away you can compare to something that bugs you. What I mean by that is I dont like music that bleeps out the cuss words that were in the song, to me I can still hear exactly what they were going for and the bleep just really bugs me.

[Bleachrude]

iakus wrote...


Someone on the BSN for a while had a sig quote:  "It's one thing to suspend disbelief.  It's another to hang it by the neck until dead"  Is exposed skin dangerous on the Flotilla or not?  Is it a really bad thing to be in the upper atmosphere of a brown dwarf when the barriers go down or not?  Is chlorine gas dangerous to the eyes and skin or not?  Kinda funny how everyone had to suit up on Binthu in ME1, but didn't for Tarith in ME2.

I can't "just go with it" when Bioware insists on being inconsistent with its own rules or simply doesn't care as long as it looks cool.  Artistic license only goes so far.

Again, I agree with the consensus that it breaks immersion to not be wearing suits and masks (if Garrus and Grunt who actually wear the full package pretty much no humans should be able to go without) but I do disagree with the notion that it is simply a case of bioware being "unreasonable".

Jack's modelling did take time and effort and if Jack got a suit therre would be multiple demands.
1. Why does only Jack get a suit AND a ship outfit. Quite rightly, many people would point out that their characters like Garrus and Grunt should come with the same options. Same thing with Miranda's catsuit and jacob's bodysuit....

2. If you give Jack a suit, what was the point of spending all those resources on modelling jack and her tattoos when you pretty much won't see them other than on Normandy 

The problem is that characters like miranda, jack and jacob, part of their initial design specs _IS_ their specific character look and suits pretty much cover that up...Something similar goes for facial animation in that you're spending a lot of effort (time and money) that won't actually get used....

ME2's Jack is clearly a Riddick expy (which I have no problem with since the mass effect games have ALWAYS been homages to space opera/science fiction) but one where part of the defining features breaks immersion in many cases.

As an aside, I id like how in Kasumi's and Samara's LM you actually had to take OFF the armour since it would actually make you stick out..Frankly, in the main game, there should be more of this..

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

No, it's called science that should be disputed by a C student in junior highschool. Trekkies have actually attempted to explain Star Trek scientifically. If you had the same Trekkies try to explain Mass Effect, they'd probably jump off a window.

Please... Star Trek is far worse than Mass Effect. At least until Mass Effect 2 came along.

Consistent with its own rules? Are you kidding me?
Breathing masks don't even break modern science, let alone lore.

You are pulling everything off your ass. Nowhere in lore were oxygen masks banned, it's just an argument you bring up every time you don't like something.

Here's a tip:

Artists will sometimes make things that you DON'T LIKE.
Get it? Like? Not like. 

You can either get over it, or carry an entire community with 2 years of constant whining on non-issues, more appropriate to a spoiled 8 year old brat.

And you want to know what I mean by carry?
I am referring to the PM sitting in my inbox folder, of a moderator openly admitting to breaking forum rules because "'x group of people will turn it into a sh*tstorm sooner or later". 

Don't you dare have the nerve to ask sympathy from the rest of us.

Firstly, that's really classy, Phaedon. But what do I expect from somebody who seems to believe BioWare can do no wrong.

Secondly, whether something is a "non-issue" is a matter of opinion. Just because they aren't issues for you, doesn't mean they aren't for others. If we're going to throw the "how dare you have the nerve" comment around, I counter with saying "how dare you try and trivialise other people's concerns just because they aren't your own!" Different people like different things about the game, and not everybody just blindly follows BioWare to hell and back and agrees with their every move just because their name is on the package of the game box. The fact that I've been, as you so eloquently put it, "constantly whining" for about 2 years just shows how much BioWare has changed lately considering  for the 10 years or so before that I didn't whine at all. Pretty much all my serious issues with them and their decisions have come in the last 2-3 years. So if I've been happy and adoring them for more than 10 years and then in the last 2-3 I'm angry, why does that mean the problem is my fault?

Finally, and more to the point, I'd really like you to explain exactly how breathing masks that aren't even attached to any tank or anything, being worn by people without tanks at that, can protect their wearers from the various dangers of space, particularly the effects of toxins, gravity, pressure, extreme heat and cold, radiation, etc. since you're apparently so well versed in what's scientifically accurate and what isn't.

[JeffZero]

Star Trek wasn't too bad until Voyager, really. At least not Starfleet-wise. Alien cultures could often do whatever the hell they wanted, granted.

[Terror_K]

Bleachrude wrote...

Again, I agree with the consensus that it breaks immersion to not be wearing suits and masks (if Garrus and Grunt who actually wear the full package pretty much no humans should be able to go without) but I do disagree with the notion that it is simply a case of bioware being "unreasonable".

Jack's modelling did take time and effort and if Jack got a suit therre would be multiple demands.
1. Why does only Jack get a suit AND a ship outfit. Quite rightly, many people would point out that their characters like Garrus and Grunt should come with the same options. Same thing with Miranda's catsuit and jacob's bodysuit....

2. If you give Jack a suit, what was the point of spending all those resources on modelling jack and her tattoos when you pretty much won't see them other than on Normandy 

The problem is that characters like miranda, jack and jacob, part of their initial design specs _IS_ their specific character look and suits pretty much cover that up...Something similar goes for facial animation in that you're spending a lot of effort (time and money) that won't actually get used....

ME2's Jack is clearly a Riddick expy (which I have no problem with since the mass effect games have ALWAYS been homages to space opera/science fiction) but one where part of the defining features breaks immersion in many cases.

As an aside, I id like how in Kasumi's and Samara's LM you actually had to take OFF the armour since it would actually make you stick out..Frankly, in the main game, there should be more of this..

That's why I thought everybody should have had clothing for on the Normandy and certain safe zones, and clothing for on the job (which ME1 kind of did). Or at the very least, clothing for more hazardous places.

I can see that there's this basic deal with making each character look iconic all the time, and I can also see the point in not wanting to hide faces too often, but here's the things when it comes down to it:-

Where do you talk to you squaddies and have them in dialogue most of the time? Answer: either on the Normandy, or in a place that's not particularly dangerous?

Is it impossible to have an iconic look that's practical too? Answer: No. If Samara or Miranda had merely zipped the cleavage and donned a proper, sealed helmet, they'd largely be okay. Jack is a harder issue, but I've seen plenty of suggestions regarding her having personalised armour with rough decals somewhat resembling her tattoos.

How often do you enter a dangerous, hazardous area anyway? Answer: Not often, and most of the ones that you do enter don't have a lot of dialogue. The Migrant Fleet is the main exception to the rule here, but you really do need fully-clothed and sealed people with helmets there. It along with Tarith were the two big offenders in ME2, especially if you took Jack. Ascension made it pretty clear how careful and concerned the quarians are with contamination when the book's heroes were under quarrantine and had to be decontaminated, double-checked and fully-suited up before even being allowed to leave their ship. ME2 made a complete mockery of that. The point is, it's not even that commonplace for the most part, so it's rare you'd even be hiding your characters' faces.

Can you make helmets that still expose most of the face? Answer: Yes. There are even a couple for Shepard in ME2, and plenty of people have posted images on these forums before with bubble-faced dome helmets and other variations that still reveal most of the characters' face beyond the visor.

The overall point here is, there's no excuse for it.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Hey guys check page 4 of the gamer pdf file Liara is sporting a breathing mask! I can't believe they brought that dumb thing back! That was more annoying then Jack shirtless!

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Indeed, and the suspension of disbelief can differ from person to person, as it does here.

Which is why it makes most sense to aim for as little inconsistency as possible.
That way a bigger audience cna enjoy the work.

You said youself - you don't care and didn't notice. Hence why changing it would have no impact on you but it would have on those who prefer more consistency and common sense in the narrative.

Exactly right. It's certainly the easier thing to do, given ME's original approach. I'm not disagreeing that the switch to masks is inconsistent, or that it didn't cause problems for some fans. All I'm saying is that for myself the change wasn't a huge deal. If it would make the larger ME fanbase happier to switch back to hardsuits, I'm perfectly content with that style returning.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 décembre 2011 - 05:45 .

[LPPrince]

Would much rather have helmets in place of breathing masks. Makes sense and doesn't make me puzzled.

[didymos1120]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Hey guys check page 4 of the gamer pdf file Liara is sporting a breathing mask! I can't believe they brought that dumb thing back! That was more annoying then Jack shirtless!

Um, yeah, we know.  It's kind what the entire thread is about.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

The Recon Hood is not a helmet

Nope but it is a fully sealed mask that obscures facial features. (Which bioware wants to show off apparently, which again leads into the conflicting ideals)

More like "ram in our faces". Lord know the universe woulkd implode if there's a level or two where we coudln't see the NPC's faces...
I mean, we're only staring at Sheps back for 80% of the game....

I'm surprised you ain't a Tali fan. You know, with her helmet on all the time, etc. I mean if you take her on missions you don't have that problem. And also Legion.

On a more serious note, you even get to toggle Shep's headgear. Bascially they only need to do the same for the companions, with exception of Tali and Legion of course. So everyone can wear or not wear what they want.

Oh and another thing. Oxygen tanks. You should think that in places without any air you need them. But you already have your assorted weaponry in the place (your back).

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 décembre 2011 - 06:32 .