905 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

Phaedon wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
Artificial gravity doesn't work for the arms though, as all the enemies you defeat right after float toward the sky. It is also demonstrated by the glass from the elevator you shoot out that there is no artificial gravity on the arms.

That was why I assumed some sort of adhesive property with the boots.

Except that that would require adhesive properties to the boots of every single citizen living in the Wards, and the geth, who have no reason to just float (their feet still touch the ground). The idea of magnetism is retarded for obvious reasons (any magnet instantly falling to the ground, for one)

The possibility of limited artificial gravity is probable, since, should there be vacuum in the center of the closed Citadel, everyone, no matter magnetism, or adhesive plot device substance, would immediately fly there. Not to mention that the breathable air couldn't just vanish into thin air.

The effect of the artificial gravity changing and becoming more limited, actually makes some sense, not only does it explain the way the dead enemies are lifted (the power of enough projectiles should detach them from the ground), and the atmosphere would not be dense enough to breathe.

Indeed maybe it has something to do with personal ME fields deployed through the armor somehow?

I am unsure about what you are inferring with the civilian example here as I am referring to when shep is outside the elevator (and thus walking on a place no one normally would, you even walk along side elevatoer going down which to our perspective is going forward).

[Phaedon]

Nashiktal wrote...
Indeed maybe it has something to do with personal ME fields deployed through the armor somehow? 

I am unsure about what you are inferring with the civilian example here as I am referring to when shep is outside the elevator (and thus walking on a place no one normally would, you even walk along side elevatoer going down which to our perspective is going forward).

Well, obviously gravity works differently in different places around the Citadel, even when the arms are open. But, surely, maintenance staff, especially the Keepers should have access to the limited gravity place? 

Maybe there are ladders of sorts that we can't see from Shep's POV though.

Modifié par Phaedon, 02 janvier 2012 - 01:09 .

[didymos1120]

Phaedon wrote...

The magnetic boots are something that Lotion just came up with because he doesn't understand artifical gravity.

Actually, there's good evidence for such existing. In two instances we've fought in microgravity environments: the climb up the Citadel and Heretic Station.  You can't invoke artificial gravity to explain why Shep and Co. stay firmly attached to the floor, so something else must be responsible.  Magnetism is a reasonable inference, and supported by the cutscene that follows Shepard exiting the elevator in ME1.

Also, this from Retribution:

He opened the airlock’s exterior hatch and stepped down carefully onto the floor of the docking bay. The enviro-suit had magnetized boots for space walks, but they weren’t necessary here—the artificial gravity generated by the station’s mass effect fields was still active.

If basic enviro-suits have them...

[Bat32391]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is about the breathing masks

[Nashiktal]

Phaedon wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
Indeed maybe it has something to do with personal ME fields deployed through the armor somehow? 

I am unsure about what you are inferring with the civilian example here as I am referring to when shep is outside the elevator (and thus walking on a place no one normally would, you even walk along side elevatoer going down which to our perspective is going forward).

Well, obviously gravity works differently in different places around the Citadel, even when the arms are open. But, surely, maintenance staff, especially the Keepers should have access to the limited gravity place? 

Maybe there are ladders of sorts that we can't see from Shep's POV though.

Oh we definitely see access hatches around the place, and in fact I am sure shep even uses one of them to get inside the citadel. Although as for actual maintenence I am partial to the idea that they use unmanned drones for most basic repairs and anything else is done by specialists using whatever method of spacewalking they have. (Be it tethered rope, fancy ME field devices or etc)

Of course that is all conjecture.

[Phaedon]

didymos1120 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The magnetic boots are something that Lotion just came up with because he doesn't understand artifical gravity.

Actually, there's good evidence for such existing. In two instances we've fought in microgravity environments: the climb up the Citadel and Heretic Station.  You can't invoke artificial gravity to explain why Shep and Co. stay firmly attached to the floor, so something else must be responsible.  Magnetism is a reasonable inference, and supported by the cutscene that follows Shepard exiting the elevator in ME1.

Also, this from Retribution:

He opened the airlock’s exterior hatch and stepped down carefully onto the floor of the docking bay. The enviro-suit had magnetized boots for space walks, but they weren’t necessary here—the artificial gravity generated by the station’s mass effect fields was still active.

If basic enviro-suits have them...

Actually, if you take a look at a specific portion of what you posted: " for space walks"
That rules out the interior of ships, I think. Along with other facts and ramifications that that would have, but I'm a bit sleepy to post what I can think of right now.

It's possible that "magnetic paths" are the futuristic versions of maintenance ladders needed for sections of the exterior of ships. Not sure what you mean by the Heretic station, though.

[Phaedon]

Nashiktal wrote...
Oh we definitely see access hatches around the place, and in fact I am sure shep even uses one of them to get inside the citadel. Although as for actual maintenence I am partial to the idea that they use unmanned drones for most basic repairs and anything else is done by specialists using whatever method of spacewalking they have. (Be it tethered rope, fancy ME field devices or etc)

Of course that is all conjecture.

That wouldn't make sense though. It's the Keepers who have to do the maintenance for millenia. And there are no signs of Prothean/Keeper/Reaper drones, are there? They also need a way to be able to visit the exterior of the Citadel, which the lack of atmosphere in the ending mission of ME1 denies.

[Nashiktal]

Bat32391 wrote...

I honestly don't see what the big deal is about the breathing masks

Alright so would you be fine if a character was shown casually sitting in a fire wearing nothing but pajama pants? No special properties just pajama pants. If not that then how about wandering around noveria outside wearing nothing but underwear. Or alliance soldiers running around in dresses while fighting the geth?

There has to be a balance when you make breaks from reality. In light doses you can call upon Bellisario's maxim and there will be no big deal, but if you take it to far you edge into the MST3K mantra and you can no longer take the work seriously positive messages and all.

For example bioware's attempt for morally grey story choices. Why should the impact of killing or rewriting the heretic geth (a very stark decision that can cause soul searching in those not already jaded) be taken seriously when ME doesn't even take itself seriously? 

[Nashiktal]

Phaedon wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
Oh we definitely see access hatches around the place, and in fact I am sure shep even uses one of them to get inside the citadel. Although as for actual maintenence I am partial to the idea that they use unmanned drones for most basic repairs and anything else is done by specialists using whatever method of spacewalking they have. (Be it tethered rope, fancy ME field devices or etc)

Of course that is all conjecture.

That wouldn't make sense though. It's the Keepers who have to do the maintenance for millenia. And there are no signs of Prothean/Keeper/Reaper drones, are there? They also need a way to be able to visit the exterior of the Citadel, which the lack of atmosphere in the ending mission of ME1 denies.

Good point, although when it comes to the keeper nothing really surprises me. In fact I have always had a little theory that keepers were cyborgs or biological "machines" that would allow them to service everywhere on the citadel but that isn't really relevant I guess.

[Nashiktal]

Phaedon wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The magnetic boots are something that Lotion just came up with because he doesn't understand artifical gravity.

Actually, there's good evidence for such existing. In two instances we've fought in microgravity environments: the climb up the Citadel and Heretic Station.  You can't invoke artificial gravity to explain why Shep and Co. stay firmly attached to the floor, so something else must be responsible.  Magnetism is a reasonable inference, and supported by the cutscene that follows Shepard exiting the elevator in ME1.

Also, this from Retribution:

He opened the airlock’s exterior hatch and stepped down carefully onto the floor of the docking bay. The enviro-suit had magnetized boots for space walks, but they weren’t necessary here—the artificial gravity generated by the station’s mass effect fields was still active.

If basic enviro-suits have them...

Actually, if you take a look at a specific portion of what you posted: " for space walks"
That rules out the interior of ships, I think. Along with other facts and ramifications that that would have, but I'm a bit sleepy to post what I can think of right now.

It's possible that "magnetic paths" are the futuristic versions of maintenance ladders needed for sections of the exterior of ships. Not sure what you mean by the Heretic station, though.

Actually that sounds like a good idea.

[didymos1120]

nitefyre410 wrote...

you know I tried to delete and purged that fact because dispite the face that said person blood would freeze nigh instantely in vaccum...

Vacuum. Does. Not. Work. That. Way.  This has been debunked how many times in this thread now?

yeah Brown Dwarf...one of  the most hostly  enivorments you can think off....

Depends on the brown dwarf.  Some are quite hot.  Others can be very, very cool.  Of course, in this case, they foolishly made Mnemosyne a young and still-active one, and even gave us a temperature: 1800K.

[JohnLawson]

You guys are just over-reacting over a little detail that the game creators felt that was needed in that part of the story. I don't even know how this thread is still active.

[Iakus]

Alex_SM wrote...

The clothing issue would be like the easiest thing to fix.

Instead of giving gazillions of random combinations, or unique clothes, they could just use an "unique style" and give every character a set of outfits for different situations, all of them following the style of the character.

That would fix the lore and plausibility problems (if done right), and would still keep a unique feeling for every character. And I bet it doesn't get more than a few hours of modeling and texturing.

Iconic range.

[nitefyre410]

didymos1120 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

you know I tried to delete and purged that fact because dispite the face that said person blood would freeze nigh instantely in vaccum...

Vacuum. Does. Not. Work. That. Way.  This has been debunked how many times in this thread now?

yeah Brown Dwarf...one of  the most hostly  enivorments you can think off....

Depends on the brown dwarf.  Some are quite hot.  Others can be very, very cool.  Of course, in this case, they foolishly made Mnemosyne a young and still-active one, and even gave us a temperature: 1800K.

 

Puncuated. for. empahieses.


I am. not .here. to .agrue.  with . you. about. science. fact. nor. do. I care. did . you. miss. that. point.


Now  if  would like to inform that  me  "REAL " vaccum does not work that  than thank you  I was aware that a "Real" vaccum would wouldn't like that... which all  really mask this whole mess and long drawn out the debate about breating mask even  more pointles If the  realism behind the most basic  thing about  Space in Sci-fi is NOT realistic( a shock  I know fiction not real.)


As far the  Brown Dwarf... meh don;t need the specfics  the point too hot or too cold still = me dead.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 02 janvier 2012 - 01:43 .

[Bluko]

Pardon me for not reading all the 25 pages of comments. But here's my 2 cents again for what it's worth.

I do not care if Breathing Masks are in the game. But I want to maintain the option of wearing an actual helmet along with a full sealed armor suit for all squadmates. Shepard has the option to do so and was always required to in ME2. Why this wasn't applicable for all squadmates seems very questionable to me, and the conclusion I must come to was that ME2 was "rushed". Look I don't care if people run around in bikinis, speedos, and breathing masks in their game. Much like I don't care if people color Shepard's armor pink. If they want to be silly and light-hearted about the game that's their choice. All I'm asking for myself and others is the option to maintain a reasonable level of immersion in the game.

I get Jack is crazy, but she's so crazy she never wears armor? Why can't she have some "pyscho" looking armor when the time arises? And I understand you want each squadmate to look unique, hence the lack of ME1's generic armors. And hey that's fine. Provided of course I still have the option to put my squadmates into something that seems appropriate for going into space or a really hostile environment. Being stuck with little more then clothing and one re-color option is not very impressive.

I dunno what all happens in ME3, but every environment being safe enough to run around with nothing more then a Breather Mask is pretty laughable. You can't honestly expect folks to believe that everywhere Shepard goes in outer space an Earthlike paradise. That's just ludicrous. It's especially bonkers when they're already two species that are stuck in suits all the time because of environmental issues.


Also Shepard and company are fighting the Reapers. Surely there will be some sort of space battle. You realize if you're boarding enemy ships you need to have a full sealed suit? See the enemy can easily kill unprepared intruders simply by killing parts of the life-support around the ship. It would be quite hilarious if Shepard boarded a Reaper and it simply killed Shepard and company by blowing out the oxygen.

Oops should have worn a helmet.

Actually why didn't the Collectors do this? They could have, I assume, shut off their life support. (Surely parts of such stations are somewhat seperated in case of damage?) Even if it is universal why didn't the Collectors just bow out the oxygen and kill Shepard and Team as they were escaping? That would have been the sensible thing to do.

Look the reality is if you're boarding an enemy vessel or station you need a full suit. And that's just common sense Even kids know that, just like they know scuba divers need "breathing masks". And the only excuse not to is if you don't have a suit. But really Shepard and his team are to dim witted to that? Does Cerberus not have the money to do that? Granted we could probably chalk this up to Cerberus's amazing inpetitude. Still you'd think a person who died in outer space would think about this stuff and take some reasonable precautions.

Good Idea


Not So Good Idea



Look the casual attire of Mass Effect 2 did not "ruin" the game. But it surely did not make the game any better or impressive to those of us who didn't expect Mass Effect to trivalize the dangers of space exploration and combat. I hope this will not be the case again in ME3, and that ME2 was simply a bit of fluke in this regard.

Modifié par Bluko, 02 janvier 2012 - 01:49 .

[ODST 5723]

crimzontearz wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
people do realize that iconic looks and functionality are not mutually exclusive right?

Correct.  But if they aren't 100% in sync, it's not the end of the world.

so...if that is correct then you agree that it was a choice made by the devs....which is either insulting or indicating laziness on their part. why should people not criticize them in the hope that this mistake is not repeated in the next game? I mean given the fact it is happening again I'd say people have not complained enough

No.  I don't agree with that at all.

OK then explain how it is not

Because the only two choices you provided are rooted in subjective bias. 

The choice doesn't even have to be between something insulting or due to laziness.  I don't believe either to be true and there are other options you didn't put on the table.

[Andorfiend]

Phaedon wrote...

A suit that doesn't protect you for more than ten seconds is NOT, under any definition a real survival suit, as it fails to accomplish its most basic goal.

You know, being built to actually help you survive.

*facepalm* The hardsuits are combat armour AND spacesuits. Nothing can protect you flawlessly against every hazard.

I have a full scuba rig and a 3mm wetsuit. It will allow me to survive, potentially for hours, in an enviroment that would kill me within a couple of minutes were I naked. It will not keep me alive in water much colder than 60 deg F for very long, cold water diving calls for much heavier wetsuits, or ideally a dry suit.

My wetsuit will also cook me alive in perfectly comfortable shirt sleeves weather, if I'm not in the water.

It will not stop a bullet.

A bullet proof vest will not help me dive.

A cat suit will not help me either to dive, or survive small arms fire.

Trying to argue that a bulletproof vest is no better than a stylistically different from a catsuit in combat because it will not let you survive in space is a pretty stupid argument, don't you think? Why do you feel comfortable claiming a catsuit is no worse than a space suit in a vacuum because neither one will save you from a liquid nitrogen shower?

Your arguement amounts to claiming that it makes as much sense to drive a cell phone as a motorcycle since neither one of them makes waffles.

[ODST 5723]

Bluko wrote...
Look the casual attire of Mass Effect 2 did not "ruin" the game. But it surely did not make the game any better or impressive to those of us who didn't expect Mass Effect to trivalize the dangers of space exploration and combat. I hope this will not be the case again in ME3, and that ME2 was simply a bit of fluke in this regard.

ME1 trivialized the dangers of space exploration and combat, too.  However, as I mentioned earlier, it seems ok to forget those instances and present ME1 in an overly romanticized way to show "consistency" when the facts dispute that or there are debatable examples which would require exact knowledge of things not explained in the ME universe.

Which is what prevents the arguments from holding up to scrutiny.  They depend on faith and rationalizing the visual depiction to the lore in a game whose mechanics often violate that lore or create inconsistencies through gameplay with what you see in cutscenes or the Codex

Ex: Jenkins hardsuit and shields failing in a way not represented in gameplay. 

Ex. The battle up the Citadel tower vs. the tower once it was pierced by Sovereign vs. the minimal explanation of the Citadel in the codex and their depictions of vacuum and gravity.

Ex. The Codex in ME1 indicating that Sovereign was a Reaper and reverting it to a geth warship in ME2.

Ex. Taking  the stats of all of the tiered armors, weapons and upgrades at face value

Earlier I also referenced that if someone wants to discuss consistency and reality, then there will be follow-up questions for the use of the same hardsuit for each type of hazard.  Hell, even the way the hazards are presented is ridiculous since you can hop in the Mako and you're A-OK and hop out a couple seconds later as if there was no impact on your suit whatsoever.

But breathingg masks in an out of context scenario are an issue and ME1 presented this tremendous hard science universe even though it took several liberties of its own.  The way some people's suspension of disbelief works baffles me sometimes.

[ODST 5723]

Andorfiend wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

A suit that doesn't protect you for more than ten seconds is NOT, under any definition a real survival suit, as it fails to accomplish its most basic goal.

You know, being built to actually help you survive.

*facepalm* The hardsuits are combat armour AND spacesuits. Nothing can protect you flawlessly against every hazard.

I have a full scuba rig and a 3mm wetsuit. It will allow me to survive, potentially for hours, in an enviroment that would kill me within a couple of minutes were I naked. It will not keep me alive in water much colder than 60 deg F for very long, cold water diving calls for much heavier wetsuits, or ideally a dry suit.

My wetsuit will also cook me alive in perfectly comfortable shirt sleeves weather, if I'm not in the water.

It will not stop a bullet.

A bullet proof vest will not help me dive.

A cat suit will not help me either to dive, or survive small arms fire.

Trying to argue that a bulletproof vest is no better than a stylistically different from a catsuit in combat because it will not let you survive in space is a pretty stupid argument, don't you think? Why do you feel comfortable claiming a catsuit is no worse than a space suit in a vacuum because neither one will save you from a liquid nitrogen shower?

Your arguement amounts to claiming that it makes as much sense to drive a cell phone as a motorcycle since neither one of them makes waffles.

His point is that the hardsuit is not a survival suit and if you're saying it's combat armor and a space suit then it's not designed for protecting against the variety of extreme conditions you wear them in (heat, cold, caustic, etc.)

He's simply pointing out that the notion of the ME1 hardsuit has been romanticized and given more credit that it deserves when it really didn't provide and likely wouldn't have provided any significant benefits in all of those scenarios.  So it failed as both a gameplay mechanic and as a strong example of hard science for ME lore.  Especially given the lack of any technical explanations.  Thus, the visuals and gameplay mechanics are the only evidence and they do not appear to be reasonably reflective of the reality of the ME world any more than ME2 gear.

It's an illusion and smokescreen.

[didymos1120]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Hell, even the way the hazards are presented is ridiculous since you can hop in the Mako and you're A-OK and hop out a couple seconds later as if there was no impact on your suit whatsoever.

Don't forget the whole "Put one squadmate in Devlon armor and everyone is magically protected" thing.

[Xeranx]

Vapaä wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The physical force of all that firepower is going to have some sort of kinetic effect. Unless you are referring to when he loses control of saren in which case no idea.

I'm referring to when he loses control of Saren, I assume that's just for aestethics reasons and I'm fine with it, but if one want to prove that ME1 is hard sci-fi, good luck

iakus wrote...

::sigh::

There was sound in space in ME1
There was sound in space in ME2

There were sealed helmets for hazardous areas in ME1
There were allergen masks in ME2

I can do that too:

There was sound in space in ME1
There was sound in space in ME2

Shepard could carry 150 invisible objects in ME1
Shepard couls only carry his/her visible weapons in ME2

I'm actually sighing at this point.

Sound in space is for the audience's benefit.  Any sounds heard while in space on any show is to provide a tertiary sound for the audience because not having it is like dead air on the radio.  If there isn't sound to coincide with the action happening on-screen then it's boring.  It doesn't mean that there actually is sound in space.  You won't hear a ships engine if you're outside of it and it's being prepped for travel.  You may hear air venting if you're directly in it's blast in space however.  That means within a foot or two of it.  Farther than that I'm unsure about.

Shepard carrying 150 items is gameplay.   You can't talk about that aspect as a method of trying to challenge the breath mask angle and really expect to be taken seriously.  Either approach the topic correctly or don't.  There's nothing that suggests that Shepard even knows that he or she is carrying more than what's immediately usuable by them at any point in time.  The only person that does know what's available is you the player.  Seriously, if you're going to argue the 150 items you should also argue why Shepard doesn't automatically duck out of the way when health gets low. <_<

[Sgt Stryker]

ODST 5723 wrote...
His point is that the hardsuit is not a survival suit and if you're saying it's combat armor and a space suit then it's not designed for protecting against the variety of extreme conditions you wear them in (heat, cold, caustic, etc.)

He's simply pointing out that the notion of the ME1 hardsuit has been romanticized and given more credit that it deserves when it really didn't provide and likely wouldn't have provided any significant benefits in all of those scenarios.  So it failed as both a gameplay mechanic and as a strong example of hard science for ME lore.  Especially given the lack of any technical explanations.  Thus, the visuals and gameplay mechanics are the only evidence and they do not appear to be reasonably reflective of the reality of the ME world any more than ME2 gear.

It's an illusion and smokescreen.

So this is equivalent to this now?

[ODST 5723]

It could depending upon the context and how its reflected in gameplay.

What's that hardsuit made of? Is Conrad Verner's replica N7 suit the same quality as Shpeard's? Same functionality? If not, Jack may be better protected or equally suited for certain conditions.

And since we're talking about visuals in a video game, is Jack really only wearing a breather mask or is it symbolic?

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 02:57 .

[ODST 5723]

didymos1120 wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Hell, even the way the hazards are presented is ridiculous since you can hop in the Mako and you're A-OK and hop out a couple seconds later as if there was no impact on your suit whatsoever.

Don't forget the whole "Put one squadmate in Devlon armor and everyone is magically protected" thing.

I try to hold some cards back rather than showing my entire hand.  Thank god you didn't mention using omni-gel to repair external damage to a vehicle when no one exited the damn thing.