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[Sgt Stryker]

Unless otherwise indicated, we should assume that a replica knock-off of the armor worn by the most famous human in the galaxy does not have the same functionality as actual military-grade armor. For all we know, Conrad bought that get-up in a gift shop on the Citadel.

[ODST 5723]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Unless otherwise indicated, we should assume that a replica knock-off of the armor worn by the most famous human in the galaxy does not have the same functionality as actual military-grade armor. For all we know, Conrad bought that get-up in a gift shop on the Citadel.

You can assume that.  I'll assume that he was rich until he spent his entire life savings on an N7 Onyx X

[Sgt Stryker]

Eh, Conrad never struck me as a particularly rich guy.

[ODST 5723]

He's clearly loaded and immune to indoctrination. He may even be the first true Human Spectre, kept secret from the entire galaxy and using fandom and ineptitude as the perfect cover for his missions.

And his possible death in ME1 was faked because his partner, Refund Guy, blew his cover in those playthroughs.

[Praetor Knight]

ODST 5723 wrote...

He's clearly loaded and immune to indoctrination. He may even be the first true Human Spectre, kept secret from the entire galaxy and using fandom and ineptitude as the perfect cover for his missions.

And his possible death in ME1 was faked because his partner, Refund Guy, blew his cover in those playthroughs.

Kinda reminds me of the man who knew too little or maybe Maxwell Smart!

[Sgt Stryker]

Where do Armistan Banes and Pvt. Window come into all this, though?

[kenobi71]

I don't know why Bioware don't just make alternate appearance pack 3, with helmets for all characters. Then everybody would be happy, including bioware, they'd get money for it. So a win for everybody.

Are you listening Evil Chris.

To be honest i can see both sides of the argument , but i hope breathing masks are my only complaint for mass effect 3, cause if it's my only complaint i will be happy, cause you know this game is gonna rock.

Happy New Year from Scotland!

[ODST 5723]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Where do Armistan Banes and Pvt. Window come into all this, though?

Pvt. Window is really Banes in disguise.  He's an agent of the Chinese People's Federation who has been Conrad's contact in the Alliance for years under various identities, allowing him to influence Shepard's career for years.  He was also the one who suggested that Nihlus become Shepard's mentor since Conrad's been looking for a prime candidate to become the posterboy for humanity allow him to operate even deeper in the shadows.  Thus, the meetings in ME1 and possible meeting in ME2 were all a show.

Pvt. Window and Conrad's memoirs were then adapted by an excellent hanar screenplay writer into the initial treatments for the Blasto: The First Hanar Spectre series.

[ODST 5723]

jreezy wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Unless otherwise indicated, we should assume that a replica knock-off of the armor worn by the most famous human in the galaxy does not have the same functionality as actual military-grade armor. For all we know, Conrad bought that get-up in a gift shop on the Citadel.

You can assume that.  I'll assume that he was rich until he spent his entire life savings on an N7 Onyx X

Actually I think Conrad himself says his N7 armor is just a knock-off.

KEEP YOUR FACTS OUT OF THIS FANTASY LAND

[didymos1120]

He does say it was costly:

"Oh, they make some pretty convincing replicas these days, if you're willing to pay."

and:

"Getting the whole getup was pretty expensive, but my wife was really supportive. She even paid for my shuttle fare off-world!"

Of course, it's Conrad. His tendency to, um, make sh!t up doesn't make him a reliable source on, well, anything really.

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 janvier 2012 - 03:38 .

[ODST 5723]

I like your facts. You can stay.

[crimzontearz]

ODST 5723 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
people do realize that iconic looks and functionality are not mutually exclusive right?

Correct.  But if they aren't 100% in sync, it's not the end of the world.

so...if that is correct then you agree that it was a choice made by the devs....which is either insulting or indicating laziness on their part. why should people not criticize them in the hope that this mistake is not repeated in the next game? I mean given the fact it is happening again I'd say people have not complained enough

No.  I don't agree with that at all.

OK then explain how it is not

Because the only two choices you provided are rooted in subjective bias. 

The choice doesn't even have to be between something insulting or due to laziness.  I don't believe either to be true and there are other options you didn't put on the table.

and yet it can be summarized as either or regardless of the more minute reasons....how so you may ask?

simple, as you know the creation of a character involves someone from the higherups requesting a concept art from the concept artist, or a batch of them. Once a certain "look" or "feel" has been reached, after some back and forth depending on how quickly an agreement is reached, then the artist works with the 3D modellers and other programmers to render the character (yes I am oversimplifying)....but the thing is these concepts need to be approved before moving down the road or implementation.
So at some point someone or a group of someone looked at all the possible concepts for Jack and Miranda and allowed the ridiculous high heels + catsuit and the nipplebelt armor to go through. So, in spite of all the embellishments you can put on this decision the most basic possible reasoning that do encompass pretty much all other branches are either

1: the devs called it quits and rather than keep trying for something that looked "iconic" but also not spit in the face of what was established in ME1 they just said screw it and passed those looks even tho they knew they were just not in tune with what ME1 tried to do (which is laziness)

or

2: they made the conscious decision of passing those looks rather than something that could have been iconic AND make sense while thinking that the players would completely overlook it or be too dumb to question it much which I do find insulting....which I understand you might disagree with...but I do find that insulting.

there is a third option which is assuming that the devs were actually too dumb to find those looks rather dumb given the context but I cannot force myself to be open to that possibility


can you find other basic reasoning behind it?

[ODST 5723]

Easily

1) Artistic expression
2) Acknowledging that they did not create a hard science world, they anticipated that the majority would support minor changes in style and immaterial minutia by recognizing that they're telling a story with science on top rather than a story told through science.
3) Limited resources leading to a series of trade-offs based on their priority list, not yours.

What you feel is insulting is immaterial. What you feel is lazy is immaterial. Because at the end of the day you can't prove it to anyone else. We'll have to take your word for it. But that's your MO. You look for what proves your subjective position to yourself and then try to jam your words in the mouths of others as if it has any bearing on the other party.

You see laziness, i see acceptable trade-offs. You see things being affronts to your concept of the universe, i see variable minutia that really doesn't have an impact on the big picture because I recognize that the visuals don't tell the entire story.

Frankly, all you're telling me is that you're too stubborn and inept to fill in blanks when presented with the opportunity because you need to have everything spelled out. And that even if something is spelled out, you're the kind of person that will feel insulted and offended that they didn't read your mind and cater to your whims with their artistic vision.

We could argue this for days and i'll guarantee you that you'll be utterly convinced of your position and your superiority even though you won't get me to budge a bit since you're pushing an argument I feel is crap.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 04:06 .

[ODST 5723]

Calinstel wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Unless otherwise indicated, we should assume that a replica knock-off of the armor worn by the most famous human in the galaxy does not have the same functionality as actual military-grade armor. For all we know, Conrad bought that get-up in a gift shop on the Citadel.

You can assume that.  I'll assume that he was rich until he spent his entire life savings on an N7 Onyx X

Conrad states quite clearly that it is REPLICA armor and they make it pretty convincing too.  It's fake.

Why can't you let me have this fatasy?  I know what he said.

[Iakus]

Well I think I've had my dose of reductio ad absurdum for the day...

[ODST 5723]

It's too late. You killed it.

[crimzontearz]

ODST 5723 wrote...
Easily
1) Artistic expression
2) Acknowledging that they did not create a hard science world, they anticipated that the majority would support minor changes in style and immaterial minutia by recognizing that they're telling a story with science on top rather than a story told through science.
3) Limited resources leading to a series of trade-offs based on their priority list, not yours.
What you feel is insulting is immaterial. What you feel is lazy is immaterial. Because at the end of the day you can't prove it to anyone else. We'll have to take your word for it. But that's your MO. You look for what proves your subjective position to yourself and then try to jam your words in the mouths of others as if it has any bearing on the other party.

You see laziness, i see acceptable trade-offs. You see things being affronts to your concept of the universe, i see variable minutia that really doesn't have an impact on the big picture because I recognize that the visuals don't tell the entire story.

Frankly, all you're telling me is that you're too stubborn and inept to fill in blanks when presented with the opportunity because you need to have everything spelled out. And that even if something is spelled out, you're the kind of person that will feel insulted and offended that they didn't read your mind and cater to your whims with their artistic vision.

We could argue this for days and i'll guarantee you that you'll be utterly convinced of your position and your superiority even though you won't get me to budge a bit since you're pushing an argument I feel is crap.

oh how adorable...the good old "I'm pulling weak defenses for Bioware out of my *** but I am above you because you are whining/stubborn and thus it's useless to continue"

no

1: we already agreed that the artistic direction and the verosimilitude of the attire can be reconciled...moot point
2: failed in the preamble. ME was a good high 3 or low 4 on the mohs scale of sci fi hardness but ME2 is a good point lower, is they remained on the same level you might have been right. Also, we are Always just a vocal minority when it suits people in order to dismiss whatever argument is being presented...nice try tho
3: their point being wanting a unique ownable and recognizable look for the squadmates which, as you yourself said before is NOT unreconcilable with it actually being functional and coherent with the standards set by ME1 as provem by Miranda's alternate appearance DLC which brings us back to my original two points.

Are you going to defend DA2 too after this like the hardcore BDF did in the months leading to release? because half the crap you are using in your rethotics is almost word by word what was used back then if for different aspects of the game. Then the game came out and the tune changed....guess people needed a hard slap in the face to wake up.

visuals tell a great part of the story they set the mood and they allow for deeper immersion. Bioware had an artistic vision that was praised in ME1 and abandoned in ME2 in favor of the rule of cool. Extra Credits did a little episode on story telling and the visuals in a game, what was done in ME2 amounts to poor story telling when it comes to certain things like space catsuits. Yes you can supinely justify everything and cualk it up to thiabhing their game not ours, me? I'll keep voicing my opinion because it seems Bioware listens as proven by Miranda's armor, Ash's armor, the weapon packs Tali and Garrus the return of the RPG features and so on and so forth and the more people voice their opinion and their critiques the more things may change.

[Bluko]

ODST 5723 wrote...

ME1 trivialized the dangers of space exploration and combat, too.  However, as I mentioned earlier, it seems ok to forget those instances and present ME1 in an overly romanticized way to show "consistency" when the facts dispute that or there are debatable examples which would require exact knowledge of things not explained in the ME universe.

It did? Heck you could only spend so much time outside even with a suit on some worlds. The only thing ME2 has like this is that one Hammerhead mission.

ODST 5723 wrote... 

Which is what prevents the arguments from holding up to scrutiny.  They depend on faith and rationalizing the visual depiction to the lore in a game whose mechanics often violate that lore or create inconsistencies through gameplay with what you see in cutscenes or the Codex

Look I understand it's a game so it can niether be realistic nor can everything always perfectly depict the lore. However I expect the effort to be made to make the game look believable since this is suppose to be more then pure fantasy.

ODST 5723 wrote... 

Ex: Jenkins hardsuit and shields failing in a way not represented in gameplay. 

Why is this an issue? Jenkins gets pretty shot up. You may have forgotten but at Level 1 in ME1 those drones could take down your shields as well. Jenkins death is plausible, even if it is forced by cutscene.

ODST 5723 wrote...  

Ex. The battle up the Citadel tower vs. the tower once it was pierced by Sovereign vs. the minimal explanation of the Citadel in the codex and their depictions of vacuum and gravity.

 

What's this got to do with wearing a space suit? Also I believe the wards arms each maintain an atmospheric bubble. And it's never stated that when Shepard and crew jump out they are in a true "vacuum". But the fact remains they ain't stupid enough to just slap on breather mask and hope for the best.

They aren't even good breather masks as the eyes remain exposed. Pretty useless for encountering any sort of chemical weapon. Also an actual helmet would be far more comfortable, because they could probably maintain a reasonable temperature. Breathing masks only make sense in slightly lower oxygen environments or also perhaps if the oxygen content is too high.

ODST 5723 wrote...  

Ex. Taking  the stats of all of the tiered armors, weapons and upgrades at face value

 

What do the stats matter? Don't care about the stats. This is purely a cosmetic concern.

Wearing an actual suit makes sense. Like wearing a coat and snow pants in a blizzard.

Wearing a breathing mask makes little sense. Like wearing a t-shirt and shorts in a blizzard. Yeah you can do it, but trying to do so for more then 10 minutes is asking for frostbite. If you have a coat you wear it. It's is the sensible thing to do.

Again what is the reasoning to wear a breathing mask in place of a sealed helmet when the later does everything better whilst also having other uses? (Helmets can stop bullets/fragments from entering your skul, can provide data via a display, tinted view plate can protect against strong light sources, etc.) Not wearing a helmet seems awfully stupid just so your hair can feel the non-existant breeze.

ODST 5723 wrote...   

Earlier I also referenced that if someone wants to discuss consistency and reality, then there will be follow-up questions for the use of the same hardsuit for each type of hazard.  Hell, even the way the hazards are presented is ridiculous since you can hop in the Mako and you're A-OK and hop out a couple seconds later as if there was no impact on your suit whatsoever.

 

It was kind of silly, but it was more of gameplay thing to keep you in the Mako. The issue is not the suit, but the wearer. If you stayed outside too long you take health damage from the extreme cold/heat. I don't believe your suit suffers. Trust me your body will freeze before your coat does. If I come inside it's to warm myself up, not warm my coat. A suit only acts as insulation.

ODST 5723 wrote...    

But breathing masks in an out of context scenario are an issue and ME1 presented this tremendous hard science universe even though it took several liberties of its own.  The way some people's suspension of disbelief works baffles me sometimes.

Look I can tolerate someone using "Biotics" repeatedly for the sake of gameplay and fun. But sorry I cannot believe Humans can jump out into space with just a breathing mask. Nor can I believe people would willingly risk such. The idea is completely ridiculous and there is no effort made to explain why or how this could work. If there was some sort of Biotic/Magic ability that let's people swim in space, okay. Or if Kinetic Barriers could retain an atmosphere around the wearer, okay. But there is no lore explanation, in fact it's the opposite. And there is no excuse to do this for the "sake of gameplay".

You can still have someone wear a helmet and see their face. So again I ask why wear a "mouth mask" when you could wear a helmet? It looks stupid in every situation I saw it in ME2. Save perhaps the Flotilla. But again why not wear a full suit so you don't risk getting the Quarians sick?

Modifié par Bluko, 02 janvier 2012 - 04:59 .

[ODST 5723]

crimzontearz wrote...
oh how adorable...the good old "I'm pulling weak defenses for Bioware out of my *** but I am above you because you are whining/stubborn and thus it's useless to continue"

no

1: we already agreed that the artistic direction and the verosimilitude of the attire can be reconciled...moot point
2: failed in the preamble. ME was a good high 3 or low 4 on the mohs scale of sci fi hardness but ME2 is a good point lower, is they remained on the same level you might have been right. Also, we are Always just a vocal minority when it suits people in order to dismiss whatever argument is being presented...nice try tho
3: their point being wanting a unique ownable and recognizable look for the squadmates which, as you yourself said before is NOT unreconcilable with it actually being functional and coherent with the standards set by ME1 as provem by Miranda's alternate appearance DLC which brings us back to my original two points.

Are you going to defend DA2 too after this like the hardcore BDF did in the months leading to release? because half the crap you are using in your rethotics is almost word by word what was used back then if for different aspects of the game. Then the game came out and the tune changed....guess people needed a hard slap in the face to wake up.

visuals tell a great part of the story they set the mood and they allow for deeper immersion. Bioware had an artistic vision that was praised in ME1 and abandoned in ME2 in favor of the rule of cool. Extra Credits did a little episode on story telling and the visuals in a game, what was done in ME2 amounts to poor story telling when it comes to certain things like space catsuits. Yes you can supinely justify everything and cualk it up to thiabhing their game not ours, me? I'll keep voicing my opinion because it seems Bioware listens as proven by Miranda's armor, Ash's armor, the weapon packs Tali and Garrus the return of the RPG features and so on and so forth and the more people voice their opinion and their critiques the more things may change.

And all this says is that you're pushing your opinion and agenda convinced of your own viewpoint... and it differs from mine.  That something can be reconciled doesn't mean it has to be.  There can be other reasons.  Yet you want to pretend that nothing else exists because as long as you ignore it you don't have to reconcile those options with the viewpoint you've already covinced yourself of. 

While I'd like to see helmets, hardsuits and breather masks in proper contexts, they don't break the big picture storytelling for me and that's what's important to me.  The big picture.  Yet I can point to all the minutia in the world to drive home the point that you're presenting a crap argument that you are free to believe and free to speak.  But if you're going to go that route, then go back to ME1 and call a spade a spade.  There's enough inconsistency and rule of cool there too that means that ME2 can easily get a pass.  Especially in the context of middle-ground science laden Space Opera.

As for DAII, I found the banter and squad dynamics to be vastly superior to ME1 ad ME2 and if they can incoporate that into ME3, that's good IMO.

At the end of the day, whether or not your happy with ME doesn't mean anything to me.  But don't try to construct an invalid scenario with limited options that only support your position as if it's representative of my position.  First, it insults your own intelligence.  Second, it proves my point.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 04:58 .

[ODST 5723]

Bluko, we're not that far apart. If you ever get a chance to see some of my prior posts you'll probably recognize that. I just don't see an issue since I'm so used to the gameplay/lore balance being shifted towards gameplay because of convenience and sometimes necessity.

as for the whole quarian thing, since they're depicted in their suits the whole time. So there's a layer between them and anything I bring in. and given the additional explanation about it being less about immunity issues than it is about variable allergic reactions, I was even less concerned on the flotilla. But, even with Jack on board, if there was an issue I never had an issue imagining a sealed suit on her since I don't feel limited by what I see.

ex. Lack of decompression in ME1 after the final battle. I didn't see it. It's not explained. So while it's inconsistent I can fill in the blanks.

Just like I never pictured Miranda running around in every scenario as I saw her in-game. The same way that I didn't have an issue with changes in Halo to the look/abilities of MJOLNIR armor or went into Nerd Rage when there was a BR mentioned in a time period prior to Halo 2. Since the lore mentions they existed, I can easily assume that Chief may have used on on Alpha Halo since the Pillar of Autumn should have had some in its armory. Again, because the visuals and events I experienced in the game are a sliver of the reality of that world and not necessarily a full representation. I can do that just as easily for story-telling techniques as for necessary gameplay mechanics and balancing. Like in Dead Space 2 where Isaac only canonically took damage in certain scenarios.

The lack of a helmet being on earlier, would thus not have any impact if he were slashed in the head since that's the gameplay portion and not the lore/canon.

[Bluko]

ODST 5723 wrote...

While I'd like to see helmets, hardsuits and breather masks in proper contexts, they don't break the big picture storytelling for me and that's what's important to me.

Dude why do you keep arguing with us? Do you enjoy derailing topics into pointless arguements over who's views are more correct? Funny you say that we should consider others views, but you insist on making us believe yours is correct to no end in that: story > appearence. You having fun trolling?

Leave people alone unless they're infringing on your well-being. It's very basic aspect of respect. If this topic seems stupid and nitpicky, ignore it and stop giving credence to it being a subject worth discussing in the first place. The people who want or like breathing masks have their option to vote and say so. No one needs any "white knight" defending.

[Bluko]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Bluko, we're not that far apart. If you ever get a chance to see some of my prior posts you'll probably recognize that. I just don't see an issue since I'm so used to the gameplay/lore balance being shifted towards gameplay because of convenience and sometimes necessity.

Okay...

But how are masks more convenient? Sealed helmets are a "one-size-fits-all" that are reasonable for a variety of encounters. From my perspective it would make far more sense to simply have helmets. Then you only have to create one additional model item.