905 réponses à ce sujet

[ODST 5723]

It's not about whose views are more correct. Your view is your view. But if you're going to put it out there it's open for discussion. I got involved because of the consistency and hard science arguments from a couple other people, which I find bogus... especially when they involve propping up ME1 as this untouchable bastion of consistency.

And if you want to ask me questions, I'll respond.

I can want to see something and still be ok with, rationalize and accept something else because I don't feel they're all that important.

[ODST 5723]

Bluko wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Bluko, we're not that far apart. If you ever get a chance to see some of my prior posts you'll probably recognize that. I just don't see an issue since I'm so used to the gameplay/lore balance being shifted towards gameplay because of convenience and sometimes necessity.

Okay...

But how are masks more convenient? Sealed helmets are a "one-size-fits-all" that are reasonable for a variety of encounters. From my perspective it would make far more sense to simply have helmets. Then you only have to create one additional model item.

I'm not sure that they are a matter of convenience as much as they are for aesthetic appeal.  If they are, they are.  I don't find that insulting in the least, and frankly, it's reminiscent to me of a theatrical device (actual theatre, where protagonists don't have covered faces but may have a symbolic add-on/prop to get the message across).

As for all helmets all the time when there's combat, I could be ok with that, but it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me the same way it wasn't for ME2.  Drinking through masks and kissig Liara through my Recon hood were't much of an issue.  And since my second favorite headgear was the Kestrel Helmet you probably already know that it didn't get used and was replaced by the breather mask in certain scearios while the Recon Hood worked everywhere.   Didn't bother me at all.  Would it have been cool if it had it's own mouthpiece so that it didn't switch out for a different helmet?  Sure.

But it would also be cool if ME used Dead Space inspired helmets built into the armor which expand over the face.  And I've always looked at the N7 Breather as doing that with its breather portion even though it's a seperate look in ME2 from the standard N7 helmet.  Hell, I've liked that concept since the Lost in Space movie.

But if that's not an option they put on the table, I'm ok with helmet or breather mask.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 05:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...
But it would also be cool if ME used Dead Space inspired helmets built into the armor which expand over the face.  And I've always looked at the N7 Breather as doing that with its breather portion even though it's a seperate look in ME2 from the standard N7 helmet.  Hell, I've liked that concept since the Lost in Space movie.

Rule of Cool? I dislike it's overuse. Collapsable helment, while visually appealing, make no sense whatsoever - since any kind of collapsable structure hurts protection.

[ODST 5723]

Not for Rule of Cool but because it's a lot more practical and novel than carrying around a helmet in Hammerspace.

It's not just visually appealing, but would follow suit thematically w/ the collapsible weapons. As for hurting protection, the kinetic barrier is the primary means of defense, not the helmet so it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned and could easily make sense in ME.  It's not like we see them the helmets actually being put on or taken off at any point.

Clipping w/ the hairstyles would likely be the biggest issue, IMO.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:23 .

[ediskrad327]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Not for Rule of Cool but because it's a lot more practical and novel than carrying around a helmet in Hammerspace.

It's not just visually appealing, but would follow suit thematically w/ the collapsible weapons. As for hurting protection, the kinetic barrier is the primary means of defense, not the helmet so it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned and could easily make sense in ME.  It's not like we see them the helmets actually being put on or taken off at any point.

Clipping w/ the hairstyles would likely be the biggest issue, IMO.

collapsible helmets > masks

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Clipping w/ the hairstyles would likely be the biggest issue, IMO.

They should implement helmet hair.  That'd be awesome.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Easily

1) Artistic expression
2) Acknowledging that they did not create a hard science world, they anticipated that the majority would support minor changes in style and immaterial minutia by recognizing that they're telling a story with science on top rather than a story told through science.
3) Limited resources leading to a series of trade-offs based on their priority list, not yours.

1) BS.
2) BS. If they did that then it's thair fail.
3) BS. Thre's no different in resources between modeling a chanracter in high heels vs. modeling a character wihout high heels.

What you feel is insulting is immaterial. What you feel is lazy is immaterial. Because at the end of the day you can't prove it to anyone else. We'll have to take your word for it. But that's your MO. You look for what proves your subjective position to yourself and then try to jam your words in the mouths of others as if it has any bearing on the other party.

You see laziness, i see acceptable trade-offs. You see things being affronts to your concept of the universe, i see variable minutia that really doesn't have an impact on the big picture because I recognize that the visuals don't tell the entire story.

In other words, you lie to yourself in a pathetic effort to justify crap?
Becase, you know you can use that same lines to justify anything. Humans breatign in space? Artistic license! 1+1 = 3 (even tough we said it was 2 before). Artistic license!

It may not bother you personally, but that doesn't make the issue go away.

[ODST 5723]

1+1=3 is an accounting principle, not artistic license.

Whether you agree with me or not doesn't concern me, but don't pretend that you don't ignore inconsistency and facts when they don't suit your purposes and your view. You've been doing it in both of the breathing mask threads I've been involved in.

As for whether the issue goes away or not, that all depends on how it's rationalized.  If it's trivial enough that it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist.  We're talking about a work of fiction, not reality.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...
While I'd like to see helmets, hardsuits and breather masks in proper contexts, they don't break the big picture storytelling for me and that's what's important to me.  The big picture.

Actually, quite the opposite. It's exactly the "big picture" that these "little things" hurt the most.
They cheapen the entire unvierse.

There's enough inconsistency and rule of cool there too that means that ME2 can easily get a pass.

No. If your argument is that ME1 has flaws, so ME2 can have even more flaws, then it's the stupidest argument ever made...ever.

No game or setting will be perfect. But I'd liek to see developers/makers TRY. I want to see the universe IMPROVE from the last iteration (even a little), not become worse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Not for Rule of Cool but because it's a lot more practical and novel than carrying around a helmet in Hammerspace.

Practical for the intended role (protection)....you know..the reason helmets are MADE.
The necessity of many moving parts and compression means that offering proper protection is impossible (as it would lack th thickness and structure) and sealing it is also far harder.

It's not like we see them the helmets actually being put on or taken off at any point.

Do we have to? It can be done from a technical standpoin, but it isnt' really necessary. The cammera isn't constantly on the PC, so he can easily take it off while he's off camera.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...

1+1=3 is an accounting principle, not artistic license.

Well, I want to create a universe where 1+1=3.
Hence, it is artistic license. EVERYTHING is subject to artistic license. EVERYTHING. No exceptions.

It doesn't matter how mind-beding, redicolous or stupid it is. It doesn't matter how much you dislike it.

Whether you agree with me or not doesn't concern me, but don't pretend that you don't ignore inconsistency and facts when they don't suit your purposes and your view. You've been doing it in both of the breathing mask threads I've been involved in.

Eh? I'm not ignoring anything.

As for whether the issue goes away or not, that all depends on how it's rationalized.  If it's trivial enough that it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist.  We're talking about a work of fiction, not reality.

That's a rather poor rationalization, and ammounts to nothign mroe than "because I want it so".

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:50 .

[ODST 5723]

Yeah.  It is because I want it so.  That's how you're operating, too.  The concept is not impossible in the Dead Space universe. It wasn't impossible in the Lost in Space movie universe. It doesn't have to be impossible in the ME universe just because you say so.  It's even possible based on the visuals and could easily be implemented into the universe.

If they don't include what I want, I'm ok with that.  If they want to include standard helmets and Hammerspace, I'm also ok with that.  Breather masks?  Sure.

As long as the overall story is good, the gameplay is fun and the experience is enjoyable.

I can easily overlook the minutia if the game delivers.  But if it doesn't, those issues compound.  Maybe you're already there.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:53 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...

it's not impossible in the Dead Space universe. It wasn't impossible in the Lost in Space movie universe. It doesn't have to be impossible in the ME universe just because you say so.

It is impossible realisticy and it's highly impractical and furthermore improbable anyone woudl ever make such a helment even if hte technology exists.

And if you want to argue that route - it's possible to shoot Kame Hame Kas in Daragonball. In MY Little Ponies tiny horses fly around and speak. Let's have flying and talking ponies in ME3. It's perfectly possible!

[ODST 5723]

Mass Effect fields are impossible realistically, but work in the game universe.

MLP could be like the Hanar

Kamehameha Waves most closely resemble Biotics.

The leap of logic made w/ ME weapons could also apply to ME armors.  It's by no means the unrealistic impossiblity you make it out to be in a work of fiction, even if they don't toss out an explanation.  Especially not if you're already taking the unecessary parts and movements added to weapons in the universe and expecting them to work "realistically" but giving them a pass.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:58 .

[Zanallen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is impossible realisticy and it's highly impractical and furthermore improbable anyone woudl ever make such a helment even if hte technology exists.

And if you want to argue that route - it's possible to shoot Kame Hame Kas in Daragonball. In MY Little Ponies tiny horses fly around and speak. Let's have flying and talking ponies in ME3. It's perfectly possible!

Considering the floating, talking jellyfish and the psychic, mind controlling plants that double as a cloning facility already present in the Mass Effect universe, I would have no problem with flying, talking ponies.

And since we already have automatically collapsing/expanding weapons, I don't see how a helmet of a similar sort would be impossible.

[Ryzaki]

ODST 5723 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Hell, even the way the hazards are presented is ridiculous since you can hop in the Mako and you're A-OK and hop out a couple seconds later as if there was no impact on your suit whatsoever.

Don't forget the whole "Put one squadmate in Devlon armor and everyone is magically protected" thing.

I try to hold some cards back rather than showing my entire hand.  Thank god you didn't mention using omni-gel to repair external damage to a vehicle when no one exited the damn thing.

There's plenty of facepalm crap in ME1 and ME2. (like reviving a geth with medigel, and Jacob's father and crew somehow having technology that there's no way they could've had).

And yes I fully support retractable helmets. At least then it doesn't like like Shep pulls a helmet out of his rear at some points.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:03 .

[ODST 5723]

It was a joke considering that I've said on several pages now in the past 2 threads that gameplay isn't indicative of reality in the universe.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:04 .

[Ryzaki]

ODST 5723 wrote...

It was a joke since I've said on several pages now that gameplay isn't indicative of reality in the universe.

Oh.

Still I'd retractable helms. It would aleviate one of my issues with Shep wearing a helm at certain points.

[Biotic Sage]

It's one thing for people to overreact about breathing masks. It's another thing to be a willfully blind apologist for that sort of in-universe-lore-breaking "artistic" decision. In my opinion the latter are worse.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:17 .

[ODST 5723]

Biotic Sage wrote...

It's one thing for people to overreact about breathing masks. It's another thing to be a willfully blind apologist for that sort of in-universe-lore-breaking "artistic" decision. In my opinion the latter are worse.

You're welcome to that opinion.  I picked the artistic interpretation portion because I knew Crimson wouldn't accept it since he did the same when he responded his 2 (revised to 3) options that I didn't agree with.  Hell, I even busted out a similar willful blindness comment earlier in this thread.

I can be forgiving of retcons and lore breaks if it gets in the way of a good story.  That's pretty much a staple of franchises of comics, movies, tv shows and games.  That doesn't mean I'll forgive all, but something I deem as 4th tier, minor minutia isn't going to break my experience.

It's all in where your personal line is as Il Divo has said at least twice in this thread already.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Mass Effect fields are impossible realistically, but work in the game universe.

MLP could be like the Hanar

Kamehameha Waves most closely resemble Biotics.

The leap of logic made w/ ME weapons could also apply to ME armors.  It's by no means the unrealistic impossiblity you make it out to be in a work of fiction, even if they don't toss out an explanation.  Especially not if you're already taking the unecessary parts and movements added to weapons in the universe and expecting them to work "realistically" but giving them a pass.

Guns are not made to protect your head. Mind you, collapsable guns are rule of cool but it does have some basis in reality. There are guns that can be partially collapsed (or taken apart). The same does not hold true for helment, because beign made of multiple parts ( a prequisite for being collapsable) is an inherent structural weakenss.

ME fields are a requirement for the universe.

Also, your defense seem to be "Well, ME isn't 100% relistic/believable, so who cares". Let's add more unrealistic things into it? I'm curious as to where do you draw the line? How much is too much?

This is the stupidest of all arguments as it's not really an argument - given that it can be used for anything, anywhere.

Le'ts turn ME into Dragonball. After all, ME fields aren't realistic, so le'ts add spiky hairs, chi attack and whatever else I cna think of while I'm high on shrooms. Shrooms? LEets add pipes trough which Shepard has to travel too...and stomp turtles. While on a flying carpet.

[ODST 5723]

Actually, what I did was take your absurd recommendations and try to find the closest analogue that already exists in the ME universe showing that the concept itself, not the execution, may have a basis already built into the universe. Thus, it's about the concept is executed in the universe.

The collapsible nature of the weapons in the ME universe goes beyond just as collapsible stock. It includes stock, grip, barrel, optics, etc. A whole bunch of unnecessary motion that adds complexity to a weapon when most conventional wisdom is to keep it simple and keep it powerful.

As for armor, you're again forgetting that while a helmet is for protection the primary protection in the ME universe is kinetic barriers. Those helmets aren't going to stop a lot of relativistic speed rounds to begin with. So really, it's not about maximum protection. It's about possible damage mitigation and they could easily come up with a lore reason for why a collapsible helmet is also feasible and if they don't it would be inferred through operation that it provides adequate minimal protection the same way that light armor provides at least adequate minimal protection. Other universes have made this concept work and it could easily be ported to ME.

It's not an all or nothing argument. Otherwise I'd borrow a page out of your book and throw out "magnetism" as my ultimate trump card.  Instead, I'll go w/ collapsible helmets, visors and breathing masks.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 09:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Actually, what I did was take your absurd recommendations and try to find the closest analogue that already exists in the ME universe showing that the concept itself, not the execution, may have a basis already built into the universe. Thus, it's about the concept is executed in the universe.

Execuation matters. And a cencept is not equally applicable everywhere.

The collapsible nature of the weapons in the ME universe goes beyond just as collapsible stock. It includes stock, grip, barrel, optics, etc. A whole bunch of unnecessary motion that adds complexity to a weapon when most conventional wisdom is to keep it simple and keep it powerful.

They don't really fold THAT much, and as I said again - guns and armor have different requirements.
You can already disasemble a sniper rifle and carry it in a small(er) bag. You got collapsable stocks. Some guns have collapsable grips.
It' not only a matter of volume, but for what ti is used and what the requirements are.

As for armor, you're again forgetting that while a helmet is for protection the primary protection in the ME universe is kinetic barriers. Those helmets aren't going to stop a lot of relativistic speed rounds to begin with.

So the secondary layer of defense should be ignored?
If the helmet stops just one bullet, it does it job.

So really, it's not about maximum protection. It's about possible damage mitigation and they could easily come up with a lore reason for why a collapsible helmet is also feasible and if they don't it would be inferred through operation that it provides adequate minimal protection the same way that light armor provides at least adequate minimal protection. Other universes have made this concept work and it could easily be ported to ME.

A collapsable helmet will always be inferior to a solid on. Basic common sense.
Can they handwave it? Not in any sensible way.

Just because it exists in other universes doesn't mean it works well here...or at all. This is again - a non argumnet - as it can be used to argue for ANYTHING.
Like I said - Dragonball has supersonic clouds you can ride on. Works there, let's have it here!

It's not an all or nothing argument. Otherwise I'd borrow a page out of your book and throw out "magnetism" as my ultimate trump card.  Instead, I'll go w/ collapsible helmets, visors and breathing masks.

What about magnetism?

[ODST 5723]

So what you're saying, with absolute certainty is that a collapsible helmet couldn't stop a single round and then tossing in a straw man for fun.

You're clearly the master.

As for magnetism, by all means, refer back several pages and it may come back to you.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 02 janvier 2012 - 09:54 .

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A collapsable helmet will always be inferior to a solid on. Basic common sense. Can they handwave it? Not in any sensible way.

It's really not that difficult: armor is there to catch rounds slowed but not stopped by the barrier. It cannot stand up to full speed rounds, period. It's not designed to even try. So all a collapsible helmet has to do is be strong enough to stop the occassional, and in comparison, very slow stray round.  And you're going to insist that materials science hasn't progressed far enough in ME-land to make that a solvable engineering problem in conjunction with a collapsible design? Hell, you could even have a single-piece internal sheath of some ballistic, and moderately elastic, fabric that could "peel" back when the harder external plating of the helmet folds down.  Use some imagination.

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 janvier 2012 - 10:08 .