905 réponses à ce sujet

[Vapaa]

Calinstel wrote...

But that is exactly the point.  When realism and science are thown out the window for the game, those littles bits that we all know about SHOULD be there.  Like needing space/armor/environmental suits with real helmets.  Things like that keep the game grounded with a little believability.  After all, they said it was scifi, not fantasy we were playing.

But "belivability" is also a personal thing, the fancy breather musks sure buggs me, but on the other hand, ME1 was also full of immersion breakers, and far worse in my opinion.

You I'd rather have squadmates in catsuits and breather masks if this allow me to get rid of all the ridiculous places/backgrounds from ME1.

Modifié par Vapaä, 03 janvier 2012 - 03:37 .

[Xeranx]

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
ME2 story/plot IS worse by any metric possible. It has more plot holes and more severe ones, more ass pulls, more hand-waves, more idiot balls.
You may like the story and characters, but doesn't change a thing. ME2 does some things right, but it also does soem things very wrong.

Oh, please. ME1 just rifles off the stupid before even making Shepard a Spectre. Lesse:

1) Tali's timeline and the existence of the geth transmission.

Why?  Because it's believed that Shepard received an audience with the Council within a matter of hours?  What's to be more believed: that what we saw take place (in minutes) took a few mere hours or took quite longer?  

Look at political systems as they exist now.  I'm not well versed on the matter, but I do know that getting people to convene requires rearranging schedules and you're looking to three leaders of various groups to get together to hear what the newcomers have to say about their star investigator.  They'll get to it, but any pressing concerns with the Asari, Turian, and Salarian interests would come first considering Saren has had a remarkable reputation up until then.  I don't think it took more than 2 weeks or months, but I don't think it took a few hours.

2) Garrus's timeline and the invesgation into Saren taking however long it takes the Normandy to get to the Citadel.

From my interpretation it Garrus' investigation preceded anything having to do with Eden Prime.  The events on Eden Prime just happened to be the topper.  It doesn't make sense that Garrus would talk about Saren the way he does without something happening before.

This one is just terrible. Now, to get to the idiot balls and asspulls. all still before making Shepard a Spectre:

3) Council actually buying that transmission.

I have no reason to believe that the Council didn't hear that recording before that hearing.  As such Benezia's voice is a very convincing factor since no one else but the Asari Councilor knew who that was.  There's no point in fabricating something like that.

4) Udina buying the story of the mentally unstable dock worker.

You're buying the "mentally unstable" statement?  That's what the Turian Councilor called him, is it not?  But the dockworker called Saren by name.  Traumatized or not that's a hell of a lot more telling than if they just brought Sarens voice on the Geth's audio banks.

5) Harkin just happens to know that Anderson tried out as a Spectre

Dirty cops tend to know a lot.  Considering what Harkin became afterward I have no reason to believe that he didn't know anything.  He was familiar with the underground element as it was.  Look at where he spent his free time.  

We've got plenty of other things, like the Rule-of-Cool Battle of the Citadel, Sovereign shutting down when Shepard kills Husk Saren, the Council (and Udina) pulling a 180 about the existence of the Repears after the battle of the Citadel with no new evidence, anyone there actually listening to Shepard for who to focus on... it really just goes on.

That's not to say that ME1 wasn't a fun Space Opera. But this notion that ME1 had some halfway coherent plot is silly.

With the bold, your argument starts to fall apart considering that happened in ME2 and not ME.

[Il Divo]

Xeranx wrote...

In Exile wrote...
We've got plenty of other things, like the Rule-of-Cool Battle of the Citadel, Sovereign shutting down when Shepard kills Husk Saren, the Council (and Udina) pulling a 180 about the existence of the Repears after the battle of the Citadel with no new evidence, anyone there actually listening to Shepard for who to focus on... it really just goes on.

That's not to say that ME1 wasn't a fun Space Opera. But this notion that ME1 had some halfway coherent plot is silly.

With the bold, your argument starts to fall apart considering that happened in ME2 and not ME.

I think you're confusing his argument regarding the reversal. What he's referring to is how Udina and the Council suddenly believe Shepard's story about the Reapers at the ending of ME1, where during the battle, no new evidence was introduced to support the Reaper story. The 180 you are referring to is how in ME2 the Council/Udina again revert to not believing Shepard's story. Essentially, they're two separate 180s.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 janvier 2012 - 05:16 .

[Xeranx]

You're right. I read it wrong. Apologies.

[Il Divo]

No worries. I've made far, far worse mistakes on the BSN.

[In Exile]

Calinstel wrote...
But that is exactly the point.  When realism and science are thown out the window for the game, those littles bits that we all know about SHOULD be there. 

But my whole point is that what we know depends entirely on who we are. My background is in cognitive neuroscience. As a result, I have a bit of a background in physics (i.e. 1 undergraduate course) but in terms of the hard sciences (i.e. not math or cog. sci.) the meat of what I did as an undergraduate was in physiology, with some biochemistry thrown in.

The stuff thats "very obvious" that stands out for me would be things like the immunology of the quarians, or how AI works. And the notion that a VI could function like a VI and not be AI is just nonsense. The sheer verbal complexity that the VI responds to is so ridiculous that you couldn't avoid a neural net so complex it would effectively be AI. And all of that stuff are "little bits I know". And it's all stupid.

We can talk about internal consistency. Saying that breathing masks aren't internally consistent is one thing. We can talk about aesthetics. But talking about realism is just on the face of it incomprehensible.

The best argument against the masks is that the ME lore is set up to say that people need masks in space to survive. Except that the ME lore is a minefield of stupid starting at ME1, so if Bioware just says that vacuums don't work the way we think they do, that's just just another part of physics they've decided to ignore for whatever reason.

Like needing space/armor/environmental suits with real helmets.  Things like that keep the game grounded with a little believability.  After all, they said it was scifi, not fantasy we were playing.

ME is fantasy. For god's sake, element zero is a neutron. They have biotics, which is just space force with more midiclorian psuedoscience. The asari are a monogendered telephatic race. 

[nitefyre410]

Il Divo wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Inexile wrote...
We've got plenty of other things, like the Rule-of-Cool Battle of the Citadel, Sovereign shutting down when Shepard kills Husk Saren, the Council (and Udina) pulling a 180 about the existence of the Repears after the battle of the Citadel with no new evidence, anyone there actually listening to Shepard for who to focus on... it really just goes on.

That's not to say that ME1 wasn't a fun Space Opera. But this notion that ME1 had some halfway coherent plot is silly.

With the bold, your argument starts to fall apart considering that happened in ME2 and not ME.

I think you're confusing his argument regarding the reversal. What he's referring to is how Udina and the Council suddenly believe Shepard's story about the Reapers at the ending of ME1, where during the battle, no new evidence was introduced to support the Reaper story. The 180 you are referring to is how in ME2 the Council/Udina again revert to not believing Shepard's story. Essentially, they're two separate 180s.

 

which would make it a complete 360...

Truth be told  in ME 3 if they pull that crap again you all my very see jump inside the game and strangle them all.

[Il Divo]

nitefyre410 wrote...

which would make it a complete 360...

Truth be told  in ME 3 if they pull that crap again you all my very see jump inside the game and strangle them all.

Yes, it would make a complete 360, wouldn't it? If it weren't for the fact that ME2 made its way to a Sony console, I might have suspected that Microsoft was behind this as a subtle method of advertising....

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 janvier 2012 - 05:13 .

[In Exile]

Xeranx wrote...
Why?  Because it's believed that Shepard received an audience with the Council within a matter of hours?  What's to be more believed: that what we saw take place (in minutes) took a few mere hours or took quite longer? 

It's not believed. It literally happend. As in, you are told in game that the first thing you do is that you're going to see Udina. But that's not what I'm harping on.

No, what's screwed up about the timeline is the content of the transmission.

So what has to happen is this:

1) Geth has to be present and record Saren/Benezia after Eden Prime.
2) Geth has to get off Sovereign (or whatever ship the two were on).
3) Geth has to be back in Geth space. Tali has to be in that part of Geth Space.
4) Tali has to find/takedown Geth.
5) Tali has to analyze Geth, realize what she has.
6) Tali has to contact the Shadow Broker.
7) Tali has to travel to the Citadel.
8) Shepard has to actually travel around the citadel and take the time to investigate and find Tali.

None of this can take too long, unless the race against time is "Shepard does nothing for 6 months on the Citadel".

Look at political systems as they exist now.  I'm not well versed on the matter, but I do know that getting people to convene requires rearranging schedules and you're looking to three leaders of various groups to get together to hear what the newcomers have to say about their star investigator.

The UN security council does quite well for it self meeting in or around the same day of a major international crisis. Humanity just had its foremost colony invaded by the Geth that weren't seen in 3 centuries. Humanity then proceed to accuse the foremost Spectre of the Council of treason and sedition.

And the Council is a single political body. There's no need to assemble anyone.

They'll get to it, but any pressing concerns with the Asari, Turian, and Salarian interests would come first considering Saren has had a remarkable reputation up until then.  I don't think it took more than 2 weeks or months, but I don't think it took a few hours.

2 months of doing nothing b0rks the timeline.

From my interpretation it Garrus' investigation preceded anything having to do with Eden Prime.  The events on Eden Prime just happened to be the topper.  It doesn't make sense that Garrus would talk about Saren the way he does without something happening before.

Except for the fact that the Council directly cites the CSEC report as evidence that Saren had no role in Eden Prime. You don't cite the footnote on a report about Saren beating suspects or something as a reason to avoid investigating him.

That's an even bigger "asspull" so to speak that I was suggesting it was. It would only make the hole worse.

I have no reason to believe that the Council didn't hear that recording before that hearing.  As such Benezia's voice is a very convincing factor since no one else but the Asari Councilor knew who that was.  There's no point in fabricating something like that.

The Alliance has everything to gain by faking the recording. Support of the Council for war against the geth. Covering up the apparent failure of Shepard. As for Benezia, they could have just randomly picked an asari matriach to add to the convo in the hope of giving it legitimacy.

This is the same Council that said traumatized dock worker, who would have no reason or rhyme to (according to the most charitable view like you're using) to know Saren even existed.

You're buying the "mentally unstable" statement?  That's what the Turian Councilor called him, is it not?  But the dockworker called Saren by name.  Traumatized or not that's a hell of a lot more telling than if they just brought Sarens voice on the Geth's audio banks.

You even make the point yourself! 

And the issue with the dockworker is that it's a single dockworker. The man say everyone around him die in a brutal assault. In any sensible justice system, that kind of testimony can be heavily undercut. And that's the only evidence in existence, except for this geth record collect by a quarian and provded by a poltical body with every possible interest in discreting Saren. it's all ass pull.

Dirty cops tend to know a lot.  Considering what Harkin became afterward I have no reason to believe that he didn't know anything.  He was familiar with the underground element as it was.  Look at where he spent his free time. 

A human being considered for the Spectres is seriously top secret. Dirty cops don't hear these things.

With the bold, your argument starts to fall apart considering that happened in ME2 and not ME.

Ill Divo explained this one for me.

[nitefyre410]

Il Divo wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

which would make it a complete 360...

Truth be told  in ME 3 if they pull that crap again you all my very see jump inside the game and strangle them all.

Yes, it would make a complete 360, wouldn't it? If it weren't for the fact that ME2 made its way to a Sony console, I might have suspected that Microsoft was behind this as a subtle method of advertising....

 

Maybe it still is - they have the PS 3 players thinking 360 while playing PS3... dun dun dun. 


l

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
How will you give a value to story/plot in numbers I wonder? You can at best take parts and rate them, which is still only an opinon. I mean we are talking about fiction ok? Some people say this and that ruins their immersion, but it doesn't need to ruin mine. For example Jack didn't ruin mine at any point of the plot. Which says alot about my opinon of this thread and it's relevance. Because the only value that really counts is 'like it' or 'don't like it'. For whatever reason. Because you can't really tell people how they are supposed to be having fun. Bottomline if almost nobody cares, or only a neglectable number cares, then it is a neglectable concern. Not saying everything that went wrong with the plot is neglectable. But that's all the more reason for Bioware to focus on things that are more important.

You not caring about something and something not runining your immerious doesn't not make the issue dissapear.
It's there, that's undeniable, it's just that some of you don't care. Which is all fine and dandy, but you have the gall to dismiss it's existance.

Yes, holes in logic. Holes in believabiltiy. Holes in common sense. Holes in consistency. Holes in lore. I can detect those things and I can count them.
And I'm sure as hell not hte only one.

If a child can detect them and point them out, then the writers/developers should have too. But those things are still there. Which leads to only one conclusions - the writers/developers didn't care.
They didn't care to solidify the universe they created. They didn't care to polish and remove such (rather visible) flaws. They didn't even try.
The lack of caring  - nay, the lack of EFFORT - is evident and that's what hurts ME2 the most. ME2 fails to convince me the developers even tried.

And no, the only value that counts isn't "I like it" and "I don't like it".
One has the be utterly self-absorbed to belive that. I don't have to like something to recognize qualtiy, and likewise, I don't have to hate something to recognize it's faults.
Not only because people have different tastes, but because people can easily ignore stuff.
I like something DOES NOT equal that something is good. And vice-versa. Unless you cna put some reasoning behind it, some explanation. One must recognize WHY one likes X and how much weight one puts on y and z.

This is one type of "argument" that pops up again and again and again.
When we were discussing the ne Star Trek movie, poeple kept hand-waving Nero doing nothing for 20 years, because it wasn't important to them. They acted like it wasnt a plot hole/idiot ball. Well it was. Same here.

You can say it's game, you can say I'm not SUPPOSED to care about it - but the fact remains that the flaw is there.
It might be a game, but it's also an universe. It's also a story. And things that mar the story and the setting ARE things that concern me.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 janvier 2012 - 08:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlanC9 wrote...
People are bothered by the breathing masks becauyse we've all seen astronauts and know what they look like. People (most, anyway) aren't bothered by, say, Star Wars' space fighters, because we don't ever see space fighters flying around. A player from a culture that actually had space fighters would find an X-wing every bit as ludicrous as a breathing mask being used in vacuum.

Expectations.
The more realistic and serious the universe attempts to be, the more serious will it be taken. The higher expectations it has.

Star wars is  Fantasy in space. It's tone, it plot - everything about it sets that up. Hence, there are no higher expectation of realism.
I sure as hell do not expect the same level of realism from Saving Private Rayan and Commando.

In either case, the "flaws" do not case to exist. They are always present. The way the X-Wing flies is always there, weather it bothers you or not.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You not caring about something and something not runining your immerious doesn't not make the issue dissapear.
It's there, that's undeniable, it's just that some of you don't care. Which is all fine and dandy, but you have the gall to dismiss it's existance.

Yes, holes in logic. Holes in believabiltiy. Holes in common sense. Holes in consistency. Holes in lore. I can detect those things and I can count them.
And I'm sure as hell not hte only one.

If a child can detect them and point them out, then the writers/developers should have too. But those things are still there. Which leads to only one conclusions - the writers/developers didn't care.
They didn't care to solidify the universe they created. They didn't care to polish and remove such (rather visible) flaws. They didn't even try.
The lack of caring  - nay, the lack of EFFORT - is evident and that's what hurts ME2 the most. ME2 fails to convince me the developers even tried.

And no, the only value that counts isn't "I like it" and "I don't like it".
One has the be utterly self-absorbed to belive that. I don't have to like something to recognize qualtiy, and likewise, I don't have to hate something to recognize it's faults.
Not only because people have different tastes, but because people can easily ignore stuff.
I like something DOES NOT equal that something is good. And vice-versa. Unless you cna put some reasoning behind it, some explanation. One must recognize WHY one likes X and how much weight one puts on y and z.

This is one type of "argument" that pops up again and again and again.
When we were discussing the ne Star Trek movie, poeple kept hand-waving Nero doing nothing for 20 years, because it wasn't important to them. They acted like it wasnt a plot hole/idiot ball. Well it was. Same here.

You can say it's game, you can say I'm not SUPPOSED to care about it - but the fact remains that the flaw is there.
It might be a game, but it's also an universe. It's also a story. And things that mar the story and the setting ARE things that concern me.

A breathing mask is not a plothole. Because whether you wear one or not does not does not change the plot. If Jack for example wore armor in certain missions, how would it change the story? It wouldn't.

'Like it' or 'don't like it' is the only thing that matters because it is entertainment. Music for example does not have to be highest quality to be popular. Or everyone would hear classic and classic titles would lead the charts. But they don't, do they?

Why would I put effort into changing something that I like? That's stupid. And it would be stupid for Bioware to put effort into changing something that people like. Because it is their business to sell people something they like. It is not their job to please everyone. Quality in a video game can be graphics, gameplay, performance, etc.

Breathing masks are a design decission. They are not about quality, they are about art style.

I never disagreed about plot issues. I even mentioned Shep's death which is one such and there are others. We talked about the Council decision not long ago and I agreed with you in the end. If there is something in the plot that doesn't make sense because it suggests a logic conclusion where there is none or where others would be more logical I'd agree.

But a design decision is about looks, not necessarily function. For example I can imagine that when they design star ships they don't consult the NASA about how such a ship can/should look like. I'll say it again, sci-fi would probably be incredibly boring if it was 100% realistic. It's not supposed to be.

The reason why I 'don't care' is not because I am lazy or too stupid to realize that some things are unrealistic. It is because I don't WANT them to be realistic. Because it is a fictional story. And I for example like the fact that star ships of different races have a significant look even though for all of them the very same physical laws apply. That's unrealistic, because they should pretty much look the same. Like for example Formula 1 cars all pretty much look the same. Do I know that it is a design decision? Yes. Can I still take the plot serious? Yes.

The game would not be any better if everyone wore realistic space suits, it would be worse. Realism is no indication for quality in video games. Also I don't see why you would think that ME is more realistic that Star Wars. We have aliens, and we have the Force Biotics. We travel faster than light, and we 'jump' between star systems. We have an ancient evil race that threatens the galaxy. It's so much like Star Wars that people could claim rip off. And still you claim that it has to be more realistic. Why? It's a sci-fi space opera. Hell even the armor they use is designed to look good, not to be functional.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:18 .

[AlexXIV]

Il Divo wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

which would make it a complete 360...

Truth be told  in ME 3 if they pull that crap again you all my very see jump inside the game and strangle them all.

Yes, it would make a complete 360, wouldn't it? If it weren't for the fact that ME2 made its way to a Sony console, I might have suspected that Microsoft was behind this as a subtle method of advertising....

Neither the Council nor Udina ever admit openly that they believe Shep's story. They actually ground Shep and the Normandy so he/she has to steal her to get to Ilos. Next thing is they talk after beating Sovereign in which Shep reminds them of the Reaper threat and walks off. Only Anderson believes Shepard, and it doesn't change in ME2.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
A breathing mask is not a plothole. Because whether you wear one or not does not does not change the plot. If Jack for example wore armor in certain missions, how would it change the story? It wouldn't.

A plot hole? Not by a strict definition. But it does hurt the story and universe.

'Like it' or 'don't like it' is the only thing that matters because it is entertainment. Music for example does not have to be highest quality to be pópular. Or everyone would hear classic and classic titles would lead the charts. But they don't, do they?

Which is irrelevant to the qualtiy argument. ME is entertainment BUT it is ALSO a story/setting.
And while utterly stupid and shallow things can be entertaining, this does not bode well for your argument.

I didn't say ME2 wasn't entertaining, now did I? That is irrelevant to the point. What I did say is that it is shallower and less coherent and pokes more UNNECESSARY and EASILY FIXABLE holes in the setting itself.

Why would I put effort into changing something that I like? That's stupid. And it would be stupid for Bioware to put effort into changing something that people like. Because it is their business to sell people something they like. It is not their job to please everyone. Quality in a video game can be graphics, gameplay, performance, etc.

Screw quality, right? As long as it sells?
So you want qualtiy in gamepla,y quality in graphics, etc...but quality in writing, qualtiy in universe-building? Who cares abotu those?

Lol...

Breathing masks are a design decission. They are not about quality, they are about art style.

F*** that style. It is horrible style that adds NOTHING but takes away something.

But a design decision is about looks, not necessarily function. For example I can imagine that when they design start ships they don't consult the NASA about how such a ship can/should look like. I'll say it again, sci-fi would probably be incredibly boring if it was 100% realistic. It's not supposed to be.

Looks and the setting are linked. What you see and what you are told - they are linked.
A universe - a setting - is a sum of it's part. If those parts don't work well together, if they conflict, if they work against eachother - then the setting as a whole suffers.

Design doesn't exist in a vaccum..

The reason why I 'don't care' is not because I am lazy or too stupid to realize that some things are unrealistic. It is because I don't WANT them to be realistic. Because it is a fictional story. And I for example like the fact that star ships of different races have a significant look even though for all of them the very same physical laws apply. That's unrealistic, because they should pretty much look the same. Like for example Formula 1 cars all pretty much look the same. Do I know that it is a design decision? Yes. Can I still take the plot serious? Yes.

Redicolous argument is rediclous. Why would all starships look the same? If anything, in space you have far MORE freedom with design, since things like aerodynamics don't apply.

The game would not be any better if everyone wore realistic space suits, it would be worse. Realism is no indication for quality in video games.

The setting itself would be better. The universe itself would be better.
Believability is an indication of quality of a story and setting. Tehyy are part of a video game. Hence, they are also tied to the quality of a video game in general.

Also I don't see why you would think that ME is more realistic that Star Wars. We have aliens, and we have the Force Biotics. We travel faster than light, and we 'jump' between star systems. We have an ancient evil race that threatens the galaxy. It's so much like Star Wars that people could claim rip off. And still you claim that it has to be more realistic. Why? It's a sci-fi space opera. Hell even the armor they use is designed to look good, not to be functional.

The devil is in the details. But I don't expect you to see that.

[AlexXIV]

Aerodynamics/friction are not the only physical law. Also they would apply if a star ship (like the Normandy) actually also is used in an atmosphere. Legion mentions one time that windows are structural weaknesses. Which is actually accurate and still most war ships look like planes. Like they have the 'bridge' in a somewhat exposed place as if they need to look out of the window to 'see'. One reason I guess is that to have open space in the background looks better than walls. Also there is probably one specific way to make a star ship efficient for a specific purpose. As there are such that need to be fast, or have alot of storage, or need to carry weapons, need to be quick to manuver, etc.
 
Funny thing is you make up excuses for such thing saying 'they have freedom in design because it is in space'. Because it is something you like the way it is. While you keep poking into the same holes that you don't like. If you think your complaints are about anything than style you are simply wrong. You excuse the things you like and complain about what you don't like, just like all of us. So the only really question is how many people agree with you or see it the same way. That's always been the only question and I guess you even know that because that's the only point in discussing it. To find a consens with others. Because if your opinion was fact, then we needn't talk about it. We are not discussing whether 1+1=2 either, or whether the sky is blue or water is wet.

Nobody even honestly disagrees that breathing masks in vacuum don't make sense. As does sound in space. But you accept that a gun fired in vaccum makes a noise even if it shouldn't, do you?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:45 .

[DaJe]

Vapaä wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

But that is exactly the point.  When realism and science are thown out the window for the game, those littles bits that we all know about SHOULD be there.  Like needing space/armor/environmental suits with real helmets.  Things like that keep the game grounded with a little believability.  After all, they said it was scifi, not fantasy we were playing.

But "belivability" is also a personal thing, the fancy breather musks sure buggs me, but on the other hand, ME1 was also full of immersion breakers, and far worse in my opinion.

You I'd rather have squadmates in catsuits and breather masks if this allow me to get rid of all the ridiculous places/backgrounds from ME1.

I'm sorry what do the "ridiculous places/backgrounds" have to do with this topic?
There is a specific issue that was introduced with ME2 being discussed here, not which game is better overall. Please stop generalizing so much and assuming there can only be 100% ME1 or 100% ME2. Because neither is perfect and both could profit from certain features of the other. Effectively ME3 should combine the better features, which in this case it doesn't always do apparently, without reasonable explanation. Hence the frustration of fans of the first hour.

Modifié par DaJe, 03 janvier 2012 - 10:26 .

[Goofy McCoy]

"Deal with it"

Oh Priestly, you so funny. Say hi to the Westwood Studios chaps for me.

[Xeranx]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]Xeranx wrote...
Why?  Because it's believed that Shepard received an audience with the Council within a matter of hours?  What's to be more believed: that what we saw take place (in minutes) took a few mere hours or took quite longer?  [/quote]

It's not believed. It literally happend. As in, you are told in game that the first thing you do is that you're going to see Udina. But that's not what I'm harping on.[/quote]

And this constitutes a meaningful marking of time between docking, a possible debrief of everyone who was ground-side, and Udina clearing up his duties so that he can attend to what happened on Eden Prime?  I know you're not harping about it, but you seem to think that the marking of time in Mass Effect is exact.  It isn't.  There would be understandable delays before any information is doled out.  

For one thing, the details for the report of what happened on Eden Prime would have to ascertained to be complete to the best of the knowledge of those who were down there.  That's paramount.  Without that you can have incomplete reports all before you waste an ambassador's time who has his own duties to perform and possibly a larger amount seeing as, in his position, he more than likely has more people to answer to than a soldier does.

[quote]No, what's screwed up about the timeline is the content of the transmission.

So what has to happen is this:

1) Geth has to be present and record Saren/Benezia after Eden Prime.[/quote]

This can happen before the cut scene in which Benezia informs Saren that the beacon is destroyed and that "a human might have used it".

[quote]2) Geth has to get off Sovereign (or whatever ship the two were on).[/quote]

I don't see why any Geth has to actually leave Sovereign.  Joker was able to talk to Shepard outside of the Citadel relay and Geth are able to share information at stations on their own ships as per ME2.  If humans are capable of conversing at such distances, I really don't see how the Geth can't manage the same thing.

[quote]3) Geth has to be back in Geth space. Tali has to be in that part of Geth Space.[/quote]

Tali found the Geth on an uncharted world.  They were beyond the veil meaning they weren't in Geth space when  she found them. 


[quote]4) Tali has to find/takedown Geth.
5) Tali has to analyze Geth, realize what she has.
6) Tali has to contact the Shadow Broker.
7) Tali has to travel to the Citadel.
8) Shepard has to actually travel around the citadel and take the time to investigate and find Tali.

None of this can take too long, unless the race against time is "Shepard does nothing for 6 months on the Citadel".[/quote]

All of that can happen within the time between the first hearing and Shepard meeting Tali.  An investigation takes time.  It can take anywhere from a few hours to months or years.  I'm not saying that it took years, but I'm perfectly able to believe that the time to conduct an investigation that led to Shepard finding Tali could be a considerable amount of time.  I'm not going to believe for one second that Wrex, who was brought in by C-Sec, was just let go on the spot as soon as Shepard got there.  All that's done to expedite gameplay otherwise it drags out.  If this were a television show you can bet that each event would and could be drawn out establishing a timeframe that measures in weeks instead of hours.  

[quote]
[quote]Look at political systems as they exist now.  I'm not well versed on the matter, but I do know that getting people to convene requires rearranging schedules and you're looking to three leaders of various groups to get together to hear what the newcomers have to say about their star investigator. [/quote]

The UN security council does quite well for it self meeting in or around the same day of a major international crisis. Humanity just had its foremost colony invaded by the Geth that weren't seen in 3 centuries. Humanity then proceed to accuse the foremost Spectre of the Council of treason and sedition.

And the Council is a single political body. There's no need to assemble anyone.[/quote]

And that example would apply to the Turian, Asari, or Salarian people if their colonies were hit by the Geth.  The Alliance is not a member of the Council and, as such, isn't privy to the kind of expediency the other groups would have.  Especially if the Alliance is naming Saren as the cause of their problems.

[quote]
[quote]They'll get to it, but any pressing concerns with the Asari, Turian, and Salarian interests would come first considering Saren has had a remarkable reputation up until then.  I don't think it took more than 2 weeks or months, but I don't think it took a few hours.[/quote]

2 months of doing nothing b0rks the timeline.[/quote]

What is the timeline?  Apart from the 15 hours Shepard was out, I don't remember any clearly established sense of time for the events that occurred.

[quote]
[quote]From my interpretation it Garrus' investigation preceded anything having to do with Eden Prime.  The events on Eden Prime just happened to be the topper.  It doesn't make sense that Garrus would talk about Saren the way he does without something happening before.[/quote]

Except for the fact that the Council directly cites the CSEC report as evidence that Saren had no role in Eden Prime. You don't cite the footnote on a report about Saren beating suspects or something as a reason to avoid investigating him.

That's an even bigger "asspull" so to speak that I was suggesting it was. It would only make the hole worse.[/quote]

 The Council never 'cites a footnote' as a point for avoiding an investigation on their Spectre.  Also, the Council doesn't say that the report is evidence of Saren not being responsible for Eden Prime.  They say that C-Sec's investigation didn't turn up evidence about Saren's involvement.

[quote]
[quote]I have no reason to believe that the Council didn't hear that recording before that hearing.  As such Benezia's voice is a very convincing factor since no one else but the Asari Councilor knew who that was.  There's no point in fabricating something like that.[/quote]

The Alliance has everything to gain by faking the recording. Support of the Council for war against the geth. Covering up the apparent failure of Shepard. As for Benezia, they could have just randomly picked an asari matriach to add to the convo in the hope of giving it legitimacy.[/quote]

Why pick an Asari then?  Why not a Salarian or another Turian?  Implying that the Alliance would do such a thing is an asspull itself to turn the argument in a more favorable direction.  Udina and company didn't even know who Benezia was.  Why would they run the risk of implicating an innocent individual thereby disqualifying them - COMPLETELY if it was ever found out- from getting a seat on the Council?  Humanity would be laughed right off the Citadel and rightfully so.

[quote]This is the same Council that said traumatized dock worker, who would have no reason or rhyme to (according to the most charitable view like you're using) to know Saren even existed.[/quote]

I never said I liked that part.  That should have made more of an impact than it did.  And why do you think I'm taking a "charitable" view?  This dockworker was capable of recalling the name of a person who committed murder while the event was still occurring around him.  Add to that the fact that Shepard got to him before a day had elasped.  This isn't calling someone in to recount what happened after they had a drink to push the bad memories away.

The events of a dangerous situation are usually very clearly remembered immediately after they have occurred.  If the person who witnessed everything conveys information soundly as Powell did they are capable witnesses and their information can be believed to be accurate.

[quote]
[quote]You're buying the "mentally unstable" statement?  That's what the Turian Councilor called him, is it not?  But the dockworker called Saren by name.  Traumatized or not that's a hell of a lot more telling than if they just brought Sarens voice on the Geth's audio banks.[/quote]

You even make the point yourself! 

And the issue with the dockworker is that it's a single dockworker. The man say everyone around him die in a brutal assault. In any sensible justice system, that kind of testimony can be heavily undercut. And that's the only evidence in existence, except for this geth record collect by a quarian and provded by a poltical body with every possible interest in discreting Saren. it's all ass pull.[/quote]

Days later it can be undercut.  If an officer is on the scene and a witness informs him/her what has happened and the events are still ongoing, the officer can take it as a statement of fact.  They respond to what's going on at the scene.  This is why operators ask questions when people call 911 so they can relay said info to emergency personel.  This is why first responders take note of the area before they attempt to assist a victim.  Without that info, they can't act or act accordingly to the situation as it exists.

[quote]
[quote]Dirty cops tend to know a lot.  Considering what Harkin became afterward I have no reason to believe that he didn't know anything.  He was familiar with the underground element as it was.  Look at where he spent his free time.  [/quote]

A human being considered for the Spectres is seriously top secret. Dirty cops don't hear these things.[/quote]

You know this how?  Dirty cops hear about all kinds of things.  They won't divulge this stuff or the bulk of it even to other dirty cops, but they do hear things and anything can be a top secret until it's not.  It only takes one person to blow a secret.  But in this case, Harkin (a dirty cop) knew that Anderson was in line to be a Spectre because Anderson confirmed it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Aerodynamics/friction are not the only physical law. Also they would apply if a star ship (like the Normandy) actually also is used in an atmosphere.

They LAND on planets and use ME fields to hover.
There is no need for aerodynamics as frigates are not expected to fight or operate inside planetary atmospheres.
They could literaly be a flying brick and it wouldn't be an issue.

Legion mentions one time that windows are structural weaknesses. Which is actually accurate and still most war ships look like planes. Like they have the 'bridge' in a somewhat exposed place as if they need to look out of the window to 'see'. One reason I guess is that to have open space in the background looks better than walls. Also there is probably one specific way to make a star ship efficient for a specific purpose. As there are such that need to be fast, or have alot of storage, or need to carry weapons, need to be quick to manuver, etc.

Geth don't have windows. Normady has one in the front (with shutters) and I think 2 on the sides. I don't recall windows on other ships, but that is rather irrelevant.

What Is your agumenet here? I say again - two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Funny thing is you make up excuses for such thing saying 'they have freedom in design because it is in space'. Because it is something you like the way it is. While you keep poking into the same holes that you don't like.

It's not an excuse, it is the truth.

If you think your complaints are about anything than style you are simply wrong. You excuse the things you like and complain about what you don't like, just like all of us. So the only really question is how many people agree with you or see it the same way. That's always been the only question and I guess you even know that because that's the only point in discussing it. To find a consens with others. Because if your opinion was fact, then we needn't talk about it. We are not discussing whether 1+1=2 either, or whether the sky is blue or water is wet.

Again the same drivle you used in the other thread (and at the end of whihc you capitulated)
No, it's not about style.
Wether thing make sense or not, weather there is an inconsistency or not IS pretty factual.

Again, you might not care, but athat onyl proves oy uwrong by your very own argumnet. How? You said what matters is that people like the game, and that things like breathing masks are irrelevant to you, and that's hte only "better" that matters.
Well, if it's irrelevant to you, but not to me, then the way it is I like it less, you like it well enough.
Change it and you'll like it just as much (since you say ti's irrelevant) and I'll like it more.
Hence, if more peopel liek it better, it is better (again, your own logic).

But it's not liek this silly reasoning is necessary, ti's way simpler than that.
Gameplay, fun, style, beleviabiltiy, story - these things are not opposites. You pare perfectly fine with sacrificing believabiltiy for gameplay...and you're well entilted to it.
BUT - the point is that such a sacrafice is totally unnecessary.

You can have all the great gameplay AND improved beleviability. You gain somethnig, loose nothing. How is that NOT better? It's basic common sense.

Think about it for a second.
Say Shepard wasn't dead for a month and Cerberus picked up his body immediately. Does it change the gameplay? Nope. Does it hurt the story? Nope. Is it more believable? Yes.
Hence - better!

Would the option of sealed suits for your teammates hurt gampley? Nope.
Hence - better.

I can go on an on, telling you of simple ways to improve believabiltiy and avoid some plot holes/ass pulls/inconsistencies that would have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. So why didn't the devs put them in?
Because they didn' tcare, it's as simple as that.

Nobody even honestly disagrees that breathing masks in vacuum don't make sense. As does sound in space. But you accept that a gun fired in vaccum makes a noise even if it shouldn't, do you?

It's a simple and well-known cinematic convention that can be easily explained in may ways (like simulated sounds for increased situational awareness - it's actually a common explanation and the military is experimenting with similar solutions for fighter pilots).
Also, sounds are added for the benefit of the viewers as cutscenes are often not from the PoV of the protagonist.

[nitefyre410]

AlexXIV wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

which would make it a complete 360...

Truth be told  in ME 3 if they pull that crap again you all my very see jump inside the game and strangle them all.

Yes, it would make a complete 360, wouldn't it? If it weren't for the fact that ME2 made its way to a Sony console, I might have suspected that Microsoft was behind this as a subtle method of advertising....

Neither the Council nor Udina ever admit openly that they believe Shep's story. They actually ground Shep and the Normandy so he/she has to steal her to get to Ilos. Next thing is they talk after beating Sovereign in which Shep reminds them of the Reaper threat and walks off. Only Anderson believes Shepard, and it doesn't change in ME2.

 

You would think that someone  who tells a person  "Hey you standing and train tracks that ain't safe" They would listen to...then tell you again as the  train gets closer " You know this is not a really good  idea"  Now  the speeding 1000 plus ton locamotive is staring you in the face and you don't move... well don't blame me when I warned you  when the train hits you.

Now the problem is that  Shepard, the Council and the  Galaxy all tied together  and have to move as one to get off the tracks but the Council's  denial of the fact there is a train comeing... won't just get them turned into gray Reaper smoothie but everyone else

Modifié par nitefyre410, 03 janvier 2012 - 11:49 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

As Lotion said, there is not much wrong with X-Wings and Tie Fighters ...
They're designed in a Fantasy Space Universe to fly in space and do extra-intra planet missions. Don't expect Spacecrafts to be like cube or sphere to be more realistic!

Read my last comment to understand, what would happen with these breathing masks.

[Candidate 88766]

In Exile wrote...

It's not believed. It literally happend. As in, you are told in game that the first thing you do is that you're going to see Udina. But that's not what I'm harping on.

No, what's screwed up about the timeline is the content of the transmission.

So what has to happen is this:

1) Geth has to be present and record Saren/Benezia after Eden Prime.
2) Geth has to get off Sovereign (or whatever ship the two were on).
3) Geth has to be back in Geth space. Tali has to be in that part of Geth Space.
4) Tali has to find/takedown Geth.
5) Tali has to analyze Geth, realize what she has.
6) Tali has to contact the Shadow Broker.
7) Tali has to travel to the Citadel.
8) Shepard has to actually travel around the citadel and take the time to investigate and find Tali.

None of this can take too long, unless the race against time is "Shepard does nothing for 6 months on the Citadel".

I'd never thought about that before. That does sort of stretch believability.

You're missing the big one though - the Conduit.

Joker, one of the Alliance's best pilots, is pleased with drift of just under 1500km using a Relay from Sol to the Exodus Cluster where Eden Prime is. The Protheans somehow built a Relay that can get you from the Pangea Expanse to the Citadel with a drift of a couple of metres desipte it being just a prototype. For reference.

Not only that, but the Conduit was a one way system from Illos, a top secret research facility, to the Citadel. The only people who will ever come through it will be coming from the top secret facility, and yet they put the exit right in the middle of the Presidium, in plain sight. For starters, surely you'd put it somewhere a little less conspicuous. Secondly, building a prototype Relay in public view is going to be tricky to disguise. The whole point of the Conduit was that the Reapers couldn't know about it.

Then theres the fact that the Conduit somehow allowed the Mako to 'phase' through the Wards and the Presidium - not to mention the fact that alligning the Conduit with the Relay Monument would sometimes require aiming through Illos itself. That doesn't necessarily contradict any lore, but there was never any indication that creating a corridor of low mass somehow allows objects to pass through other matter. The reason Relays work is because space is virtually empty - the chance of crashing into something is negligible, but the Conduit puts half the Citadel in the way of transit, and some of the time Illos itself would be in the way.



Anyone who can overlook the Counduit shouldn't be too ruffled by breather masks. I'd rather they had full helmets if the situation calls for it, but there weren't really any situations in ME2 that called for a full helmet except two short N7 missions. If the Reapers can maintain an atmosphere on the Citadel Wards then it stands to reason they can maintain an atmosphere around the Collector Base or in themselves.
 

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They LAND on planets and use ME fields to hover.
There is no need for aerodynamics as frigates are not expected to fight or operate inside planetary atmospheres.
They could literaly be a flying brick and it wouldn't be an issue.

Do you even know how aerodynamics works?

Oh, and all ships are expected to work within an atmosphere. It'd be so pointless if it didn't, because then all ships in any fleet would have to rely on their shuttles to pick people off the ground, and those things simply don't have the firepower or durability of a ship like the Normandy to survive a battle. Mostly because they're not designed for dogfights.

Also, what if all the enemy ships landed on your planet, like the Reapers are doing and started to jam communications and sensors so you can't call in orbital strikes? You'd be screwed.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But it's not liek this silly reasoning is necessary, ti's way simpler than that.
Gameplay, fun, style, beleviabiltiy, story - these things are not opposites. You pare perfectly fine with sacrificing believabiltiy for gameplay...and you're well entilted to it.
BUT - the point is that such a sacrafice is totally unnecessary.

You can have all the great gameplay AND improved beleviability. You gain somethnig, loose nothing. How is that NOT better? It's basic common sense.

Think about it for a second.
Say Shepard wasn't dead for a month and Cerberus picked up his body immediately. Does it change the gameplay? Nope. Does it hurt the story? Nope. Is it more believable? Yes.
Hence - better!

Would the option of sealed suits for your teammates hurt gampley? Nope.
Hence - better.

I can go on an on, telling you of simple ways to improve believabiltiy and avoid some plot holes/ass pulls/inconsistencies that would have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. So why didn't the devs put them in?
Because they didn' tcare, it's as simple as that.

I don't think that they didn't care. Maybe they tried to look how it goes (aka how many people complain or feel alienated). I think they made Jack half-naked with tattoos for obvious reasons. I personally don't need that but probably Bioware figured it would be good.

I agree on the Shep's death thing. As I said it bothers me too. But it is a plot issue. Not about functionality of gear or whatever. Well except that her/his suit was damaged. I wish at this point we could know Bioware's stance on these things. Because I think 'they don't care' is the simplified version and it's not really accurate. They probably have reasons even if some of us don't agree with them. And be it only because of deadlines. Which doesn't mean that they can't make wrong calls on certain subjects.

But look in one cutscene you see Jack ripping apart 2 Ymir at once. She never does that when she is in your team. So some scenes are just to show something and then you go back to gameplay mechanics which 'nerf' some skills for balance sake. It's just this kind of thing that you can't take overly serious and you need to be genre savy enough. Some things happen for a reason that we don't know. Because it is due to a part of development or the genre, or market or writing or what do I know.

Point is, it is not wrong to say, hey these breathing masks don't make sense in this and that scene. But you people are blowing it out of proportions. Which is the same for many topics. It's not just a discussion you add insult to injury and make claims to someone's intelligence or lazyness or whatever. It bothers you (and others), good. I am sure Bioware have noticed since they follow their forums.

If people would be a bit more understanding then Bioware devs may even bother to come here and explain the one thing or other. But seeing how if you say anything, can be something completely random, gets you mostly over-reactions from people who are entitled to their opinions and actually act as if Bioware owes them something I can't really blame them for staying away.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 janvier 2012 - 12:26 .