905 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeranx]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Razorsedge820 wrote...

After reading through most of this thread my pimp hand seems to be twitching wildly. Seriously you people are having page long arguments about breathing masks, really? I would understand if you are arguing about game play mechanics or character development but breathing masks?

It may not make sense to most of you but this issue is merely cosmetic and wont effect the actual game. So what if it doesn't make sense story wise, mass effect is full of bigger plot holes. Most of you are either really bored on your holiday vacation or are just really fussy. Just enjoy the game and don't take it too seriously.

Again, what matters to some doesn't matter to others. Mass Effect was more to me than just another game when it first came out: it was an experience.

The fact is, when playing ME2, I almost found it impossible to enjoy the game because I couldn't enjoy the experience. When it came to what my squaddies were wearing, the whole thing was so farcical and stupid to me it pulled me right out of it and made it impossible for me to immerse myself and enjoy the experience. I couldn't take anything seriously, so I couldn't take the story seriously, so I couldn't enjoy the experience at all. It had gone all "Saturday Morning Cartoon" on me with ME2.

wait

So terrible character development and  crap main plot  side mission's that more interesting than main game, ****** poor excuses for romances and relationships thats get owned by a  PS2  JRPG about High school kids. A morality system that boil down human morality  to the red pill or the blue bill. Out of all this...  Breathing masks  and the fact that it looked like a "Saturday  Morning Cartoon"  is what broke the experience for  you.... So if there helmets all those glaring issues would just disappear and become  moot because the biggest flaw in your eyes was...breathing mask. 

So all everything just listed which really do hurt Mass Effect from being an experience don't matter because the only thing that matters is that it  doesn't look like a "Saturday Morning Cartoon"

You missed the two versions of "Disappointment with ME2" threads, yeah?  I think there were at least two.  A few of us were involved in that and on both sides.

In any case, the breathing masks are ill-fitting to every scene we've witnessed so far.  Wait for someone to tell me it's not me who's writing the story......obviously because I said I did. *sigh*

A disconnect is bound to happen when you people running around with breathing masks while fighting combatants who look like they came prepared to fight as exemplified in LOTSB.  I mean, if we're worried about facial expressions why was Shepard forced into a helmet on missions like the derelict Reaper, the Collector Ship, LOTSB, and the Migrant Fleet when Miranda, Jacob, and Jack don't need to be covered from head to toe in those very same areas?  Shepard's supposed to be the bigger badass, but he/she gets completely covered without me being able to see his or her facial expressions.

[sponge56]

brainless78 wrote...


Okay then, would you be able to watch the whole Lord of the Ring trilogy while having nyancat as a background sound? No? Man, you're taking this waaaay too seriously.

Seriously though, as stated before, some have a lower "suspension of disbelief" threshold than others. It's just a fact of life.

Thats an extreme exageration though, breathing masks instead of helmets does not equate to large internet memes invading the screen for no apparent reason. To give you an example, why dont people moan in star wars when ships fly around making sound in space and lazers make noises in space?  Why isnt that an immersion breaker then?  Its a sci-fi, but I doubt you start yelling at star wars for not being scientificaly accurate

[DonutsDealer]

There is only one forgotten planet where a full sealed suit is necessary, just one and they aren't gonna make new suits and helmets for one damn irrelevant and easily forgettable side mission. In all the other places we visit aren't vacuum.

-Collector ship: those cockroaches were flying, and as far as I know to fly like that you need an atmosphere. The air could be toxic or not enough oxygen, so the use of the breather is logical.

-Heretic station: it is said that there is little air, thus exist atmosphere. So the crew says: "hey, there is not enough oxygen. let's use breathers". Logical the use of breathers.

-Derelict reaper: it was in an atmosphere I think (I saw a orange sky and dust stuff), thus they only need breathers (see other points)

-Shadow Broker ship: it was in Hagalaz atmosphere, there was little air so they only need breathers.

-Quarian ships: there is a reason why Tali calls the quarentine (dunno if spelled correctly), and is to sterilize the ship and the crew, but hey, what happens if someone has a cough? Well, let's just use breathers so they can't send us viruses.

So there is no real need for the use of helmets in ME2 besides that one side mission. Hell, I'm even expecting someone to complain about why aren't we wearing anti-radiation suits on Tuchanka

[Fenris_13]

Helmet or no helmet. I can deal with it.

[realguile]

Andorfiend wrote...

stuff.

it's a damn video game.  This **** ain't sex nor should it cause pain on par with passing a kidney stone. Before this game releases some of you should make sure all sharp objects and firerarms are out of your damn house cause y'all take this stuff too damn seriously.

IT'S. A. VIDEO. GAME.

[felipejiraya]

DonutsDealer wrote...

So there is no real need for the use of helmets in ME2 besides that one side mission. Hell, I'm even expecting someone to complain about why aren't we wearing anti-radiation suits on Tuchanka

YEAH! THAT'S INSANE!

WHY THE HELL THEY AREN'T WEARING ANTI-RADIATION SUITS IN A PLANET WITH A NUCLEAR WINTER?????????????

BIOWARE YOU AND YOUR FANTASY SCI-FI GAMES SUCK!

[Andorfiend]

Chris Priestly wrote...

That being said, the dev team looks at issues like this and makes judgements. They listen to fans and, when possible, work to accomodate as many fans as possible. It is listening to them like this that has created things like helmet toggles to try to accomodate a wide variety of interests. There are reasons to have breathing masks in game. And I don't mean "the team was too lazy to make helmets" or whatever, but some fine story based reasons (like one area where "someone" has vented the atmosphere out of a room you are passing through). The team has spent a lot of time making facial animations and dialogs that we want you to see faces for. Now, as I mentioned, toggles, situations where masks are appropriate, etc so sometimes you will see a breathing mask. Hopefully people will look at it and eitehr accept it, or at worst begrudgingly understand why they were used.

Well, 'we wanted you to see their expressions' better than 'we liked it, so sod off'.

As an excuse however it kind of runs flat at the very first scene from ME 2, where Joker had a perfectly clear ME field helmet on, which did encompass his whole head.

And honestly that's kind of all you need. You can, in point of fact, have a spandex spacesuit. If Jokers t-shirt had somehow supplied breathing counter-pressure then it would have been a viable, short term survival strategy. For all the ME 2 characters all you would have needed to do was show an ME field bubble around their heads, and cover their chests and you would have had perfectly plausible space suits. Heck I'll even give Jack a pass, if her biotics are so good she can take heavy mech fire while wearing tats then I'll assume she can supply her own counter-pressure.

But fail to supply pressure to the whole head and bad things happen to your ears and eyes. Not pretty.

[aksoileau]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I should start off by saying to Terror K that I am sorry for belittling his concern (in the last thread). While I personally find people who get upset over seemly minor details to be overreacting, that doesn't give me the right to make light of his concern. He is concerned because, for him at least, it is an immersion breaker and anything that breaks our players immersion in the games is taken seriously by the dev team. I only said it in that manner as I know Terror has been here a long time and I thought, from prior conversations, we had a certain raport between us. Obviouly I misjudged the situation and my phrasing was uncalled for.

That being said, the dev team looks at issues like this and makes judgements. They listen to fans and, when possible, work to accomodate as many fans as possible. It is listening to them like this that has created things like helmet toggles to try to accomodate a wide variety of interests. There are reasons to have breathing masks in game. And I don't mean "the team was too lazy to make helmets" or whatever, but some fine story based reasons (like one area where "someone" has vented the atmosphere out of a room you are passing through). The team has spent a lot of time making facial animations and dialogs that we want you to see faces for. Now, as I mentioned, toggles, situations where masks are appropriate, etc so sometimes you will see a breathing mask. Hopefully people will look at it and eitehr accept it, or at worst begrudgingly understand why they were used.

I preferred the "deal with it" approach, but I guess we have to take the high road every once in awhile.

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not having acess to helmets and fighting in atmosphere is quite different from having acess to helmets and not wearing them while fighting in space.

Except that in NO BioWare game, EVER, did you ever fight in space. Unless you don't know what space means either.

I'm sure if those peopel were offered proper protection, they'd turn it down.
And of course, a lot of those conflict we 're talking about are guerilla warfare where the object is to blend in with the populace. Which kinda doesn't work for Sheppard.

Guerilla? Blending with the populace? Are you kidding me?

I have yet to see any soldier from Africa with a decent vest. Hell, actually show me some with helmets and not berets.

You know who fought for Mubarak? His Presidential Guard. You'd think that they'd be the better equipped. Were they wearing vests? I don't think so.

How many North Korean soldiers do you see with helmets?

Hell, Garrus has to walk around with a broken armor. Unless you spare usable helmets around the Normandy, don't talk about offering resources.

They don't have to be standardized to be protective. Mercenaries often purchase their own gear - depending on funds available. Tehy might wear different flack/kelvar jackets or use different guns, but they go around naked.

ACTUAL Mercenaries, not from HOLLYWOOD:





That glorious, glorious Juventus outfit. But I guess that they don't go around naked.

Armies barely have money to issue the most basic protection to soldiers in rich western countries, and you think that mercenaries are fully equipped and have protection?

In that specific part, probably. However, jumping from the derelict reaper to the Normandy trough space..you kinda fly trough space..ya know..

You don't, because both ships have ME fields, but, let's play along.

What do you think would happen? You'd feel sudden discomfort, and then be alright once you get to the Normandy within seconds, if that. That's all.

Ships ME field does not equal air bubble. Read what a ME field does. Holding air is not in the description.

There's a different, unexplaind bluish field for that, and it is deeper inside the ship. When Shep and team exist the shuttle, they are exposed. Tehy walk to the force field or whatever it is.

Well, I'll be damned. I was certain that there was something holding all these Collectors from flying whenever the door to the the shuttle station opened. Like, you know, artificial gravity or other safeguards.

There's a different, unexplaind bluish field for that, and it is deeper inside the ship.  

I'm sorry, Google Translate couldn't recognize the language. Try again.

Modifié par Phaedon, 29 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[DarkPsylocke26]

What is wrong with Breathing Masks?

[nitefyre410]

Xeranx wrote...
*snip*





You missed the two versions of "Disappointment with ME2" threads, yeah?  I think there were at least two.  A few of us were involved in that and on both sides.

In any case, the breathing masks are ill-fitting to every scene we've witnessed so far.  Wait for someone to tell me it's not me who's writing the story......obviously because I said I did. *sigh*

A disconnect is bound to happen when you people running around with breathing masks while fighting combatants who look like they came prepared to fight as exemplified in LOTSB.  I mean, if we're worried about facial expressions why was Shepard forced into a helmet on missions like the derelict Reaper, the Collector Ship, LOTSB, and the Migrant Fleet when Miranda, Jacob, and Jack don't need to be covered from head to toe in those very same areas?  Shepard's supposed to be the bigger badass, but he/she gets completely covered without me being able to see his or her facial expressions.

Yeah unfortunetly I did  but I would say I wasn't dissappoint that was more just analaysis after the fact  and seeing would could be done better...  Like after your team wins... winning is good but you go back the film watch tape  and see what needs improvement. .. to make a sport analogy.


I think  one has to take  the medium which the story is being told into account.   Mass Effect is a video game as visiual medium and there  are sublty things  in  communcation between to two characters, facial epressions etc that  hold more wieght  and create more impact that would  you lose when everyone face is covered with a helmet.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 29 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[Bostur]

Chris Priestly wrote...

That being said, the dev team looks at issues like this and makes judgements. They listen to fans and, when possible, work to accomodate as many fans as possible. It is listening to them like this that has created things like helmet toggles to try to accomodate a wide variety of interests. There are reasons to have breathing masks in game. And I don't mean "the team was too lazy to make helmets" or whatever, but some fine story based reasons (like one area where "someone" has vented the atmosphere out of a room you are passing through). The team has spent a lot of time making facial animations and dialogs that we want you to see faces for. Now, as I mentioned, toggles, situations where masks are appropriate, etc so sometimes you will see a breathing mask. Hopefully people will look at it and eitehr accept it, or at worst begrudgingly understand why they were used.

Much more specific and informative than your previous posts, thanks.

Using breathing masks because it makes sense in a specific context is much better than the old style where you used breathing masks indiscriminately to show the faces of the characters.

In ME2 I thought it made sense that Joker had a breathing mask due to a sudden hull breach. He probably didn't have a helmet within reach. It did not make sense that certain team members always used breathing masks in hostile atmospheres.


And to add to Terror K's excellent posts. I agree that the breathing masks were simply a symptom of several immersion-breaking elements in how the characters looked in ME2. For me it's not a matter of realism but one of consistency and aesthetics. When Miranda was posing in impractical garbs in a combat situation, or Shepard going to a nightclub in full body armor, even attempting to drink with a helmet, those aren't cases of breaking realism but cases of inconsistency and loss of immersion. It made me feel like the game didn't care about the setting it had established.
ME1 was excellent at being consistent even though it seems the budget for animations and acting was lower. ME1 was good at hiding the seams, in ME2 it sometimes seems the seams was showcased instead of hidden. It doesn't take a huge budget or extreme technology to make a believable world, its a matter of working with what you got.

Modifié par Bostur, 29 décembre 2011 - 05:06 .

[Phaedon]

Terror_K wrote...

It's not just the breathing masks. They're merely a symptom of another issue and not directly the problem at all. Breathing masks are merely a wound on Mass Effect, but they're not the cause of the damage.

And it doesn't matter how good the writing, charaterisation, romances or any other such factors are if the setting you're using doesn't even hold water in the first place. You can have a masterpiece from a technical standpoint, but if it's filled with massive logic holes that crack at the very fabric of the heart of the story itself, it's all for nought.

Simply put: it doesn't matter how well made the rest of the table is if the legs can't hold it up.

To me I got into Mass Effect originally because it was an experience more than a game and because it was a well thought out, tight, sci-fi universe I could really sink my teeth into.

Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)



If you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

[Raizo]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I should start off by saying to Terror K that I am sorry for belittling his concern (in the last thread). While I personally find people who get upset over seemly minor details to be overreacting, that doesn't give me the right to make light of his concern. He is concerned because, for him at least, it is an immersion breaker and anything that breaks our players immersion in the games is taken seriously by the dev team. I only said it in that manner as I know Terror has been here a long time and I thought, from prior conversations, we had a certain raport between us. Obviouly I misjudged the situation and my phrasing was uncalled for.

That being said, the dev team looks at issues like this and makes judgements. They listen to fans and, when possible, work to accomodate as many fans as possible. It is listening to them like this that has created things like helmet toggles to try to accomodate a wide variety of interests. There are reasons to have breathing masks in game. And I don't mean "the team was too lazy to make helmets" or whatever, but some fine story based reasons (like one area where "someone" has vented the atmosphere out of a room you are passing through). The team has spent a lot of time making facial animations and dialogs that we want you to see faces for. Now, as I mentioned, toggles, situations where masks are appropriate, etc so sometimes you will see a breathing mask. Hopefully people will look at it and eitehr accept it, or at worst begrudgingly understand why they were used.

This should have been your post in the original thread. Thanks for the explanation. Personally I'm not a big fan of the breathing masks myself but in the grander scheme of things there the return of the 'breathings masks' is a small concern for me when I think about all the other areas where ME3 may potentially fall short of my expectattions. My main issue with the return of the breathings masks is that I remember all the anti breathing mask topics on the ME2 boards and I immediatly assumed the worse, that the ME3 developers do 'Not' pay attention to the fan base and that they don't really care about what we want, obviously you could see why that would make a lot of us upset.

[Andorfiend]

Phaedon wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

It's not just the breathing masks. They're merely a symptom of another issue and not directly the problem at all. Breathing masks are merely a wound on Mass Effect, but they're not the cause of the damage.

And it doesn't matter how good the writing, charaterisation, romances or any other such factors are if the setting you're using doesn't even hold water in the first place. You can have a masterpiece from a technical standpoint, but if it's filled with massive logic holes that crack at the very fabric of the heart of the story itself, it's all for nought.

Simply put: it doesn't matter how well made the rest of the table is if the legs can't hold it up.

To me I got into Mass Effect originally because it was an experience more than a game and because it was a well thought out, tight, sci-fi universe I could really sink my teeth into.

Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)



If you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that evolution is poor science?

[Ravensword]

Andorfiend wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

It's not just the breathing masks. They're merely a symptom of another issue and not directly the problem at all. Breathing masks are merely a wound on Mass Effect, but they're not the cause of the damage.

And it doesn't matter how good the writing, charaterisation, romances or any other such factors are if the setting you're using doesn't even hold water in the first place. You can have a masterpiece from a technical standpoint, but if it's filled with massive logic holes that crack at the very fabric of the heart of the story itself, it's all for nought.

Simply put: it doesn't matter how well made the rest of the table is if the legs can't hold it up.

To me I got into Mass Effect originally because it was an experience more than a game and because it was a well thought out, tight, sci-fi universe I could really sink my teeth into.

Omni-gel,
Indoctrination,
Dragon's Teeth,
Species evolution,
Thermal Sinks (Also Known as Tactical Nightmares),
Mass modification,
An element with NO protons,
FTL,
Mass Relays,
Geth Barriers with no projectors (It's funny, because at least the omni-blades make sense)



If you had seen any ME footage, ever, and thought that this was to be hardcore sci-fi material, you are either scientifically illiterate or hypocritical. 

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that evolution is poor science?

Wow, dude. My IQ just dropped.

[Someone With Mass]

I'm personally far more annoyed by the Mary Sue genes the humans have in Mass Effect. Being more diverse and all that crap.

[Ravensword]

AwesomeName wrote...

Andorfiend wrote..

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that evolution is poor science?

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that most of the advanced species in the ME universe have evolved towards, out of SHEER AND UTTER CHANCE, a general humanoid form.  That's a pretty daft thing.

Every piece of sci-fi space opera out there.

[aksoileau]

Terror_K wrote...

It's not just the breathing masks. They're merely a symptom of another issue and not directly the problem at all. Breathing masks are merely a wound on Mass Effect, but they're not the cause of the damage.

And it doesn't matter how good the writing, charaterisation, romances or any other such factors are if the setting you're using doesn't even hold water in the first place. You can have a masterpiece from a technical standpoint, but if it's filled with massive logic holes that crack at the very fabric of the heart of the story itself, it's all for nought.

Simply put: it doesn't matter how well made the rest of the table is if the legs can't hold it up.

Simply put: No.  For the past two years you have systematically nitpicked every minor detail since ME2 came out.  Your posts are asinine and your "dealbreakers" about the games are petty.  And your metaphors are terrible.  You're saying that a breathing mask just kills the writing, characterization, and romances?  Get a grip!

[Andorfiend]

realguile wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

stuff.

it's a damn video game.  This **** ain't sex nor should it cause pain on par with passing a kidney stone. Before this game releases some of you should make sure all sharp objects and firerarms are out of your damn house cause y'all take this stuff too damn seriously.

IT'S. A. VIDEO. GAME.

So what? What is it about video games that means they get a free pass?

No one gives a serious sf fan grief for asking a book author a technical question. Hell they have massive conventions for basically that purpose. (Well, that, and merchandising.)

You know what the difference between a book and a video game is? A book cost me about $8 dollars and lasts 4-8 hours. A game costs me $50 dollars and might be good for hundreds of hours if it has good replay value.

A good game is a better way to spend my entertainment dollars than all but the best books. And for those best books the extra value is not becuase they take longer to read, but because I get to spend more time thinking about it. Heck, that's why I like Orson Scott Card, whenever I finish one of his books I have to sit down and spend an hour figuring out why I disagree with his thesis.

On the other hand a crap game, a 5-10 hour playthrough with no replay value, is a ****** poor way for me to spend my money.

Why should I not try to give feedback to a game producer, in hope that they will reward me with better value for my money?

Right now I'm replaying ME 1. And I have two things detracting from my gameplay experience. One is that everyone lives deep in uncanny valley. That's a technical issue and they get a pass on that, since the graphics were pretty good at the time of production. The other is how very stupid the council is. That is a writing concern, and made worse by the many hours of thought and discussion I've put into this game. But those many hours of thought and discussion were a reward for dollars well spent, so instead of getting mad, I try to think of how BW can do better next time, and write that up as feedback so that they will make the next game closer to my ideal.

It didn't work, but hey, hope springs eternal, yes?